Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.

Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
kill files.

John :-#(#

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> wrote:

> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.

Totally agree. That would make filtering off-topic posts easy.

Fred Bloggs won't because it's a troll.

> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
> kill files.

Totally disagree. You cannot stop trolls like "Bloggs". Kill files don't work,
and they always fail when you don't know how to make it ignore a thread
branch.

The only workaround is to use single key "ignore thread branch". With that and
single key "ignore thread", you can skip through threads and thread branches
you don't want to read with a single key. It's the most efficient and
effective USENET filter.

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 9:06:53 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:
> John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> wrote:
>
> > Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
> > OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>
> Totally agree. That would make filtering off-topic posts easy.
>
> Fred Bloggs won't because it's a troll.

Fred Bloggs isn't a troll. He's not malicious, and he doesn't go after people merely because he doesn't like them.

John Doe is a troll - but doesn't seem to have enough sense to realise what he is.

> > Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the kill files.
>
> Totally disagree. You cannot stop trolls like "Bloggs".

Irrelevant, because he isn't actually a troll - merely opinionated (like most of the people who post here).

> Kill files don't work, and they always fail when you don't know how to make it ignore a thread branch.

This is an unmoderated group. The only way to deal with people whose opinions aren't worth attending to is to ignore them, and that doesn't work too well because sometimes their silly opinions are presented in a way that makes them look faintly plausible, and someone has to point out that the opinions aren't as plausible as they might appear.
<snipped John Doe's implausible opinion>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 9:06:53 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:
>> John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>> > OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>
>> Totally agree. That would make filtering off-topic posts easy.
>>
>> Fred Bloggs won't because it's a troll.
>
> Fred Bloggs isn't a troll. He's not malicious, and he doesn't go
> after people merely because he doesn't like them.
>
> John Doe is a troll - but doesn't seem to have enough sense to
> realise what he is.

Careful, a comment like that is likely to trigger John Doe from Dr.
Jekyll mode into Mr. Hyde mode where the Mr. Hyde mode troll outputs
top posting articles with full quoting of message headers.

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 12:32:15 PM UTC+10, Brook Vitaliy wrote:
> Bill Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 9:06:53 AM UTC+10, John Doe wrote:
> >> John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
> >> > OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
> >>
> >> Totally agree. That would make filtering off-topic posts easy.
> >>
> >> Fred Bloggs won't because it's a troll.
> >
> > Fred Bloggs isn't a troll. He's not malicious, and he doesn't go
> > after people merely because he doesn't like them.
> >
> > John Doe is a troll - but doesn't seem to have enough sense to
> > realise what he is.
>
> Careful, a comment like that is likely to trigger John Doe from Dr. Jekyll mode into Mr. Hyde mode where the Mr. Hyde mode troll outputs
top posting articles with full quoting of message headers.

He's always dumb, and if he gets even more emotionally involved than usual he gets even more slap-dash. I'm never going to bother to be "careful" with John Doe - he's just an infestation.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 6/22/2021 1:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>
> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put OT at
> the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>
> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the kill files.

Perhaps it would be better to reimagine "OT" as indicating ON Topic?

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 1:59:03 PM UTC+10, Don Y wrote:
> On 6/22/2021 1:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
> >
> > Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put OT at
> > the front of their Off-Topic posts.
> >
> > Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the kill files.
>
> Perhaps it would be better to reimagine "OT" as indicating ON Topic?

Probably not. The official topic here is electronic design. Some people - like John Larkin - have a rather strange idea of what that involves, but when they post about the design of electronic circuits they are on topic. John does seem to think that tinkering with circuits until they more or less work is a legitimate design process - and it does happen a lot in real life, even if proper designers then work out why their desperate improvisation actually works, and go on to optimise the circuit.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 2021-06-22, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> wrote:
>
> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>
> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
> kill files.
>
> John :-#(#

People forget, like you did.

--
Jasen.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
wrote:

>
>Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>
>Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>kill files.
>
>John :-#(#

Please tell us your badge number.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>
>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>> kill files.
>>
>> John :-#(#
>
> Please tell us your badge number.
>

Finally someone got it!

Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
no longer respected then the group dies off...

John ;-#)#

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
wrote:

>
>On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>
>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>> kill files.
>>>
>>> John :-#(#
>>
>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>
>
>Finally someone got it!
>
>Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
>no longer respected then the group dies off...
>
>John ;-#)#

SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
expose it in useful detail.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>> kill files.
>>>>
>>>> John :-#(#
>>>
>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>
>>
>> Finally someone got it!
>>
>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>
> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
> expose it in useful detail.

Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in their
own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?

"Look, Mommy, I made a pitcher!"

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>
>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>
>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>
>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>
>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>> expose it in useful detail.
>
>Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in their
>own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?

Unlikely in both respects.

The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
very good at it.

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 3:52:12 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
> >>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
> >>>>> kill files.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John :-#(#
> >>>>
> >>>> Please tell us your badge number.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Finally someone got it!
> >>>
> >>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
> >>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
> >>
> >> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
> >> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
> >> expose it in useful detail.
> >
> >Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in their
> >own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
> Unlikely in both respects.
>
> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
> very good at it.

What's to discuss if the "design" is standard subcircuits. If you have to make everything an invention, you're not going to get anywhere.

On 6/23/2021 12:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>>
>>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>>
>>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
>>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>>
>>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>>> expose it in useful detail.
>>
>> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in their
>> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>
> Unlikely in both respects.
>
> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
> very good at it.

Wow, only *two* designers in the entire country (obviously, anything that
isn't "publicly designed" isn't designed at all!) Imagine how easily
the Chinese will overtake us when THAT's your criteria...

Especially when you consider that designs have to be ACCIDENTS!

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 13:13:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 3:52:12 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
>> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>> >>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>> >>>>> kill files.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> John :-#(#
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Finally someone got it!
>> >>>
>> >>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
>> >>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>> >>
>> >> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>> >> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>> >> expose it in useful detail.
>> >
>> >Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in their
>> >own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>> Unlikely in both respects.
>>
>> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
>> very good at it.
>
>What's to discuss if the "design" is standard subcircuits. If you have to make everything an invention, you're not going to get anywhere.

Design engineers invent new concepts, new circuits. That's the
definition.

Copying eval boards or textbook circuits is no fun anyhow.

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 13:14:35 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 6/23/2021 12:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>>>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>>>
>>>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
>>>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>>>
>>>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>>>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>>>> expose it in useful detail.
>>>
>>> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in their
>>> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>>
>> Unlikely in both respects.
>>
>> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
>> very good at it.
>
>Wow, only *two* designers in the entire country (obviously, anything that
>isn't "publicly designed" isn't designed at all!)

Bizarre. I said no such things.

Design something. Post it. We'll discuss it.

> Imagine how easily
>the Chinese will overtake us when THAT's your criteria...

I see very little competition in instrumentation from Chinese
companies.

>
>Especially when you consider that designs have to be ACCIDENTS!

I think the communist culture beats the creativity out of people. Mao
sent the smart people to work on farms, or killed them; the
troublemakers.

Don Y wrote:
> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to
>>>>> put
>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>
>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>
>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>
>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>
>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>> expose it in useful detail.
>
> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in their
> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>
> "Look, Mommy, I made a pitcher!"

Yah, right. Try looking back in the archives ten years or so.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Don Y wrote:
> On 6/23/2021 12:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson
>>>>>> <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is
>>>>>>> to put
>>>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>>>
>>>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those
>>>>> are
>>>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>>>
>>>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>>>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>>>> expose it in useful detail.
>>>
>>> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in
>>> their
>>> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>>
>> Unlikely in both respects.
>>
>> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
>> very good at it.
>
> Wow, only *two* designers in the entire country (obviously, anything that
> isn't "publicly designed" isn't designed at all!)  Imagine how easily
> the Chinese will overtake us when THAT's your criteria...
>
> Especially when you consider that designs have to be ACCIDENTS!

I don't recall your having posted an open design problem ever. Did I
miss something?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:54:34 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Don Y wrote:
>> On 6/23/2021 12:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson
>>>>>>> <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is
>>>>>>>> to put
>>>>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>>>>
>>>>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>>>>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>>>>> expose it in useful detail.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in
>>>> their
>>>> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>>>
>>> Unlikely in both respects.
>>>
>>> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
>>> very good at it.
>>
>> Wow, only *two* designers in the entire country (obviously, anything that
>> isn't "publicly designed" isn't designed at all!)  Imagine how easily
>> the Chinese will overtake us when THAT's your criteria...
>>
>> Especially when you consider that designs have to be ACCIDENTS!
>
>I don't recall your having posted an open design problem ever. Did I
>miss something?
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

Most professional designers feel that they can't reveal anything work
related, which inhibits public discussion.

You and I and Win can post anything we feel like, unless some customer
NDA prevents it.

There's too much paranoia going around.

John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:54:34 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Don Y wrote:
>>> On 6/23/2021 12:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson
>>>>>>>> <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is
>>>>>>>>> to put
>>>>>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>>>>>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>>>>>> expose it in useful detail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in
>>>>> their
>>>>> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>>>>
>>>> Unlikely in both respects.
>>>>
>>>> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
>>>> very good at it.
>>>
>>> Wow, only *two* designers in the entire country (obviously, anything that
>>> isn't "publicly designed" isn't designed at all!)  Imagine how easily
>>> the Chinese will overtake us when THAT's your criteria...
>>>
>>> Especially when you consider that designs have to be ACCIDENTS!
>>
>> I don't recall your having posted an open design problem ever. Did I
>> miss something?

>
> Most professional designers feel that they can't reveal anything work
> related, which inhibits public discussion.
>
> You and I and Win can post anything we feel like, unless some customer
> NDA prevents it.
>
> There's too much paranoia going around.

Well, none of us has a boss to worry about. The retired multitude don't
either, but of course most of those guys aren't actually doing any
design work anymore, AFAICT.

Joerg, Win, JT, and the two Tim W's (among others) added a lot of
variety. I even miss Miso. (If I start missing Grise and DLUNU and
Eeyore and Guy Macon, put me out of my misery.)

But we soldier on.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:56:43 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:54:34 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 6/23/2021 12:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
>>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson
>>>>>>>>> <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is
>>>>>>>>>> to put
>>>>>>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>>>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>>>>>>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>>>>>>> expose it in useful detail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>>>>>
>>>>> Unlikely in both respects.
>>>>>
>>>>> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
>>>>> very good at it.
>>>>
>>>> Wow, only *two* designers in the entire country (obviously, anything that
>>>> isn't "publicly designed" isn't designed at all!)  Imagine how easily
>>>> the Chinese will overtake us when THAT's your criteria...
>>>>
>>>> Especially when you consider that designs have to be ACCIDENTS!
>>>
>>> I don't recall your having posted an open design problem ever. Did I
>>> miss something?
>
>>
>> Most professional designers feel that they can't reveal anything work
>> related, which inhibits public discussion.
>>
>> You and I and Win can post anything we feel like, unless some customer
>> NDA prevents it.
>>
>> There's too much paranoia going around.
>
>Well, none of us has a boss to worry about. The retired multitude don't
>either, but of course most of those guys aren't actually doing any
>design work anymore, AFAICT.
>
>Joerg, Win, JT, and the two Tim W's (among others) added a lot of
>variety. I even miss Miso. (If I start missing Grise and DLUNU and
>Eeyore and Guy Macon, put me out of my misery.)
>
>But we soldier on.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

One nice thing about having a job is that it presents us with
interesting problems. If we were retired but wanted to design stuff,
we'd have to invent our own challenges, and have nobody to admire the
results.

But we solder on.

On 6/23/2021 2:51 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
>> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>>
>>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>>
>>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
>>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>>
>>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>>> expose it in useful detail.
>>
>> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in their
>> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>>
>> "Look, Mommy, I made a pitcher!"
>
> Yah, right. Try looking back in the archives ten years or so.

Try 30. Or, weren't you around, back then?

On 6/23/2021 2:54 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
>> On 6/23/2021 12:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is to put
>>>>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those are
>>>>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>>>>
>>>>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>>>>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>>>>> expose it in useful detail.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in their
>>>> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>>>
>>> Unlikely in both respects.
>>>
>>> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
>>> very good at it.
>>
>> Wow, only *two* designers in the entire country (obviously, anything that
>> isn't "publicly designed" isn't designed at all!) Imagine how easily
>> the Chinese will overtake us when THAT's your criteria...
>>
>> Especially when you consider that designs have to be ACCIDENTS!
>
> I don't recall your having posted an open design problem ever. Did I miss
> something?

Because I neither need someone to praise my solutions nor do my work for me!

I ask about technologies and experiences/recommendations for components
(or technologies). I'm smart enough to figure out how to solve "engineering
problems" -- but, can benefit from other folks' first hand experiences with
specific products or technologies.

Here's an "open design problem":

Design a device that recognizes "gestures" issued by users, in real
time. (a gesture being a motion, through space -- like waving a hand,
nodding a head, flipping someone off, etc. YOU decide what the gestures
will be -- so you have more latitude in tuning the problem to your
particular solution; be able to justify those constraints, though!).

Some ideas for the transducer that can (interchangeably) feed your
device:
- mouse/trackball
- touchpad
- digitizing tablet
- joystick
- mouthstick (harder to use than a joystick -- but usable without hands!)
- camera tracking of eye motion
- camera tracking of hand motion (or foot, etc.)
- limb-mounted accelerometer
- image capture of a *static* path (i.e., a photo of something "drawn")

[Note that I've already done the research to tell you the sorts of
transducers that you might have to encounter; and, the sorts of
capabilities that users are likely to have! remember, the USER'S
needs dictate the choice of transducer, not you!]

As for constraints:
- assume the user has limited mobility, vision, cognitive skills, etc.
(i.e., the user might not have ARMS) -- don't forget to consider and
adapt to motion disorders from Parkinsonian tremor, essential tremor,
stroke induced, arthritis, etc.
- assume any number of users can interface to your device with a moment's
notice
- support at least 30 distinct gestures (like having 30 buttons on a panel)
- reject "motions" that are not likely legitimate gestures (so the user
doesn't have to TELL you, "I'm gesturing NOW, but not *now*!")
- you need to be able to "name" each gesture -- so your documentation
can refer to each as well as the user being able to discuss their
issuances (comparable to "press the ENTER key")
- if you allow your definition of the gesture set to be user dependent,
then you must ensure the rest of the system knows of these differences
(e.g., your documentation must dynamically reflect the gesture set
in effect at the moment)
- the device should not require "user training"; the device should,
instead, be "trained" BY the user (yet without an explicit training
period)
- the device must be capable of "showing" the user the nominal form
of each gesture
- a developer should be able to determine which gestures are least
likely to be misinterpreted (for other valid gestures) based on
the current user (e.g., you wouldn't want to have an "O" and a "0")
- the gesture has to be recognized within < 100ms of its completion
(because you have to provide confirmational feedback to the user
within << 300 ms)
[consider this in your design of the gestures, themselves. How quickly
can a user issue -- and your device recognize -- a "panic stop" gesture?]
- the device has to be portable (e.g., inside the actual transducer, ideally
able to be operated for 10 hours at a time, "untethered") This likely
implies "small", lightweight, ...
- the device has to be cheap (tens of dollars, *retail*)
- expect a usable lifespan of 20+ years (subject to mechanical wear-and-tear)

Note that, once done, all you have managed to achieve is the creation
of a "user INPUT" device -- little more than a *keyboard*, in terms of
functionality.

(We'll worry about speech recognition as another "problem" -- for those
folks who don't have the mobility or dexterity to use THIS interface)

Later, you can figure out how to "display" this information to the
user -- given that he may be blind, deaf, etc. The user *output* device.
That's the *second" "open design problem"...

Then, we can start to think about the machine that is going to be
controlled...

On 6/23/2021 3:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:54:34 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Don Y wrote:
>>> On 6/23/2021 12:52 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:15:47 -0700, Don Y
>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/23/2021 10:25 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:43:49 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2021/06/23 8:52 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 13:43:59 -0700, John Robertson
>>>>>>>> <spam@flippers.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some folks here should remember that the convention of Usenet is
>>>>>>>>> to put
>>>>>>>>> OT at the front of their Off-Topic posts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Otherwise you risk being thought of as simply trolls and joining the
>>>>>>>>> kill files.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John :-#(#
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please tell us your badge number.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finally someone got it!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Usenet groups run on courtesy and unenforceable 'rules'. Once those
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> no longer respected then the group dies off...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SED is not doing well. It's mostly OT posts from foul snarky old farts
>>>>>> who don't design electronics; if they do design, they are unwilling to
>>>>>> expose it in useful detail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe they don't NEED help with their designs - and are confident in
>>>>> their
>>>>> own abilities to not CRAVE having their egos stroked?
>>>>
>>>> Unlikely in both respects.
>>>>
>>>> The few people who do design in public, like Phil and Win, seem to be
>>>> very good at it.
>>>
>>> Wow, only *two* designers in the entire country (obviously, anything that
>>> isn't "publicly designed" isn't designed at all!) Imagine how easily
>>> the Chinese will overtake us when THAT's your criteria...
>>>
>>> Especially when you consider that designs have to be ACCIDENTS!
>>
>> I don't recall your having posted an open design problem ever. Did I
>> miss something?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> Most professional designers feel that they can't reveal anything work
> related, which inhibits public discussion.

Maybe they simply have no desire to discuss those things. You can always
go in search of information that is of interest to you... why do you need
others to dangle topics in front of you? No imagination? Curiosity?

I can lecture you for hours on how solid dosing forms are manufactured.
Why would I? If you care to find out, you can go look for yourself!

Want to know the rules of Pai Gow Poker? And, strategies to beat
the game/player? Important if you're going to design a machine
to take money from players -- with a goal of returning as little
of it as possible! But, likely not of interest to most folks.

> You and I and Win can post anything we feel like, unless some customer
> NDA prevents it.
>
> There's too much paranoia going around.

Where's the website where you PUBLISH your schematics and software?

Are you PARANOID?