Hello all,

I have recently seen a bike with what looked like an unusual spoke
pattern. Take a rather ordinary wheel, with 32 spokes in a 3-cross
pattern. Now, imagine you take all the left-side spokes, with their
holes in the hub and rim, and shift them around the axle by something
like 5°. The result is a wheel with spoke holes that are not evenly
spaced, with an overall look that is a bit difficult to describe.

Have you already seen something similar? It seems like such wheels
require specific matching hubs and rims, which seems like a big
repairability drawback. Do you know if there is a point in designing
such wheels?

My guess is that, by having pairs of left and right spokes close to each
other, it could reduce the torsion on the rim, and perhaps make it last
longer. That said, I doubt it is really interesting with on-rim braking,
since the rim's life is not limited by its resistence to internal
torsion, but by the braking abrasion.

Cheers,

--
Tanguy

On 9/19/2022 10:56 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have recently seen a bike with what looked like an unusual spoke
> pattern. Take a rather ordinary wheel, with 32 spokes in a 3-cross
> pattern. Now, imagine you take all the left-side spokes, with their
> holes in the hub and rim, and shift them around the axle by something
> like 5°. The result is a wheel with spoke holes that are not evenly
> spaced, with an overall look that is a bit difficult to describe.
>
> Have you already seen something similar? It seems like such wheels
> require specific matching hubs and rims, which seems like a big
> repairability drawback. Do you know if there is a point in designing
> such wheels?
>
> My guess is that, by having pairs of left and right spokes close to each
> other, it could reduce the torsion on the rim, and perhaps make it last
> longer. That said, I doubt it is really interesting with on-rim braking,
> since the rim's life is not limited by its resistence to internal
> torsion, but by the braking abrasion.
>
> Cheers,
>

Paired spokes like this?
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPARTACU.JPG

In our opinion they are 'aesthetic differentiation' with no
actual strength/ weight/ longevity advantages.

You're right that replacement paired-spoke rims are a
limited subset of rims.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:38:44 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/19/2022 10:56 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I have recently seen a bike with what looked like an unusual spoke
> > pattern. Take a rather ordinary wheel, with 32 spokes in a 3-cross
> > pattern. Now, imagine you take all the left-side spokes, with their
> > holes in the hub and rim, and shift them around the axle by something
> > like 5°. The result is a wheel with spoke holes that are not evenly
> > spaced, with an overall look that is a bit difficult to describe.
> >
> > Have you already seen something similar? It seems like such wheels
> > require specific matching hubs and rims, which seems like a big
> > repairability drawback. Do you know if there is a point in designing
> > such wheels?
> >
> > My guess is that, by having pairs of left and right spokes close to each
> > other, it could reduce the torsion on the rim, and perhaps make it last
> > longer. That said, I doubt it is really interesting with on-rim braking,
> > since the rim's life is not limited by its resistence to internal
> > torsion, but by the braking abrasion.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> Paired spokes like this?
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPARTACU.JPG
>
> In our opinion they are 'aesthetic differentiation' with no
> actual strength/ weight/ longevity advantages.

IOW: Fashion!

Fashion is weird and powerful.

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 7:23:16 PM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:38:44 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/19/2022 10:56 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > I have recently seen a bike with what looked like an unusual spoke
> > > pattern. Take a rather ordinary wheel, with 32 spokes in a 3-cross
> > > pattern. Now, imagine you take all the left-side spokes, with their
> > > holes in the hub and rim, and shift them around the axle by something
> > > like 5°. The result is a wheel with spoke holes that are not evenly
> > > spaced, with an overall look that is a bit difficult to describe.
> > >
> > > Have you already seen something similar? It seems like such wheels
> > > require specific matching hubs and rims, which seems like a big
> > > repairability drawback. Do you know if there is a point in designing
> > > such wheels?
> > >
> > > My guess is that, by having pairs of left and right spokes close to each
> > > other, it could reduce the torsion on the rim, and perhaps make it last
> > > longer. That said, I doubt it is really interesting with on-rim braking,
> > > since the rim's life is not limited by its resistence to internal
> > > torsion, but by the braking abrasion.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > Paired spokes like this?
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPARTACU.JPG
> >
> > In our opinion they are 'aesthetic differentiation' with no
> > actual strength/ weight/ longevity advantages.
> IOW: Fashion!
>
> Fashion is weird and powerful.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

All the discussion about spoke patterns is something from the past. Current rims and spokes can handle all those fashion spoke patterns.

Lou

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 11:07:04 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 7:23:16 PM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:38:44 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 9/19/2022 10:56 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> > > > Hello all,
> > > >
> > > > I have recently seen a bike with what looked like an unusual spoke
> > > > pattern. Take a rather ordinary wheel, with 32 spokes in a 3-cross
> > > > pattern. Now, imagine you take all the left-side spokes, with their
> > > > holes in the hub and rim, and shift them around the axle by something
> > > > like 5°. The result is a wheel with spoke holes that are not evenly
> > > > spaced, with an overall look that is a bit difficult to describe.
> > > >
> > > > Have you already seen something similar? It seems like such wheels
> > > > require specific matching hubs and rims, which seems like a big
> > > > repairability drawback. Do you know if there is a point in designing
> > > > such wheels?
> > > >
> > > > My guess is that, by having pairs of left and right spokes close to each
> > > > other, it could reduce the torsion on the rim, and perhaps make it last
> > > > longer. That said, I doubt it is really interesting with on-rim braking,
> > > > since the rim's life is not limited by its resistence to internal
> > > > torsion, but by the braking abrasion.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > Paired spokes like this?
> > > http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPARTACU.JPG
> > >
> > > In our opinion they are 'aesthetic differentiation' with no
> > > actual strength/ weight/ longevity advantages.
> > IOW: Fashion!
> >
> > Fashion is weird and powerful.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> All the discussion about spoke patterns is something from the past. Current rims and spokes can handle all those fashion spoke patterns.

Indeed: https://www.probikekit.com/bicycle-wheels/campagnolo-shamal-ultra-c17-clincher-wheelset/11275987.html That is hardly done for fashion.

AMuzi, 2022-09-19 18:38+0200:
> Paired spokes like this?
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPARTACU.JPG

Kind of, yes, although with a more usual number of spokes, 32 or 28
IIRC.

> In our opinion they are 'aesthetic differentiation' with no
> actual strength/ weight/ longevity advantages.
>
> You're right that replacement paired-spoke rims are a
> limited subset of rims.

Fashion and look at the expense of functionnality then. I suspected so.
That was on a publicly available bike from a rather known brand, which
suggests they design their bikes by following too much advice from style
designers and not enough from engineers.

Thanks for the explanation, that had puzzled me for a while!

--
Tanguy

Lou Holtman, 2022-09-19 20:07+0200:
> All the discussion about spoke patterns is something from the past.
> Current rims and spokes can handle all those fashion spoke patterns.

Well, no. At least, not the pattern I was talking about, since it
requires a rim with unevenly spaced holes, and a matching hub.

And I am not certain of wht you mean by ”all those fashion spoke
patterns”, but I would consider a radial pattern as something
fashionable, that I would never try on my own bike. At least, not while
accelerating or braking.

--
Tanguy

On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 07:39:26 -0000 (UTC), Tanguy Ortolo
<tanguy@ortolo.eu> wrote:

>Lou Holtman, 2022-09-19 20:07+0200:
>> All the discussion about spoke patterns is something from the past.
>> Current rims and spokes can handle all those fashion spoke patterns.
>
>Well, no. At least, not the pattern I was talking about, since it
>requires a rim with unevenly spaced holes, and a matching hub.
>
>And I am not certain of wht you mean by ”all those fashion spoke
>patterns”, but I would consider a radial pattern as something
>fashionable, that I would never try on my own bike. At least, not while
>accelerating or braking.

Marketing to "look at me" types. Fake air scoops and rear deck
"wings" on cars...

On 9/20/2022 2:58 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 07:39:26 -0000 (UTC), Tanguy Ortolo
> <tanguy@ortolo.eu> wrote:
>
>> Lou Holtman, 2022-09-19 20:07+0200:
>>> All the discussion about spoke patterns is something from the past.
>>> Current rims and spokes can handle all those fashion spoke patterns.
>>
>> Well, no. At least, not the pattern I was talking about, since it
>> requires a rim with unevenly spaced holes, and a matching hub.
>>
>> And I am not certain of wht you mean by ”all those fashion spoke
>> patterns”, but I would consider a radial pattern as something
>> fashionable, that I would never try on my own bike. At least, not while
>> accelerating or braking.
>
> Marketing to "look at me" types. Fake air scoops and rear deck
> "wings" on cars...
>

There are worse examples than paired spokes:
https://www.mtbr.com/attachments/ecwdirtckdtf-jpg.434416/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 8:15:22 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/20/2022 2:58 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 07:39:26 -0000 (UTC), Tanguy Ortolo
> > <tan...@ortolo.eu> wrote:
> >
> >> Lou Holtman, 2022-09-19 20:07+0200:
> >>> All the discussion about spoke patterns is something from the past.
> >>> Current rims and spokes can handle all those fashion spoke patterns.
> >>
> >> Well, no. At least, not the pattern I was talking about, since it
> >> requires a rim with unevenly spaced holes, and a matching hub.
> >>
> >> And I am not certain of wht you mean by ”all those fashion spoke
> >> patterns”, but I would consider a radial pattern as something
> >> fashionable, that I would never try on my own bike. At least, not while
> >> accelerating or braking.
> >
> > Marketing to "look at me" types. Fake air scoops and rear deck
> > "wings" on cars...
> >
> There are worse examples than paired spokes:
> https://www.mtbr.com/attachments/ecwdirtckdtf-jpg.434416/
> --

IIRC that was as much of an attempt to stiffen the wheel as it was for aesthetics, sort of like the old "tied and soldered" technique track riders used to use. Neither trick really helped the performance at all.

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 8:15:22 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/20/2022 2:58 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 07:39:26 -0000 (UTC), Tanguy Ortolo
> > <tan...@ortolo.eu> wrote:
> >
> >> Lou Holtman, 2022-09-19 20:07+0200:
> >>> All the discussion about spoke patterns is something from the past.
> >>> Current rims and spokes can handle all those fashion spoke patterns.
> >>
> >> Well, no. At least, not the pattern I was talking about, since it
> >> requires a rim with unevenly spaced holes, and a matching hub.
> >>
> >> And I am not certain of wht you mean by ”all those fashion spoke
> >> patterns”, but I would consider a radial pattern as something
> >> fashionable, that I would never try on my own bike. At least, not while
> >> accelerating or braking.
> >
> > Marketing to "look at me" types. Fake air scoops and rear deck
> > "wings" on cars...
> >
> There are worse examples than paired spokes:
> https://www.mtbr.com/attachments/ecwdirtckdtf-jpg.434416/

True, but coming up with something worse doesn't absolve something that's bad, or
something that's useless except for fashion.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 07:15:18 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/20/2022 2:58 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 07:39:26 -0000 (UTC), Tanguy Ortolo
>> <tanguy@ortolo.eu> wrote:
>>
>>> Lou Holtman, 2022-09-19 20:07+0200:
>>>> All the discussion about spoke patterns is something from the past.
>>>> Current rims and spokes can handle all those fashion spoke patterns.
>>>
>>> Well, no. At least, not the pattern I was talking about, since it
>>> requires a rim with unevenly spaced holes, and a matching hub.
>>>
>>> And I am not certain of wht you mean by ”all those fashion spoke
>>> patterns”, but I would consider a radial pattern as something
>>> fashionable, that I would never try on my own bike. At least, not while
>>> accelerating or braking.
>>
>> Marketing to "look at me" types. Fake air scoops and rear deck
>> "wings" on cars...
>>
>
>There are worse examples than paired spokes:
>https://www.mtbr.com/attachments/ecwdirtckdtf-jpg.434416/

OMG

On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 07:15:18 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> There are worse examples than paired spokes:
> https://www.mtbr.com/attachments/ecwdirtckdtf-jpg.434416/

It's a cool pattern, though. I envision it worked in gold tinsel on
matte black. With another spider worked on the inner ring of holes.

(Needle-lace spider, rather than bobbin-lace spider.)

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 8:56:20 AM UTC-7, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have recently seen a bike with what looked like an unusual spoke
> pattern. Take a rather ordinary wheel, with 32 spokes in a 3-cross
> pattern. Now, imagine you take all the left-side spokes, with their
> holes in the hub and rim, and shift them around the axle by something
> like 5°. The result is a wheel with spoke holes that are not evenly
> spaced, with an overall look that is a bit difficult to describe.
>
> Have you already seen something similar? It seems like such wheels
> require specific matching hubs and rims, which seems like a big
> repairability drawback. Do you know if there is a point in designing
> such wheels?
>
> My guess is that, by having pairs of left and right spokes close to each
> other, it could reduce the torsion on the rim, and perhaps make it last
> longer. That said, I doubt it is really interesting with on-rim braking,
> since the rim's life is not limited by its resistence to internal
> torsion, but by the braking abrasion.

There is a thing called a "crows foot" pattern.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=crows+foot+spoke+pattern&ia=web

AMuzi, 2022-09-20 14:15+0200:
> There are worse examples than paired spokes:
> https://www.mtbr.com/attachments/ecwdirtckdtf-jpg.434416/

This is not worse for maintenance, though, as it uses standard rim and
hub. To replace the rim, you have to find one with the same ERD and the
same number of holes, that is all.

With paired spokes, you have to find a rim with the same ERD, same
number of holes and exact specific hole positions. In fact, the exact
same rim model.

--
Tanguy