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tech / rec.aviation.piloting / Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

SubjectAuthor
* Kudos Kamikazi KramerGeoff Rove
`* Re: Kudos Kamikazi KramerLarry Dighera
 +* Re: Kudos Kamikazi KramerJim Pennino
 |`* Re: Kudos Kamikazi KramerLarry Dighera
 | `* Re: Kudos Kamikazi KramerJim Pennino
 |  `* Re: Kudos Kamikazi KramerLarry Dighera
 |   `* Re: Kudos Kamikazi KramerJim Pennino
 |    `* Re: Kudos Kamikazi KramerLarry Dighera
 |     `- Re: Kudos Kamikazi KramerJim Pennino
 `- Re: Kudos Kamikazi KramerGeoff Rove

1
Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

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Subject: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
From: jgrov...@hotmail.com (Geoff Rove)
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 by: Geoff Rove - Fri, 20 Aug 2021 21:20 UTC

After kramer hit Aeromexico in the LAX airspace in 1987, advanced collision avoidance gear was mandated and I had worry free flights every since.

Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

<0u80ig1vockibgea4jbfokn476hovhm8ha@4ax.com>

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:09:08 -0700
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 by: Larry Dighera - Fri, 20 Aug 2021 22:09 UTC

On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT), Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>After kramer hit Aeromexico in the LAX airspace in 1987, advanced collision avoidance gear was mandated and I had worry free flights every since.

Advanced technology (transponder beacon) is a good thing.

However, your statement reveals that you haven't flown in Los Angeles basin
airspace in the past three decades. Burning a taxi light to enhance
conspicuity is about all non-TCAS equipped VFR flights can hope for, unless
the PIC is receiving radar traffic advisory service from ATC.


AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION PUBLICATION (AIP)
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/AIP.pdf
Page: ENR 1.1-28
25.3 The FAA has a voluntary pilot safety program,
Operation Lights On, to enhance the see-and-avoid
concept. Pilots are encouraged to turn on their landing
lights during takeoff; i.e., either after takeoff
clearance has been received or when beginning
takeoff roll. Pilots are further encouraged to turn on
their landing lights when operating below
10,000 feet, day or night, especially when operating
within 10 miles of any airport or in conditions of
reduced visibility and in areas where flocks of birds
may be expected; i.e., coastal areas, lake areas,
around refuse dumps, etc. Although turning on
aircraft lights does enhance the see-and-avoid
concept, pilots should not become complacent about
keeping a sharp lookout for other aircraft. Not all
aircraft are equipped with lights, and some pilots may
not have their lights turned on. Aircraft manufactur-
ers’ recommendations for operation of landing lights
and electrical systems should be observed.

Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

<bao5vh-qn2n.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=60&group=rec.aviation.piloting#60

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:52:29 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Fri, 20 Aug 2021 22:52 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT), Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>After kramer hit Aeromexico in the LAX airspace in 1987, advanced collision avoidance gear was mandated and I had worry free flights every since.
>
> Advanced technology (transponder beacon) is a good thing.
>
> However, your statement reveals that you haven't flown in Los Angeles basin
> airspace in the past three decades. Burning a taxi light to enhance
> conspicuity is about all non-TCAS equipped VFR flights can hope for, unless
> the PIC is receiving radar traffic advisory service from ATC.

Does the phrase "ADS-B requirement" mean anything to you?

Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

<3ml0ighe6kg662vprtsekdrtg69ndqvd1f@4ax.com>

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
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Subject: Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 11:27:03 -0700
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 by: Larry Dighera - Sat, 21 Aug 2021 18:27 UTC

On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:52:29 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT), Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>After kramer hit Aeromexico in the LAX airspace in 1987, advanced collision avoidance gear was mandated and I had worry free flights every since.
>>
>> Advanced technology (transponder beacon) is a good thing.
>>
>> However, your statement reveals that you haven't flown in Los Angeles basin
>> airspace in the past three decades. Burning a taxi light to enhance
>> conspicuity is about all non-TCAS equipped VFR flights can hope for, unless
>> the PIC is receiving radar traffic advisory service from ATC.
>
>Does the phrase "ADS-B requirement" mean anything to you?
>

ADS-B is a flawed corporate attempt to replace terrestrial radars with a
system that is more easily integrated into Boeing's ATC product under the
dubious guise of saving money by decommissioning radar sites.

ADS-B is dependent on GPS, a weak satellite-based signal, thus prone to
failure from a number of natural and manmade sources. Unlike radar, ADS-B
broadcasts can easily be spoofed by a pernicious flight to provide deceptive
position and other data. (I will refrain from providing examples of how
that deception may be used for nefarious goals.)

All aircraft in all classes of airspace are not required to be ADS-B
equipped.

When/if satellite communications are/become unavailable, terrestrial radar
will be sorely missed. It's only a matter of time.

So, ADS-B is a corporate boondoggle, and has little to do with true
flight-safety IMNSHO.

Why do you ask?

Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

<u4v7vh-v9no.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=65&group=rec.aviation.piloting#65

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 12:01:20 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Sat, 21 Aug 2021 19:01 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:52:29 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT), Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>After kramer hit Aeromexico in the LAX airspace in 1987, advanced collision avoidance gear was mandated and I had worry free flights every since.
>>>
>>> Advanced technology (transponder beacon) is a good thing.
>>>
>>> However, your statement reveals that you haven't flown in Los Angeles basin
>>> airspace in the past three decades. Burning a taxi light to enhance
>>> conspicuity is about all non-TCAS equipped VFR flights can hope for, unless
>>> the PIC is receiving radar traffic advisory service from ATC.
>>
>>Does the phrase "ADS-B requirement" mean anything to you?
>>
>
> ADS-B is a flawed corporate attempt to replace terrestrial radars with a
> system that is more easily integrated into Boeing's ATC product under the
> dubious guise of saving money by decommissioning radar sites.

Just how is ADS-B flawed?

Be precise.

You do understand that it is becoming a world wide standard?

There are currently 31 operational GPS satellites and they cover the
entire planet and about 70 additional GNSS satellites.

How many ground based radar sites would you need to cover just the USA
to include Alaska and Hawaii? How do you power and maintain the ones in
the Pacific between the West Coast and Hawaii?

How many ground based radar sites would you need to cover the entire
planet and how would you power and maintain them in areas near the North
and South poles as well as across the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian,
Southern and Arctic Oceans?

How could ground based radar provide information about nearby aircraft
to other aircraft without ADS-B?

> ADS-B is dependent on GPS, a weak satellite-based signal, thus prone to
> failure from a number of natural and manmade sources. Unlike radar, ADS-B
> broadcasts can easily be spoofed by a pernicious flight to provide deceptive
> position and other data. (I will refrain from providing examples of how
> that deception may be used for nefarious goals.)

How is GPS a weak signal?

Be precise.

Radar is trivialy spoofed and people have been doing so since shortly
after the invention of radar.

> All aircraft in all classes of airspace are not required to be ADS-B
> equipped.

True, however you specifically mentioned the Los Angeles basin.

What can you fly and where could you fly an airplane in the Los Angeles
basin without ADS-B?

> When/if satellite communications are/become unavailable, terrestrial radar
> will be sorely missed. It's only a matter of time.

If satellite communications become unavailable, you will have FAR bigger
things to worry about than the failure of ADS-B.

Maintaining terrestrial radar is a PITA and I do not miss it at all.

> So, ADS-B is a corporate boondoggle, and has little to do with true
> flight-safety IMNSHO.

Likely because you don't seem to understand it nor ever used it on a
long cross country through areas of very dense traffic.

> Why do you ask?

You do NOT really want me to answer that.

If it were up to me, ADS-B would be required for ANYTHING that flies
above 500 feet AGL.

Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

<8a6483b6-24e4-4cfc-a87f-9784a1f0a44cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
From: jgrov...@hotmail.com (Geoff Rove)
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 by: Geoff Rove - Sun, 22 Aug 2021 20:17 UTC

On Friday, August 20, 2021 at 5:09:17 PM UTC-5, Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT), Geoff Rove <jgro...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >After kramer hit Aeromexico in the LAX airspace in 1987, advanced collision avoidance gear was mandated and I had worry free flights every since.
> Advanced technology (transponder beacon) is a good thing.
>
> However, your statement reveals that you haven't flown in Los Angeles basin
> airspace in the past three decades. Burning a taxi light to enhance
> conspicuity is about all non-TCAS equipped VFR flights can hope for, unless
> the PIC is receiving radar traffic advisory service from ATC.
>
>
> AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION PUBLICATION (AIP)
> https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/AIP.pdf
> Page: ENR 1.1-28
> 25.3 The FAA has a voluntary pilot safety program,
> Operation Lights On, to enhance the see-and-avoid
> concept. Pilots are encouraged to turn on their landing
> lights during takeoff; i.e., either after takeoff
> clearance has been received or when beginning
> takeoff roll. Pilots are further encouraged to turn on
> their landing lights when operating below
> 10,000 feet, day or night, especially when operating
> within 10 miles of any airport or in conditions of
> reduced visibility and in areas where flocks of birds
> may be expected; i.e., coastal areas, lake areas,
> around refuse dumps, etc. Although turning on
> aircraft lights does enhance the see-and-avoid
> concept, pilots should not become complacent about
> keeping a sharp lookout for other aircraft. Not all
> aircraft are equipped with lights, and some pilots may
> not have their lights turned on. Aircraft manufactur-
> ers’ recommendations for operation of landing lights
> and electrical systems should be observed.

I flew at least 70 commercial flights over the last 30 years and am fortunate that no wondering Orvilles hit my airliner.

Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

<1287ig97s9js53rg34khg7pcrrujsjig6l@4ax.com>

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 07:42:49 -0700
Message-ID: <1287ig97s9js53rg34khg7pcrrujsjig6l@4ax.com>
References: <d18badeb-fa8c-491b-a3c4-6ce319d1c11cn@googlegroups.com> <0u80ig1vockibgea4jbfokn476hovhm8ha@4ax.com> <bao5vh-qn2n.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> <3ml0ighe6kg662vprtsekdrtg69ndqvd1f@4ax.com> <u4v7vh-v9no.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>
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 by: Larry Dighera - Mon, 23 Aug 2021 14:42 UTC

On Sat, 21 Aug 2021 12:01:20 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 15:52:29 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 14:20:48 -0700 (PDT), Geoff Rove <jgrove24@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>After kramer hit Aeromexico in the LAX airspace in 1987, advanced collision avoidance gear was mandated and I had worry free flights every since.
>>>>
>>>> Advanced technology (transponder beacon) is a good thing.
>>>>
>>>> However, your statement reveals that you haven't flown in Los Angeles basin
>>>> airspace in the past three decades. Burning a taxi light to enhance
>>>> conspicuity is about all non-TCAS equipped VFR flights can hope for, unless
>>>> the PIC is receiving radar traffic advisory service from ATC.
>>>
>>>Does the phrase "ADS-B requirement" mean anything to you?
>>>
>>
>> ADS-B is a flawed corporate attempt to replace terrestrial radars with a
>> system that is more easily integrated into Boeing's ATC product under the
>> dubious guise of saving money by decommissioning radar sites.
>
>Just how is ADS-B flawed?
>
>Be precise.
>
>You do understand that it is becoming a world wide standard?
>
>There are currently 31 operational GPS satellites and they cover the
>entire planet and about 70 additional GNSS satellites.
>
>How many ground based radar sites would you need to cover just the USA
>to include Alaska and Hawaii? How do you power and maintain the ones in
>the Pacific between the West Coast and Hawaii?
>
>How many ground based radar sites would you need to cover the entire
>planet and how would you power and maintain them in areas near the North
>and South poles as well as across the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian,
>Southern and Arctic Oceans?
>
>How could ground based radar provide information about nearby aircraft
>to other aircraft without ADS-B?
>
>> ADS-B is dependent on GPS, a weak satellite-based signal, thus prone to
>> failure from a number of natural and manmade sources. Unlike radar, ADS-B
>> broadcasts can easily be spoofed by a pernicious flight to provide deceptive
>> position and other data. (I will refrain from providing examples of how
>> that deception may be used for nefarious goals.)
>
>How is GPS a weak signal?
>
>Be precise.
>
>Radar is trivialy spoofed and people have been doing so since shortly
>after the invention of radar.
>
>> All aircraft in all classes of airspace are not required to be ADS-B
>> equipped.
>
>True, however you specifically mentioned the Los Angeles basin.
>
>What can you fly and where could you fly an airplane in the Los Angeles
>basin without ADS-B?
>
>> When/if satellite communications are/become unavailable, terrestrial radar
>> will be sorely missed. It's only a matter of time.
>
>If satellite communications become unavailable, you will have FAR bigger
>things to worry about than the failure of ADS-B.
>
>Maintaining terrestrial radar is a PITA and I do not miss it at all.
>
>> So, ADS-B is a corporate boondoggle, and has little to do with true
>> flight-safety IMNSHO.
>
>Likely because you don't seem to understand it nor ever used it on a
>long cross country through areas of very dense traffic.
>
>> Why do you ask?
>
>You do NOT really want me to answer that.
>
>If it were up to me, ADS-B would be required for ANYTHING that flies
>above 500 feet AGL.
>

Have a look here:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.piloting/c/Iew66r0knhQ/m/G9eueTVECQAJ
ADS-B is dependent on weak satellite radio signals for positional data
of the aircraft in which it is installed. As you mentioned, such a
system is vulnerable to the vagaries of electromagnetic propagation,
including solar coronal mass ejections, as well as spoofing by the ADS-B
cockpit equipment and higher powered radio transmitters potentially
overwhelming the satellite signal and taking control ...

<https://homeland.house.gov/files/Testimony-Humphreys.pdf>
STATEMENT ON THE VULNERABILITY OF CIVIL UNMANNED AERIAL VEHICLES AND
OTHER SYSTEMS TO CIVIL GPS SPOOFING TODD HUMPHREYS THE UNIVERSITY OF
TEXAS AT AUSTIN
1. Summary
Military Global Positioning System (GPS) signals have long been
encrypted to prevent counterfeiting and unauthorized use. Civil GPS
signals, on the other hand, were designed as an open standard,
freely-accessible to all.

These virtues have made civil GPS enormously popular, but the
transparency and predictability of its signals give rise to a dangerous
weakness: they can be easily counterfeited, or spoofed. Like Monopoly
money, civil GPS signals have a detailed structure but no built-in
protection against counterfeiting. Civil GPS is the most popular
unauthenticated protocol in the world.

The vulnerability of civil GPS to spoofing has serious implications for
civil unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), as was recently illustrated by a
dramatic remote hijacking of a UAV at White Sands Missile Range. The
demonstration was conducted by the University of Texas Radionavigation
Laboratory at the behest of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
From a standoff range of a half mile, the University spoofer
commandeered the UAV and induced it to plummet toward the desert floor.
The results of this demonstration will no doubt factor into the Federal
Aviation Administration’s (FAA’s) plans for integrating UAVs into the
national airspace.

Hacking a UAV by GPS spoofing is but one expression of a larger problem:
insecure civil GPS technology has over the last two decades been
absorbed deeply into critical systems within our national
infrastructure. Besides UAVs, civil GPS spoofing also presents a danger
to manned aircraft, maritime craft, communications systems, banking and
finance institutions, and the national power grid. ...

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.piloting/c/qxGOjj8tY-4/m/788xIg0lk0oJ
This satellite-based approach to NextGen Air Traffic Control is flawed.
While it permits defense contractors to deploy their market-ready
technology and wrest control of the skies from the federal government,
it significantly reduces air safety and opens a chink in the armor
against terrorism.

<http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/NBAA-Raises-Concerns-Over-ADS-B-Security-224160-1.html>
NBAA Raises Concerns Over ADS-B Security

By Mary Grady | May 26, 2015

The FAA's plans regarding ADS-B, or automatic dependent
surveillance-broadcast services, don't offer enough protection for
operators' privacy, security and business competitiveness, NBAA
President Ed Bolen said in an op-ed this week.

"ADS-B transmits an unencrypted, real-time signal that includes the
aircraft's Mode S transponder code, its call sign, aircraft type,
position and airspeed, as determined by the aircraft's own GPS-based
avionics," Bolen wrote. "Anyone with the right equipment can capture
that real-time data and potentially use it for nefarious purposes."
Bolen said NBAA is concerned that its members' flights could be tracked
by competitors trying to deduce their next business moves.

NBAA and other advocates prevailed in 2011 when they raised similar
concerns
<http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/New_Barr_Rules_206694-1.html>
about an FAA policy that would have made flight data public without the
option for operators to block it. "We believe people should not have to
surrender their security or privacy just because they board a
general-aviation airplane," Bolen wrote. NBAA will continue to monitor
the situation with regard to ADS-B and will advocate for change. ADS-B
is a cornerstone of NextGen air traffic modernization, and the FAA has
mandated that aircraft operating in airspace that now requires a Mode C
transponder must be equipped with ADS-B Out by Jan. 1, 2020.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.piloting/c/x0b12EM5-Fg/m/pxhypMeTBwAJ
Another Boeing Boondoggle Creates Potential Hazard In Skies Over Los
Angeles

Call me Chicken Little, but....

I take issue with this quote from the following article:

"The Metroplex system relies on sophisticated automation and global
positioning satellites that will let controllers and pilots know exactly
where aircraft are at all times instead of waiting every nine to 12
seconds
for radar signals to bounce back."

In fact, controllers will not KNOW the correct position of aircraft at
all. ATC
will know the position each aircraft reports via the GPS-based ADS/B
system.
That's significantly less certain than the empirical evidence provided
by
physically bouncing a radio signal off the aircraft, as it has been
demonstrated that weak satellite signals can be overridden with more
powerful
terrestrial-based radio transmitters, and satellites are vulnerable to
solar
disturbances such as Solar Mass Ejections. It also opens the specter of
ATC
spoofing and the hazards to national security that potentially poses.

Further, with all the aircraft in the very congested Los Angeles skies
operating at reduced separation standard distances, what ATC procedure
has been
SHOWN to be safe when the satellite link suddenly fails and all those
airborne
passengers suddenly find themselves in much closer proximity to each
other than
has ever happened before? Surly, radar will be a fall-back safety net,
so
there is no public financial incentive to purchase, deploy, train, and
operate
such a satellite-based ATC system. It's inherently more hazardous due to
its
reduced separation minimums. I would speculate that it only benefits the
airline industry and primarily contractor(s) installing Metroplex at the
expense of the tax payer, and paves the way for a reduction in the ATC
controller workforce due to increased computerized automation. If the
controller workforce is reduced, who will manually control the increased
traffic density of marginally separated flights when the system goes
down?

Who the hell is in charge here, the profiteers or those charged with
keeping
the skies safe?


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

<8eucvh-7vos.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 09:19:54 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Mon, 23 Aug 2021 16:19 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:

Since you didn't bother to directly address anything I said, it is all
snipped.

> Have a look here:
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.piloting/c/Iew66r0knhQ/m/G9eueTVECQAJ
> ADS-B is dependent on weak satellite radio signals for positional data
> of the aircraft in which it is installed. As you mentioned, such a
> system is vulnerable to the vagaries of electromagnetic propagation,
> including solar coronal mass ejections, as well as spoofing by the ADS-B
> cockpit equipment and higher powered radio transmitters potentially
> overwhelming the satellite signal and taking control ...

It is all a bunch of arm waving, ignorant nonsense.

Those "weak satellite radio signals" are at about -135 dBm which, if you
knew anything at all about RF propagation in general and line of sight
communications in particular, which you obviously don't, you would know
this is more than enough signal strength for reliable communications.

GPS frequencies are at about 200 times higher ithen that where the "vagaries
of electromagnetic propagation" have an effect.

If there is a solar coronal mass ejection that hits the Earth, you will
have FAR bigger things to worry about than GPS.

The rest is just Chicken Little bull shit.

<snip remaining unread>

Since ALL RF communications is subject to spoofing and jamming,
including ground radar, what would you suggest for an alternative?

Maybe a system of towers across the planet using signal mirrors?

OK, so you are mad because the AN system was turned off and all you can
do now is bitch about ADS-B and remain totally ignorant of the advantages
of the system over ground based radar.

Get over it.

Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

<j3l7igpo87mm90gbtem09s8am1u659p69t@4ax.com>

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From: LDigh...@att.net (Larry Dighera)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 11:48:17 -0700
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 by: Larry Dighera - Mon, 23 Aug 2021 18:48 UTC

On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 09:19:54 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
wrote:

>Those "weak satellite radio signals" are at about -135 dBm which, if you
>knew anything at all about RF propagation in general and line of sight
>communications in particular, which you obviously don't, you would know
>this is more than enough signal strength for reliable communications.

Jim,

While you may hold a degree in engineering, it's obviously not in electrical
engineering.

According to the dBm to mW conversion Calculators here:
<https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/dBm_to_mW.html>, and
<https://inductivetwig.com/pages/dbm-to-mw-converter> -135 dBm equals
3.1622776602e-14 Miliwats or 3.1622776601683796e-14 Miliwats respectively.
FCC Part 15 unlicensed radio transmitters are limited to 15 mW. That is low
enough for the US government to consider radio signals of that power level
to pose little probability of interfering with other services. If your GPS
power figure of -135 dBm is correct, it is five time less than what the
federal government considers a relevant radio signal. I'm sure you are
aware that one Miliwatt is 0.001 Watts. You've got to agree that 3/1000
Watts is a pitifully weak signal.

If the information published on this page:
<http://gpsinformation.net/main/gpspower.htm> is correct, the GPS signals is
even weaker than -135 dBm when it reaches the earth:

"How much POWER do the GPS Satellites output on the 1575mhz L1
frequency?

One of our anonymous newgroup readers gave this correct answer..

In the frequency allocation filing the L1 C/A power is listed as 25.6
Watts. The Antenna gain is listed at 13 dBi. Thus, based on the
frequency allocation filing, the power would be about 500 Watts (27
dBW).

Now, the free space path loss from 21000 km is about 182 dB. Take the
500 Watts (27 dBW) and subtract the free space path loss (27 - 182) and
you get -155 dBW. The end of life spec is -160 dBW, which leaves a 5 dB
margin."

>
>GPS frequencies are at about 200 times higher ithen that where the "vagaries
>of electromagnetic propagation" have an effect.
>

Are you able to cite a reasonable source that corroborates your dubious
assertion?

>
>If there is a solar coronal mass ejection that hits the Earth, you will
>have FAR bigger things to worry about than GPS.
>

Actually, solar coronal mass ejections occur quite frequently. Fortunately,
they are seldom aimed at Earth.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/nmp/st5/SCIENCE/cme.html

"The frequency of CMEs varies with the 11 year solar cycle. At solar
minimum we observe about one a week. Near solar maximum we observe an
average of two to three CMEs per day."

You can educate yourself about CMEs here:
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sunearth/spaceweather/index.html#q4
Solar Storm and Space Weather - Frequently Asked Questions

And here:
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sunearth/spaceweather/index.html#q13
"Changes in the ionosphere during geomagnetic storms interfere with
high-frequency radio communications and Global Positioning System (GPS)
navigation."

And here:
https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/02/05/349121/how-can-the-solar-cycle-threaten-technology-on-earth/
"The truth is we’ve skated through the solar maxima of the last century
with few problems, apart from having to ground flights occasionally
(like in Sweden in November 2015, when a solar flare caused radar
malfunctions) or dealing with damaged GPS or electrical equipment."

Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer

<4vbdvh-j93t.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net>

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From: jim...@gonzo.specsol.net (Jim Pennino)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Kudos Kamikazi Kramer
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 13:10:46 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jim Pennino - Mon, 23 Aug 2021 20:10 UTC

Larry Dighera <LDighera@att.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 09:19:54 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Those "weak satellite radio signals" are at about -135 dBm which, if you
>>knew anything at all about RF propagation in general and line of sight
>>communications in particular, which you obviously don't, you would know
>>this is more than enough signal strength for reliable communications.
>
> Jim,
>
> While you may hold a degree in engineering, it's obviously not in electrical
> engineering.

Actually I have a BSEE, been an amateur radio operator for about a half
century, have worked on radars and IFF (that's transponder to you) as
well as electronic warfare, and spent some time while getting the BSEE
working as an avionics technician.

What are your RF credentials?

<snip totally irrelevant crap about FCC Part 15>

> If the information published on this page:
> <http://gpsinformation.net/main/gpspower.htm> is correct, the GPS signals is
> even weaker than -135 dBm when it reaches the earth:

Nope, it just shows you know nothing about RF.

> you get -155 dBW. The end of life spec is -160 dBW, which leaves a 5 dB

dBm and dBW are two different units like pounds and kilograms, but that
is irrelevant as I know you know nothing about the subject of receiver
sensitivity.

>>GPS frequencies are at about 200 times higher ithen that where the "vagaries
>>of electromagnetic propagation" have an effect.

Also you obviously know nothing about antenna gain or propagation of
anykind.
> Are you able to cite a reasonable source that corroborates your dubious
> assertion?

Thousands of them, how many do you want?

FYI, "vagaries of electromagnetic propagation" are pretty much over at
about 30 Mhz and will very occasionally extend up to 100 Mhz. GPS runs
at about 1500 Mhz.

Also, the term "electromagnetic propagation" generally refers to
propagation between two points on the Earth, not between a point on the
to a point in space.

If one were to listen to your sage advice, all the amateur radio
operators on the planet would give up satellite communications with hand
held radios and whip antennas because what they have been doing for many
decades is obviously impossible.

>>If there is a solar coronal mass ejection that hits the Earth, you will
>>have FAR bigger things to worry about than GPS.
>>
>
> Actually, solar coronal mass ejections occur quite frequently. Fortunately,
> they are seldom aimed at Earth.

Yeah, so what?

It only counts if one hits, just like an asteroid or anything else
comming from space.

Been hit by an ateroid lately?

Perhaps in your zeal to bad mouth ADS-B you missed the words "hits the
Earth".

<snip irrelevant crap>

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