The comment was "Great read" to this article I wrote, coming from
posting to a seafaring group.

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/nautical/220713_torreyc/220713_torrey_canyon_investig.html
"Investigate Torrey Canyon / Pollard Rock wreck circumstances"

The crux of the matter was to find the state of the tides on that day
55 years ago. Which I managed to do.
Probably why the seafarers found my novice work worth comment?
In evaluating the plausibility of all that is otherwise recorded about
the mishap.

Posting because I hope it gives an enjoyable "coffee-break read".

Rich Smith

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly7d3vqcvf.fsf@void.com...

The comment was "Great read" to this article I wrote, coming from
posting to a seafaring group.

http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/nautical/220713_torreyc/220713_torrey_canyon_investig.html
"Investigate Torrey Canyon / Pollard Rock wreck circumstances"

The crux of the matter was to find the state of the tides on that day
55 years ago. Which I managed to do.
Probably why the seafarers found my novice work worth comment?
In evaluating the plausibility of all that is otherwise recorded about
the mishap.

Posting because I hope it gives an enjoyable "coffee-break read".

Rich Smith

-------------------------

If it's so hard to determine now, how could the Captain have known that the
tide and current on the east side would be favorable?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_naval_disaster_of_1707
Do people still name their kids "Cloudesley"?

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly7d3vqcvf.fsf@void.com...
>
> ...

>> If it's so hard to determine now, how could the Captain have known
>> that the tide and current on the east side would be favorable?
>>
>> ...

There are tide tables for the coming year.
Nautical almanacs have them.
These would have been available, no two ways about it.

The story is about whether the Captain deliberately intended to use
those favourable currents to get faster past the Isles of Scilly on
the forbidden inside narrow East channel.

The problem I mentioned was knowing exactly what the tide was doing at
a specific time on a day over 55 years ago. When there is no
accessible record. Tide tables are for prediction. When the year is
ended they go with the waste paper.
I managed to reconstruct what the tide table would have shown from the
raw tide gauge numbers for that day.
Except that being the tide that was, not the astronomical prediction.
But that would have only had a fraction of a metre and minutes of
difference to the astronomical prediction the Captain, Navigation
Officer and so on would have seen.

That much earlier wrecking on the Isles of Scilly - that lead to the
forming of the Board of Longitude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Longitude
and the offering of the prize for solving the Longitude problem - how
to know in some accurate way how far around the World you are.

Regards,
Rich Smith

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly8rnynwxa.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly7d3vqcvf.fsf@void.com...
>
> ...

>> If it's so hard to determine now, how could the Captain have known
>> that the tide and current on the east side would be favorable?
>>
>> ...

There are tide tables for the coming year.
Nautical almanacs have them.
These would have been available, no two ways about it.

The story is about whether the Captain deliberately intended to use
those favourable currents to get faster past the Isles of Scilly on
the forbidden inside narrow East channel.

The problem I mentioned was knowing exactly what the tide was doing at
a specific time on a day over 55 years ago. When there is no
accessible record. Tide tables are for prediction. When the year is
ended they go with the waste paper.
I managed to reconstruct what the tide table would have shown from the
raw tide gauge numbers for that day.
Except that being the tide that was, not the astronomical prediction.
But that would have only had a fraction of a metre and minutes of
difference to the astronomical prediction the Captain, Navigation
Officer and so on would have seen.

That much earlier wrecking on the Isles of Scilly - that lead to the
forming of the Board of Longitude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Longitude
and the offering of the prize for solving the Longitude problem - how
to know in some accurate way how far around the World you are.

Regards,
Rich Smith

----------------------

So he would/should have had a paper version of this, but they weren't saved
back then?
https://www.tide-forecast.com/locations/Saint-Marys-Isles-Of-Scilly-England/tides/latest

https://britishheritage.com/history/newlyn-tidal-observatory

Your theory sounds like it's worth investigating. Were other ships similarly
blown off course at the time? If so, would they admit it?
Titanic's wreck was found 13 miles east of their distress call position.

In researching Amelia Earhart's 1937 disappearance Tighar reconstructed the
tides on the island they think she landed on, and matched the times of her
apparent radio transmission attempts with low tide when she may have had
propeller clearance to run the engine to recharge the battery. She was too
remote for intelligible voice transmission from her 50W HF radio and barely
knew Morse. When asked to respond she (or someone) did send CW dashes from
approximately the island's DF'ed direction, however they stopped two days
before a search plane flew over and saw "definite signs of recent
habitation" but no sign of current life or her plane.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly8rnynwxa.fsf@void.com...
>
>> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly7d3vqcvf.fsf@void.com...
>>>
>>> ...
>>
>>>> If it's so hard to determine now, how could the Captain have known
>>>> that the tide and current on the east side would be favorable?
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>
>> There are tide tables for the coming year.
>> Nautical almanacs have them.
>> These would have been available, no two ways about it.
>>
>> The story is about whether the Captain deliberately intended to use
>> those favourable currents to get faster past the Isles of Scilly on
>> the forbidden inside narrow East channel.
>>
>> The problem I mentioned was knowing exactly what the tide was doing at
>> a specific time on a day over 55 years ago. When there is no
>> accessible record. Tide tables are for prediction. When the year is
>> ended they go with the waste paper.
>> I managed to reconstruct what the tide table would have shown from the
>> raw tide gauge numbers for that day.
>> Except that being the tide that was, not the astronomical prediction.
>> But that would have only had a fraction of a metre and minutes of
>> difference to the astronomical prediction the Captain, Navigation
>> Officer and so on would have seen.
>>
>> That much earlier wrecking on the Isles of Scilly - that lead to the
>> forming of the Board of Longitude
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Longitude
>> and the offering of the prize for solving the Longitude problem - how
>> to know in some accurate way how far around the World you are.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rich Smith

> So he would/should have had a paper version of this, but they weren't
> saved back then?
> https://www.tide-forecast.com/locations/Saint-Marys-Isles-Of-Scilly-England/tides/latest
>
> https://britishheritage.com/history/newlyn-tidal-observatory
>
> Your theory sounds like it's worth investigating. Were other ships
> similarly blown off course at the time? If so, would they admit it?
> Titanic's wreck was found 13 miles east of their distress call position.
>
> ...

Tide preciction (forecast) - yes, exactly. It's a book / booklet with
a table. Dense with nothing but numbers.
I have one in my car and one on my bookshelf for the nearby port.
I have to use it, or an online prediction, every time I go sailing -
on my dinghy or crewing on a yacht when I at least want to be "with
the plan".
They had a machine with gears (?) which worked out the celestial
effects giving the tides and output the prediction (if I gather
right). I think it's preserved.
There is no point keeping a tide prediction when everything in it is
in the past. No conspiracy there. It's like a calendar - when the
year is gone, it goes in the recycling.
St Marys is exactly one of the tides I tried to look up for 0730 on
18th March 1967.

Then you found the Newlyn Tide guage.
You are treading exactly the path I trod.
I've been to Newlyn, but was oblivious that there is
this famous tide gauge, which was right there in my field of view.
You see a lighthouse on the end of the pier as at many smaller ports,
with no hint this is a convenient addition over the famous tide gauge.

I had the data already for March 1967, so did a simple plot of tides
for that month for three well-known locations. Just for subjective
comparision.
http://www.weldsmith.co.uk/nautical/220728_th196703_N_D_MHA/220728_tideh196703_N_D_MHA.html

By the way - local radio stations playing mainly hits from previous
decades (they can't afford the "hit of the week" (?)) read out the
tide times along with the weather forecast and the news. That much of
the population has what they do modulated by the tide in some way.

> ... Were other ships similarly blown off course at the time? If so,
> would they admit it? ...

They deliberately did routes which saved time, and "blarney'ed" away
about an understandable navigational error given the conditions if
seen where they shouldn't be.

> Titanic's wreck was found 13 miles east of their distress call
> position.

They had "dead reckoning" - how long they'd steamed on a given heading
at a logged speed, giving an estimated current position - with
occasional celestial measurements.
The ship could have drifted while sinking as well. etc.
It is as it is.

I was a total novice wandering amongst experienced seapersons when I
did that article.
The whole point for me was to test myself and learn.

Rich Smith

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyiln1c0pf.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> ... Were other ships similarly blown off course at the time? If so,
> would they admit it? ...

They deliberately did routes which saved time, and "blarney'ed" away
about an understandable navigational error given the conditions if
seen where they shouldn't be.

> Titanic's wreck was found 13 miles east of their distress call
> position.

They had "dead reckoning" - how long they'd steamed on a given heading
at a logged speed, giving an estimated current position - with
occasional celestial measurements.
The ship could have drifted while sinking as well. etc.
It is as it is.

I was a total novice wandering amongst experienced seapersons when I
did that article.
The whole point for me was to test myself and learn.

Rich Smith

-----------------------
I'm glad to be able to contribute. I had looked up British tidal gauges as
examples of mechanical instruments with very long service lifespans.

Titanic had taken an evening star sighting about 4 hours before the
collision. Speeds assumed from propeller shaft RPM and recorded by the
patent log differed by less than a knot. Titanic wasn't quite at full speed
or boiler output and couldn't possibly have challenged Mauretania's crossing
speed record, having been designed for much better fuel economy instead. The
first hastily reported position (before likely electrical failure?) was 20
miles (~1 hour) too far west, then they corrected it to 13 miles too far
west, still on the other side of the dense ice field. They were within a
mile in latitude. The sinking position is taken as directly above the tight
cluster of boilers and coal that spilled out when the hull loudly
broke/shredded between the engines and boilers and the lights went out. The
current that carried the ice as far south as Portugal has been estimated as
a knot or so to the southeast.

The positional error is possible evidence supporting the temperature
inversion mirage theory, which could explain many of the unresolved
questions, such as why other ships' lights could be seen from the lifeboats
but not the crows nest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata_Morgana_(mirage)

The rescue ship Carpathia covered up Titanic's navigational error by
claiming a speed well above their ability. The positions and identities of
other nearby ships has been hotly disputed. The case is interesting because
it has been so thoroughly investigated and documented and had plenty of
eyewitnesses, yet many puzzles remain. The American inquest was an honest
attempt to unravel the incident, conducted by US Senators with little
nautical knowledge. The British inquest was a coverup of the Board of Trade
and its outdated lifeboat regulations, although Titanic didn't have enough
time or deck hands to launch all the boats it did carry. The last two
floated off as the upper deck submerged.

As a result all passenger ships were required to carry sufficient lifeboats,
including this one which was unbalanced by the additional topside weight:
https://eastlanddisaster.org/

My goal is to learn to analyze and understand (solve/avoid?) complex
technical failures, specifically in the aircraft systems I was building
prototypes of. For example the Torrey Canyon suffered a switchology failure
in that the autopilot control switch position wasn't apparent, so they
didn't know why the ship wasn't responding to the helm when they needed to
turn NOW. The 737's MCAS was similar. On Titanic the helmsman couldn't see
forward at night because closed shutters in front of him kept the light from
his compass and rudder angle indicator from degrading the bridge officers'
night vision. Who/what/when on the bridge that night is still unclear.

On the French airliner that fell into the South Atlantic, the stall
indicator was disabled below 60kts to avoid false tripping from ground wind.
The plane stalled and fell with less than 60kts forward speed, so the alarm
was silent, until the captain tried dropping the nose to gain speed, the
correct answer. Then the stall alarm came on, confusing them.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyiln1c0pf.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> ... Were other ships similarly blown off course at the time? If so,
> would they admit it? ...

They deliberately did routes which saved time, and "blarney'ed" away
about an understandable navigational error given the conditions if
seen where they shouldn't be.

------------------------

Other than the unanswerable question of intent, does this match what you
have found?
https://www.splashmaritime.com.au/Marops/data/less/Poll/torreycan.htm

How does a ship's speed affect its turning radius?

If you add layers of "safety systems", each one of these could
generate its own lethal malfunction or confluence-of-events disaster.

Sometimes - keep things simple, know how everything works, have
trained and mentored people present and be aware of the hazards /
risks.

I've seen that "last voyage" article elsewhere.
I think it's good, but having consulted with mariners.

Turning circle - best say "don't know".
Coming into our local port of Teignmouth, getting through the narrow
entrance on the peak of the high tide, the ships have to turn about
90deg to follow the channel. Ships - about 4000Tonne bulk cargo
carriers.
Fairly much a stone's-throw from the beach, you can hear the engines
revving-up and see the wake as they put the rudder over (45deg?). See
the heat-haze from the stack.
That's the way I know - power the engine and put the rudder over 45deg
for a rapid turn.
Already at speed - you'll have to ask a mariner...

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyo7wrn817.fsf@void.com...

If you add layers of "safety systems", each one of these could
generate its own lethal malfunction or confluence-of-events disaster.

Sometimes - keep things simple, know how everything works, have
trained and mentored people present and be aware of the hazards /
risks.

-------------------

I know that well, and am glad I could leave safety compliance to the degreed
engineers. The problem is that if you cover every possibility the manual is
4" thick. An airliner flew into the ground while the crew was occupied with
diagnosing an indicator malfunction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401

The Boeing 737's MCAS that caused two fatal loss of control crashes was an
added safety system that proved susceptible to sensor failures. Airbus is
reputedly worse, I mentioned the stall warning that brought down an
airliner. There was a joke that the cockpit of the future would contain a
man and a dog. The man's job was to feed the dog, the dog's to bite him if
he touched the controls.

Machines we built for auto factories had to have all internal wiring run
through grounded conduit, so when a union forklift driver "accidentally"
jabbed the forks into it, the conduit would ground the severed wires and
trip the breaker or GFI. I salvaged a fair amount of bruised but still
serviceable electronics for hobby use from rebuilding machines damaged by a
forklift.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyk07fn7pz.fsf@void.com...

I've seen that "last voyage" article elsewhere.
I think it's good, but having consulted with mariners.

Turning circle - best say "don't know".
Coming into our local port of Teignmouth, getting through the narrow
entrance on the peak of the high tide, the ships have to turn about
90deg to follow the channel. Ships - about 4000Tonne bulk cargo
carriers.
Fairly much a stone's-throw from the beach, you can hear the engines
revving-up and see the wake as they put the rudder over (45deg?). See
the heat-haze from the stack.
That's the way I know - power the engine and put the rudder over 45deg
for a rapid turn.
Already at speed - you'll have to ask a mariner...

----------------------

On a visit to Halifax, Nova Scotia I took the harbor cruise. Coming back in
the skipper demonstrated his skill by coming in fast nearly perpendicular to
the quay, then turning sharply to port while briefly revving the engine so
that he skidded the boat in sideways, cushioned by the wave it kicked up
against the stone wall. The boat came to a dead stop ready to tie up and
pull in slightly.

I saw it coming and paid attention because I'd learned to do that trick in a
canoe, riding the wave sideways up onto a beach. I didn't expect to see it
done by a good sized passenger boat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Explosion
"No party was ever convicted for any crime or otherwise successfully
prosecuted for any actions that precipitated the disaster."

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> on Wed, 10 Aug 2022 18:33:51
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyo7wrn817.fsf@void.com...
>
>If you add layers of "safety systems", each one of these could
>generate its own lethal malfunction or confluence-of-events disaster.
>
>Sometimes - keep things simple, know how everything works, have
>trained and mentored people present and be aware of the hazards /
>risks.
>
>-------------------
>
>I know that well, and am glad I could leave safety compliance to the degreed
>engineers. The problem is that if you cover every possibility the manual is
>4" thick. An airliner flew into the ground while the crew was occupied with
>diagnosing an indicator malfunction.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401
>
>The Boeing 737's MCAS that caused two fatal loss of control crashes was an
>added safety system that proved susceptible to sensor failures. Airbus is
>reputedly worse, I mentioned the stall warning that brought down an
>airliner. There was a joke that the cockpit of the future would contain a
>man and a dog. The man's job was to feed the dog, the dog's to bite him if
>he touched the controls.
>
>Machines we built for auto factories had to have all internal wiring run
>through grounded conduit, so when a union forklift driver "accidentally"
>jabbed the forks into it, the conduit would ground the severed wires and
>trip the breaker or GFI. I salvaged a fair amount of bruised but still
>serviceable electronics for hobby use from rebuilding machines damaged by a
>forklift.

As the saying goes: ever time you attempt to make something idiot
proof, along come better idiots.

And as the interlocks to prevent stupidity /liabilities increase,
fewer people are paying attention to the process. "Oh, 'the machine'
will get it right, nothing to worry about."

The odds for failure are one in a million. Which means it happens
nine out of ten times.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
news:njtafh5l15pvp69tudsugaai8v12mm36dm@4ax.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> on Wed, 10 Aug 2022 18:33:51
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
>"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyo7wrn817.fsf@void.com...

As the saying goes: ever time you attempt to make something idiot
proof, along come better idiots.

And as the interlocks to prevent stupidity /liabilities increase,
fewer people are paying attention to the process. "Oh, 'the machine'
will get it right, nothing to worry about."

The odds for failure are one in a million. Which means it happens
nine out of ten times.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although far too often, Age travels alone."

----------------------

They aren't idiots, but their limited English hinders training them.

Similar bad judgment accidents:
https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/the-last-cruise-of-mikhail-lermontov/
https://www.nautinst.org/resources-page/grounding-of-qe2.html

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tdd8h3$3jkev$1@dont-email.me...

https://www.nautinst.org/resources-page/grounding-of-qe2.html
----------------------

This is the page I was looking for:
https://www.hydro-international.com/content/article/grounding-of-the-queen-elizabeth-2-response

Hi Jim
Queen Elizabeth 2 early 1990's Martha's Vineyard interesting.
Confluence of events.
The more I learn, the more I realise how complex and not fully
determinate seafaring is.
There seems to be a lot of summing risks and balancing eg. sailing a
little bit further vs. looping by tried-and-trusted seaways.
The one about glacial erratic boulders over a significant area whose
exact height is difficult to chart - that is unusual and surely the
best would be to write that on the chart - give that "raw"
information.
I wasn't sure I was seeing any one party at fault.
If anything I was surprised the pilot didn't err to the side of
caution given he's commanding a passenger liner at high speed and
damn' well knows the local area with the uncertainties of that unusual
feature.
Rich S

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lytu5ztomb.fsf@void.com...

If anything I was surprised the pilot didn't err to the side of
caution given he's commanding a passenger liner at high speed and
damn' well knows the local area with the uncertainties of that unusual
feature.
Rich S

-------------------------

Familiarity breeds contempt:
https://www.sciencealert.com/the-chilling-story-of-the-demon-core-and-the-scientists-who-became-its-victims

Most of the Uranium from the Nazi effort disappeared into the US program,
possibly to be transmuted into Plutonium. I wonder if the Demon Core was
made from it.

My computer abruptly shut down when I accessed a page about the Nazi project
and the missing cubes, so I've left out the references in this second
attempt.

Much of our knowledge of acute radiation poisoning came from those and some
similar lab accidents. The effects of lower doses are considerably less than
generally believed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4981260/

My understanding is the Nazi German establishment didn't get far with
the concept of a nuclear weapon.
The furious drive which for instance got me my Doctorate wasn't there
among the established German academic scientists with limited
engineering knowledge.

The ability and willingness to finance and build huge production
facilities "on a handshake agreement" coupled with the drive of the
emirgre/ scientists comes over to me as the winning formula...

My impression of "the demon core" story is that they knew the risks
but equally complacency had built-up.
Maybe an acceptance of lethal risk...

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yif3vbg.fsf@void.com...

My understanding is the Nazi German establishment didn't get far with
the concept of a nuclear weapon.
The furious drive which for instance got me my Doctorate wasn't there
among the established German academic scientists with limited
engineering knowledge.

The ability and willingness to finance and build huge production
facilities "on a handshake agreement" coupled with the drive of the
emirgre/ scientists comes over to me as the winning formula...

My impression of "the demon core" story is that they knew the risks
but equally complacency had built-up.
Maybe an acceptance of lethal risk...

-----------------------------

This excerpt of the Farm Hall transcript provides insight into the
leadership of the German nuclear program.
https://history.aip.org/exhibits/heisenberg/farm-hall.html
"Engine" = reactor. They might have put one in a U-boot and try to let it
melt down in New York harbor, however they were unaware we could decrypt
their coded radio messages and would be waiting to sink it with air-dropped
homing torpedos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_27_torpedo

The Nazis had already chased out the Jewish physicists who came here and
helped us. Hitler's propaganda that the war would be short inhibited
development of longer-term projects such as the jet engine, until it became
inescapably obvious that they would lose the war. By then too many people
with technical skills had been drafted and they were running out of critical
materials like oil, rubber and high temperature metals.

I participated in an on-line argument in rec.aviation.military some years
ago with neo-Nazi hard-liners who claimed they could have won if only things
had gone a little differently. In the process they dragged out all their old
myths of superiority for us to thoroughly shred. I handled the electronics
and helped with other technical parts such as finding that the wartime total
explosives weight delivered by the V1 and V2 amounted to one day and night
of Allied bombing.

For instance German aircraft designer Alexander Lippisch created advanced
late-war designs, paper airplanes, that supposedly could have won them the
war if it had lasted into 1946. He finally had his chance to create a metal
jet plane in the American F-102, which proved to be a miserable failure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lippisch
Notice how many initial supporters "lost interest".

Another example is British HF/DF, Huff-Duff, which could determine the
direction to a U-Boot radio transmission in its first milliSecond without
rotating the antenna. The Germans had created a transmitter that compressed
a message into a 50 milliSecond burst and the neos were still firmly
convinced the Allies couldn't locate it, since German rotating radio
direction finders couldn't and they were naturally the best available.

It's true the British system was less directionally accurate, but all it
needed to do was alert destroyers and direct them to move closer to await
the next transmission.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yif3vbg.fsf@void.com...
> ...

>> ... with neo-Nazi hard-liners who claimed they could have won if
>> only things had gone a little differently. ...

Apparently psychologists call these "counter-factuals".

>> ... the wartime total explosives weight delivered by the V1 and V2
>> amounted to one day and night of Allied bombing. ...

V1's could be devastating - so many so cheaply.
V2's were a vanity of where the plot had been lost.
As I understand it.

>>
>> For instance German aircraft designer Alexander Lippisch created
>> advanced late-war designs, paper airplanes, that supposedly could have
>> won them the war if it had lasted into 1946.

>> ... He finally had his chance
>> to create a metal jet plane in the American F-102, which proved to be
>> a miserable failure. ...

"Counter-factuals" again.?!

>> Another example is British HF/DF, Huff-Duff, which could determine the
>> direction to a U-Boot radio transmission in its first milliSecond
>> without rotating the antenna. The Germans had created a transmitter
>> that compressed a message into a 50 milliSecond burst ...

Heard about Huff-Duff.
The eccentricity which runs through the British and allies made for
unexpected ramshackle solutions which worked well and could be updated
quickly, as I understand it.

Apparently due to British / commonwealth radio amateurs of the 1930's
- vs. banned by the Nazis controlling "the message" - British / allied
radars could be right contraptions which rapidly passed through
several variants sidestepping jamming, taking on improvements, etc.
Where the Nazi Germans had to have expensive well-engineered radars
but which once countered - eg. jamming - could not be easilyt adapted.
As I hear...

The British where amazingly good at keeping their mouths shut and not
letting leak out knowledge of what a significant group of people were
doing. What American politicians did apparently, seemingly
getting-off on the number of lives which would be lost with their
"juicy titbit" of broadcast disclosure...
Long long ago I intervened and hid a military manual under the
driver's seat of someone working for the US military with a very
obvious US car. He wouldn't "buy" it - don't reveal. No security in
US airports.
Then the absurd over-reaction to Sept 11th 2001 - I mean something is
going to come in and bite you at home after so many wars...

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lya67q6el9.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:ly5yif3vbg.fsf@void.com...
> ...

>> ... with neo-Nazi hard-liners who claimed they could have won if
>> only things had gone a little differently. ...

Apparently psychologists call these "counter-factuals".

>> ... the wartime total explosives weight delivered by the V1 and V2
>> amounted to one day and night of Allied bombing. ...

V1's could be devastating - so many so cheaply.
V2's were a vanity of where the plot had been lost.
As I understand it.

[[ V2s were intended to receive mid-course corrections but as a result of
their embarrassing defeat in the Battle of the Beams the Germans gave up
sending radio control signals over England, as the British were too good at
"bending" and spoofing them. When the Germans employed rapid frequency
hopping to prevent jamming their guided missile command links, the British
countered by sending "turn right" on one or more channels which kept
throwing the missile off course. We simply jammed the receiver's IF
frequency. ]]

>> Another example is British HF/DF, Huff-Duff, which could determine the
>> direction to a U-Boot radio transmission in its first milliSecond
>> without rotating the antenna. The Germans had created a transmitter
>> that compressed a message into a 50 milliSecond burst ...

Heard about Huff-Duff.
The eccentricity which runs through the British and allies made for
unexpected ramshackle solutions which worked well and could be updated
quickly, as I understand it.

[[ HF/DF was a carefully engineered and extensively developed system, unlike
Chain Home which was hastily slapped together from available parts. The
Germans didn't destroy it because they didn't recognize it as a radar, since
it wasn't like theirs. ]]

[[ Our forces in New Guinea where my father served were masters of
innovation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Gunn
General Kenney was an engineer and inventor himself who contributed the
stock of his "parafrag" bombs.
https://ww2-history.fandom.com/wiki/AN-M40_Fragmentation_Bomb
The dense jungle canopy and lack of radar prevented the Japanese from
detecting extremely low flying raids. The treetop-skimming gunships would
open fire at 1000 yards and sweep the target clean, forcing the enemy troops
into trenches where they were helpless, then the "coconut bombers" would
destroy the enemy aircraft and supplies. The flat part of New Guinea was too
wet to protect supplies in underground bunkers.
My father's unit had cold beer in their jungle Officers' Club, thanks to a
Jeep engine converted into a refrigeration compressor. ]]

Apparently due to British / commonwealth radio amateurs of the 1930's
- vs. banned by the Nazis controlling "the message" - British / allied
radars could be right contraptions which rapidly passed through
several variants sidestepping jamming, taking on improvements, etc.
Where the Nazi Germans had to have expensive well-engineered radars
but which once countered - eg. jamming - could not be easilyt adapted.
As I hear...

[[ R. V. Jones' book "The Wizard War" is a gold mine on that subject. He
wrote that unknown transmissions could be characterized as German by their
much tighter crystal-controlled frequency stability, which only expensive
British lab equipment could equal. Britain turned to America for top quality
radio gear in quantity, since your designs required tedious careful tuning
by scarce expert technicians. ]]

The British where amazingly good at keeping their mouths shut and not
letting leak out knowledge of what a significant group of people were
doing. What American politicians did apparently, seemingly
getting-off on the number of lives which would be lost with their
"juicy titbit" of broadcast disclosure...

[[ There were cases of politicos and reporters revealing sensitive material
like dud Japanese fuses but military secrets are pretty safe here. The same
happened with Argie fuses in the Falklands. I can't say more. ]]

Then the absurd over-reaction to Sept 11th 2001 - I mean something is
going to come in and bite you at home after so many wars...

[[ The US generally doesn't care about what happens in the rest of the
world, for example the Eurovision contest. We just do our thing and let you
do yours. Arousing support for foreign action requires considerable effort,
which is what you saw there. Compare the politics to the Ems Dispatch or the
defeat at Isandlwana. The incident at Fashoda was nearly hyped into a war
with France although the British and French troops at the scene were polite
and restrained. Supposedly the worst part was a French officer trying to
force down a drink of British whiskey. ]]

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>
> [[ Our forces in New Guinea where my father served were masters of
> innovation.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Gunn
> General Kenney was an engineer and inventor himself who contributed
> ...

Yes. There is that spirit - something unreservedly admired about the US

> [[ R. V. Jones' book "The Wizard War" is a gold mine on that
> subject. He wrote that unknown transmissions could be characterized as
> German by their much tighter crystal-controlled frequency stability,
> which only expensive British lab equipment could equal. Britain turned
> to America for top quality radio gear in quantity, since your designs
> required tedious careful tuning by scarce expert technicians. ]]

R. V. Jones I have certainly have heard about and read at least one of
his books.
Not sure I have read "The Wizard War". I must look it up.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lysflgh4v7.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>
> [[ Our forces in New Guinea where my father served were masters of
> innovation.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Gunn
> General Kenney was an engineer and inventor himself who contributed
> ...

Yes. There is that spirit - something unreservedly admired about the US

> [[ R. V. Jones' book "The Wizard War" is a gold mine on that
> subject. He wrote that unknown transmissions could be characterized as
> German by their much tighter crystal-controlled frequency stability,
> which only expensive British lab equipment could equal. Britain turned
> to America for top quality radio gear in quantity, since your designs
> required tedious careful tuning by scarce expert technicians. ]]

R. V. Jones I have certainly have heard about and read at least one of
his books.
Not sure I have read "The Wizard War". I must look it up.

--------------------------

Apparently that's the US title for "Most Secret War."
Much of it concerns radio and assumes some knowledge of it.

For mechanical devices you might look up the Wheezers and Dodgers of the
Admiralty and Hobart's Funnies. For freelance innovation you could try
"Popski's Private Army".