On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 15:40:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 16:10:28 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 8/1/2022 2:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> ... I found that every outlet in the
>>> house was wired backwards (hot and neutral reversed)...
>
>>Hah. I knew a guy that might have done that. He argued with me about
>>which wire was supposed to be hot. A mutual electrician friend said the
>>guy's nickname was "Sparky."
>>
>>He was one of the owners of a tiny business I consulted for. After we
>>parted ways, I saw a newspaper article in which he claimed he was an
>>engineer. His (only) degree was actually in business.
>
>I know who did the backwards wiring. I talked to him after yelling
>subsided in order to determine what happened. He should have known
>better because he had previously successfully re-wired several houses.
>What happened is that someone had given him a wall receptacle with all
>the wires cut to about 2 inches to use as a sample. I have no idea
>why, but my guess(tm) is that his eyesight was failing or maybe he's
>color blind. Of course, the sample was wired backwards. The breaker
>box was fine because he just copied the existing color coding. There
>were three people working on the electrical, yet nobody spotted the
>problem.[1]
>
>Standards are a good thing. Every country should have one.
><https://www.electricalclassroom.com/electrical-wiring-color-codes/>
>Notice that for single phase power:
><https://www.electricalclassroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/International-Wiring-color-codes..jpeg>
>the color codes vary radically by country. 3 phase is worse.
>
>If you use sensors, I suspect that the color codes were selected at
>random:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=thermocouple+color+codes+country&tbm=isch>
>
>
>[1] Many years ago, I installed CAT5 cable for serial data terminals
>in a medical office complex. My accomplice was terminating the
>connector ends in the server closet to EIA-568A color coding, while I
>was crimping the terminal ends to EIA-568B. Needless to say, it
>didn't work. I spend a dismal evening in a hot server closet fixing
>the problem.
><https://www.comms-express.com/infozone/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/T568A-and-T568B-wiring-spec-standards.jpg>

You need to travel a bit. When I was in Vietnam I found house wiring
to be two white wires, or maybe two black wires. But the lights worked
regardless to what color the wires were.

In the early days in Thailand I was, for a short time assigned as an
"electrical supervisor". My team wired a new addition to an existing
building and when the Air Force Inspector checked out the work he came
up with a "discrepancy" - wall switch mounted up side down. I told the
Thai crew chief to go fix it and he looked at me sort of funny and
said, "but the lights go on and off."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/1/2022 6:40 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 16:10:28 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 8/1/2022 2:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> ... I found that every outlet in the
>>> house was wired backwards (hot and neutral reversed)...
>
>> Hah. I knew a guy that might have done that. He argued with me about
>> which wire was supposed to be hot. A mutual electrician friend said the
>> guy's nickname was "Sparky."
>>
>> He was one of the owners of a tiny business I consulted for. After we
>> parted ways, I saw a newspaper article in which he claimed he was an
>> engineer. His (only) degree was actually in business.
>
> I know who did the backwards wiring. I talked to him after yelling
> subsided in order to determine what happened. He should have known
> better because he had previously successfully re-wired several houses.
> What happened is that someone had given him a wall receptacle with all
> the wires cut to about 2 inches to use as a sample. I have no idea
> why, but my guess(tm) is that his eyesight was failing or maybe he's
> color blind. Of course, the sample was wired backwards. The breaker
> box was fine because he just copied the existing color coding. There
> were three people working on the electrical, yet nobody spotted the
> problem.[1]
>
> Standards are a good thing. Every country should have one.
> <https://www.electricalclassroom.com/electrical-wiring-color-codes/>
> Notice that for single phase power:
> <https://www.electricalclassroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/International-Wiring-color-codes..jpeg>
> the color codes vary radically by country. 3 phase is worse.
>
> If you use sensors, I suspect that the color codes were selected at
> random:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=thermocouple+color+codes+country&tbm=isch>
>
>
> [1] Many years ago, I installed CAT5 cable for serial data terminals
> in a medical office complex. My accomplice was terminating the
> connector ends in the server closet to EIA-568A color coding, while I
> was crimping the terminal ends to EIA-568B. Needless to say, it
> didn't work. I spend a dismal evening in a hot server closet fixing
> the problem.
> <https://www.comms-express.com/infozone/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/T568A-and-T568B-wiring-spec-standards.jpg>

One of my good cycling friends, now sadly departed, was among the first
to receive a copy of the area bike maps developed by a team of club
volunteers. As with many such maps, we used red to indicate roads
suitable for only expert riders.

My friend said "But those all look black to me." I guess that happens
with red-green color blindness.

And one of the most competent electrical engineers I know is also color
blind. I've wondered how he ever dealt with things like resistor color
codes. Fortunately, he's long been way above doing such detail work,
except for his home hobby projects.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/1/2022 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> In the early days in Thailand I was, for a short time assigned as an
> "electrical supervisor". My team wired a new addition to an existing
> building and when the Air Force Inspector checked out the work he came
> up with a "discrepancy" - wall switch mounted up side down. I told the
> Thai crew chief to go fix it and he looked at me sort of funny and
> said, "but the lights go on and off."

How would the Inspector deal with a three way switch? On-Off and Up-Down
for one switch depends on the state of the other switch.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/1/2022 8:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/1/2022 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> In the early days in Thailand I was, for a short time
>> assigned as an
>> "electrical supervisor". My team wired a new addition to
>> an existing
>> building and when the Air Force Inspector checked out the
>> work he came
>> up with a "discrepancy" - wall switch mounted up side
>> down. I told the
>> Thai crew chief to go fix it and he looked at me sort of
>> funny and
>> said, "but the lights go on and off."
>
> How would the Inspector deal with a three way switch? On-Off
> and Up-Down for one switch depends on the state of the other
> switch.
>

[raises hand]

If there's an envelope of cash inside the fuse panel,
inspection passes.

If not you'll get written up, for violations real or
imagined (no commercial building is 100% ever). That will
repeat twice a year until the owner wises up.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 21:32:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/1/2022 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> In the early days in Thailand I was, for a short time assigned as an
>> "electrical supervisor". My team wired a new addition to an existing
>> building and when the Air Force Inspector checked out the work he came
>> up with a "discrepancy" - wall switch mounted up side down. I told the
>> Thai crew chief to go fix it and he looked at me sort of funny and
>> said, "but the lights go on and off."
>
>How would the Inspector deal with a three way switch? On-Off and Up-Down
>for one switch depends on the state of the other switch.

I have no idea as the question never came up as it was a simple on/off
light switch.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/1/2022 9:57 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/1/2022 8:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/1/2022 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> In the early days in Thailand I was, for a short time
>>> assigned as an
>>> "electrical supervisor". My team wired a new addition to
>>> an existing
>>> building and when the Air Force Inspector checked out the
>>> work he came
>>> up with a "discrepancy" - wall switch mounted up side
>>> down. I told the
>>> Thai crew chief to go fix it and he looked at me sort of
>>> funny and
>>> said, "but the lights go on and off."
>>
>> How would the Inspector deal with a three way switch? On-Off
>> and Up-Down for one switch depends on the state of the other
>> switch.
>>
>
> [raises hand]
>
> If there's an envelope of cash inside the fuse panel, inspection passes.
>
> If not you'll get written up, for violations real or imagined (no
> commercial building is 100% ever). That will repeat twice a year until
> the owner wises up.

Such a cynic!

As a counterexample: One of my best friends from engineering school
decided to build his own house, with the help of his father. He later
told me about all the trouble he had passing inspection for IIRC the
plumbing.

As he told me, the third trip out the building inspector said "Oh hell,
just let me do it for you." And he completed whatever changes were
necessary.

Maybe the envelope of cash couldn't be hidden in a drainpipe?

--
- Frank Krygowski