Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.

This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.

Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.

I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike

I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.

But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives.. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
>
> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
>

Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays

I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.

> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
>
> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
>
> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
>
> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.

On 9/14/2022 8:14 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
>>
>> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
>>
>
> Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
> https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
> https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays
>
> I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
> https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
> In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
>>
>> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
>>
>> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
>>
>> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.

Both styles (cast in and brazed on) are and were common.
Neither shifts nearly as well as a nylon plate. Both may be
filed clear and drilled for a standard cable plate.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 5:18:50 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/14/2022 8:14 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
> >>
> >> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
> >>
> >
> > Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
> > https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
> > https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays
> >
> > I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
> > https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
> > In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
> >>
> >> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
> >>
> >> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
> >>
> >> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.
> Both styles (cast in and brazed on) are and were common.
> Neither shifts nearly as well as a nylon plate. Both may be
> filed clear and drilled for a standard cable plate.

The sheer ignorance of Seaton shows more and more with every posting. He clearly only posts in an attempt to criticize my comments. Only he could believe that steel on steel friction is preferable to a nylon carrier.

I have to look closely at the BB to see if grinding the directors off is practical. It is too dark to see them now and my memory is that the BB has several slots that might interfere with the BB strength. Instead I might use Teflon coated wires but I don't like those much. I think that the wires inside of that coating are steel and not stainless.

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 9:34:24 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 5:18:50 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/14/2022 8:14 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
> > >>
> > >> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
> > > https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
> > > https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays
> > >
> > > I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
> > > https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
> > > In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
> > >>
> > >> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
> > >>
> > >> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
> > >>
> > >> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.
> > Both styles (cast in and brazed on) are and were common.
> > Neither shifts nearly as well as a nylon plate. Both may be
> > filed clear and drilled for a standard cable plate.
> The sheer ignorance of Seaton shows more and more with every posting. He clearly only posts in an attempt to criticize my comments. Only he could believe that steel on steel friction is preferable to a nylon carrier.
>

Tommy, look at the last link I put into my prior post. The cable guides are clearly brazed onto the bottom bracket shell after the shell was cast. They are a trough on top of the shell. The bike in the link has friction downtube shifters. And friction front and rear derailleurs. The friction between the cable and the guide trough isn't much of a concern. All you are doing is balancing the springs in the downtube shift levers with the springs in the derailleurs. How much friction the cable has in the guide can be adjusted by tightening the downtube levers or loosening them.

The first two links in my prior post have the guides cast into the bottom bracket shell. Underneath the shell. I would not be surprised in that situation if the cables do not run through a short piece of plastic to ease any friction.

> I have to look closely at the BB to see if grinding the directors off is practical. It is too dark to see them now and my memory is that the BB has several slots that might interfere with the BB strength. Instead I might use Teflon coated wires but I don't like those much. I think that the wires inside of that coating are steel and not stainless.

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:18:50 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/14/2022 8:14 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
> >>
> >> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
> >>
> >
> > Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
> > https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
> > https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays
> >
> > I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
> > https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
> > In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
> >>
> >> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
> >>
> >> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
> >>
> >> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.
> Both styles (cast in and brazed on) are and were common.
> Neither shifts nearly as well as a nylon plate. Both may be
> filed clear and drilled for a standard cable plate.

I've got two bikes with brazed on bottom bracket cable guides. OTROH, my Cannondale has the nylon
plate under the bottom bracket. The disadvantage I see with the nylon plate is that it very gradually
accumulatesroad crud and resulting friction. Since it's a "boiling the frog" situation, I think I put up
with degraded shifting for quite a while until I think to clean things up. The bikes with guides above
the BB don't suffer that problem nearly as much.

So I'm thinking the nylon may start better, but finish worse than above BB guides - at least for me, a
guy who's not diligent about frequent maintenance and sparkling clean bikes..

- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 4:52:20 PM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:18:50 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/14/2022 8:14 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
> > >>
> > >> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
> > > https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
> > > https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays
> > >
> > > I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
> > > https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
> > > In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
> > >>
> > >> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
> > >>
> > >> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
> > >>
> > >> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.
> > Both styles (cast in and brazed on) are and were common.
> > Neither shifts nearly as well as a nylon plate. Both may be
> > filed clear and drilled for a standard cable plate.
> I've got two bikes with brazed on bottom bracket cable guides. OTROH, my Cannondale has the nylon
> plate under the bottom bracket. The disadvantage I see with the nylon plate is that it very gradually
> accumulatesroad crud and resulting friction. Since it's a "boiling the frog" situation, I think I put up
> with degraded shifting for quite a while until I think to clean things up.. The bikes with guides above
> the BB don't suffer that problem nearly as much.
>
> So I'm thinking the nylon may start better, but finish worse than above BB guides - at least for me, a
> guy who's not diligent about frequent maintenance and sparkling clean bikes.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA. My experience is that it can take quite some ‘abuse’ before is causes shifting problems. Most of the time a leaking waterbottle with sugary water is the cause of problems, crud not so much. Above BB guides are not immune to sugary water.

Lou

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 9:39:20 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 4:52:20 PM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:18:50 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 9/14/2022 8:14 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > >> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
> > > >>
> > > >> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
> > > > https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
> > > > https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays
> > > >
> > > > I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
> > > > https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
> > > > In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
> > > >>
> > > >> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
> > > >>
> > > >> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
> > > >>
> > > >> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.
> > > Both styles (cast in and brazed on) are and were common.
> > > Neither shifts nearly as well as a nylon plate. Both may be
> > > filed clear and drilled for a standard cable plate.
> > I've got two bikes with brazed on bottom bracket cable guides. OTROH, my Cannondale has the nylon
> > plate under the bottom bracket. The disadvantage I see with the nylon plate is that it very gradually
> > accumulatesroad crud and resulting friction. Since it's a "boiling the frog" situation, I think I put up
> > with degraded shifting for quite a while until I think to clean things up. The bikes with guides above
> > the BB don't suffer that problem nearly as much.
> >
> > So I'm thinking the nylon may start better, but finish worse than above BB guides - at least for me, a
> > guy who's not diligent about frequent maintenance and sparkling clean bikes.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA. My experience is that it can take quite some ‘abuse’ before is causes shifting problems. Most of the time a leaking waterbottle with sugary water is the cause of problems, crud not so much. Above BB guides are not immune to sugary water.

One would think that anyone that has so much cycling experience as Francis claims would have actually looked at nylon cable directors. The front derailleur is the one that takes the most abuse and yet I have yet to have to replace a BB nylon cable director. Whereas, I have had steel ones wear deep groves in which inner cables would catch and start cutting wires.

On 9/16/2022 11:39 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 4:52:20 PM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:18:50 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 9/14/2022 8:14 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
>>>>>
>>>>> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
>>>> https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
>>>> https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays
>>>>
>>>> I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
>>>> https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
>>>> In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
>>>>>
>>>>> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
>>>>>
>>>>> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.
>>> Both styles (cast in and brazed on) are and were common.
>>> Neither shifts nearly as well as a nylon plate. Both may be
>>> filed clear and drilled for a standard cable plate.
>> I've got two bikes with brazed on bottom bracket cable guides. OTROH, my Cannondale has the nylon
>> plate under the bottom bracket. The disadvantage I see with the nylon plate is that it very gradually
>> accumulatesroad crud and resulting friction. Since it's a "boiling the frog" situation, I think I put up
>> with degraded shifting for quite a while until I think to clean things up. The bikes with guides above
>> the BB don't suffer that problem nearly as much.
>>
>> So I'm thinking the nylon may start better, but finish worse than above BB guides - at least for me, a
>> guy who's not diligent about frequent maintenance and sparkling clean bikes.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA. My experience is that it can take quite some ‘abuse’ before is causes shifting problems. Most of the time a leaking waterbottle with sugary water is the cause of problems, crud not so much. Above BB guides are not immune to sugary water.
>
> Lou
>

I don't know but I do know that the whole group has a wide
range of properties- thermal stability, plasticity, abrasion
resistance and so on. I tested 12 material samples and
relied on an expert for these:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/cleat18d.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 10:36:11 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/16/2022 11:39 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 4:52:20 PM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:18:50 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 9/14/2022 8:14 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
> >>>> https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
> >>>> https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
> >>>> https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
> >>>> In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.
> >>> Both styles (cast in and brazed on) are and were common.
> >>> Neither shifts nearly as well as a nylon plate. Both may be
> >>> filed clear and drilled for a standard cable plate.
> >> I've got two bikes with brazed on bottom bracket cable guides. OTROH, my Cannondale has the nylon
> >> plate under the bottom bracket. The disadvantage I see with the nylon plate is that it very gradually
> >> accumulatesroad crud and resulting friction. Since it's a "boiling the frog" situation, I think I put up
> >> with degraded shifting for quite a while until I think to clean things up. The bikes with guides above
> >> the BB don't suffer that problem nearly as much.
> >>
> >> So I'm thinking the nylon may start better, but finish worse than above BB guides - at least for me, a
> >> guy who's not diligent about frequent maintenance and sparkling clean bikes.
> >>
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA. My experience is that it can take quite some ‘abuse’ before is causes shifting problems. Most of the time a leaking waterbottle with sugary water is the cause of problems, crud not so much. Above BB guides are not immune to sugary water.
> >
> > Lou
> >
>
> I don't know but I do know that the whole group has a wide
> range of properties- thermal stability, plasticity, abrasion
> resistance and so on. I tested 12 material samples and
> relied on an expert for these:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/cleat18d.jpg
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
My Keo cleats have remarkable wear characteristics. The material used on the Look Delta pedals was pretty good but you had to replace the cleats a couple of times a year. at the moment I've had this set on for about 6 months and so far it isn't showing enough wear to mention.

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 12:39:20 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 4:52:20 PM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I've got two bikes with brazed on bottom bracket cable guides. OTROH, my Cannondale has the nylon
> > plate under the bottom bracket. The disadvantage I see with the nylon plate is that it very gradually
> > accumulatesroad crud and resulting friction. Since it's a "boiling the frog" situation, I think I put up
> > with degraded shifting for quite a while until I think to clean things up. The bikes with guides above
> > the BB don't suffer that problem nearly as much.
> >
> > So I'm thinking the nylon may start better, but finish worse than above BB guides - at least for me, a
> > guy who's not diligent about frequent maintenance and sparkling clean bikes.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA. My experience is that it can take quite some ‘abuse’ before is causes shifting problems. Most of the time a leaking waterbottle with sugary water is the cause of problems, crud not so much. Above BB guides are not immune to sugary water.

Of course I haven't tried to determine the type of plastic used in a bottom bracket cable guide. You're
right, it does take quite some abuse, or lack of maintenance. My point is that I've had cables suffer
friction at that point, and do so gradually enough that I didn't recognize the symptom nor the problem.
It was always caused by road grit. I've had less of that with the guides above the bottom bracket.
YMMV, as always.

- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 09:39:18 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA.
>Lou

Probably Nylon 66, which is a polyamide:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon_66>
"Nylon 66 ... is a type of polyamide or nylon".

Anything with Nylon in the name is a polyamide:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon>
"Nylon is a generic designation for a family of synthetic polymers
composed of polyamides (repeating units linked by amide links)."

A polyamide is a polymer where the repeating segments are linked by
amide bonds. Nylon 66 is extruded while Nylon 6 is cast.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:43:08 PM UTC+2, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 09:39:18 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA.
> >Lou
>
> Probably Nylon 66, which is a polyamide:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon_66>
> "Nylon 66 ... is a type of polyamide or nylon".
>
> Anything with Nylon in the name is a polyamide:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon>
> "Nylon is a generic designation for a family of synthetic polymers
> composed of polyamides (repeating units linked by amide links)."
>
> A polyamide is a polymer where the repeating segments are linked by
> amide bonds. Nylon 66 is extruded while Nylon 6 is cast.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I know I’m an engineer and I use it quite often in my designs. PA is cheap, excellent injection molding properties and wear resistant but not dimensional stable in humid conditions. Alternative is POM and for sliding applications with some teflon. I would use that for a BB guide.

Lou

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 11:43:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 09:39:18 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
><lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA.
>>Lou

>Probably Nylon 66, which is a polyamide:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon_66>
>"Nylon 66 ... is a type of polyamide or nylon".

Incidentally, both Nylon 6 and 66 are not UV resistant unless the
plastic is doped with graphite or something equally black. Are the
plates and cleats black plastic or off-white? If white, I would
expect them to eventually deteriorate in sunlight. I've noticed in
the Ty-Wraps I sometimes use for antennas, the white Nylon tends to
become hard and brittle before it totally falls about. That might be
what's binding the cables.

Also, Nylon tends to depolymerize (crumble) when exposed to isopropyl
alcohol, anti-freeze, chlorine, etc:
<https://www.calpaclab.com/nylon-chemical-compatibility-chart/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 12:52:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:43:08 PM UTC+2, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 09:39:18 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA.
>> >Lou
>>
>> Probably Nylon 66, which is a polyamide:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon_66>
>> "Nylon 66 ... is a type of polyamide or nylon".
>>
>> Anything with Nylon in the name is a polyamide:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon>
>> "Nylon is a generic designation for a family of synthetic polymers
>> composed of polyamides (repeating units linked by amide links)."
>>
>> A polyamide is a polymer where the repeating segments are linked by
>> amide bonds. Nylon 66 is extruded while Nylon 6 is cast.
>>

>I know I’m an engineer and I use it quite often in my designs. PA is cheap, excellent injection molding properties and wear resistant but not dimensional stable in humid conditions. Alternative is POM and for sliding applications with some teflon. I would use that for a BB guide.
>Lou

White or black Nylon 6 or 66? White will crumble when exposed to UV
(sunlight), while black graphite doped Nylon will do better. Teflon
is good stuff but tend to cold flow under pressure. I'm not sure if a
shifter or brake cable is sufficient to make it cold flow. If you mix
PTFE and Nylon 6, it will probably be ok.

I've only used POM (Delrin) for two injection molded gears. I don't
think the small sales volume for an improved bottom cable guide plate
will justify the cost of the mold.

I would suggest casting black Nylon 6 and glass beads to get better
wear resistance. I didn't know that it's available for 3D printing:
<https://www.weerg.com/en/global/materials-and-finishes/3d-printing/nylon/nylon-pa12-glass-beads-40>
"Nylon PA 12 40%GF (Polyamide 12) guarantees good mechanical
properties on all axes as well as resistance to wear, chemicals and
moisture absorption. Suitable to withstand demanding conditions, it is
recommended in all applications where thermal stability and structural
rigidity are required."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 9/16/2022 2:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 11:43:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 09:39:18 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Nylon (PolyAmide)? I doubt that it is PA.
>>> Lou
>
>> Probably Nylon 66, which is a polyamide:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon_66>
>> "Nylon 66 ... is a type of polyamide or nylon".
>
> Incidentally, both Nylon 6 and 66 are not UV resistant unless the
> plastic is doped with graphite or something equally black. Are the
> plates and cleats black plastic or off-white? If white, I would
> expect them to eventually deteriorate in sunlight. I've noticed in
> the Ty-Wraps I sometimes use for antennas, the white Nylon tends to
> become hard and brittle before it totally falls about. That might be
> what's binding the cables.
>
> Also, Nylon tends to depolymerize (crumble) when exposed to isopropyl
> alcohol, anti-freeze, chlorine, etc:
> <https://www.calpaclab.com/nylon-chemical-compatibility-chart/>
>
>

The original Vitus gear plate was black, as were the first
series Trek and Raleigh versions. Campagnolo are black.
Shimano are black, violet and blue variously.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 3:58:21 PM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Incidentally, both Nylon 6 and 66 are not UV resistant unless the
> plastic is doped with graphite or something equally black. Are the
> plates and cleats black plastic or off-white? If white, I would
> expect them to eventually deteriorate in sunlight. I've noticed in
> the Ty-Wraps I sometimes use for antennas, the white Nylon tends to
> become hard and brittle before it totally falls about. That might be
> what's binding the cables.

The cable guides being discussed are under the bottom bracket. Mine are black. But
I'd think they wouldn't get much UV down there in the direct shadow of the BB. Mine have
held upwell, AFAIK (I don't look at them very often) but then, the bike's only about 36 years old.

OTOH: Our house has a little balcony, with nice steel railings that I designed and welded up.
My wife wanted to hang some flower baskets from the rails. The clamps that came with the
baskets seemed kind of ugly and clumsy to use, so I decided to use thick black zip ties.
It wasn't an original idea. I'd seen those used to hold flower baskets on a bridge railing nearby.

The zip ties worked for maybe 5 years. Then one day we heard a huge bump out back. One of the
flower baskets had fallen into the flower bed below. The zip ties had failed, I assume through UV.

- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 16 Sep 2022 07:52:18 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 8:18:50 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/14/2022 8:14 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 2:41:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> Of course 35 minutes after I ask the USPS where my package is, it arrives. I don't know why they packed it the way that they did but the trash can is half filled with the packing material and it was a puzzle how to unwind plastic sheeting off of the tubes. Finally got the frame and fork out of there and I will make an appointment with the shop to chase the threads, install the headset and ultra torque cups. I could do this all but chasing the threads but I have to make it worth his while.
>> >>
>> >> This bike is a 62 and it does say what sort of Columbus tubing it is made out of but it is very light for the fork and frame. There are two little specks of missing paint underneath the derailleur chain stay It has one of those bottom brackets with the derailleur wire routers built in which is old style and a square steering head like DeRosa had I would have considered this an older frame but every other part of the frame is mid-90's. So I will assume that the builder was just using up parts in the bin.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Tommy, frame parts makers are still selling bottom bracket lugs today with cable guides. You can buy brand spanking new lugs today with cable guides.
>> > https://www.torchandfile.com/BB-SHELL-CLASSIC-286X286X222-wCABLE-GUIDE-STYLE-C-EA_p_1192.html
>> > https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/lugged-bb-shells/products/long-shen-lugged-bb-shell-for-standard-1-frame-28-6-seat-tube-28-6-downtube-22-2-round-chainstays
>> >
>> > I believe the more complicated guides that were a whole trough for the cable were brazed on separately to the bottom bracket shell. They were not forged/cast into the shell.
>> > https://lecycleur.com/belgian-bikes/charles-terryn-competition/
>> > In the picture section you can find a picture of the cable troughs above the bottom bracket shell. Both sides.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Just from looking at the geometry I will have to have Chris open the rear triangle to 130 mm. I suppose that dates the frame but that is a very minor change to a steel frame when you have the proper tools.
>> >>
>> >> I have to receive the rear derailleur arm and install it on the Record derailleur and put it back on the Basso and cut the wires and chain to fit That will finish that and I can then install the parts on the Aliverti I will strip all of the parts off of the C50 and install them on this beautiful bike
>> >>
>> >> I will then install the Centaur group on the C50 and I can't imagine a C50 hanging around for long. I bought the frameset the same hour it was listed. It too is in nearly perfect condition. Of course everyone is talking gravel bikes and the Cannondale I have hasn't had one inquiry.
>> >>
>> >> But selling three bikes two of which are very good popular bikes in seriously good condition won't take long. The Cannondale is 9 speed but it is Shimano Ultegra so if you sere stupid enough to upgrade, it would be easy enough.
>> Both styles (cast in and brazed on) are and were common.
>> Neither shifts nearly as well as a nylon plate. Both may be
>> filed clear and drilled for a standard cable plate.
>
>I've got two bikes with brazed on bottom bracket cable guides. OTROH, my Cannondale has the nylon
>plate under the bottom bracket. The disadvantage I see with the nylon plate is that it very gradually
>accumulatesroad crud and resulting friction. Since it's a "boiling the frog" situation, I think I put up
>with degraded shifting for quite a while until I think to clean things up. The bikes with guides above
>the BB don't suffer that problem nearly as much.
>
>So I'm thinking the nylon may start better, but finish worse than above BB guides - at least for me, a
>guy who's not diligent about frequent maintenance and sparkling clean bikes.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Like many problems mentioned here (seat post don't fit, handle bars
don't fit) I believe that bottom bracket cable guides must be an
almost negligible problem. Or at least I've got three bikes, two with
below the BB metal guides and one metal guide above and haven't had a
problem with any of them in at least 10 years.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 5:15:55 PM UTC-4, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 3:58:21 PM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Incidentally, both Nylon 6 and 66 are not UV resistant unless the
> > plastic is doped with graphite or something equally black. Are the
> > plates and cleats black plastic or off-white? If white, I would
> > expect them to eventually deteriorate in sunlight. I've noticed in
> > the Ty-Wraps I sometimes use for antennas, the white Nylon tends to
> > become hard and brittle before it totally falls about. That might be
> > what's binding the cables.
> The cable guides being discussed are under the bottom bracket. Mine are black. But
> I'd think they wouldn't get much UV down there in the direct shadow of the BB. Mine have
> held upwell, AFAIK (I don't look at them very often) but then, the bike's only about 36 years old.
>
> OTOH: Our house has a little balcony, with nice steel railings that I designed and welded up.
> My wife wanted to hang some flower baskets from the rails. The clamps that came with the
> baskets seemed kind of ugly and clumsy to use, so I decided to use thick black zip ties.
> It wasn't an original idea. I'd seen those used to hold flower baskets on a bridge railing nearby.
>
> The zip ties worked for maybe 5 years. Then one day we heard a huge bump out back. One of the
> flower baskets had fallen into the flower bed below. The zip ties had failed, I assume through UV.
>

Not just UV. Plastics have an annoying hydrophilic characteristic which can severely degrade it over time especially when exposed to UV and temperature extremes. Some of the standard ASTM weather tests subject the materials to a UV light source in a high RH environment where the light source is cycled. This allows the test specimen to heat up and cool, which promotes condensation. The two tests I'm most familiar with are G154 and G155 - the difference being in the UV source. It's widely acknowledged that UV/RH cycling much more accurately reveals weather aging characteristics. 5 years in western PA sounds about right for a non-UV enhanced ABS ziptie, but lab testing does not directly correlate to real-world experience. They recommend testing different materials under the exact same test conditions to determine which one fares better.

Another extreme plastics test is used in the Hazardous Location - Explosive Atmosphere testing protocols (IEC 60079-0). The test specimen is soaked at 95C and 95% RH for 30 days, then removed and cold soaked at the lowest operating temperature of the product for 24 hours (in our case this is -40C). Then the specimen is subjected to impact and/or drop testing (whichever is appropriate) after which IP testing is performed. To pass it must meet the predefined IP rating. In the case of explosive atmospheres they generally require dust rating of 5, unless the specific atmosphere is a combustible dust environment in which case they require 6. The liquid rating is much more forgiving, usually a 4, unless there is a requirement for a higher splash rating and/or a submersion rating. Most of our products are IP66/8, though we do have one product which was tested to a liquid rating of 9K, since it could be subjected to a steam pressure wash (analogous to the SAE J1455 pressure wash spec).