Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
by Andre Jute

Seal drag, or even more generically "hub drag", turning the cranks when a Rohloff-equipped bike is pushed is a common complaint on Rohloff fora, often under a presumption that it is an undesirable activity, or even indicative of a threat to an expensive component. Hey, that was my first response too when I was a Rohloff novice, before I thought the matter through.

But is it? I now take a different view. To me it is obviously indicative of high quality German engineering which thoughtfully took the decision to keep out dust by lightweight paper seals. There are also practical uses for this seal drag, to which I shall return.

There are standard setups to measure bearing drag, for instance a dynamometer can compare the friction loss in internal combustion engines which theoretically should put out the same shaft horses or BMEP or whatever measure turns up your wick -- but by the time you get the motor in a car on a track, that considerable amount of work by an expensive white-coat and capital-intensive equipment normally turns out to be wasted because poof! the differences disappear into more urgent feedbacks. And that is starting with big numbers, where a difference could easily be a whole unit even if it is a fraction of a percent. Anyway, in automobile racing or commercial consumer car development, you can't afford not to know, so you must do the work even if only to prove to second-guessers that you considered all possibilities.

On a bike, with generally small numbers to start with, not so much. With such small numbers, I like tests that multiply the differences on the whole machine in use. Note, I don't say "magnify" but multiply. Coast-down tests do this well. Of course, that's a loaded test, but to my mind that's the test that really counts, especially with a machine as well-built as the Rohloff hub gearbox. Chalo Colina was right when he quipped that a Rohloff gearbox starts being run-in about the time a Shimano Nexus box lies itself down to die -- I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles. I broke two Nexus boxes a long way before that, between the two of them, but on the other hand in The Netherlands there are Nexus boxes running well enough after a hundreds thousand klicks of neglect, so the official MBTF of Nexus boxes (whatever it may be -- I'm giving this from memory) sits on a very wide normal distribution. With nothing but anecdotes to go by, I imagine that the normal distribution of the life of Rohloff hub gearboxes will be skewed towards the high end, lotta miles. Basically, nobody knows the MBTF of a Rohloff box, not even Herr Rohloff, who has torn down some particularly high-mileage boxes, and discovered no great wear.

Also, counting anecdotes, these dragging seals are either a universal Rohloff "problem" or the owners of the gearboxes with dragging seals are abnormally articulate! So, yeah, if these dragging seals are indicative of some state threatening the lifespan of a Rohloff box, I want to multiply it to where it is a large number so I can make detailed comparisons.

But the truth is, I don't think we're ever going to know. Again, statistically, I bet the majority of Rohloff Speedhub 14s have less than 10,000km/6000m on them, while we clearly have much more than enough anecdotal evidence from a wide variety of riding circumstances that the Rohloff shrugs off such minor use, and is capable of multiples of that distance. Thus, these dragging seals are not a short-term problem, and measuring microwatts on a stand (on an upside down bike with the free oil in a place it normally isn't, as has been suggested, causing a definitely uncommon windage load) will just raise more questions than deliver answers, hence my preference for a loaded coast-down test with the bike in its normal orientation carrying its normal load -- at which point I'm pretty certain the "problem" will disappear, which is why I haven't bothered doing the test.

I confidently expect this question to reoccur again and again and again.

A personal note: I actually welcome the seal drag on the Rohloff as a very useful third hand. I use Magura rim hydraulic brakes on my electrified bike, and these hydraulics are sealed for life, so the brake cutout cannot work by changes in fluid pressure; instead it works by breaking a magnetic contact which operates by 4x magnets stuck onto the brake levers and housings with Pritt's evergummy glue-clay, a real pain to set up if disturbed. The other day, with around 11,000km on the Rohloff, the magnetics went out of whack. The non-drive side of my bike is strongly braced in case I ever want to fit a disc brake (no such chance -- I love the progressive operation of the rim hydraulics), and to fit a kickstand stand capable of holding up the 170kg load rating of the bike. You can see the three rear stays of a cross frame bike, and the punched (drillium!) brace, and other fittings which provide further triangulated bracing, by paging down on this PDF until you reach a page devoted to photographs of the frame end, which I publish so you can see that you shouldn't follow me in abusing any bike which wasn't specifically designed to take bike-abnormal loads at the non-drive rear side; my Kranich can withstand more twisting force between the head tube and the rear frame-ends than a humongous Rolls-Royce motorcar's monocoque; doing what I do could cost you your bike's warranty:
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
So to adjust the cutouts, I tilt the bike on the stand until the rear wheel is clear of the tiles, run the motor on the thumb throttle, let the thumb throttle go and, with the electronic "gearbox" in its lowest automatic (pedelec*) setting of 1, the seal drag in the Rohloff keeps the pedals turning via the chain and with them the rear wheel, where a sensor picks up the movement and keeps feeding the motor juice (perpetual motion, anyone?) while I adjust the magnets on the brake levers and housings until separating them cuts out the motor.

Rohloff seal drag to the rescue! I wouldn't give it up for all the tea in China.

*For innocents abroad, "pedelec" is a condition in which motor assistance is proportional to the speed at which you turn the pedals, so the seal-drag speed, pulling the pedals around at a low speed, is just right for adjustments which otherwise would require another person's hands or acrobatics with tie wraps on the brakes and the thumb throttle. In the software with my Bafang/8FUN BB01 installation, there is a lower speed, for parking the bike or climbing stairs, called "P", but it is accessed by pressing and holding a button on the D965 control set button group, so it too would require a third hand. In theory I can also plug in a generic computer controller to keep the wheel turning but that is too much bother as I operate Macs and would have to bring down a PC from the loft three stories up to plug in; the Rohloff seal drag is a handy, quick substitute which doesn't require you to turn off any fail-safe modes.

Copyright © 2022 Andre Jute

On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
>by Andre Jute
>
>I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.

A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
no longer be repaired.

What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
failure:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
"Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
(average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."

However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
will be no maintenance.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 4:03:41 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
> >by Andre Jute
> >
> >I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.
> A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
> time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
> consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
> no longer be repaired.
>
> What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
> long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
> failure:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
> "Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
> between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
> normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
> (average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
> repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
> expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."
>
> However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
> in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
> will be no maintenance.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
Thanks, Jeff. Now that is the right kind of fact-check. I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses with layers of eiderdowns. Rohloff service consists only of an oil change once a year or every 5,000km plus changing the grease in the EXT klickbox (where the two pull-pull cables' impetus makes 90 degree turn directly into the gearbox at the rear hub) but the klickbox service interval, given high quality gooey stuff (I use Phil's waterproof, which discolours visibly when it is contaminated and loses its potency) is grotesquely short at 500km, so I've worked towards making it 5K, same as the main oil service. That's it until you require a cable change, which I haven't in 12K km.
>
There's no other service on my bike. I don't clean the chain or lube it. Out of sight, out of mind inside a Chainglider. It runs two Rohloff service intervals (in my use) on the factory lube, and then I throw it off without even inspecting or measuring it. The two chains I did measure were good (less than 0.5mm wear) to 4500km. I change tyres at 8500 to 9000km intervals though the Big Apples I use are good to twice that if you run them until the thorn-proofing shows blue through the black "rubber", as encouraged by Schwalbe, but I'd rather not be bothered with flats because I'm too cheap to spend fifty or sixty bucks on a new set of tyres. In practice the tyres are changed when I change the oil. The Magura brake blocks for their rim hydraulics easily go 10K because I don't bother with comfort braking and generally ride in absent or very light traffic with drivers who know me, or whose wives at least know my wife. I'm considering running the tyres and brake blocks to whatever oil service falls nearest 13K km. Everything else on my bike is sealed for life and, since I buy only the best because in the long run it is the least wasteful way to proceed, it is very rare for a component to need replacement -- I can't remember the last time I replaced a component for wearing out rather than that I identified and acquired something better." It's thus as near a zero-service bike as one can come without making or buying a sealed-for-life hub gearbox: such a thing seems possible but very likely will be too heavy for bicycle use and is thus is a contradiction in terms.
>
Andre Jute
I don't subscribe to the shibboleth that a cyclist's commitment is measured by his suffering on his bike or his dirty fingernails off it.
>
* I just remembered. The replaced component was a thin but very comfortable set of handgrips from the Finnish bicycle parts distributor, Hermann -- on a bike I replaced in 2004, so before 18 years ago. The current handgrips on my everyday bike, a Utopia Kranich (on which Hermann's was the standard no-cost grips -- I still have the pair that came on the Kranich as spares), are Brooks' leather grips, the edge-on rings of thick saddle leather being held together in cast aluminium ends by miniature bicycle spokes; they're 13 or 14 years old, very comfortable, and show no signs of wear.

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:05:27 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 4:03:41 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
> > >by Andre Jute
> > >
> > >I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.
> > A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
> > time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
> > consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
> > no longer be repaired.
> >
> > What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
> > long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
> > failure:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
> > "Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
> > between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
> > normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
> > (average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
> > repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
> > expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."
> >
> > However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
> > in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
> > will be no maintenance.
> >
> > --
> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> >
> Thanks, Jeff. Now that is the right kind of fact-check. I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses with layers of eiderdowns. Rohloff service consists only of an oil change once a year or every 5,000km plus changing the grease in the EXT klickbox (where the two pull-pull cables' impetus makes 90 degree turn directly into the gearbox at the rear hub) but the klickbox service interval, given high quality gooey stuff (I use Phil's waterproof, which discolours visibly when it is contaminated and loses its potency) is grotesquely short at 500km, so I've worked towards making it 5K, same as the main oil service. That's it until you require a cable change, which I haven't in 12K km.
> >
> There's no other service on my bike. I don't clean the chain or lube it. Out of sight, out of mind inside a Chainglider. It runs two Rohloff service intervals (in my use) on the factory lube, and then I throw it off without even inspecting or measuring it. The two chains I did measure were good (less than 0.5mm wear) to 4500km. I change tyres at 8500 to 9000km intervals though the Big Apples I use are good to twice that if you run them until the thorn-proofing shows blue through the black "rubber", as encouraged by Schwalbe, but I'd rather not be bothered with flats because I'm too cheap to spend fifty or sixty bucks on a new set of tyres. In practice the tyres are changed when I change the oil. The Magura brake blocks for their rim hydraulics easily go 10K because I don't bother with comfort braking and generally ride in absent or very light traffic with drivers who know me, or whose wives at least know my wife. I'm considering running the tyres and brake blocks to whatever oil service falls nearest 13K km. Everything else on my bike is sealed for life and, since I buy only the best because in the long run it is the least wasteful way to proceed, it is very rare for a component to need replacement -- I can't remember the last time I replaced a component for wearing out rather than that I identified and acquired something better." It's thus as near a zero-service bike as one can come without making or buying a sealed-for-life hub gearbox: such a thing seems possible but very likely will be too heavy for bicycle use and is thus is a contradiction in terms.
> >
> Andre Jute
> I don't subscribe to the shibboleth that a cyclist's commitment is measured by his suffering on his bike or his dirty fingernails off it.
> >
> * I just remembered. The replaced component was a thin but very comfortable set of handgrips from the Finnish bicycle parts distributor, Hermann -- on a bike I replaced in 2004, so before 18 years ago. The current handgrips on my everyday bike, a Utopia Kranich (on which Hermann's was the standard no-cost grips -- I still have the pair that came on the Kranich as spares), are Brooks' leather grips, the edge-on rings of thick saddle leather being held together in cast aluminium ends by miniature bicycle spokes; they're 13 or 14 years old, very comfortable, and show no signs of wear.
>
Here's a bicycle technical post, which the whiners on RBT claim they want, but no one has anything to contribute except Jeff.
>

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 14:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:05:27 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 4:03:41 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
>> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
>> > >by Andre Jute
>> > >
>> > >I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.
>> > A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
>> > time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
>> > consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
>> > no longer be repaired.
>> >
>> > What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
>> > long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
>> > failure:
>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
>> > "Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
>> > between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
>> > normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
>> > (average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
>> > repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
>> > expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."
>> >
>> > However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
>> > in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
>> > will be no maintenance.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>> >
>> Thanks, Jeff. Now that is the right kind of fact-check. I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses with layers of eiderdowns. Rohloff service consists only of an oil change once a year or every 5,000km plus changing the grease in the EXT klickbox (where the two pull-pull cables' impetus makes 90 degree turn directly into the gearbox at the rear hub) but the klickbox service interval, given high quality gooey stuff (I use
>Phil's waterproof, which discolours visibly when it is contaminated and loses its potency) is grotesquely short at 500km, so I've worked towards making it 5K, same as the main oil service. That's it until you require a cable change, which I haven't in 12K km.
>> >
>> There's no other service on my bike. I don't clean the chain or lube it. Out of sight, out of mind inside a Chainglider. It runs two Rohloff service intervals (in my use) on the factory lube, and then I throw it off without even inspecting or measuring it. The two chains I did measure were good (less than 0.5mm wear) to 4500km. I change tyres at 8500 to 9000km intervals though the Big Apples I use are good to twice that if you run them until the thorn-proofing shows blue through the black "rubber", as encouraged by Schwalbe, but I'd rather not be bothered with flats because I'm too cheap to spend fifty or sixty bucks on a new set of tyres. In practice the tyres are changed when I change the oil. The Magura brake blocks for their rim hydraulics easily go 10K because I don't bother with comfort braking and generally ride in absent or very light traffic with drivers who know me, or whose wives at least know my wife. I'm considering running the tyres and brake blocks to whatever oil
>service falls nearest 13K km. Everything else on my bike is sealed for life and, since I buy only the best because in the long run it is the least wasteful way to proceed, it is very rare for a component to need replacement -- I can't remember the last time I replaced a component for wearing out rather than that I identified and acquired something better." It's thus as near a zero-service bike as one can come without making or buying a sealed-for-life hub gearbox: such a thing seems possible but very likely will be too heavy for bicycle use and is thus is a contradiction in terms.
>> >
>> Andre Jute
>> I don't subscribe to the shibboleth that a cyclist's commitment is measured by his suffering on his bike or his dirty fingernails off it.
>> >
>> * I just remembered. The replaced component was a thin but very comfortable set of handgrips from the Finnish bicycle parts distributor, Hermann -- on a bike I replaced in 2004, so before 18 years ago. The current handgrips on my everyday bike, a Utopia Kranich (on which Hermann's was the standard no-cost grips -- I still have the pair that came on the Kranich as spares), are Brooks' leather grips, the edge-on rings of thick saddle leather being held together in cast aluminium ends by miniature bicycle spokes; they're 13 or 14 years old, very comfortable, and show no signs of wear.

>Here's a bicycle technical post, which the whiners on RBT claim they want, but no one has anything to contribute except Jeff.

Perhaps it's the superfluous rubbish under which your bicycle related
content is hidden? I read your initial article and gave up reading
about half way through. I forced myself to read your second article
all the way through, mostly because I expect a response to my
MTBF/MTTF correction. However, I had to re-read every sentence at
least 3 times because the topic would constantly change thanks to
multiple comma splices. I was literally lost. I couldn't remember
what the topic of any sentence was, much less the topic of the
article. The superfluous rubbish was just too much of a distraction.
If you remove the digressions, diversions, distraction, irrelevant
comments, un-necessary references, minutiae, and "flowery" language.

"Flowery writing can turn off readers"
<https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/opinion/story/2022-05-03/a-word-please-flowery-writing-can-turn-off-readers>

Here's an example of one of you comma splices:

"I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the
lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also
equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of
hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in
the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid
analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to
break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one
will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are
excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses
with layers of eiderdowns."

In one sentence, your topic swings from auto-correction, MTBF/MTTF,
Rohloffs, universal statistical validity, more Rohloff, German
engineering and ass covering, and whatever eiderdown might be. Do you
seriously expect ANYONE to follow your train derailment thoughts
through so many topic changes in one sentence? If you have a point to
make, make the point and then give the reader time to digest the point
by adding a full stop period. Then, proceed with the next topic
change and again come to a full stop allowing the reader time to
digest your point.

It's not my intent here to perform damage control on your writing
style. I think if you take my comments seriously, the solution is
obvious. If you expect people to read your bicycle related comments,
you should write in a manner similar to what your readers expect, are
accustomed to reading, and which they can easily understand. If you
need some practice, take your two previous postings, remove everything
that does not directly pertain to bicycles, cycling, and MTBF/MTTF,
and try reposting to RBT.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 15:08:50 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 14:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
><fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:05:27 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 4:03:41 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
>>> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
>>> > >by Andre Jute
>>> > >
>>> > >I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.
>>> > A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
>>> > time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
>>> > consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
>>> > no longer be repaired.
>>> >
>>> > What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
>>> > long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
>>> > failure:
>>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
>>> > "Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
>>> > between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
>>> > normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
>>> > (average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
>>> > repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
>>> > expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."
>>> >
>>> > However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
>>> > in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
>>> > will be no maintenance.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>>> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>>> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>>> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>>> >
>>> Thanks, Jeff. Now that is the right kind of fact-check. I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses with layers of eiderdowns. Rohloff service consists only of an oil change once a year or every 5,000km plus changing the grease in the EXT klickbox (where the two pull-pull cables' impetus makes 90 degree turn directly into the gearbox at the rear hub) but the klickbox service interval, given high quality gooey stuff (I use
>>Phil's waterproof, which discolours visibly when it is contaminated and loses its potency) is grotesquely short at 500km, so I've worked towards making it 5K, same as the main oil service. That's it until you require a cable change, which I haven't in 12K km.
>>> >
>>> There's no other service on my bike. I don't clean the chain or lube it. Out of sight, out of mind inside a Chainglider. It runs two Rohloff service intervals (in my use) on the factory lube, and then I throw it off without even inspecting or measuring it. The two chains I did measure were good (less than 0.5mm wear) to 4500km. I change tyres at 8500 to 9000km intervals though the Big Apples I use are good to twice that if you run them until the thorn-proofing shows blue through the black "rubber", as encouraged by Schwalbe, but I'd rather not be bothered with flats because I'm too cheap to spend fifty or sixty bucks on a new set of tyres. In practice the tyres are changed when I change the oil. The Magura brake blocks for their rim hydraulics easily go 10K because I don't bother with comfort braking and generally ride in absent or very light traffic with drivers who know me, or whose wives at least know my wife. I'm considering running the tyres and brake blocks to whatever oil
>>service falls nearest 13K km. Everything else on my bike is sealed for life and, since I buy only the best because in the long run it is the least wasteful way to proceed, it is very rare for a component to need replacement -- I can't remember the last time I replaced a component for wearing out rather than that I identified and acquired something better." It's thus as near a zero-service bike as one can come without making or buying a sealed-for-life hub gearbox: such a thing seems possible but very likely will be too heavy for bicycle use and is thus is a contradiction in terms.
>>> >
>>> Andre Jute
>>> I don't subscribe to the shibboleth that a cyclist's commitment is measured by his suffering on his bike or his dirty fingernails off it.
>>> >
>>> * I just remembered. The replaced component was a thin but very comfortable set of handgrips from the Finnish bicycle parts distributor, Hermann -- on a bike I replaced in 2004, so before 18 years ago. The current handgrips on my everyday bike, a Utopia Kranich (on which Hermann's was the standard no-cost grips -- I still have the pair that came on the Kranich as spares), are Brooks' leather grips, the edge-on rings of thick saddle leather being held together in cast aluminium ends by miniature bicycle spokes; they're 13 or 14 years old, very comfortable, and show no signs of wear.
>
>>Here's a bicycle technical post, which the whiners on RBT claim they want, but no one has anything to contribute except Jeff.
>
>Perhaps it's the superfluous rubbish under which your bicycle related
>content is hidden? I read your initial article and gave up reading
>about half way through. I forced myself to read your second article
>all the way through, mostly because I expect a response to my
>MTBF/MTTF correction. However, I had to re-read every sentence at
>least 3 times because the topic would constantly change thanks to
>multiple comma splices. I was literally lost. I couldn't remember
>what the topic of any sentence was, much less the topic of the
>article. The superfluous rubbish was just too much of a distraction.
>If you remove the digressions, diversions, distraction, irrelevant
>comments, un-necessary references, minutiae, and "flowery" language.
>
>"Flowery writing can turn off readers"
><https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/opinion/story/2022-05-03/a-word-please-flowery-writing-can-turn-off-readers>
>
>Here's an example of one of you comma splices:
>
>"I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the
>lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also
>equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of
>hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in
>the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid
>analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to
>break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one
>will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are
>excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses
>with layers of eiderdowns."
>
>In one sentence, your topic swings from auto-correction, MTBF/MTTF,
>Rohloffs, universal statistical validity, more Rohloff, German
>engineering and ass covering, and whatever eiderdown might be. Do you
>seriously expect ANYONE to follow your train derailment thoughts
>through so many topic changes in one sentence? If you have a point to
>make, make the point and then give the reader time to digest the point
>by adding a full stop period. Then, proceed with the next topic
>change and again come to a full stop allowing the reader time to
>digest your point.
>
>It's not my intent here to perform damage control on your writing
>style. I think if you take my comments seriously, the solution is
>obvious. If you expect people to read your bicycle related comments,
>you should write in a manner similar to what your readers expect, are
>accustomed to reading, and which they can easily understand. If you
>need some practice, take your two previous postings, remove everything
>that does not directly pertain to bicycles, cycling, and MTBF/MTTF,
>and try reposting to RBT.

Ah Jeff, but you are replying to a chap that habitually post a while
stream of subjects, delineated by comma's. The intent is, of course,
to avoid being caught out as no matter what you reply to he can always
show that somewhere in his post was something that you hadn't replied
to.

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 3:08:57 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 14:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:05:27 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 4:03:41 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> >> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
> >> > >by Andre Jute
> >> > >
> >> > >I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.
> >> > A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
> >> > time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
> >> > consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
> >> > no longer be repaired.
> >> >
> >> > What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
> >> > long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
> >> > failure:
> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
> >> > "Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
> >> > between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
> >> > normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
> >> > (average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
> >> > repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
> >> > expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."
> >> >
> >> > However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
> >> > in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
> >> > will be no maintenance.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> >> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> >> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> >> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> >> >
> >> Thanks, Jeff. Now that is the right kind of fact-check. I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses with layers of eiderdowns. Rohloff service consists only of an oil change once a year or every 5,000km plus changing the grease in the EXT klickbox (where the two pull-pull cables' impetus makes 90 degree turn directly into the gearbox at the rear hub) but the klickbox service interval, given high quality gooey stuff (I use
> >Phil's waterproof, which discolours visibly when it is contaminated and loses its potency) is grotesquely short at 500km, so I've worked towards making it 5K, same as the main oil service. That's it until you require a cable change, which I haven't in 12K km.
> >> >
> >> There's no other service on my bike. I don't clean the chain or lube it. Out of sight, out of mind inside a Chainglider. It runs two Rohloff service intervals (in my use) on the factory lube, and then I throw it off without even inspecting or measuring it. The two chains I did measure were good (less than 0.5mm wear) to 4500km. I change tyres at 8500 to 9000km intervals though the Big Apples I use are good to twice that if you run them until the thorn-proofing shows blue through the black "rubber", as encouraged by Schwalbe, but I'd rather not be bothered with flats because I'm too cheap to spend fifty or sixty bucks on a new set of tyres. In practice the tyres are changed when I change the oil. The Magura brake blocks for their rim hydraulics easily go 10K because I don't bother with comfort braking and generally ride in absent or very light traffic with drivers who know me, or whose wives at least know my wife. I'm considering running the tyres and brake blocks to whatever oil
> >service falls nearest 13K km. Everything else on my bike is sealed for life and, since I buy only the best because in the long run it is the least wasteful way to proceed, it is very rare for a component to need replacement -- I can't remember the last time I replaced a component for wearing out rather than that I identified and acquired something better." It's thus as near a zero-service bike as one can come without making or buying a sealed-for-life hub gearbox: such a thing seems possible but very likely will be too heavy for bicycle use and is thus is a contradiction in terms.
> >> >
> >> Andre Jute
> >> I don't subscribe to the shibboleth that a cyclist's commitment is measured by his suffering on his bike or his dirty fingernails off it.
> >> >
> >> * I just remembered. The replaced component was a thin but very comfortable set of handgrips from the Finnish bicycle parts distributor, Hermann -- on a bike I replaced in 2004, so before 18 years ago. The current handgrips on my everyday bike, a Utopia Kranich (on which Hermann's was the standard no-cost grips -- I still have the pair that came on the Kranich as spares), are Brooks' leather grips, the edge-on rings of thick saddle leather being held together in cast aluminium ends by miniature bicycle spokes; they're 13 or 14 years old, very comfortable, and show no signs of wear.
>
> >Here's a bicycle technical post, which the whiners on RBT claim they want, but no one has anything to contribute except Jeff.
> Perhaps it's the superfluous rubbish under which your bicycle related
> content is hidden? I read your initial article and gave up reading
> about half way through. I forced myself to read your second article
> all the way through, mostly because I expect a response to my
> MTBF/MTTF correction. However, I had to re-read every sentence at
> least 3 times because the topic would constantly change thanks to
> multiple comma splices. I was literally lost. I couldn't remember
> what the topic of any sentence was, much less the topic of the
> article. The superfluous rubbish was just too much of a distraction.
> If you remove the digressions, diversions, distraction, irrelevant
> comments, un-necessary references, minutiae, and "flowery" language.
>
> "Flowery writing can turn off readers"
> <https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/opinion/story/2022-05-03/a-word-please-flowery-writing-can-turn-off-readers>
>
> Here's an example of one of you comma splices:
> "I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the
> lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also
> equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of
> hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in
> the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid
> analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to
> break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one
> will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are
> excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses
> with layers of eiderdowns."
> In one sentence, your topic swings from auto-correction, MTBF/MTTF,
> Rohloffs, universal statistical validity, more Rohloff, German
> engineering and ass covering, and whatever eiderdown might be. Do you
> seriously expect ANYONE to follow your train derailment thoughts
> through so many topic changes in one sentence? If you have a point to
> make, make the point and then give the reader time to digest the point
> by adding a full stop period. Then, proceed with the next topic
> change and again come to a full stop allowing the reader time to
> digest your point.
>
> It's not my intent here to perform damage control on your writing
> style. I think if you take my comments seriously, the solution is
> obvious. If you expect people to read your bicycle related comments,
> you should write in a manner similar to what your readers expect, are
> accustomed to reading, and which they can easily understand. If you
> need some practice, take your two previous postings, remove everything
> that does not directly pertain to bicycles, cycling, and MTBF/MTTF,
> and try reposting to RBT.

I heartily agree. Not surprisingly, I'm friends with various writing professors.
I won't bother them by sending them copies of Jute posts; but I'm sure if the copies were
printed, they would empty their red pens on the pages.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 17:51:05 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 3:08:57 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 14:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:05:27 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>> >> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 4:03:41 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
>> >> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > >Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
>> >> > >by Andre Jute
>> >> > >
>> >> > >I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.
>> >> > A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
>> >> > time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
>> >> > consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
>> >> > no longer be repaired.
>> >> >
>> >> > What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
>> >> > long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
>> >> > failure:
>> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
>> >> > "Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
>> >> > between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
>> >> > normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
>> >> > (average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
>> >> > repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
>> >> > expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."
>> >> >
>> >> > However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
>> >> > in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
>> >> > will be no maintenance.
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>> >> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> >> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> >> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>> >> >
>> >> Thanks, Jeff. Now that is the right kind of fact-check. I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses with layers of eiderdowns. Rohloff service consists only of an oil change once a year or every 5,000km plus changing the grease in the EXT klickbox (where the two pull-pull cables' impetus makes 90 degree turn directly into the gearbox at the rear hub) but the klickbox service interval, given high quality gooey stuff (I use
>> >Phil's waterproof, which discolours visibly when it is contaminated and loses its potency) is grotesquely short at 500km, so I've worked towards making it 5K, same as the main oil service. That's it until you require a cable change, which I haven't in 12K km.
>> >> >
>> >> There's no other service on my bike. I don't clean the chain or lube it. Out of sight, out of mind inside a Chainglider. It runs two Rohloff service intervals (in my use) on the factory lube, and then I throw it off without even inspecting or measuring it. The two chains I did measure were good (less than 0.5mm wear) to 4500km. I change tyres at 8500 to 9000km intervals though the Big Apples I use are good to twice that if you run them until the thorn-proofing shows blue through the black "rubber", as encouraged by Schwalbe, but I'd rather not be bothered with flats because I'm too cheap to spend fifty or sixty bucks on a new set of tyres. In practice the tyres are changed when I change the oil. The Magura brake blocks for their rim hydraulics easily go 10K because I don't bother with comfort braking and generally ride in absent or very light traffic with drivers who know me, or whose wives at least know my wife. I'm considering running the tyres and brake blocks to whatever
oil
>> >service falls nearest 13K km. Everything else on my bike is sealed for life and, since I buy only the best because in the long run it is the least wasteful way to proceed, it is very rare for a component to need replacement -- I can't remember the last time I replaced a component for wearing out rather than that I identified and acquired something better." It's thus as near a zero-service bike as one can come without making or buying a sealed-for-life hub gearbox: such a thing seems possible but very likely will be too heavy for bicycle use and is thus is a contradiction in terms.
>> >> >
>> >> Andre Jute
>> >> I don't subscribe to the shibboleth that a cyclist's commitment is measured by his suffering on his bike or his dirty fingernails off it.
>> >> >
>> >> * I just remembered. The replaced component was a thin but very comfortable set of handgrips from the Finnish bicycle parts distributor, Hermann -- on a bike I replaced in 2004, so before 18 years ago. The current handgrips on my everyday bike, a Utopia Kranich (on which Hermann's was the standard no-cost grips -- I still have the pair that came on the Kranich as spares), are Brooks' leather grips, the edge-on rings of thick saddle leather being held together in cast aluminium ends by miniature bicycle spokes; they're 13 or 14 years old, very comfortable, and show no signs of wear.
>>
>> >Here's a bicycle technical post, which the whiners on RBT claim they want, but no one has anything to contribute except Jeff.
>> Perhaps it's the superfluous rubbish under which your bicycle related
>> content is hidden? I read your initial article and gave up reading
>> about half way through. I forced myself to read your second article
>> all the way through, mostly because I expect a response to my
>> MTBF/MTTF correction. However, I had to re-read every sentence at
>> least 3 times because the topic would constantly change thanks to
>> multiple comma splices. I was literally lost. I couldn't remember
>> what the topic of any sentence was, much less the topic of the
>> article. The superfluous rubbish was just too much of a distraction.
>> If you remove the digressions, diversions, distraction, irrelevant
>> comments, un-necessary references, minutiae, and "flowery" language.
>>
>> "Flowery writing can turn off readers"
>> <https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/opinion/story/2022-05-03/a-word-please-flowery-writing-can-turn-off-readers>
>>
>> Here's an example of one of you comma splices:
>> "I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the
>> lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also
>> equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of
>> hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in
>> the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid
>> analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to
>> break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one
>> will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are
>> excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses
>> with layers of eiderdowns."
>> In one sentence, your topic swings from auto-correction, MTBF/MTTF,
>> Rohloffs, universal statistical validity, more Rohloff, German
>> engineering and ass covering, and whatever eiderdown might be. Do you
>> seriously expect ANYONE to follow your train derailment thoughts
>> through so many topic changes in one sentence? If you have a point to
>> make, make the point and then give the reader time to digest the point
>> by adding a full stop period. Then, proceed with the next topic
>> change and again come to a full stop allowing the reader time to
>> digest your point.
>>
>> It's not my intent here to perform damage control on your writing
>> style. I think if you take my comments seriously, the solution is
>> obvious. If you expect people to read your bicycle related comments,
>> you should write in a manner similar to what your readers expect, are
>> accustomed to reading, and which they can easily understand. If you
>> need some practice, take your two previous postings, remove everything
>> that does not directly pertain to bicycles, cycling, and MTBF/MTTF,
>> and try reposting to RBT.
>
>I heartily agree. Not surprisingly, I'm friends with various writing professors.
>I won't bother them by sending them copies of Jute posts; but I'm sure if the copies were
>printed, they would empty their red pens on the pages.
>
>"Brevity is the soul of wit" makes sense. In Jute's case, so does "TLDR".
>
>- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 11:08:57 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 14:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:05:27 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 4:03:41 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> >> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
> >> > >by Andre Jute
> >> > >
> >> > >I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.
> >> > A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
> >> > time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
> >> > consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
> >> > no longer be repaired.
> >> >
> >> > What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
> >> > long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
> >> > failure:
> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
> >> > "Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
> >> > between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
> >> > normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
> >> > (average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
> >> > repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
> >> > expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."
> >> >
> >> > However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
> >> > in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
> >> > will be no maintenance.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> >> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> >> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> >> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> >> >
> >> Thanks, Jeff. Now that is the right kind of fact-check. I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses with layers of eiderdowns. Rohloff service consists only of an oil change once a year or every 5,000km plus changing the grease in the EXT klickbox (where the two pull-pull cables' impetus makes 90 degree turn directly into the gearbox at the rear hub) but the klickbox service interval, given high quality gooey stuff (I use
> >Phil's waterproof, which discolours visibly when it is contaminated and loses its potency) is grotesquely short at 500km, so I've worked towards making it 5K, same as the main oil service. That's it until you require a cable change, which I haven't in 12K km.
> >> >
> >> There's no other service on my bike. I don't clean the chain or lube it. Out of sight, out of mind inside a Chainglider. It runs two Rohloff service intervals (in my use) on the factory lube, and then I throw it off without even inspecting or measuring it. The two chains I did measure were good (less than 0.5mm wear) to 4500km. I change tyres at 8500 to 9000km intervals though the Big Apples I use are good to twice that if you run them until the thorn-proofing shows blue through the black "rubber", as encouraged by Schwalbe, but I'd rather not be bothered with flats because I'm too cheap to spend fifty or sixty bucks on a new set of tyres. In practice the tyres are changed when I change the oil. The Magura brake blocks for their rim hydraulics easily go 10K because I don't bother with comfort braking and generally ride in absent or very light traffic with drivers who know me, or whose wives at least know my wife. I'm considering running the tyres and brake blocks to whatever oil
> >service falls nearest 13K km. Everything else on my bike is sealed for life and, since I buy only the best because in the long run it is the least wasteful way to proceed, it is very rare for a component to need replacement -- I can't remember the last time I replaced a component for wearing out rather than that I identified and acquired something better." It's thus as near a zero-service bike as one can come without making or buying a sealed-for-life hub gearbox: such a thing seems possible but very likely will be too heavy for bicycle use and is thus is a contradiction in terms.
> >> >
> >> Andre Jute
> >> I don't subscribe to the shibboleth that a cyclist's commitment is measured by his suffering on his bike or his dirty fingernails off it.
> >> >
> >> * I just remembered. The replaced component was a thin but very comfortable set of handgrips from the Finnish bicycle parts distributor, Hermann -- on a bike I replaced in 2004, so before 18 years ago. The current handgrips on my everyday bike, a Utopia Kranich (on which Hermann's was the standard no-cost grips -- I still have the pair that came on the Kranich as spares), are Brooks' leather grips, the edge-on rings of thick saddle leather being held together in cast aluminium ends by miniature bicycle spokes; they're 13 or 14 years old, very comfortable, and show no signs of wear.
>
> >Here's a bicycle technical post, which the whiners on RBT claim they want, but no one has anything to contribute except Jeff.
> Perhaps it's the superfluous rubbish under which your bicycle related
> content is hidden? I read your initial article and gave up reading
> about half way through. I forced myself to read your second article
> all the way through, mostly because I expect a response to my
> MTBF/MTTF correction. However, I had to re-read every sentence at
> least 3 times because the topic would constantly change thanks to
> multiple comma splices. I was literally lost. I couldn't remember
> what the topic of any sentence was, much less the topic of the
> article. The superfluous rubbish was just too much of a distraction.
> If you remove the digressions, diversions, distraction, irrelevant
> comments, un-necessary references, minutiae, and "flowery" language.
>
> "Flowery writing can turn off readers"
> <https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/opinion/story/2022-05-03/a-word-please-flowery-writing-can-turn-off-readers>
>
> Here's an example of one of you comma splices:
> "I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the
> lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also
> equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of
> hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in
> the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid
> analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to
> break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one
> will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are
> excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses
> with layers of eiderdowns."
> In one sentence, your topic swings from auto-correction, MTBF/MTTF,
> Rohloffs, universal statistical validity, more Rohloff, German
> engineering and ass covering, and whatever eiderdown might be. Do you
> seriously expect ANYONE to follow your train derailment thoughts
> through so many topic changes in one sentence? If you have a point to
> make, make the point and then give the reader time to digest the point
> by adding a full stop period. Then, proceed with the next topic
> change and again come to a full stop allowing the reader time to
> digest your point.
>
> It's not my intent here to perform damage control on your writing
> style. I think if you take my comments seriously, the solution is
> obvious. If you expect people to read your bicycle related comments,
> you should write in a manner similar to what your readers expect, are
> accustomed to reading, and which they can easily understand. If you
> need some practice, take your two previous postings, remove everything
> that does not directly pertain to bicycles, cycling, and MTBF/MTTF,
> and try reposting to RBT.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
Not my problem if you live in a soundbite society and have taken on its mannerisms, sport. That's a voluntary contribution by me . When I'm paid, I write in whatever chameleon style is required, and if it is too much of a bother to deal with minds shortchanged by their education, I ask for more money to dull the pain. In any event, as the guitar thermionics guru Lord Valve pointed out long since to the whiners, my sentences all make sense, unlike their soundbites. As for professors of writing at any college where they let Franki-boy through the door as anything but a janitor, my book on style was in print in English for a quarter-century until I withdrew it to rewrite it, and is still available in translation in all the latinate languages; consider the reasons a book on style in English may be translated into other languages. Where are your books, gentlemen? Thanks for the opportunity to patronise Krygowski, again, and to demonstrate once more that idiots who cannot argue facts fling ad hominem like monkeys fling poo. Over and out from a another thread already ruined by the RBT Thugs.
>

On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 10:36:41 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Not my problem if you live in a soundbite society and have taken on its mannerisms, sport.

Ah, but it is your problem if you want people to read your essays.
Continue with your present style and I suspect you will continue to
complain about nobody responding to your comments.

Unlike you, I write in the manner that matches those of my target
audience. That can be difficult for technical topics, where the range
of knowledge and experience vary dramatically. Oddly, you were the
only person to complain about the length and detail of one of my
postings, demanding instead an "executive summary". I did exactly
that, replying in "sound bite" or "text messaging" format. That was a
waste of my time because most of the answers to your questions and
comments were in my original lengthy posting, which you refused to
read because it wasn't in your designated format. I'm not suggesting
that you switch to a "sound bite" or "text message format, which are
all too common in many forums. I am suggesting that you switch to
something between a "sound bite" and your current flowery style.
Perhaps people will then read and respond.

"Flowery writing can turn off readers"
<https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/opinion/story/2022-05-03/a-word-please-flowery-writing-can-turn-off-readers>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 10:36:43 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 11:08:57 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 14:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:05:27 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 4:03:41 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail..com wrote:
> > >> > On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> > >> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > >Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
> > >> > >by Andre Jute
> > >> > >
> > >> > >I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.
> > >> > A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
> > >> > time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
> > >> > consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
> > >> > no longer be repaired.
> > >> >
> > >> > What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
> > >> > long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
> > >> > failure:
> > >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
> > >> > "Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
> > >> > between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
> > >> > normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
> > >> > (average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
> > >> > repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
> > >> > expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."
> > >> >
> > >> > However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
> > >> > in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
> > >> > will be no maintenance.
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > >> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > >> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > >> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > >> >
> > >> Thanks, Jeff. Now that is the right kind of fact-check. I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses with layers of eiderdowns. Rohloff service consists only of an oil change once a year or every 5,000km plus changing the grease in the EXT klickbox (where the two pull-pull cables' impetus makes 90 degree turn directly into the gearbox at the rear hub) but the klickbox service interval, given high quality gooey stuff (I use
> > >Phil's waterproof, which discolours visibly when it is contaminated and loses its potency) is grotesquely short at 500km, so I've worked towards making it 5K, same as the main oil service. That's it until you require a cable change, which I haven't in 12K km.
> > >> >
> > >> There's no other service on my bike. I don't clean the chain or lube it. Out of sight, out of mind inside a Chainglider. It runs two Rohloff service intervals (in my use) on the factory lube, and then I throw it off without even inspecting or measuring it. The two chains I did measure were good (less than 0.5mm wear) to 4500km. I change tyres at 8500 to 9000km intervals though the Big Apples I use are good to twice that if you run them until the thorn-proofing shows blue through the black "rubber", as encouraged by Schwalbe, but I'd rather not be bothered with flats because I'm too cheap to spend fifty or sixty bucks on a new set of tyres. In practice the tyres are changed when I change the oil. The Magura brake blocks for their rim hydraulics easily go 10K because I don't bother with comfort braking and generally ride in absent or very light traffic with drivers who know me, or whose wives at least know my wife. I'm considering running the tyres and brake blocks to whatever oil
> > >service falls nearest 13K km. Everything else on my bike is sealed for life and, since I buy only the best because in the long run it is the least wasteful way to proceed, it is very rare for a component to need replacement -- I can't remember the last time I replaced a component for wearing out rather than that I identified and acquired something better." It's thus as near a zero-service bike as one can come without making or buying a sealed-for-life hub gearbox: such a thing seems possible but very likely will be too heavy for bicycle use and is thus is a contradiction in terms.
> > >> >
> > >> Andre Jute
> > >> I don't subscribe to the shibboleth that a cyclist's commitment is measured by his suffering on his bike or his dirty fingernails off it.
> > >> >
> > >> * I just remembered. The replaced component was a thin but very comfortable set of handgrips from the Finnish bicycle parts distributor, Hermann -- on a bike I replaced in 2004, so before 18 years ago. The current handgrips on my everyday bike, a Utopia Kranich (on which Hermann's was the standard no-cost grips -- I still have the pair that came on the Kranich as spares), are Brooks' leather grips, the edge-on rings of thick saddle leather being held together in cast aluminium ends by miniature bicycle spokes; they're 13 or 14 years old, very comfortable, and show no signs of wear.
> >
> > >Here's a bicycle technical post, which the whiners on RBT claim they want, but no one has anything to contribute except Jeff.
> > Perhaps it's the superfluous rubbish under which your bicycle related
> > content is hidden? I read your initial article and gave up reading
> > about half way through. I forced myself to read your second article
> > all the way through, mostly because I expect a response to my
> > MTBF/MTTF correction. However, I had to re-read every sentence at
> > least 3 times because the topic would constantly change thanks to
> > multiple comma splices. I was literally lost. I couldn't remember
> > what the topic of any sentence was, much less the topic of the
> > article. The superfluous rubbish was just too much of a distraction.
> > If you remove the digressions, diversions, distraction, irrelevant
> > comments, un-necessary references, minutiae, and "flowery" language.
> >
> > "Flowery writing can turn off readers"
> > <https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/opinion/story/2022-05-03/a-word-please-flowery-writing-can-turn-off-readers>
> >
> > Here's an example of one of you comma splices:
> > "I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the
> > lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also
> > equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of
> > hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in
> > the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid
> > analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to
> > break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one
> > will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are
> > excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses
> > with layers of eiderdowns."
> > In one sentence, your topic swings from auto-correction, MTBF/MTTF,
> > Rohloffs, universal statistical validity, more Rohloff, German
> > engineering and ass covering, and whatever eiderdown might be. Do you
> > seriously expect ANYONE to follow your train derailment thoughts
> > through so many topic changes in one sentence? If you have a point to
> > make, make the point and then give the reader time to digest the point
> > by adding a full stop period. Then, proceed with the next topic
> > change and again come to a full stop allowing the reader time to
> > digest your point.
> >
> > It's not my intent here to perform damage control on your writing
> > style. I think if you take my comments seriously, the solution is
> > obvious. If you expect people to read your bicycle related comments,
> > you should write in a manner similar to what your readers expect, are
> > accustomed to reading, and which they can easily understand. If you
> > need some practice, take your two previous postings, remove everything
> > that does not directly pertain to bicycles, cycling, and MTBF/MTTF,
> > and try reposting to RBT.
> > --
> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> >
> Not my problem if you live in a soundbite society and have taken on its mannerisms, sport. That's a voluntary contribution by me . When I'm paid, I write in whatever chameleon style is required, and if it is too much of a bother to deal with minds shortchanged by their education, I ask for more money to dull the pain. In any event, as the guitar thermionics guru Lord Valve pointed out long since to the whiners, my sentences all make sense, unlike their soundbites. As for professors of writing at any college where they let Franki-boy through the door as anything but a janitor, my book on style was in print in English for a quarter-century until I withdrew it to rewrite it, and is still available in translation in all the latinate languages; consider the reasons a book on style in English may be translated into other languages. Where are your books, gentlemen? Thanks for the opportunity to patronise Krygowski, again, and to demonstrate once more that idiots who cannot argue facts fling ad hominem like monkeys fling poo. Over and out from a another thread already ruined by the RBT Thugs.

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:04:19 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Talking to Liebermann is rather a waste of time don't you think? He will find a nut-cake site on Google that calls you names and will use that as "proof" that you don't know what you're talking about regardless of your success and the lack of it by those who criticize you. Reminding me of the vast medial knowledge it required for Liebermann to tell us that Dr. John Campbell didn't know what he was talking about because he didn't have an MD. But then again that stupid moron worships the ground that Fauci walks on because he has an MD and hasn't spent one day in private practice actually showing what he knows. Liebermann no doubt has lice and the sort of doctors he choses couldn't even tell.

Another Tom rant with no bicycling content.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 8:04:19 PM UTC+1, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 10:36:43 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 24, 2022 at 11:08:57 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 14:07:15 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> > > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 12:05:27 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 4:03:41 AM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> > On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> > > >> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >Rohloff Seal Drag is Good and Wanted!
> > > >> > >by Andre Jute
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >I seem to remember that the Nexus Premium 8-speed has an MTBF (essentially its lifetime expected by the designers) of 50,000km or say 30K miles.
> > > >> > A minor quibble. MTBF is "mean time between failures" which is the
> > > >> > time failure events. The device will then be serviced. There is no
> > > >> > consideration in MTBF for a final fatal failure where the device can
> > > >> > no longer be repaired.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > What you probably mean is MTTF or "mean time to failure", which is how
> > > >> > long a device will last before it has a fatal and un-repairable
> > > >> > failure:
> > > >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures>
> > > >> > "Mean time between failures (MTBF) is the predicted elapsed time
> > > >> > between inherent failures of a mechanical or electronic system, during
> > > >> > normal system operation. MTBF can be calculated as the arithmetic mean
> > > >> > (average) time between failures of a system. The term is used for
> > > >> > repairable systems, while mean time to failure (MTTF) denotes the
> > > >> > expected time to failure for a non-repairable system."
> > > >> >
> > > >> > However, if you operate your Rohloff hub in zero maintenance mode, as
> > > >> > in ride until it breaks, either MTBF or MTTR is correct because there
> > > >> > will be no maintenance.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --
> > > >> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > >> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > >> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > >> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > > >> >
> > > >> Thanks, Jeff. Now that is the right kind of fact-check. I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses with layers of eiderdowns. Rohloff service consists only of an oil change once a year or every 5,000km plus changing the grease in the EXT klickbox (where the two pull-pull cables' impetus makes 90 degree turn directly into the gearbox at the rear hub) but the klickbox service interval, given high quality gooey stuff (I use
> > > >Phil's waterproof, which discolours visibly when it is contaminated and loses its potency) is grotesquely short at 500km, so I've worked towards making it 5K, same as the main oil service. That's it until you require a cable change, which I haven't in 12K km.
> > > >> >
> > > >> There's no other service on my bike. I don't clean the chain or lube it. Out of sight, out of mind inside a Chainglider. It runs two Rohloff service intervals (in my use) on the factory lube, and then I throw it off without even inspecting or measuring it. The two chains I did measure were good (less than 0.5mm wear) to 4500km. I change tyres at 8500 to 9000km intervals though the Big Apples I use are good to twice that if you run them until the thorn-proofing shows blue through the black "rubber", as encouraged by Schwalbe, but I'd rather not be bothered with flats because I'm too cheap to spend fifty or sixty bucks on a new set of tyres. In practice the tyres are changed when I change the oil. The Magura brake blocks for their rim hydraulics easily go 10K because I don't bother with comfort braking and generally ride in absent or very light traffic with drivers who know me, or whose wives at least know my wife. I'm considering running the tyres and brake blocks to whatever oil
> > > >service falls nearest 13K km. Everything else on my bike is sealed for life and, since I buy only the best because in the long run it is the least wasteful way to proceed, it is very rare for a component to need replacement -- I can't remember the last time I replaced a component for wearing out rather than that I identified and acquired something better." It's thus as near a zero-service bike as one can come without making or buying a sealed-for-life hub gearbox: such a thing seems possible but very likely will be too heavy for bicycle use and is thus is a contradiction in terms.
> > > >> >
> > > >> Andre Jute
> > > >> I don't subscribe to the shibboleth that a cyclist's commitment is measured by his suffering on his bike or his dirty fingernails off it.
> > > >> >
> > > >> * I just remembered. The replaced component was a thin but very comfortable set of handgrips from the Finnish bicycle parts distributor, Hermann -- on a bike I replaced in 2004, so before 18 years ago. The current handgrips on my everyday bike, a Utopia Kranich (on which Hermann's was the standard no-cost grips -- I still have the pair that came on the Kranich as spares), are Brooks' leather grips, the edge-on rings of thick saddle leather being held together in cast aluminium ends by miniature bicycle spokes; they're 13 or 14 years old, very comfortable, and show no signs of wear.
> > >
> > > >Here's a bicycle technical post, which the whiners on RBT claim they want, but no one has anything to contribute except Jeff.
> > > Perhaps it's the superfluous rubbish under which your bicycle related
> > > content is hidden? I read your initial article and gave up reading
> > > about half way through. I forced myself to read your second article
> > > all the way through, mostly because I expect a response to my
> > > MTBF/MTTF correction. However, I had to re-read every sentence at
> > > least 3 times because the topic would constantly change thanks to
> > > multiple comma splices. I was literally lost. I couldn't remember
> > > what the topic of any sentence was, much less the topic of the
> > > article. The superfluous rubbish was just too much of a distraction.
> > > If you remove the digressions, diversions, distraction, irrelevant
> > > comments, un-necessary references, minutiae, and "flowery" language.
> > >
> > > "Flowery writing can turn off readers"
> > > <https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/opinion/story/2022-05-03/a-word-please-flowery-writing-can-turn-off-readers>
> > >
> > > Here's an example of one of you comma splices:
> > > "I got screwed by the auto-correction, which always goes for the
> > > lowest common denominator, though what I said about MTTF is also
> > > equally true for MTBF as there are Rohloffs out there with a couple of
> > > hundred thousand on the clock, and very likely not enough breakages in
> > > the entire population of Rohloffs to make any statistically valid
> > > analysis, except the one applicable to the universe: "unlikely to
> > > break unless you abuse it, and even then the chances are that no one
> > > will ever discover your neglect" because the service intervals are
> > > excellent examples of German engineers' tendency to cover their asses
> > > with layers of eiderdowns."
> > > In one sentence, your topic swings from auto-correction, MTBF/MTTF,
> > > Rohloffs, universal statistical validity, more Rohloff, German
> > > engineering and ass covering, and whatever eiderdown might be. Do you
> > > seriously expect ANYONE to follow your train derailment thoughts
> > > through so many topic changes in one sentence? If you have a point to
> > > make, make the point and then give the reader time to digest the point
> > > by adding a full stop period. Then, proceed with the next topic
> > > change and again come to a full stop allowing the reader time to
> > > digest your point.
> > >
> > > It's not my intent here to perform damage control on your writing
> > > style. I think if you take my comments seriously, the solution is
> > > obvious. If you expect people to read your bicycle related comments,
> > > you should write in a manner similar to what your readers expect, are
> > > accustomed to reading, and which they can easily understand. If you
> > > need some practice, take your two previous postings, remove everything
> > > that does not directly pertain to bicycles, cycling, and MTBF/MTTF,
> > > and try reposting to RBT.
> > > --
> > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > >
> > Not my problem if you live in a soundbite society and have taken on its mannerisms, sport. That's a voluntary contribution by me . When I'm paid, I write in whatever chameleon style is required, and if it is too much of a bother to deal with minds shortchanged by their education, I ask for more money to dull the pain. In any event, as the guitar thermionics guru Lord Valve pointed out long since to the whiners, my sentences all make sense, unlike their soundbites. As for professors of writing at any college where they let Franki-boy through the door as anything but a janitor, my book on style was in print in English for a quarter-century until I withdrew it to rewrite it, and is still available in translation in all the latinate languages; consider the reasons a book on style in English may be translated into other languages. Where are your books, gentlemen? Thanks for the opportunity to patronise Krygowski, again, and to demonstrate once more that idiots who cannot argue facts fling ad hominem like monkeys fling poo. Over and out from a another thread already ruined by the RBT Thugs.
> Talking to Liebermann is rather a waste of time don't you think? He will find a nut-cake site on Google that calls you names and will use that as "proof" that you don't know what you're talking about regardless of your success and the lack of it by those who criticize you. Reminding me of the vast medial knowledge it required for Liebermann to tell us that Dr. John Campbell didn't know what he was talking about because he didn't have an MD. But then again that stupid moron worships the ground that Fauci walks on because he has an MD and hasn't spent one day in private practice actually showing what he knows. Liebermann no doubt has lice and the sort of doctors he choses couldn't even tell.
>
You have to laugh at these dumbfucks, without a single book between them, trying to teach style to a writer with over seventy books, and hundreds of encomiums to his style from qualified persons. it hasn't yet occurred to these clowns that I was doing it on purpose, staking a trap for them to impale themselves on. And right on target, they oblige me, flinging pointless ad hominem poo and not looking where they are pouncing about until they fall face first into the pit.
>
Of course, being retirees on fixed incomes, they can't afford a Rohloff hub gearbox and a new bike with the frame ends for it... Perhaps that's the reason they have nothing to say about the technical content, and want to argue about the presentation of, wait for it, a staked pit!
>
Andre Jute
O man, I have to stop laughing at these clowns when I'm holding a mocha in my hand. These jerks are expensive in keyboards -- correction, these morons are cheap in wet tissues, because the keyboard is still working.
>

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 9:36:28 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:04:19 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Talking to Liebermann is rather a waste of time don't you think? He will find a nut-cake site on Google that calls you names and will use that as "proof" that you don't know what you're talking about regardless of your success and the lack of it by those who criticize you. Reminding me of the vast medial knowledge it required for Liebermann to tell us that Dr. John Campbell didn't know what he was talking about because he didn't have an MD. But then again that stupid moron worships the ground that Fauci walks on because he has an MD and hasn't spent one day in private practice actually showing what he knows. Liebermann no doubt has lice and the sort of doctors he choses couldn't even tell.
> Another Tom rant with no bicycling content.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
Another arid, pointless Krygowski snarl, flung out like a monkey flings poo..
>
And the thing is, Tom is right again. Where are your books, Krygowski? You're a self-declared "professor", so where are your text-books? Where are the books of these "professors of literature" that you claim will put me in my place? Come on, you useless jerk, you brought them up, now name them so I can put them down for the crime of knowing someone as immoral and spiteful as you. (Actually, I expect cock will crow three times, and still they will deny knowing you.) And you can bet your slack fat ass that if they're stupid enough to be snippy, I will roll over them. I'm not big on provincial no-hopers at zero-cred colleges who claim to represent "literature".
>
For an internet know-it-all, you have amazingly few achievements, Krygowski, in fact none visible. Is that why you constantly want to tear down everyone else's achievements?
>
Andre Jute
"Good novels are not written, they are rewritten. Great novels are diamonds mined from layered rewrites.” -- Andre Jute, quoted in hundreds of places, including ten books on style which simply plagiarised my Writing a Thriller over and over again and then put different titles on the covers.

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 3:52:50 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 9:36:28 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:04:19 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Talking to Liebermann is rather a waste of time don't you think? He will find a nut-cake site on Google that calls you names and will use that as "proof" that you don't know what you're talking about regardless of your success and the lack of it by those who criticize you. Reminding me of the vast medial knowledge it required for Liebermann to tell us that Dr. John Campbell didn't know what he was talking about because he didn't have an MD. But then again that stupid moron worships the ground that Fauci walks on because he has an MD and hasn't spent one day in private practice actually showing what he knows. Liebermann no doubt has lice and the sort of doctors he choses couldn't even tell.
> > Another Tom rant with no bicycling content.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> Another arid, pointless Krygowski snarl, flung out like a monkey flings poo.
> >
> And the thing is, Tom is right again. Where are your books, Krygowski? You're a self-declared "professor", so where are your text-books? Where are the books of these "professors of literature" that you claim will put me in my place? Come on, you useless jerk, you brought them up, now name them so I can put them down for the crime of knowing someone as immoral and spiteful as you. (Actually, I expect cock will crow three times, and still they will deny knowing you.) And you can bet your slack fat ass that if they're stupid enough to be snippy, I will roll over them. I'm not big on provincial no-hopers at zero-cred colleges who claim to represent "literature".
> >
> For an internet know-it-all, you have amazingly few achievements, Krygowski, in fact none visible. Is that why you constantly want to tear down everyone else's achievements?
> >
> Andre Jute
> "Good novels are not written, they are rewritten. Great novels are diamonds mined from layered rewrites.” -- Andre Jute, quoted in hundreds of places, including ten books on style which simply plagiarised my Writing a Thriller over and over again and then put different titles on the covers..
As I said before, Krygowski didn't teach mechanical engineering so why does he pretend he did? According to his own college, he taught "Industrial Engineering which is quite different from mechanical engineering. When I said that I was taught industrial engineering in high school do you suppose he tried to pawn that off as industrial arts which is different. How many machine shops hire or are run by mechanical engineers? Large scale machine shops are run by the same people that were machinists and relied upon their training in industrial engineering to a able to properly set up assembly lines for large jobs and small assembly lines for smaller jobs.

So MOST Industrial Engineering was entirely self taught and I'm quite sure that Krygowski would disagree because, after all, he was important to the world.

Those who can, do, and those who cannot, teach. And those who cannot teach tell us that they never fall off of bicycles.

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 1:00:16 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> As I said before, Krygowski didn't teach mechanical engineering so why does he pretend he did? According to his own college, he taught "Industrial Engineering ...

That's an outright lie.

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 6:00:16 PM UTC+1, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 3:52:50 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 9:36:28 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:04:19 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Talking to Liebermann is rather a waste of time don't you think? He will find a nut-cake site on Google that calls you names and will use that as "proof" that you don't know what you're talking about regardless of your success and the lack of it by those who criticize you. Reminding me of the vast medial knowledge it required for Liebermann to tell us that Dr. John Campbell didn't know what he was talking about because he didn't have an MD. But then again that stupid moron worships the ground that Fauci walks on because he has an MD and hasn't spent one day in private practice actually showing what he knows. Liebermann no doubt has lice and the sort of doctors he choses couldn't even tell.
> > > Another Tom rant with no bicycling content.
> > >
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > >
> > Another arid, pointless Krygowski snarl, flung out like a monkey flings poo.
> > >
> > And the thing is, Tom is right again. Where are your books, Krygowski? You're a self-declared "professor", so where are your text-books? Where are the books of these "professors of literature" that you claim will put me in my place? Come on, you useless jerk, you brought them up, now name them so I can put them down for the crime of knowing someone as immoral and spiteful as you. (Actually, I expect cock will crow three times, and still they will deny knowing you.) And you can bet your slack fat ass that if they're stupid enough to be snippy, I will roll over them. I'm not big on provincial no-hopers at zero-cred colleges who claim to represent "literature".
> > >
> > For an internet know-it-all, you have amazingly few achievements, Krygowski, in fact none visible. Is that why you constantly want to tear down everyone else's achievements?
> > >
> > Andre Jute
> > "Good novels are not written, they are rewritten. Great novels are diamonds mined from layered rewrites.” -- Andre Jute, quoted in hundreds of places, including ten books on style which simply plagiarised my Writing a Thriller over and over again and then put different titles on the covers.
> As I said before, Krygowski didn't teach mechanical engineering so why does he pretend he did? According to his own college, he taught "Industrial Engineering which is quite different from mechanical engineering. When I said that I was taught industrial engineering in high school do you suppose he tried to pawn that off as industrial arts which is different. How many machine shops hire or are run by mechanical engineers? Large scale machine shops are run by the same people that were machinists and relied upon their training in industrial engineering to a able to properly set up assembly lines for large jobs and small assembly lines for smaller jobs.
>
> So MOST Industrial Engineering was entirely self taught and I'm quite sure that Krygowski would disagree because, after all, he was important to the world.
>
> Those who can, do, and those who cannot, teach. And those who cannot teach tell us that they never fall off of bicycles.
>
Quite so. Frank-boy Krygowski, before he became such a victim of the Peter Principle that they just had to give him a job teaching college, was an oily rag in a factory, industrial engineering as you say, not mechanical engineering at all. "Industrial engineering", in Franki-boy's case, was plant maintenance. The poor fellow doesn't have an original bone in his body. -- AJ

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 7:49:08 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 1:00:16 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > As I said before, Krygowski didn't teach mechanical engineering so why does he pretend he did? According to his own college, he taught "Industrial Engineering ...
>
> That's an outright lie.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
You should let us know the outcome after you've spoken to whoever in the college admin told this "outright lie" to Tom, Franki-boy. But, I must say, it seems to me that you yourself told us this "outright lie", Franki-boy, when you bragged about your "experience in plant maintenance. What sort of plant maintenance was it, shovelling guano in a battery breeder? And you're in my thread again, Franki-boy, so why don't you fuck off and leave us in peace. -- Unsigned for the usual reasons.
>

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 11:53:28 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 6:00:16 PM UTC+1, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 3:52:50 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 9:36:28 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:04:19 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Talking to Liebermann is rather a waste of time don't you think? He will find a nut-cake site on Google that calls you names and will use that as "proof" that you don't know what you're talking about regardless of your success and the lack of it by those who criticize you. Reminding me of the vast medial knowledge it required for Liebermann to tell us that Dr. John Campbell didn't know what he was talking about because he didn't have an MD. But then again that stupid moron worships the ground that Fauci walks on because he has an MD and hasn't spent one day in private practice actually showing what he knows. Liebermann no doubt has lice and the sort of doctors he choses couldn't even tell.
> > > > Another Tom rant with no bicycling content.
> > > >
> > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > >
> > > Another arid, pointless Krygowski snarl, flung out like a monkey flings poo.
> > > >
> > > And the thing is, Tom is right again. Where are your books, Krygowski? You're a self-declared "professor", so where are your text-books? Where are the books of these "professors of literature" that you claim will put me in my place? Come on, you useless jerk, you brought them up, now name them so I can put them down for the crime of knowing someone as immoral and spiteful as you. (Actually, I expect cock will crow three times, and still they will deny knowing you.) And you can bet your slack fat ass that if they're stupid enough to be snippy, I will roll over them. I'm not big on provincial no-hopers at zero-cred colleges who claim to represent "literature".
> > > >
> > > For an internet know-it-all, you have amazingly few achievements, Krygowski, in fact none visible. Is that why you constantly want to tear down everyone else's achievements?
> > > >
> > > Andre Jute
> > > "Good novels are not written, they are rewritten. Great novels are diamonds mined from layered rewrites.” -- Andre Jute, quoted in hundreds of places, including ten books on style which simply plagiarised my Writing a Thriller over and over again and then put different titles on the covers.
> > As I said before, Krygowski didn't teach mechanical engineering so why does he pretend he did? According to his own college, he taught "Industrial Engineering which is quite different from mechanical engineering. When I said that I was taught industrial engineering in high school do you suppose he tried to pawn that off as industrial arts which is different. How many machine shops hire or are run by mechanical engineers? Large scale machine shops are run by the same people that were machinists and relied upon their training in industrial engineering to a able to properly set up assembly lines for large jobs and small assembly lines for smaller jobs.
> >
> > So MOST Industrial Engineering was entirely self taught and I'm quite sure that Krygowski would disagree because, after all, he was important to the world.
> >
> > Those who can, do, and those who cannot, teach. And those who cannot teach tell us that they never fall off of bicycles.
> >
> Quite so. Frank-boy Krygowski, before he became such a victim of the Peter Principle that they just had to give him a job teaching college, was an oily rag in a factory, industrial engineering as you say, not mechanical engineering at all. "Industrial engineering", in Franki-boy's case, was plant maintenance. The poor fellow doesn't have an original bone in his body. -- AJ

I wonder what this means?

Krygowski, Mr. Francis
Faculty Emeritus
frkrygowski@ysu.edu
Engineering Technology

In another spot on the same site:

Krygowski Francis
Lecture
Department of Engineering Technology
Youngdong University
United States of America

Either this gives us a good idea of the sort of people that attended this supposed "University" or gives us some idea of what esteem Francis was held.

Also the announcement "Starting Fall 2021, Youngstown State University’s $6,000 out-of-state tuition surcharge has been drastically reduced to $360 per academic year"

This gives you a pretty good idea that Youngstown State College is in poor financial health, I could blame this on people like Krygowski but I won't because this is the cost of being a Democrat - do nothing right and demand the same from others.

On 9/26/2022 3:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I wonder what this means?
>
> Krygowski, Mr. Francis
> Faculty Emeritus
> frkrygowski@ysu.edu
> Engineering Technology

It does NOT mean "Industrial Engineering," as you claimed. Tom, you're
making a fool of yourself yet again.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:58:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/26/2022 3:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> I wonder what this means?
>>
>> Krygowski, Mr. Francis
>> Faculty Emeritus
>> frkrygowski@ysu.edu
>> Engineering Technology
>
>It does NOT mean "Industrial Engineering," as you claimed. Tom, you're
>making a fool of yourself yet again.

"Yet again"???
When did he ever not make himself a fool?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 12:14:58 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 11:53:28 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 6:00:16 PM UTC+1, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 3:52:50 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>> > > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 9:36:28 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:04:19 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Talking to Liebermann is rather a waste of time don't you think? He will find a nut-cake site on Google that calls you names and will use that as "proof" that you don't know what you're talking about regardless of your success and the lack of it by those who criticize you. Reminding me of the vast medial knowledge it required for Liebermann to tell us that Dr. John Campbell didn't know what he was talking about because he didn't have an MD. But then again that stupid moron worships the ground that Fauci walks on because he has an MD and hasn't spent one day in private practice actually showing what he knows. Liebermann no doubt has lice and the sort of doctors he choses couldn't even tell.
>> > > > Another Tom rant with no bicycling content.
>> > > >
>> > > > - Frank Krygowski
>> > > >
>> > > Another arid, pointless Krygowski snarl, flung out like a monkey flings poo.
>> > > >
>> > > And the thing is, Tom is right again. Where are your books, Krygowski? You're a self-declared "professor", so where are your text-books? Where are the books of these "professors of literature" that you claim will put me in my place? Come on, you useless jerk, you brought them up, now name them so I can put them down for the crime of knowing someone as immoral and spiteful as you. (Actually, I expect cock will crow three times, and still they will deny knowing you.) And you can bet your slack fat ass that if they're stupid enough to be snippy, I will roll over them. I'm not big on provincial no-hopers at zero-cred colleges who claim to represent "literature".
>> > > >
>> > > For an internet know-it-all, you have amazingly few achievements, Krygowski, in fact none visible. Is that why you constantly want to tear down everyone else's achievements?
>> > > >
>> > > Andre Jute
>> > > "Good novels are not written, they are rewritten. Great novels are diamonds mined from layered rewrites.” -- Andre Jute, quoted in hundreds of places, including ten books on style which simply plagiarised my Writing a Thriller over and over again and then put different titles on the covers.
>> > As I said before, Krygowski didn't teach mechanical engineering so why does he pretend he did? According to his own college, he taught "Industrial Engineering which is quite different from mechanical engineering. When I said that I was taught industrial engineering in high school do you suppose he tried to pawn that off as industrial arts which is different. How many machine shops hire or are run by mechanical engineers? Large scale machine shops are run by the same people that were machinists and relied upon their training in industrial engineering to a able to properly set up assembly lines for large jobs and small assembly lines for smaller jobs.
>> >
>> > So MOST Industrial Engineering was entirely self taught and I'm quite sure that Krygowski would disagree because, after all, he was important to the world.
>> >
>> > Those who can, do, and those who cannot, teach. And those who cannot teach tell us that they never fall off of bicycles.
>> >
>> Quite so. Frank-boy Krygowski, before he became such a victim of the Peter Principle that they just had to give him a job teaching college, was an oily rag in a factory, industrial engineering as you say, not mechanical engineering at all. "Industrial engineering", in Franki-boy's case, was plant maintenance. The poor fellow doesn't have an original bone in his body. -- AJ
>
>I wonder what this means?
>
>Krygowski, Mr. Francis
>Faculty Emeritus
>frkrygowski@ysu.edu
>Engineering Technology
>
>In another spot on the same site:
>
>Krygowski Francis
>Lecture
>Department of Engineering Technology
>Youngdong University
>United States of America
>
>Either this gives us a good idea of the sort of people that attended this supposed "University" or gives us some idea of what esteem Francis was held.
>
>Also the announcement "Starting Fall 2021, Youngstown State University’s $6,000 out-of-state tuition surcharge has been drastically reduced to $360 per academic year"
>
>This gives you a pretty good idea that Youngstown State College is in poor financial health, I could blame this on people like Krygowski but I won't because this is the cost of being a Democrat - do nothing right and demand the same from others.

And the amazing (stupid) Tommy emits his usual stream of the brown
stinky stuff.

Youngstown University

Youngstown State University is a public university in Youngstown,
Ohio. Founded in 1908, it became known as Youngstown College in 1931

As of fall 2019, the student body totaled approximately 12,155
426 full-time faculty
165 faculty members boast full-professor rank, with 79% of the
instructors holding doctorates or terminal degrees.

So Tommy, your record of telling the truth 3 times in the past 17
years is still safe.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 12:14:58 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Also the announcement "Starting Fall 2021, Youngstown State University’s $6,000 out-of-state tuition surcharge has been drastically reduced to $360 per academic year"
>This gives you a pretty good idea that Youngstown State College is in poor financial health...

Having never attended a college, I see that you are now an expert on
college education and funding.

However, you are correct (this time). All the US colleges are hurting
for students and are doing whatever is necessary to attract paying
students. In the past, the revenue from out of state students was
huge:

"From Google ads to NFL sponsorships: Colleges throw billions at
marketing themselves to attract students" (October 1, 2021)
<https://hechingerreport.org/with-competition-up-enrollment-down-colleges-are-spending-billions-on-marketing-and-advertising/>
"America’s total number of students has declined by an unprecedented
2.6 million, or 13 percent, over the last decade. Another drop of 15
percent is projected, beginning in the mid-2020s, in the number of
prospective college students graduating from high schools."

"Out-of-state students are funding flagship universities and piling up
debt in the process." (Sept 24, 2022)
<https://slate.com/human-interest/2022/09/public-universities-out-of-state-tuition-student-debt.html>
"Mining information from the Integrated Postsecondary Education Data
System, specifically from 2002 through 2018, Klein finds that 48 out
of 50 state flagships have seen an increase in the share of
out-of-state students during that time period, in some cases by more
than 50 percent. Or lots more than 50 percent. In 2002, the
University of Alabama had an in-state to out-of-state ratio of roughly
75-25. By 2018, that ratio had almost flipped, to 34-66, the
equivalent of a 180 percent increase in out-of-state students.

In other words, out of state student enrollment has become a major
source of revenue for ALL colleges and it pays for the colleges to
attract out of state students. If that requires reducing entry and
tuition costs, that's what they're doing.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 9:58:11 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/26/2022 3:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > I wonder what this means?
> >
> > Krygowski, Mr. Francis
> > Faculty Emeritus
> > frkry...@ysu.edu
> > Engineering Technology
> It does NOT mean "Industrial Engineering," as you claimed. Tom, you're
> making a fool of yourself yet again.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>
First of all, let's reprint what Franki-boy cut away.where Youngstown U twice in the references Tom found describe Franki-boy as *Mr* Francis Krygowski:
*****
Krygowski, Mr. Francis
Faculty Emeritus
frkry...@ysu.edu
Engineering Technology
>
In another spot on the same site:
>
Krygowski Francis
Lecture
Department of Engineering Technology
Youngdong University
United States of America
***
"Mister" is the form for teaching assistants and the junior lecturers, unless they have a doctorate, in which case they're "Doctor", or are a professor, in which case they're "Professor" and if retired with the appendage Emeritus.
>
>Krygowski, Mr. Francis
>Faculty Emeritus
>
So Frank Krygowski has, according to his employer, appropriated the title "professor" without cause, and he doesn't have a Ph.D or some other form of doctorate or else they would call him "Doctor".
>
Describing Franki-boy merely as a
> Faculty Emeritus
generally means he was some lower level of teaching assistant, but it could equally mean that he was the departmental janitor. Still, YU describes him as a "lecturer" which is one step up from "junior lecturer". The cause of such a lack of promotion is usually laziness about acquiring higher degrees and publishing papers. In Frank Krygowski's case YU is so embarrassed by Franki-boy's education, it doesn't even mention a first degree, and clearly he has no higher degree, perhaps no degree at all. Who knows, maybe he as an apprentice oily rag on a factory floor before he bamboozled his way into a teaching job.
>
It is impossible not to conclude that even as junior teaching staff at a no-cred college, Krygowski was a failure. No wonder Krygowski tries to tear down anyone with achievements.
>
Andre Jute
I'm Andre Jute and i approve of this message.>
>

>
You're in my thread, Slow Johnny, and adding nothing but ad hominem. Fuck off.
>
On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:58:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 9/26/2022 3:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> >> I wonder what this means?
> >>
> >> Krygowski, Mr. Francis
> >> Faculty Emeritus
> >> frkry...@ysu.edu
> >> Engineering Technology
> >
> >It does NOT mean "Industrial Engineering," as you claimed. Tom, you're
> >making a fool of yourself yet again.
> "Yet again"???
> When did he ever not make himself a fool?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.