Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.

First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.

Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.

The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.

My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.

So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
Deacon Mark

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
>
> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
>
> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
>
> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
>
> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
>
> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest.. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> Deacon Mark

I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames.. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.

As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.

On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
>>
>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
>>
>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
>>
>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
>>
>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
>>
>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
>> Deacon Mark
>
> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
>
> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
>

Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
monthly).

The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
is not a qualitative difference.

Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.

Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
prices accordingly.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> >>
> >> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> >>
> >> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> >>
> >> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> >>
> >> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> >>
> >> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> >> Deacon Mark
> >
> > I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> >
> > As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> >
> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> monthly).
>
> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> is not a qualitative difference.
>
> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
>
> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> prices accordingly.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance.. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 10:29:05 PM UTC-5, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> > >>
> > >> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train.. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> > >>
> > >> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> > >>
> > >> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> > >>
> > >> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> > >>
> > >> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> > >> Deacon Mark
> > >
> > > I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> > >
> > > As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> > >
> > Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> > standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> > monthly).
> >
> > The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> > the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> > same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> > is not a qualitative difference.
> >
> > Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> > either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> > attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> > went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> >
> > Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> > prices accordingly.
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.

Russell when I work on bikes in general it is a job and I need to get paid. I have sometimes done things for certain folks I know but labor needs to be paid. I don't might charity work, but I am retired, and I need to earn a few dollars. This person I did this for is a friend and I have road with him but still charge to take care of his bike. He is an attorney and did legal work for me and I certainly paid him for that.
Deacon Mark

On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
>>>>
>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
>>>>
>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
>>>>
>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
>>>>
>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
>>>>
>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>
>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
>>>
>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
>>>
>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
>> monthly).
>>
>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
>> is not a qualitative difference.
>>
>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
>>
>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
>> prices accordingly.
>>

>
> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
>

Yes, a lot has changed.
The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
compelling features not available when you bought yours.

p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 10:03:29 AM UTC-7, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 10:29:05 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> > > >>
> > > >> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> > > >>
> > > >> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> > > >>
> > > >> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard.. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> > > >>
> > > >> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> > > >>
> > > >> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> > > >> Deacon Mark
> > > >
> > > > I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> > > >
> > > > As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> > > >
> > > Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> > > standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> > > monthly).
> > >
> > > The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> > > the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> > > same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> > > is not a qualitative difference.
> > >
> > > Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> > > either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> > > attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> > > went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> > >
> > > Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> > > prices accordingly.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
> Russell when I work on bikes in general it is a job and I need to get paid. I have sometimes done things for certain folks I know but labor needs to be paid. I don't might charity work, but I am retired, and I need to earn a few dollars. This person I did this for is a friend and I have road with him but still charge to take care of his bike. He is an attorney and did legal work for me and I certainly paid him for that.

I would just ignore comments from Seaton. He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about if he thinks that TIG welded Waterford "Racing" models are welded by the same far less experienced people on the Gunnar line. Were you to look at the Gunnar and Waterford "Racing" you could tell the difference both in appearance and measurements. Keeping metal straight when applying welding temperatures requires people who know every phase of the science. But he has a lugged Waterford (probably a touring frame) brazed with a material he knows not and will offer opinions.

If you are charging people to work on their bikes make sure that they operate properly when you're finished. You wouldn't want to chance them falling because of something you did on their bikes.

This morning I started work on my Basso to repair the problems. The quick releases will have to be replaced with actual Campy so that they don't slip. I decided to use the normal downtube shifter adjusters since the so-called adjusters I bought are not adjusters at all but fake.

I pulled the handlebar out from the stem and indeed it was NOT 26 mm. It was 25.6. I have a 26 but it doesn't have the grooves to sink the wires so that there aren't any lumps in the bar tape. Well, I will have to live with that. simply inserting the correct side and the bar locked tightly at low torque.

I am going to have to replace the outer cables and make them several inches longer to use the normal adjusters. I will know better than to try and use newer stuff that I haven't actually held in my own hands. Another one of the parts I was going to use showed measurements to two decimal places and when I got them they were so far under that that they simply slipped through the loops. Getting the covers off of the downtube shifter lugs is becoming a problem, so I just let is set for awhile vice grips usually work on that sort of thing though you have to be careful not to scratch the paint.

The single pivot rear brake feels good in the workstand but badly in operation. and it makes a sound like it is loose or something. It isn't but I will replace it with the dual pivot.

The Aliverti is due sometime between now and next Tuesday. ANYTHING shipped from Italy to the smallest part takes much longer to get than things from China. Of course the Italian parts are way higher quality. The moral of my story is to build traditional steel bikes in traditional ways. The quill stem and Campy quick releases are absolutely necessary for horizontal drop-outs. Just a year later they were using vertical drop-outs and the quick releases didn't have that pressure on them. And I wouldn't have bandages on my knee.

One of the problems of riding through Stanford University is that there are things laying in the street. One of the friends I was riding with picked up a staple in his tire. He rides the Continental Sport which is a $20 tire so it flatted instantly. With luck we had just arrived at the coffee shop so I saved us a table while the other rider got us coffee and the flat was repaired. He had a slightly smaller pump than the one I used to carry and it took 200 strokes to get to riding pressure.

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:03:29 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 10:29:05 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> > > >>
> > > >> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> > > >>
> > > >> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> > > >>
> > > >> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard.. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> > > >>
> > > >> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> > > >>
> > > >> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> > > >> Deacon Mark
> > > >
> > > > I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> > > >
> > > > As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> > > >
> > > Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> > > standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> > > monthly).
> > >
> > > The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> > > the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> > > same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> > > is not a qualitative difference.
> > >
> > > Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> > > either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> > > attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> > > went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> > >
> > > Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> > > prices accordingly.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
> Russell when I work on bikes in general it is a job and I need to get paid. I have sometimes done things for certain folks I know but labor needs to be paid. I don't might charity work, but I am retired, and I need to earn a few dollars. This person I did this for is a friend and I have road with him but still charge to take care of his bike. He is an attorney and did legal work for me and I certainly paid him for that.
> Deacon Mark

As I said, bike work I do for friends and family is donated time by me. As for the lawyer friend you fixed the bike for. I also have ridden with a lawyer biker I call a friend. He did legal work for me. Will and mortgage and selling house. I paid him a reduced rate for each of those services. Friend discount. I have not done any bike mechanic work for him, but if I did, it would be donated. Labor, not the parts. I'd charge him for parts purchased. Similar to bike work I have done for other friends. And they repay me with kindness or buying me a meal or a gift certificate. I've also done carpentry work, electrical, plumbing for friends and family. No money changed hands.

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> >>>>
> >>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train.. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> >>>>
> >>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> >>>>
> >>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> >>>>
> >>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> >>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>
> >>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> >>>
> >>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> >>>
> >> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> >> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> >> monthly).
> >>
> >> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> >> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> >> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> >> is not a qualitative difference.
> >>
> >> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> >> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> >> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> >> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> >>
> >> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> >> prices accordingly.
> >>
>
> >
> > Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
> >
> Yes, a lot has changed.
> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
>
> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash.. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.

> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>
>>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
>>>>>
>>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
>>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
>>>> monthly).
>>>>
>>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
>>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
>>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
>>>> is not a qualitative difference.
>>>>
>>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
>>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
>>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
>>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
>>>>
>>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
>>>> prices accordingly.
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
>>>
>> Yes, a lot has changed.
>> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
>> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
>>
>> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
>
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
>

Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
leap forward in metallurgy from 753.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:54:01 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> > > > the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> > > > same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> > > > is not a qualitative difference.
> > > >
> > > > Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> > > > either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> > > > attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> > > > went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> > > >
> > > > Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> > > > prices accordingly.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Andrew Muzi
> > > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> I would just ignore comments from Seaton. He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about if he thinks that TIG welded Waterford "Racing" models are welded by the same far less experienced people on the Gunnar line. Were you to look at the Gunnar and Waterford "Racing" you could tell the difference both in appearance and measurements. Keeping metal straight when applying welding temperatures requires people who know every phase of the science. But he has a lugged Waterford (probably a touring frame) brazed with a material he knows not and will offer opinions.

Tommy, I'll take Andy's proclamation over yours. Gunnar and Waterford frames are built by the same people.

I don't think Reynolds 753 has ever been used for a touring frame Tommy. Its lighter weight and more delicate nature is not appropriate for touring frames. Something a thinking person would know. Here is an article on Reynolds 753. It came in two models. Racing and Track. And Reynolds 753 is always silver brazed. Not brass brazed. Due to the higher heat of melting brass would lose the heat treatment of the 753 tubes. Silver melts at a lower temperature. Less than brass and less than the high temp needed to temper the 753 tubes.

https://raleigh-sb4059.com/2017/05/17/the-sbdu-and-their-use-of-reynolds-753-reynolds-753r-and-reynolds-753t/
"Reynolds divided the new 753 into ‘753R‘ with the ‘R‘ meaning ‘Race‘ and marketed as a tube for road frames, and ‘753T‘ where the ‘T‘ stood for ‘Track‘ and was marketed as a lighter gauge tube for Track use."

>
> If you are charging people to work on their bikes make sure that they operate properly when you're finished. You wouldn't want to chance them falling because of something you did on their bikes.
>
> This morning I started work on my Basso to repair the problems. The quick releases will have to be replaced with actual Campy so that they don't slip. I decided to use the normal downtube shifter adjusters since the so-called adjusters I bought are not adjusters at all but fake.
>
> I pulled the handlebar out from the stem and indeed it was NOT 26 mm. It was 25.6. I have a 26 but it doesn't have the grooves to sink the wires so that there aren't any lumps in the bar tape. Well, I will have to live with that. simply inserting the correct side and the bar locked tightly at low torque.
>
> I am going to have to replace the outer cables and make them several inches longer to use the normal adjusters. I will know better than to try and use newer stuff that I haven't actually held in my own hands. Another one of the parts I was going to use showed measurements to two decimal places and when I got them they were so far under that that they simply slipped through the loops. Getting the covers off of the downtube shifter lugs is becoming a problem, so I just let is set for awhile vice grips usually work on that sort of thing though you have to be careful not to scratch the paint.
>
> The single pivot rear brake feels good in the workstand but badly in operation. and it makes a sound like it is loose or something. It isn't but I will replace it with the dual pivot.
>
> The Aliverti is due sometime between now and next Tuesday. ANYTHING shipped from Italy to the smallest part takes much longer to get than things from China. Of course the Italian parts are way higher quality. The moral of my story is to build traditional steel bikes in traditional ways. The quill stem and Campy quick releases are absolutely necessary for horizontal drop-outs. Just a year later they were using vertical drop-outs and the quick releases didn't have that pressure on them. And I wouldn't have bandages on my knee.
>
> One of the problems of riding through Stanford University is that there are things laying in the street. One of the friends I was riding with picked up a staple in his tire. He rides the Continental Sport which is a $20 tire so it flatted instantly. With luck we had just arrived at the coffee shop so I saved us a table while the other rider got us coffee and the flat was repaired. He had a slightly smaller pump than the one I used to carry and it took 200 strokes to get to riding pressure.

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 5:44:00 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard.. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> >>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> >>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> >>>> monthly).
> >>>>
> >>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> >>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> >>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> >>>> is not a qualitative difference.
> >>>>
> >>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> >>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> >>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> >>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> >>>>
> >>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> >>>> prices accordingly.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
> >>>
> >> Yes, a lot has changed.
> >> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
> >> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
> >>
> >> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
> >
> > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days.. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
> >
> Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
> leap forward in metallurgy from 753.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

No. I just went out to the machine shed and looked at it. It is a 1200 model. Has a Reynolds 753 sticker on the seattube down by the bottom bracket.. I bought it in January 1998. Online bike shop who purchased bike frames from various places and then sold them as complete bikes by building them up with groupsets. Your choice. He had access to Shimano and Campagnolo groups and all the parts necessary for whole bikes. My Waterford 1200 frame was one or two or three or four or five years old by the time I bought it. New old stock from somewhere. I have never contacted Waterford with the serial number to determine when my frame was built. Maybe I will do that someday. Its a Candy Red color. Beautiful. Short point lugs.

On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 16:00:07 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:54:01 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
>> > > > the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
>> > > > same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
>> > > > is not a qualitative difference.
>> > > >
>> > > > Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
>> > > > either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
>> > > > attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
>> > > > went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
>> > > >
>> > > > Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
>> > > > prices accordingly.
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Andrew Muzi
>> > > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> I would just ignore comments from Seaton. He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about if he thinks that TIG welded Waterford "Racing" models are welded by the same far less experienced people on the Gunnar line. Were you to look at the Gunnar and Waterford "Racing" you could tell the difference both in appearance and measurements. Keeping metal straight when applying welding temperatures requires people who know every phase of the science. But he has a lugged Waterford (probably a touring frame) brazed with a material he knows not and will offer opinions.
>
>Tommy, I'll take Andy's proclamation over yours. Gunnar and Waterford frames are built by the same people.
>
>I don't think Reynolds 753 has ever been used for a touring frame Tommy. Its lighter weight and more delicate nature is not appropriate for touring frames. Something a thinking person would know. Here is an article on Reynolds 753. It came in two models. Racing and Track. And Reynolds 753 is always silver brazed. Not brass brazed. Due to the higher heat of melting brass would lose the heat treatment of the 753 tubes. Silver melts at a lower temperature. Less than brass and less than the high temp needed to temper the 753 tubes.
>
>https://raleigh-sb4059.com/2017/05/17/the-sbdu-and-their-use-of-reynolds-753-reynolds-753r-and-reynolds-753t/
>"Reynolds divided the new 753 into ‘753R‘ with the ‘R‘ meaning ‘Race‘ and marketed as a tube for road frames, and ‘753T‘ where the ‘T‘ stood for ‘Track‘ and was marketed as a lighter gauge tube for Track use."
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> If you are charging people to work on their bikes make sure that they operate properly when you're finished. You wouldn't want to chance them falling because of something you did on their bikes.
>>
>> This morning I started work on my Basso to repair the problems. The quick releases will have to be replaced with actual Campy so that they don't slip. I decided to use the normal downtube shifter adjusters since the so-called adjusters I bought are not adjusters at all but fake.
>>
>> I pulled the handlebar out from the stem and indeed it was NOT 26 mm. It was 25.6. I have a 26 but it doesn't have the grooves to sink the wires so that there aren't any lumps in the bar tape. Well, I will have to live with that. simply inserting the correct side and the bar locked tightly at low torque.
>>
>> I am going to have to replace the outer cables and make them several inches longer to use the normal adjusters. I will know better than to try and use newer stuff that I haven't actually held in my own hands. Another one of the parts I was going to use showed measurements to two decimal places and when I got them they were so far under that that they simply slipped through the loops. Getting the covers off of the downtube shifter lugs is becoming a problem, so I just let is set for awhile vice grips usually work on that sort of thing though you have to be careful not to scratch the paint.
>>
>> The single pivot rear brake feels good in the workstand but badly in operation. and it makes a sound like it is loose or something. It isn't but I will replace it with the dual pivot.
>>
>> The Aliverti is due sometime between now and next Tuesday. ANYTHING shipped from Italy to the smallest part takes much longer to get than things from China. Of course the Italian parts are way higher quality. The moral of my story is to build traditional steel bikes in traditional ways. The quill stem and Campy quick releases are absolutely necessary for horizontal drop-outs. Just a year later they were using vertical drop-outs and the quick releases didn't have that pressure on them. And I wouldn't have bandages on my knee.
>>
>> One of the problems of riding through Stanford University is that there are things laying in the street. One of the friends I was riding with picked up a staple in his tire. He rides the Continental Sport which is a $20 tire so it flatted instantly. With luck we had just arrived at the coffee shop so I saved us a table while the other rider got us coffee and the flat was repaired. He had a slightly smaller pump than the one I used to carry and it took 200 strokes to get to riding pressure.

Tommy's statement (above) that "Keeping metal straight when applying
welding temperatures requires people who know every phase of the
science." rather illustrates his ignorance.

You see, when you weld a metal you actually melt it and, usually, add
a melted "filler" metal... and when you heat a metal to it's melting
temperature it expands and knowing all sorts of ""science" won't
change things the tiniest little bit.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/2/2022 6:11 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 5:44:00 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
>>>>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
>>>>>> monthly).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
>>>>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
>>>>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
>>>>>> is not a qualitative difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
>>>>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
>>>>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
>>>>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
>>>>>> prices accordingly.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, a lot has changed.
>>>> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
>>>> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
>>>>
>>>> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
>>>
>>> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>> I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
>>>
>> Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
>> leap forward in metallurgy from 753.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> No. I just went out to the machine shed and looked at it. It is a 1200 model. Has a Reynolds 753 sticker on the seattube down by the bottom bracket. I bought it in January 1998. Online bike shop who purchased bike frames from various places and then sold them as complete bikes by building them up with groupsets. Your choice. He had access to Shimano and Campagnolo groups and all the parts necessary for whole bikes. My Waterford 1200 frame was one or two or three or four or five years old by the time I bought it. New old stock from somewhere. I have never contacted Waterford with the serial number to determine when my frame was built. Maybe I will do that someday. Its a Candy Red color. Beautiful. Short point lugs.
>

'about 5 years old' explains that.

Here you go:
https://waterfordbikes.com/w/support/serial-numbers/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/2/2022 1:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> This morning I started work on my Basso to repair the problems. The quick releases will have to be replaced with actual Campy so that they don't slip. I decided to use the normal downtube shifter adjusters since the so-called adjusters I bought are not adjusters at all but fake...
>
> I pulled the handlebar out from the stem and indeed it was NOT 26 mm. It was 25.6. ...
>
> I am going to have to replace the outer cables and make them several inches longer to use the normal adjusters. I will know better than to try and use newer stuff that I haven't actually held in my own hands. Another one of the parts I was going to use showed measurements to two decimal places and when I got them they were so far under that that they simply slipped through the loops....
>
> The single pivot rear brake feels good in the workstand but badly in operation. and it makes a sound like it is loose or something. ...

_SO_ many problems!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 8:03:01 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/2/2022 6:11 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 5:44:00 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> >>>>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> >>>>>> monthly).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> >>>>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> >>>>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> >>>>>> is not a qualitative difference.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> >>>>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> >>>>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> >>>>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> >>>>>> prices accordingly.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Yes, a lot has changed.
> >>>> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
> >>>> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
> >>>>
> >>>> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
> >>>
> >>> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >>> I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
> >>>
> >> Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
> >> leap forward in metallurgy from 753.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > No. I just went out to the machine shed and looked at it. It is a 1200 model. Has a Reynolds 753 sticker on the seattube down by the bottom bracket. I bought it in January 1998. Online bike shop who purchased bike frames from various places and then sold them as complete bikes by building them up with groupsets. Your choice. He had access to Shimano and Campagnolo groups and all the parts necessary for whole bikes. My Waterford 1200 frame was one or two or three or four or five years old by the time I bought it. New old stock from somewhere. I have never contacted Waterford with the serial number to determine when my frame was built. Maybe I will do that someday. Its a Candy Red color. Beautiful. Short point lugs.
> >
> 'about 5 years old' explains that.
>
> Here you go:
> https://waterfordbikes.com/w/support/serial-numbers/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andy, sadly your Waterford serial number explanation was not much or any help to me. I made my way out to the shed. With a headlamp, flashlight, and magnifying glass. Turned the bike over and looked at the serial numbers. Then had to go back inside to get the reading glasses. Made out a string of 6 stamped numbers. 1/4 inch in size. Easy to read. And to the left of that was a raised embossed number (similar size), and some very faint stamped numbers and maybe maybe maybe a letter. Not sure because I was guessing a lot on the letter and whether it was a letter or number or just blank space. The faint numbers were smaller, maybe 1/8" size.

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 3:44:00 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard.. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> >>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> >>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> >>>> monthly).
> >>>>
> >>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> >>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> >>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> >>>> is not a qualitative difference.
> >>>>
> >>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> >>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> >>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> >>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> >>>>
> >>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> >>>> prices accordingly.
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
> >>>
> >> Yes, a lot has changed.
> >> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
> >> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
> >>
> >> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
> >
> > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days.. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
> >
> Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
> leap forward in metallurgy from 753.

Not that lugged steel bikes are bad since I am going back to them, but they are heavy. And newer parts like the 11 and 12 speed that have far better engineering in them really don't tighten up easily on small diameter bars and you have to be careful on carbon bars because they can break the bar. I threw away the carbon stem that was giving me slipping and have a new one with more surface area in the clamp area.

Waterford "Racing" is superlight and I wouldn't know whether to trust them with my weight. The Moser is about as light as I would trust. The only trouble with it is minimal clearances. The Basso is perhaps an inch longer and it is in the rear triangle. Because it is lugged it is a lb in total heavier. I have completely stopped even thinking about weight if I can pick the finished bike up.

On 9/3/2022 1:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 3:44:00 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
>>>>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
>>>>>> monthly).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
>>>>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
>>>>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
>>>>>> is not a qualitative difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
>>>>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
>>>>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
>>>>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
>>>>>> prices accordingly.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, a lot has changed.
>>>> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
>>>> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
>>>>
>>>> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
>>>
>>> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>> I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
>>>
>> Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
>> leap forward in metallurgy from 753.
>
> Not that lugged steel bikes are bad since I am going back to them, but they are heavy. And newer parts like the 11 and 12 speed that have far better engineering in them really don't tighten up easily on small diameter bars and you have to be careful on carbon bars because they can break the bar. I threw away the carbon stem that was giving me slipping and have a new one with more surface area in the clamp area.
>
> Waterford "Racing" is superlight and I wouldn't know whether to trust them with my weight. The Moser is about as light as I would trust. The only trouble with it is minimal clearances. The Basso is perhaps an inch longer and it is in the rear triangle. Because it is lugged it is a lb in total heavier. I have completely stopped even thinking about weight if I can pick the finished bike up.
>

Current road handlebars are 23.5mm diameter at the brake
lever. There are not 'small' or 'large' handlebars in that
regard.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 12:39:54 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/3/2022 1:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 3:44:00 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> >>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> >>>>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> >>>>>> monthly).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> >>>>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> >>>>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> >>>>>> is not a qualitative difference.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> >>>>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> >>>>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> >>>>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> >>>>>> prices accordingly.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Yes, a lot has changed.
> >>>> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
> >>>> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
> >>>>
> >>>> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
> >>>
> >>> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >>> I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
> >>>
> >> Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
> >> leap forward in metallurgy from 753.
> >
> > Not that lugged steel bikes are bad since I am going back to them, but they are heavy. And newer parts like the 11 and 12 speed that have far better engineering in them really don't tighten up easily on small diameter bars and you have to be careful on carbon bars because they can break the bar. I threw away the carbon stem that was giving me slipping and have a new one with more surface area in the clamp area.
> >
> > Waterford "Racing" is superlight and I wouldn't know whether to trust them with my weight. The Moser is about as light as I would trust. The only trouble with it is minimal clearances. The Basso is perhaps an inch longer and it is in the rear triangle. Because it is lugged it is a lb in total heavier. I have completely stopped even thinking about weight if I can pick the finished bike up.
> >
> Current road handlebars are 23.5mm diameter at the brake
> lever. There are not 'small' or 'large' handlebars in that
> regard.

Cinelli quill stems want a 26 mm bar. Today I rode my Moser again and the new carbon stem continued to rotate no matter how tight it was. I've already ordered a quill stem and have a proper bar already here.

The 58.4 mm bar slips in the Cinelli stem. Maybe the 1R stem would work but I don't have one of those around.

On 9/3/2022 2:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 12:39:54 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/3/2022 1:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 3:44:00 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
>>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
>>>>>>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
>>>>>>>> monthly).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
>>>>>>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
>>>>>>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
>>>>>>>> is not a qualitative difference.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
>>>>>>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
>>>>>>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
>>>>>>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
>>>>>>>> prices accordingly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, a lot has changed.
>>>>>> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
>>>>>> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
>>>>>
>>>>> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>> I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
>>>>>
>>>> Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
>>>> leap forward in metallurgy from 753.
>>>
>>> Not that lugged steel bikes are bad since I am going back to them, but they are heavy. And newer parts like the 11 and 12 speed that have far better engineering in them really don't tighten up easily on small diameter bars and you have to be careful on carbon bars because they can break the bar. I threw away the carbon stem that was giving me slipping and have a new one with more surface area in the clamp area.
>>>
>>> Waterford "Racing" is superlight and I wouldn't know whether to trust them with my weight. The Moser is about as light as I would trust. The only trouble with it is minimal clearances. The Basso is perhaps an inch longer and it is in the rear triangle. Because it is lugged it is a lb in total heavier. I have completely stopped even thinking about weight if I can pick the finished bike up.
>>>
>> Current road handlebars are 23.5mm diameter at the brake
>> lever. There are not 'small' or 'large' handlebars in that
>> regard.
>
> Cinelli quill stems want a 26 mm bar. Today I rode my Moser again and the new carbon stem continued to rotate no matter how tight it was. I've already ordered a quill stem and have a proper bar already here.
>
> The 58.4 mm bar slips in the Cinelli stem. Maybe the 1R stem would work but I don't have one of those around.
>

Utterly different.

Handlebar center at the stem can be 25mm, 25.4mm, 25.8mm,
26.0mm, 26.4mm or 31.8mm. bon chance.

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 2:37:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/3/2022 2:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 12:39:54 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/3/2022 1:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 3:44:00 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> >>>>>>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> >>>>>>>> monthly).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> >>>>>>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> >>>>>>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> >>>>>>>> is not a qualitative difference.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> >>>>>>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> >>>>>>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> >>>>>>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> >>>>>>>> prices accordingly.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today.. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, a lot has changed.
> >>>>>> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
> >>>>>> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >>>>> I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
> >>>> leap forward in metallurgy from 753.
> >>>
> >>> Not that lugged steel bikes are bad since I am going back to them, but they are heavy. And newer parts like the 11 and 12 speed that have far better engineering in them really don't tighten up easily on small diameter bars and you have to be careful on carbon bars because they can break the bar. I threw away the carbon stem that was giving me slipping and have a new one with more surface area in the clamp area.
> >>>
> >>> Waterford "Racing" is superlight and I wouldn't know whether to trust them with my weight. The Moser is about as light as I would trust. The only trouble with it is minimal clearances. The Basso is perhaps an inch longer and it is in the rear triangle. Because it is lugged it is a lb in total heavier. I have completely stopped even thinking about weight if I can pick the finished bike up.
> >>>
> >> Current road handlebars are 23.5mm diameter at the brake
> >> lever. There are not 'small' or 'large' handlebars in that
> >> regard.
> >
> > Cinelli quill stems want a 26 mm bar. Today I rode my Moser again and the new carbon stem continued to rotate no matter how tight it was. I've already ordered a quill stem and have a proper bar already here.
> >
> > The 58.4 mm bar slips in the Cinelli stem. Maybe the 1R stem would work but I don't have one of those around.
> >
> Utterly different.
>
> Handlebar center at the stem can be 25mm, 25.4mm, 25.8mm,
> 26.0mm, 26.4mm or 31.8mm. bon chance.
>
> But you wrote above about 11/12 Ergos not clamping on a
> small handlebar. That did not happen. Bars are 23.8mm at the
> lever.

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 7:49:25 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 2:37:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/3/2022 2:45 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 12:39:54 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 9/3/2022 1:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 3:44:00 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>> On 9/2/2022 5:39 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:50:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 9/1/2022 10:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:42:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On 9/1/2022 6:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> Yesterday a cyclist I know wanted me to tune up his bike he knew I did that for some and ask. He has a Gunnar Fastlane with mechanical disk brakes.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> First thing obvious the chain was rusty and probably no lube on it is who knows how long. Well the chain was shot stretched but cassette looked ok and chainring great ( sram force 22 spd setup ). I bought and installed a new sram 1130 chain and completely cleaned and degreased the bike. It was not muddy but just the general build up around BB, pedals and drive train. Then I cleaned the whole frame with degrease. Nice looking Gunnar and first one I have ever encounter in person. Not a real heavy bike but of course not light road racer.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Then I put and new rear shifting cable, the front was fine shifted good so I left it alone. Then in put a new front brake cable in as it seemed to be a bit spongy and might as well. Then adjusted brakes and shifting. The shifting did not need hardly any tweaking. This was my first time at replacing sram cables and in fact using sram. My impression is it is fine but prefer Shimano but could maybe get used to the double tap.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> The mechanical brakes were really the most time consuming just because I like brakes to be quick response not much pull before they bite hard. No rubbing but frankly the hydraulic brakes I worked on were better.. Re-wrapped one side of the bar tape. I also put the wheels on a stand and while they basically were true I made 2 nipple turns on each wheel just to get them perfect, both around the value stem.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> My take away is Gunnar makes a fine bike probably as good as any for the money. Would love to try one of their pure road bikes. I learned about sram and they work bike shifts great. No need of a new cassette of really anything else unless you just want all new bar tape. The housing was fine it was good quality and after cable change not need to go farther.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> So I have $45 in parts and I charged the guy $125 total my labor the rest. What do you think that seems fair not sure what the bike shop would charge but seems would be well about $150 including parts. I was in 24 hours I suppose it took me about 4 hours including the time to go to shop for the chain purchase. Anyone here ride a Gunnar?
> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> I own and ride a Waterford. The parent brand of Gunnar. I am guessing the same guys who braze the lugs for Waterford also TIG weld the Gunnar frames. I think of my Waterford as a high end bike maker. So also think the Gunnar frames are made to the same standard. Only thing going against Gunnar is they are TIG welded. Gunnar brand was created to make cheaper frames. Kind of like Mercury was the slightly higher end brand over Ford. And Cadillac or Oldsmobile was a higher brand than Chevrolet. So Gunnar is the lower brand. I have a friend with a Gunnar with disk brakes. He likes it. Fine bikes. Andy sells Gunnar frames.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> As for charging for your mechanic work. I only do bike work for friends or relatives. Relatives by blood or marriage, so no choice there.. As for friends, they are friends. And I ride bikes with them too. But I would consider them a friend even if I never rode with them. With the person you did bike work for, I am not sure they are a friend or not. Or just someone you met and know from riding. So maybe a different category. For my friends, I do not charge for the labor part. And if I happen to have the parts needed on hand, like cables or bar tape, then would not charge for that either. Minor part costs. For your $45 parts, sure charge the bike owner. For the labor portion, your call. You charged about $20 per hour roughly. Reasonable to me.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Gunnars are less expensive only due to the format of
> > >>>>>>>> standard models (15), sizes (11) and colors (9, which change
> > >>>>>>>> monthly).
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> The Gunnar TIG material, a modern air-hardening steel, is
> > >>>>>>>> the same as a TIG Waterford, welded by the same staff on the
> > >>>>>>>> same tables, painted in the same shop with same paint. There
> > >>>>>>>> is not a qualitative difference.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Waterfords are each custom designed and built, and involve
> > >>>>>>>> either significant or overwhelming amounts of personal
> > >>>>>>>> attention, which is expensive. I've sold Waterfords which
> > >>>>>>>> went through five sets of drawings/specs before being finalized.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Silver braze lug Waterfords are a different matter and
> > >>>>>>>> prices accordingly.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Andy, my comments on Waterford and Gunnar comparisons are based upon what I knew and did back when I bought my Waterford. January 1998. At that time, Waterford only made lugged frames. Brass and silver brazing. And Waterford had standard frame sizes. My frame is a standard 58cm c-t for instance. Not custom sized. Today things are different. Waterford has both lugged and TIG frames today. And sizing for Waterford may be custom only today. No standard sizes. Times changed. I am still speaking as if it is 1998.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Yes, a lot has changed.
> > >>>>>> The biggest change is to air hardening steels with have some
> > >>>>>> compelling features not available when you bought yours.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> p.s. Most Waterfords sold here are TIG not lug now.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >>>>> I treasure my Waterford because it is lugged. Old school. Good old days. Back when they knew how to make bikes. Or some such nonsense like that. And my Waterford is Reynolds 753. Silver brazed. The best of the best of the best of the best. The pinnacle. Can't get no better than that. And don't try to convince me of new technology and air hardening steel. Hogwash. I have the bestest of the 1970s. Nothing got better after that. Just like the Sony Trinitron and Curtis Mathes televisions were the best of the best. And Atari and Mattel Intellivision were the only good video games ever made. And a four barrel carb is the only good way to get gas into an engine.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Your Waterford is more likely Reynolds 853, which is a real
> > >>>> leap forward in metallurgy from 753.
> > >>>
> > >>> Not that lugged steel bikes are bad since I am going back to them, but they are heavy. And newer parts like the 11 and 12 speed that have far better engineering in them really don't tighten up easily on small diameter bars and you have to be careful on carbon bars because they can break the bar. I threw away the carbon stem that was giving me slipping and have a new one with more surface area in the clamp area.
> > >>>
> > >>> Waterford "Racing" is superlight and I wouldn't know whether to trust them with my weight. The Moser is about as light as I would trust. The only trouble with it is minimal clearances. The Basso is perhaps an inch longer and it is in the rear triangle. Because it is lugged it is a lb in total heavier. I have completely stopped even thinking about weight if I can pick the finished bike up.
> > >>>
> > >> Current road handlebars are 23.5mm diameter at the brake
> > >> lever. There are not 'small' or 'large' handlebars in that
> > >> regard.
> > >
> > > Cinelli quill stems want a 26 mm bar. Today I rode my Moser again and the new carbon stem continued to rotate no matter how tight it was. I've already ordered a quill stem and have a proper bar already here.
> > >
> > > The 58.4 mm bar slips in the Cinelli stem. Maybe the 1R stem would work but I don't have one of those around.
> > >
> > Utterly different.
> >
> > Handlebar center at the stem can be 25mm, 25.4mm, 25.8mm,
> > 26.0mm, 26.4mm or 31.8mm. bon chance.
> >
> > But you wrote above about 11/12 Ergos not clamping on a
> > small handlebar. That did not happen. Bars are 23.8mm at the
> > lever.
> I haven't measure the aluminum bar at the lever but it appears to be 25.4 like the stem of the bar. And I can't tighten that Torx coupling enough to keep the lever from rotating if you twist it purposely. Now, it doesn't move about in use so I don't worry about it. The 26 mm bar I have is round bends and not "ergo" so the levers go on very easy and I think that the diameter at the levers is a little larger because the levers go on tight petty easily.