Why do you suppose that ALL of the upper end Campagnolo 11 shifters are EPS? This tells me that those who use EPS do not liked them. Or perhaps those who bought the 11 speed were so satisfied with them that they don't want to upgrade to the 12 speed levers.

Is this the beginning of the end for the factories making money simply by putting more gears? Not that there haven't been great improvements in the mechanical groups, but their belief that people are simply buying new groups because of the increase in speeds appears to have run its course. 13 speeds simply aren't selling. And no one seems to be interested in paying a premium for an electronic shifting system that really adds nothing to your cycling experience.

I am the first one to admit that Di2 (and for all I know, EPS) shift better.. But certainly not enough better than manual to pay the extra expense and continued maintenance.

Now it is looking like the component companies have overstepped their boundaries and finally people are feeling like they are being considered stupid asses by these companies. So WHAT do the component companies do now?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 5:06:34 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Why do you suppose that ALL of the upper end Campagnolo 11 shifters are EPS? This tells me that those who use EPS do not liked them. Or perhaps those who bought the 11 speed were so satisfied with them that they don't want to upgrade to the 12 speed levers.
>
> Is this the beginning of the end for the factories making money simply by putting more gears? Not that there haven't been great improvements in the mechanical groups, but their belief that people are simply buying new groups because of the increase in speeds appears to have run its course. 13 speeds simply aren't selling. And no one seems to be interested in paying a premium for an electronic shifting system that really adds nothing to your cycling experience.
>
> I am the first one to admit that Di2 (and for all I know, EPS) shift better. But certainly not enough better than manual to pay the extra expense and continued maintenance.
>
> Now it is looking like the component companies have overstepped their boundaries and finally people are feeling like they are being considered stupid asses by these companies. So WHAT do the component companies do now?

Not listen to you.

Lou

On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 9:00:33 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 5:06:34 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Why do you suppose that ALL of the upper end Campagnolo 11 shifters are EPS? This tells me that those who use EPS do not liked them. Or perhaps those who bought the 11 speed were so satisfied with them that they don't want to upgrade to the 12 speed levers.
> >
> > Is this the beginning of the end for the factories making money simply by putting more gears? Not that there haven't been great improvements in the mechanical groups, but their belief that people are simply buying new groups because of the increase in speeds appears to have run its course. 13 speeds simply aren't selling. And no one seems to be interested in paying a premium for an electronic shifting system that really adds nothing to your cycling experience.
> >
> > I am the first one to admit that Di2 (and for all I know, EPS) shift better. But certainly not enough better than manual to pay the extra expense and continued maintenance.
> >
> > Now it is looking like the component companies have overstepped their boundaries and finally people are feeling like they are being considered stupid asses by these companies. So WHAT do the component companies do now?
> Not listen to you.

Why, no answers? Lou, I respect your opinions but you have to make them public.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 6:03:04 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 9:00:33 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 5:06:34 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > Why do you suppose that ALL of the upper end Campagnolo 11 shifters are EPS? This tells me that those who use EPS do not liked them. Or perhaps those who bought the 11 speed were so satisfied with them that they don't want to upgrade to the 12 speed levers.
> > >
> > > Is this the beginning of the end for the factories making money simply by putting more gears? Not that there haven't been great improvements in the mechanical groups, but their belief that people are simply buying new groups because of the increase in speeds appears to have run its course. 13 speeds simply aren't selling. And no one seems to be interested in paying a premium for an electronic shifting system that really adds nothing to your cycling experience.
> > >
> > > I am the first one to admit that Di2 (and for all I know, EPS) shift better. But certainly not enough better than manual to pay the extra expense and continued maintenance.
> > >
> > > Now it is looking like the component companies have overstepped their boundaries and finally people are feeling like they are being considered stupid asses by these companies. So WHAT do the component companies do now?
> > Not listen to you.
> Why, no answers? Lou, I respect your opinions but you have to make them public.

What the hell does:
‘Why do you suppose that ALL of the upper end Campagnolo 11 shifters are EPS? ‘ mean?
Di2 and EPS is here to stay. The only disadvantage now is the price. 12 speed is also the default for the higher end gruppo’s. 13 speed will become default for single chainring. So Campy, Shimano and Sram won’t listen to you and keep on doing what theyare doing.

Lou

On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 9:14:46 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 6:03:04 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 9:00:33 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 5:06:34 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > Why do you suppose that ALL of the upper end Campagnolo 11 shifters are EPS? This tells me that those who use EPS do not liked them. Or perhaps those who bought the 11 speed were so satisfied with them that they don't want to upgrade to the 12 speed levers.
> > > >
> > > > Is this the beginning of the end for the factories making money simply by putting more gears? Not that there haven't been great improvements in the mechanical groups, but their belief that people are simply buying new groups because of the increase in speeds appears to have run its course. 13 speeds simply aren't selling. And no one seems to be interested in paying a premium for an electronic shifting system that really adds nothing to your cycling experience.
> > > >
> > > > I am the first one to admit that Di2 (and for all I know, EPS) shift better. But certainly not enough better than manual to pay the extra expense and continued maintenance.
> > > >
> > > > Now it is looking like the component companies have overstepped their boundaries and finally people are feeling like they are being considered stupid asses by these companies. So WHAT do the component companies do now?
> > > Not listen to you.
> > Why, no answers? Lou, I respect your opinions but you have to make them public.
> What the hell does:
> ‘Why do you suppose that ALL of the upper end Campagnolo 11 shifters are EPS? ‘ mean?
> Di2 and EPS is here to stay. The only disadvantage now is the price. 12 speed is also the default for the higher end gruppo’s. 13 speed will become default for single chainring. So Campy, Shimano and Sram won’t listen to you and keep on doing what theyare doing.
>
> Lou

Forgive me it I didn't make that clear. Look on Ebay under 11 speed Campagnolo shifters and you cannot find upper end (Chorus or higher) levers that aren't EPS. What this suggests to me is that what we are seeing isn't components from private owners but the discards from racing teams that have been upgraded to 12 speed.

There clearly aren't any 11 speed Campagnolo owners that are willing to upgrade so manual levers aren't available.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 10:06:34 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Why do you suppose that ALL of the upper end Campagnolo 11 shifters are EPS? This tells me that those who use EPS do not liked them. Or perhaps those who bought the 11 speed were so satisfied with them that they don't want to upgrade to the 12 speed levers.
>
> Is this the beginning of the end for the factories making money simply by putting more gears? Not that there haven't been great improvements in the mechanical groups, but their belief that people are simply buying new groups because of the increase in speeds appears to have run its course. 13 speeds simply aren't selling. And no one seems to be interested in paying a premium for an electronic shifting system that really adds nothing to your cycling experience.
>
> I am the first one to admit that Di2 (and for all I know, EPS) shift better. But certainly not enough better than manual to pay the extra expense and continued maintenance.
>

Hmmmmmm. Our Tommy boy claims he is the first one to say electronic shifts better than mechanical. Amazing that our Tommy boy says what has been said by almost everyone who has used electronic for the past 12 years. As for electronic not being enough better than mechanical to justify the extra cost and mythical, nonsensical, made up, lie, of extra continued maintenance, apparently the buying public and the bike manufacturers supplying them, disagree. Because electronic groups are being sold. Unlike Tommy the all knowing genius, in his own mind anyway, I do not claim to know which sells more or less. All I know is there are sales for both. Apparently enough to allow bike manufacturers to make and distribute both.

Tommy boy, I understand you did not complete school. Or maybe even attend any schools. But there is this economic theory, model, called supply and demand. If there is demand, then someone will supply it. And with the right price adjustments, everything stays balanced. Therefore, all of the mechanical and electronic group people end up with the group they want.

> Now it is looking like the component companies have overstepped their boundaries and finally people are feeling like they are being considered stupid asses by these companies. So WHAT do the component companies do now?