By groups, with firearms.

https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html

The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 6:16:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> By groups, with firearms.
>
> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html
>
> The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.

This actually may be much worse since it would be unlikely that people would be imprisoned with prisons full. Is it fair? Hardly, but prosecutors look at reality and not whether it is fair or not.

On 7/9/2022 1:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 6:16:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> By groups, with firearms.
>>
>> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html
>>
>> The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.
>
> This actually may be much worse since it would be unlikely that people would be imprisoned with prisons full. Is it fair? Hardly, but prosecutors look at reality and not whether it is fair or not.
>

Jail and prison populations are low and far below capacity
and have been for two years. We've discussed this here
previously.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 1:11:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/9/2022 1:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 6:16:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> By groups, with firearms.
> >>
> >> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html
> >>
> >> The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.
> >
> > This actually may be much worse since it would be unlikely that people would be imprisoned with prisons full. Is it fair? Hardly, but prosecutors look at reality and not whether it is fair or not.
> >
> Jail and prison populations are low and far below capacity
> and have been for two years. We've discussed this here
> previously.

Well, I don't know where you got your figures. I got mine from my cousin who was a prison guard. There was a MASSIVE incarceration rate until 2009 and since then it has been shrinking VERY modestly at about 1% per year and it will not arrive at a 50% reduction until 2091. There may have been a lessening of conviction rates simply because of overcrowding but when you have guards too busy to watch people under suicide watch that tells you something..

On 7/9/2022 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 1:11:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/9/2022 1:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 6:16:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> By groups, with firearms.
>>>>
>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html
>>>>
>>>> The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.
>>>
>>> This actually may be much worse since it would be unlikely that people would be imprisoned with prisons full. Is it fair? Hardly, but prosecutors look at reality and not whether it is fair or not.
>>>
>> Jail and prison populations are low and far below capacity
>> and have been for two years. We've discussed this here
>> previously.
>
> Well, I don't know where you got your figures. I got mine from my cousin who was a prison guard. There was a MASSIVE incarceration rate until 2009 and since then it has been shrinking VERY modestly at about 1% per year and it will not arrive at a 50% reduction until 2091. There may have been a lessening of conviction rates simply because of overcrowding but when you have guards too busy to watch people under suicide watch that tells you something.
>

https://trends.vera.org/state/CA

There are 50 State prison systems and 3000 ish county jail
systems and I'm sure they vary in capacity and population
over time. But generally, populations have dropped in the
past few years.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:08:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/9/2022 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 1:11:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 7/9/2022 1:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 6:16:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> By groups, with firearms.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html
>>>>>
>>>>> The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.
>>>>
>>>> This actually may be much worse since it would be unlikely that people would be imprisoned with prisons full. Is it fair? Hardly, but prosecutors look at reality and not whether it is fair or not.
>>>>
>>> Jail and prison populations are low and far below capacity
>>> and have been for two years. We've discussed this here
>>> previously.
>>
>> Well, I don't know where you got your figures. I got mine from my cousin who was a prison guard. There was a MASSIVE incarceration rate until 2009 and since then it has been shrinking VERY modestly at about 1% per year and it will not arrive at a 50% reduction until 2091. There may have been a lessening of conviction rates simply because of overcrowding but when you have guards too busy to watch people under suicide watch that tells you something.
>>
>
>
>https://trends.vera.org/state/CA
>
>There are 50 State prison systems and 3000 ish county jail
>systems and I'm sure they vary in capacity and population
>over time. But generally, populations have dropped in the
>past few years.

Ah but... is this because of a decrease in crime? Or due to much more
lenient penalization of those who commit crimes?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 05:12:00 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Ah but... is this because of a decrease in crime? Or due to much more
>lenient penalization of those who commit crimes?

Neither. As I understand it, the US Supreme Court ruled in 2009 that
prisons were to be limited to 137.5% of designed capacity:
<https://www.ppic.org/publication/californias-prison-population/>
One "solution" was to temporarily house prisoners outside of
California in privately operated prisons, which makes a mess of many
prison population statistics. My guess(tm) is an increase (not
decrease) in prison population was caused by returning these prisoners
to California:
"By June 2019, all of the prisoners formerly housed out of state more
than 10,000 in 2011 had been returned to facilities in California."

<https://rbgg.com/news/coleman-plata-supreme-court/> (2011)
"During the 20 year period that these cases have been litigated, the
federal courts have issued more than 70 orders that the state has
ignored or violated."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:24:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 05:12:00 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Ah but... is this because of a decrease in crime? Or due to much more
>>lenient penalization of those who commit crimes?
>
>Neither. As I understand it, the US Supreme Court ruled in 2009 that
>prisons were to be limited to 137.5% of designed capacity:
><https://www.ppic.org/publication/californias-prison-population/>
>One "solution" was to temporarily house prisoners outside of
>California in privately operated prisons, which makes a mess of many
>prison population statistics. My guess(tm) is an increase (not
>decrease) in prison population was caused by returning these prisoners
>to California:
>"By June 2019, all of the prisoners formerly housed out of state more
>than 10,000 in 2011 had been returned to facilities in California."
>
><https://rbgg.com/news/coleman-plata-supreme-court/> (2011)
>"During the 20 year period that these cases have been litigated, the
>federal courts have issued more than 70 orders that the state has
>ignored or violated."

The solution would be "Prison Farms". With proper management they
could be essentially self supporting and in fact might even contribute
a tiny bit to the State budget.

But, perhaps not in California... I remember reading, years ago an
article stating that prisoners in California state prisons had sued
the State claiming "cruel and unusual punishment". You see, the only
TV's in the prisons were black and white. The article said that they
won their case (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 7/9/2022 5:12 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:08:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/9/2022 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 1:11:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 7/9/2022 1:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 6:16:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> By groups, with firearms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.
>>>>>
>>>>> This actually may be much worse since it would be unlikely that people would be imprisoned with prisons full. Is it fair? Hardly, but prosecutors look at reality and not whether it is fair or not.
>>>>>
>>>> Jail and prison populations are low and far below capacity
>>>> and have been for two years. We've discussed this here
>>>> previously.
>>>
>>> Well, I don't know where you got your figures. I got mine from my cousin who was a prison guard. There was a MASSIVE incarceration rate until 2009 and since then it has been shrinking VERY modestly at about 1% per year and it will not arrive at a 50% reduction until 2091. There may have been a lessening of conviction rates simply because of overcrowding but when you have guards too busy to watch people under suicide watch that tells you something.
>>>
>>
>>
>> https://trends.vera.org/state/CA
>>
>> There are 50 State prison systems and 3000 ish county jail
>> systems and I'm sure they vary in capacity and population
>> over time. But generally, populations have dropped in the
>> past few years.
>
> Ah but... is this because of a decrease in crime? Or due to much more
> lenient penalization of those who commit crimes?
>
Theorize all you like but the fact remains there is plenty
of capacity.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 7/9/2022 7:14 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:24:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 05:12:00 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ah but... is this because of a decrease in crime? Or due to much more
>>> lenient penalization of those who commit crimes?
>>
>> Neither. As I understand it, the US Supreme Court ruled in 2009 that
>> prisons were to be limited to 137.5% of designed capacity:
>> <https://www.ppic.org/publication/californias-prison-population/>
>> One "solution" was to temporarily house prisoners outside of
>> California in privately operated prisons, which makes a mess of many
>> prison population statistics. My guess(tm) is an increase (not
>> decrease) in prison population was caused by returning these prisoners
>> to California:
>> "By June 2019, all of the prisoners formerly housed out of state more
>> than 10,000 in 2011 had been returned to facilities in California."
>>
>> <https://rbgg.com/news/coleman-plata-supreme-court/> (2011)
>> "During the 20 year period that these cases have been litigated, the
>> federal courts have issued more than 70 orders that the state has
>> ignored or violated."
>
> The solution would be "Prison Farms". With proper management they
> could be essentially self supporting and in fact might even contribute
> a tiny bit to the State budget.
>
> But, perhaps not in California... I remember reading, years ago an
> article stating that prisoners in California state prisons had sued
> the State claiming "cruel and unusual punishment". You see, the only
> TV's in the prisons were black and white. The article said that they
> won their case (:-)
>

While I'm sure there were/are excesses, in my experience any
work offered gets more volunteers than needed. And regular
inmate work is paid- at a ridiculously low rate but then
again we didn't pay for rent, food, transportation etc
either so that was much appreciated as well.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 6:42:17 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/9/2022 5:12 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:08:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/9/2022 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 1:11:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 7/9/2022 1:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 6:16:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> By groups, with firearms.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This actually may be much worse since it would be unlikely that people would be imprisoned with prisons full. Is it fair? Hardly, but prosecutors look at reality and not whether it is fair or not.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Jail and prison populations are low and far below capacity
> >>>> and have been for two years. We've discussed this here
> >>>> previously.
> >>>
> >>> Well, I don't know where you got your figures. I got mine from my cousin who was a prison guard. There was a MASSIVE incarceration rate until 2009 and since then it has been shrinking VERY modestly at about 1% per year and it will not arrive at a 50% reduction until 2091. There may have been a lessening of conviction rates simply because of overcrowding but when you have guards too busy to watch people under suicide watch that tells you something.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> https://trends.vera.org/state/CA
> >>
> >> There are 50 State prison systems and 3000 ish county jail
> >> systems and I'm sure they vary in capacity and population
> >> over time. But generally, populations have dropped in the
> >> past few years.
> >
> > Ah but... is this because of a decrease in crime? Or due to much more
> > lenient penalization of those who commit crimes?
> >
> Theorize all you like but the fact remains there is plenty
> of capacity.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/u-s-prison-population-trends-massive-buildup-and-modest-decline/ This article shows which states have increased incarceration and which have lost. In total there has only been a loss of 7% since a peak of a million and a half people since 2009. Most of these released were drug offenders. I have pretty much given up on those as well. If you want to murder yourself, go right ahead.

On 7/10/2022 10:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 6:42:17 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/9/2022 5:12 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:08:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/9/2022 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 1:11:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/9/2022 1:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 6:16:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> By groups, with firearms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This actually may be much worse since it would be unlikely that people would be imprisoned with prisons full. Is it fair? Hardly, but prosecutors look at reality and not whether it is fair or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jail and prison populations are low and far below capacity
>>>>>> and have been for two years. We've discussed this here
>>>>>> previously.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I don't know where you got your figures. I got mine from my cousin who was a prison guard. There was a MASSIVE incarceration rate until 2009 and since then it has been shrinking VERY modestly at about 1% per year and it will not arrive at a 50% reduction until 2091. There may have been a lessening of conviction rates simply because of overcrowding but when you have guards too busy to watch people under suicide watch that tells you something.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://trends.vera.org/state/CA
>>>>
>>>> There are 50 State prison systems and 3000 ish county jail
>>>> systems and I'm sure they vary in capacity and population
>>>> over time. But generally, populations have dropped in the
>>>> past few years.
>>>
>>> Ah but... is this because of a decrease in crime? Or due to much more
>>> lenient penalization of those who commit crimes?
>>>
>> Theorize all you like but the fact remains there is plenty
>> of capacity.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/u-s-prison-population-trends-massive-buildup-and-modest-decline/ This article shows which states have increased incarceration and which have lost. In total there has only been a loss of 7% since a peak of a million and a half people since 2009. Most of these released were drug offenders. I have pretty much given up on those as well. If you want to murder yourself, go right ahead.
>

I don't suppose there would be much dissent for a felony
murder charge for supplying/injecting fatal drug overdoses.

But generally the hundred years plus of the worldwide Heroin
ban has been a bust. It's cheaper, more pure, with a
distribution system much more advanced and efficient than,
say, national welfare programs or vaccine distribution
schemes and anyone can get delivery faster than for a pizza.
This is not a success. And not for any lack of effort or
expense either.

And that's not a secret either. Ludwig non Mises worked it
out a priori 85 years ago:

"If you give the government the right to determine the
consumption of the human body, to determine whether one
should smoke or not smoke, drink or not drink, there is no
good reply you can give to people who say, More important
than the body is the mind and the soul, and man hurts
himself much more by reading bad books, by listening to bad
music and looking at bad movies. Therefore it is the duty of
the government to prevent people from committing those
faults. And, as you know, for many hundreds of years
governments and authorities believed that it was their duty."
— Ludwig Von Mises

As an aside, Mr Trump's forceful push to pass the First Step
Act gets no credit whatsoever. Certainly not from certain
prominent people who as Senators wrote the long-sentence
drug (esp. crack) laws:

http://www.capecharlesmirror.com/news/first-woman-released-under-the-first-step-act/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 11:42:42 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/10/2022 10:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 6:42:17 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 7/9/2022 5:12 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 09 Jul 2022 16:08:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/9/2022 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 1:11:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/9/2022 1:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 6:16:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> By groups, with firearms.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/07/men-who-were-accused-of-robbing-bicyclists-in-the-loop-get-probation-in-plea-deals.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The perps are out free to further develop their mugging skills.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This actually may be much worse since it would be unlikely that people would be imprisoned with prisons full. Is it fair? Hardly, but prosecutors look at reality and not whether it is fair or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jail and prison populations are low and far below capacity
>>>>>>> and have been for two years. We've discussed this here
>>>>>>> previously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I don't know where you got your figures. I got mine from my cousin who was a prison guard. There was a MASSIVE incarceration rate until 2009 and since then it has been shrinking VERY modestly at about 1% per year and it will not arrive at a 50% reduction until 2091. There may have been a lessening of conviction rates simply because of overcrowding but when you have guards too busy to watch people under suicide watch that tells you something.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://trends.vera.org/state/CA
>>>>>
>>>>> There are 50 State prison systems and 3000 ish county jail
>>>>> systems and I'm sure they vary in capacity and population
>>>>> over time. But generally, populations have dropped in the
>>>>> past few years.
>>>>
>>>> Ah but... is this because of a decrease in crime? Or due to much more
>>>> lenient penalization of those who commit crimes?
>>>>
>>> Theorize all you like but the fact remains there is plenty
>>> of capacity.
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/u-s-prison-population-trends-massive-buildup-and-modest-decline/ This article shows which states have increased incarceration and which have lost. In total there has only been a loss of 7% since a peak of a million and a half people since 2009. Most of these released were drug offenders. I have pretty much given up on those as well. If you want to murder yourself, go right ahead.
>>
>
>I don't suppose there would be much dissent for a felony
>murder charge for supplying/injecting fatal drug overdoses.
>
>But generally the hundred years plus of the worldwide Heroin
>ban has been a bust. It's cheaper, more pure, with a
>distribution system much more advanced and efficient than,
>say, national welfare programs or vaccine distribution
>schemes and anyone can get delivery faster than for a pizza.
>This is not a success. And not for any lack of effort or
>expense either.
>
>And that's not a secret either. Ludwig non Mises worked it
>out a priori 85 years ago:
>
>"If you give the government the right to determine the
>consumption of the human body, to determine whether one
>should smoke or not smoke, drink or not drink, there is no
>good reply you can give to people who say, More important
>than the body is the mind and the soul, and man hurts
>himself much more by reading bad books, by listening to bad
>music and looking at bad movies. Therefore it is the duty of
>the government to prevent people from committing those
>faults. And, as you know, for many hundreds of years
>governments and authorities believed that it was their duty."
>— Ludwig Von Mises
>

Which all sounds pretty good... but where do you draw the line?

The most drastic step would, of course, ignore all "crime" and just
let everyone do whatever they wanted to do. And, of course, the other
side of the equation is yo regulate everything.
Sober people might, for example, want to outlaw intoxicants and most
business people probably would applaud theft prevention. Recently
there seems to be a great furor about abortion with some arguing that
"it is immoral", while others arguing, "but I want it".

Rather then where do we draw the line perhaps the better question is
"who should draw the line".
--
Cheers,

John B.