Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 8:15:11 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.

Delta is rising everywhere. But relative numbers are higher in lower vaccination area. Nothing new.

On 7/7/2021 8:19 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 8:15:11 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>
> Delta is rising everywhere. But relative numbers are higher in lower vaccination area. Nothing new.

The people being hospitalized and the people dying are overwhelmingly
NOT *fully*-vaccinated (to the tune of 90+%).

The virus will "select" the skeptics -- until it finds a way
of mutating in one of those infections (and possibly gaining
leverage on the *vaccinated*)

On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 11:19:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 8:15:11 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
> Delta is rising everywhere. But relative numbers are higher in lower vaccination area. Nothing new.

I've not seen any evidence of the delta variant rising in an absolute sense in the areas with high vaccination rates. Yes, the percentages may be rising, but that can be true even if the delta variant is slowing the spread rather than rising in any given area. Looking at the total US numbers involves too much averaging and mixing of different effects to be a useful indicator. I still have not found a useful source of infection rates by variant. At least not one that doesn't involve lots of data collection and number crunching. The world-o-meter pages are fine for gross views, but continue to offer little detail and still proudly display collective per capita data rather than short term averages which is what is useful at this point, even without the variant data.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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On 7/7/2021 8:27 AM, Don Y wrote:
> The people being hospitalized and the people dying are overwhelmingly
> NOT *fully*-vaccinated (to the tune of 90+%).
>
> The virus will "select" the skeptics -- until it finds a way
> of mutating in one of those infections (and possibly gaining
> leverage on the *vaccinated*)

<https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html>

On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 11:27:18 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/7/2021 8:19 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 8:15:11 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
> >
> > Delta is rising everywhere. But relative numbers are higher in lower vaccination area. Nothing new.
> The people being hospitalized and the people dying are overwhelmingly
> NOT *fully*-vaccinated (to the tune of 90+%).
>
> The virus will "select" the skeptics -- until it finds a way
> of mutating in one of those infections (and possibly gaining
> leverage on the *vaccinated*)

Presently the infection rates in the US are low enough significant mutations are not so likely. India, Brazil and a few other countries with traditionally high infection rates are still dominating the pandemic. But the UK is coming from the rear to challenge the leaders. At least their death rate is still low.

It may well be that the UK is the poster child for what happens when a country has the pandemic marginally under control and the delta variant arrives only to laugh at their now ineffective protective measures and start spreading like the beginning of the pandemic when no one knew quite what to do.

Larkin likes to make fun of people who are concerned about this pandemic. Well, I am afraid. With the vaccine we have finally managed to reach a point where we can start to live our lives more normally. But if we don't take these variants seriously, we may well return to 100k per day sick and 2,000 per day dying. Ah, the good ol' days.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 8:43:57 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 11:27:18 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> > On 7/7/2021 8:19 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 8:15:11 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
> > >
> > > Delta is rising everywhere. But relative numbers are higher in lower vaccination area. Nothing new.
> > The people being hospitalized and the people dying are overwhelmingly
> > NOT *fully*-vaccinated (to the tune of 90+%).
> >
> > The virus will "select" the skeptics -- until it finds a way
> > of mutating in one of those infections (and possibly gaining
> > leverage on the *vaccinated*)
> Presently the infection rates in the US are low enough significant mutations are not so likely. India, Brazil and a few other countries with traditionally high infection rates are still dominating the pandemic. But the UK is coming from the rear to challenge the leaders. At least their death rate is still low.
>
> It may well be that the UK is the poster child for what happens when a country has the pandemic marginally under control and the delta variant arrives only to laugh at their now ineffective protective measures and start spreading like the beginning of the pandemic when no one knew quite what to do..
>
> Larkin likes to make fun of people who are concerned about this pandemic. Well, I am afraid. With the vaccine we have finally managed to reach a point where we can start to live our lives more normally. But if we don't take these variants seriously, we may well return to 100k per day sick and 2,000 per day dying. Ah, the good ol' days.

Here is the comparison of first week of July to June. Actually, E484Q seems to be picking up. There are a few cases of Combo A (L452R+E484Q), but not in the usual places. I have to recheck the database to see where.

Jun 2021 (12070 samples)
____USA_________61%___61%___63%___59%____5%___62%____3%___38%___59%___0.00%___59%
____USA/NY______43%___43%___46%___43%____7%___50%____7%___50%___43%___0.00%___43%
____USA/NJ______59%___59%___59%___59%____9%___66%____8%___34%___59%___0.00%___59%
____USA/PA______63%___63%___64%___63%____5%___67%____5%___32%___62%___0.00%___63%
____USA/MI______76%___76%___77%___76%____8%___84%____8%___16%___76%___0.00%___76%
____USA/FL______69%___69%___70%___69%____5%___73%____3%___27%___69%___0.00%___69%
____USA/TX______80%___80%___81%___81%____1%___82%____1%___18%___80%___0.00%___79%
____USA/NV_______8%____8%___23%____8%____1%____9%____1%___91%____8%___0.00%____8%
____USA/AZ______33%___33%___33%___33%____1%___34%____1%___66%___33%___0.00%___33%
____USA/WA______47%___47%___58%___48%____8%___56%____8%___44%___48%___0.00%___47%
____USA/CA______48%___48%___46%___33%___19%___36%____3%___64%___33%___0.00%___33%
____USA/CA-LA___23%___23%___26%___24%____3%___26%____2%___74%___23%___0.00%___23%
Jul 2021 (3874 samples)
____USA_________36%___36%___40%___36%___18%___40%____5%___57%___35%___0.28%___36%
____USA/NY______20%___20%___25%___25%___10%___25%____0%___75%___20%___0.00%___20%
____USA/NJ______61%___61%___61%___61%___28%___61%____0%___39%___61%___0.00%___61%
____USA/PA______67%___67%___67%___67%___14%___76%___10%___24%___67%___0.00%___67%
____USA/MI______75%___75%___75%___75%___17%___92%___17%____8%___75%___0.00%___75%
____USA/FL______52%___52%___52%___52%___14%___54%____0%___46%___52%___0.00%___52%
____USA/TX______41%___40%___40%___39%___30%___41%____1%___56%___38%___0.00%___39%
____USA/NV______41%___42%___41%___41%___45%___43%____1%___58%___41%___0.00%___41%
____USA/AZ______11%___11%___15%___12%____8%___13%____0%___85%___12%___0.00%___11%
____USA/WA______18%___17%___18%___17%____5%___18%____1%___81%___16%___0.00%___17%
____USA/CA______27%___26%___28%___27%___49%___30%____3%___66%___25%___0.00%___26%
____USA/CA-LA___11%___11%___13%___11%___37%___11%____0%___89%___11%___0.00%___11%
______________V213G_K417N_L452R_E484K_E484Q_N501Y_A570D_D614G_P681H___CDC_A_CDC_D
A:L452R+E484Q D:L452R+K417N

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 08:19:25 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 8:15:11 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>
>Delta is rising everywhere. But relative numbers are higher in lower vaccination area. Nothing new.

Infection and death rates are near zero in the US, a few per cent
compared to the peaks, and mostly tapering off. NPR has mostly
switched back to talking about race and climate change.

People can come out from under their beds and have a life again. Maybe
design something. Even pandemics get boring.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 08:15:07 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

>Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>
>Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

We'll soon find out by monitoring the UK.
So far >80% delta in a rising detection rate, but
no increase in <1ppm/day fatalities.

What's worrying (me) is increasing detection and
mortality in areas without vaccination, like S.Africa
and Argentina.

Previous variants didn't seem to affect these areas,
during the warmer months, in the southern hemisphere.

RL

On 7/7/2021 9:57 AM, legg wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 08:15:07 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>>
>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
>
> We'll soon find out by monitoring the UK.
> So far >80% delta in a rising detection rate, but
> no increase in <1ppm/day fatalities.
>
> What's worrying (me) is increasing detection and
> mortality in areas without vaccination, like S.Africa
> and Argentina.
>
> Previous variants didn't seem to affect these areas,
> during the warmer months, in the southern hemisphere.

That's always the rub. "Cases" can be on the decline
in a given area (e.g., due to vaccinations) but that
doesn't significantly impact the global mutation rate.
And, unless your borders are closed, there's no way
of knowing which "visitor" is acting as a host for
a new variant!

On 7/7/2021 8:43 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/7/2021 8:27 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> The people being hospitalized and the people dying are overwhelmingly
>> NOT *fully*-vaccinated (to the tune of 90+%).
>>
>> The virus will "select" the skeptics -- until it finds a way
>> of mutating in one of those infections (and possibly gaining
>> leverage on the *vaccinated*)
>
> <https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html>

"In June, all Covid-19 deaths in Maryland occurred in unvaccinated people,
according to a tweet Tuesday by Michael Ricci, communications director for
Gov. Larry Hogan."

[Note that Hogan is a Republican so unlikely to be making vaccines
"look good", all else considered]

"Additionally, Ricci tweeted, 95% of new Covid-19 cases in the state -- as
well as 93% of new hospitalizations -- occurred in people who were
unvaccinated."

I guess it's only a matter of time before the republicans start asking for
more federal aid. I wonder how keen the democrats will be to sign on
given that they've already made the vaccines FREE!

On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 11:15:11 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>
> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

I found an article in the NY Times about this and still no absolute numbers (maybe if I did into the source later today I'll find something), but they clearly say the delta variant accounts for more than 50% of COVID infections in the US. The infection rate has stopped dropping and the trend over the last two weeks is rising. So it is looking like as a whole, the country is vulnerable to this delta variant and we are going to see rising numbers.... at least in some parts of the country.

This article says the vaccination rate for the US is close to 60% fully vaccinated (over 18) and close to 70% with one shot (which maintains the vulnerable status to the delta variant). But other articles point out that the states with the highest infection rates have fully vaccinated rates under 40%. These states are the breeding grounds for this strain keeping it active for the rest of us. I guess a few more deaths is the price we pay for vaccine freedom.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

The US has not been at the forefront of this disease since day one. The only truly effective thing we've done is to be part of the creation of vaccines. There have been many ineffective government actions that failed to accomplish what was needed to prevent some of the many deaths from the pandemic... or lack of actions or even actions that were counter productive. This is a time when we could stave off another massive wave of infections and death. But there are many of the cognitively challenged such as some in this group wishing to pat ourselves on the back for our present success who fail to understand this is a time to be just as cautious if not moreso to prevent another massive wave as the delta variant spreads and the fall infection rise approaches.

Our industries are expert at predicting the seasonal consumer demand and how to address the needed production ramp up. But we can seem to understand the simple and obvious patterns with this pandemic. If we can't improve our vaccination percentages we will see the result in the delta variant and possibly others creating a new wave in the fall that we can't address by returning to distancing and wearing masks because it will be too late. But so many, such as a few here, think this is nothing to worry about. After all, the numbers are presently low.

Many of these same people feel we should not allow flood insurance to be sold in a flood plane. But it's perfectly ok to act like there is no risk from the pandemic and then expect the healthcare system to try to save you. Even if some of the idiotic here have been infected with COVID in the early part of the pandemic, the disease is more infectious now and having been infected appears to be the least effective way to be protected.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>
> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
>

"Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and Pournelle)

On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
> > Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
> >
> > Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
> >
> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and Pournelle)

Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were antediluvian, which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_MacLeod

is a welcome exception. He went to Glasgow University - and Glasgow had always been hot-bed of left-wing activism - and he has learned enough about left-wing politics to write about it sensibly. He's not a propagandist in the way that Pournelle and he's a lot better informed.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
>>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to
>>> anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their
>>> own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to
>>> analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that
>>> the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where
>>> vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping
>>> in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>>>
>>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
>>>
>> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
>> Pournelle)
>
> Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
> knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were antediluvian,
> which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.

Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.

I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor
column in Byte. It seemed as if he didn't understand
something immediately, then it had to be crap. Mind you,
that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
libertarian attitude.

OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry
Niven. Where Niven posited libertarian views, he did
have the decency to consider the negative consequences
of then.

On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 9:15:37 PM UTC+10, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
> >>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to
> >>> anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their
> >>> own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to
> >>> analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that
> >>> the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where
> >>> vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping
> >>> in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
> >>>
> >>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
> >>>
> >> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
> >> Pournelle)
> >
> > Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
> > knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were antediluvian,
> > which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.
> Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.
>
> I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor
> column in Byte. It seemed as if he didn't understand
> something immediately, then it had to be crap. Mind you,
> that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
> libertarian attitude.
>
> OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry
> Niven. Where Niven posited libertarian views, he did
> have the decency to consider the negative consequences
> of then.

Larry Niven is much better value. His future universe may not be quite as impressive as the late Ian Bank's "Culture" novels, but his characters are a bit more human. He's up there with Neal Stephenson, Fredrick Pohl, Cyril Kornbluth and Cordwainer Smith.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 7/9/2021 4:15 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
>>>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to
>>>> anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their
>>>> own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to
>>>> analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that
>>>> the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where
>>>> vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping
>>>> in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>>>>
>>>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
>>>>
>>> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
>>> Pournelle)
>>
>> Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
>> knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were antediluvian,
>> which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.
>
> Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.
>
> I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor
> column in Byte. It seemed as if he didn't understand
> something immediately, then it had to be crap. Mind you,
> that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
> libertarian attitude.

I think many folks who "write columns" are just grinding out
N column inches (to get paid), without really putting much
effort/thought/reputation into their words. Finding something
*interesting* to comment on weekly/monthly and doing a good
job of it in a limited space would be a tedious job!

> OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry
> Niven. Where Niven posited libertarian views, he did
> have the decency to consider the negative consequences
> of then.

I think everything I read of Pournelle was coauthored by Niven.
Nothing stands out as particularly entertaining (I read fiction
for *entertainment*, not to be preached at, pontificated at, etc.;
are you listening, Lewis?)

I found Gene Wolfe a better fit for "entertainment value".
Or Stephenson (though some of his tomes are too wordy), or
Stross (who has some entertaining ideas as to where technology
*could* go), or...

If I can't read a page a minute, it's too dull. Non-fiction
and technical literature take a LOT of time to get through
so I want entertainment efforts to be exciting!

On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 12:15:24 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
>>>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to
>>>> anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their
>>>> own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to
>>>> analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that
>>>> the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where
>>>> vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping
>>>> in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>>>>
>>>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
>>>>
>>> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
>>> Pournelle)
>>
>> Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
>> knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were antediluvian,
>> which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.
>
>Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.
>
>I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor
>column in Byte. It seemed as if he didn't understand
>something immediately, then it had to be crap. Mind you,
>that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
>libertarian attitude.
>
>OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry
>Niven. Where Niven posited libertarian views, he did
>have the decency to consider the negative consequences
>of then.

SF was and is juvenile fiction. I spent my allowance on electronic
magazines.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On 7/9/2021 8:46 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 12:15:24 +0100, Tom Gardner
> <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
>>>>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to
>>>>> anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their
>>>>> own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to
>>>>> analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that
>>>>> the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where
>>>>> vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping
>>>>> in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>>>>>
>>>>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
>>>>>
>>>> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
>>>> Pournelle)
>>>
>>> Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
>>> knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were antediluvian,
>>> which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.
>>
>> Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.
>>
>> I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor
>> column in Byte. It seemed as if he didn't understand
>> something immediately, then it had to be crap. Mind you,
>> that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
>> libertarian attitude.
>>
>> OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry
>> Niven. Where Niven posited libertarian views, he did
>> have the decency to consider the negative consequences
>> of then.
>
> SF was and is juvenile fiction. I spent my allowance on electronic
> magazines.

I spent my "allowance" on schooling -- weekend/summer programs for
gifted students, night courses at a local college, etc.

On 09/07/21 14:22, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 9:15:37 PM UTC+10, Tom Gardner wrote:
>> On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
>>>>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news
>>>>> to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting
>>>>> their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers
>>>>> to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case
>>>>> that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country
>>>>> where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are
>>>>> dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>>>>>
>>>>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
>>>>>
>>>> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
>>>> Pournelle)
>>>
>>> Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
>>> knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were
>>> antediluvian, which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.
>> Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.
>>
>> I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor column in Byte. It
>> seemed as if he didn't understand something immediately, then it had to be
>> crap. Mind you, that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
>> libertarian attitude.
>>
>> OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry Niven. Where Niven
>> posited libertarian views, he did have the decency to consider the negative
>> consequences of then.
>
> Larry Niven is much better value. His future universe may not be quite as
> impressive as the late Ian Bank's "Culture" novels, but his characters are a
> bit more human. He's up there with Neal Stephenson, Fredrick Pohl, Cyril
> Kornbluth and Cordwainer Smith.

Yes, I've always preferred Niven too.

I really /ought/ to read some Banks, I never got on with
Kornbluth, but Cordwainer Smith is rather good. I even have
many of his stories in the original pulp magazine form.

I'm also rather partial to Lord Dunsany's short stories;
I suppose you might claim they belong a universe.

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 1:46:35 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 12:15:24 +0100, Tom Gardner
> <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
> >>>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news to
> >>>> anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting their
> >>>> own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers to
> >>>> analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case that
> >>>> the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country where
> >>>> vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are dropping
> >>>> in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
> >>>>
> >>>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
> >>>>
> >>> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
> >>> Pournelle)
> >>
> >> Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
> >> knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were antediluvian,
> >> which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.
> >
> >Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.
> >
> >I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor
> >column in Byte. It seemed as if he didn't understand
> >something immediately, then it had to be crap. Mind you,
> >that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
> >libertarian attitude.
> >
> >OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry
> >Niven. Where Niven posited libertarian views, he did
> >have the decency to consider the negative consequences
> >of then.
>
> SF was and is juvenile fiction. I spent my allowance on electronic magazines.

Some science fiction was written for the juvenile market - none apparently juvenile enough to appeal to John Larkin.

There's more serious stuff around. John Larkin likes Jane Austen, Dorothy Sayers and Wodeshouse. If he likes Wodehouse, he ought to like Terry Pratchett, whose fantasy novels follow closely in the same tradition, but Terry Prachett knew a lot more about science than Wodehouse ever did, and that may have worried John Larkin, who doesn't.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 3:20:25 AM UTC+10, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 09/07/21 14:22, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 9:15:37 PM UTC+10, Tom Gardner wrote:
> >> On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>>> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
> >>>>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news
> >>>>> to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting
> >>>>> their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers
> >>>>> to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case
> >>>>> that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country
> >>>>> where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are
> >>>>> dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
> >>>>>
> >>>> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
> >>>> Pournelle)
> >>>
> >>> Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
> >>> knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were
> >>> antediluvian, which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.
> >> Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.
> >>
> >> I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor column in Byte. It
> >> seemed as if he didn't understand something immediately, then it had to be
> >> crap. Mind you, that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
> >> libertarian attitude.
> >>
> >> OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry Niven. Where Niven
> >> posited libertarian views, he did have the decency to consider the negative
> >> consequences of then.
> >
> > Larry Niven is much better value. His future universe may not be quite as
> > impressive as the late Ian Bank's "Culture" novels, but his characters are a
> > bit more human. He's up there with Neal Stephenson, Fredrick Pohl, Cyril
> > Kornbluth and Cordwainer Smith.
> Yes, I've always preferred Niven too.
>
> I really /ought/ to read some Banks, I never got on with
> Kornbluth, but Cordwainer Smith is rather good. I even have
> many of his stories in the original pulp magazine form.
>
> I'm also rather partial to Lord Dunsany's short stories;
> I suppose you might claim they belong a universe.

I read a lot of Dunsany when I was a lot younger. His stuff was entertaining, but thin.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 10/07/21 05:21, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 3:20:25 AM UTC+10, Tom Gardner wrote:
>> On 09/07/21 14:22, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 9:15:37 PM UTC+10, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>> On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not news
>>>>>>> to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without injecting
>>>>>>> their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of hard numbers
>>>>>>> to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to be making a case
>>>>>>> that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in areas of the country
>>>>>>> where vaccination rates are low while the infection rate numbers are
>>>>>>> dropping in the areas of the US where the vaccination rate is high.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
>>>>>> Pournelle)
>>>>>
>>>>> Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
>>>>> knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were
>>>>> antediluvian, which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.
>>>> Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.
>>>>
>>>> I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor column in Byte. It
>>>> seemed as if he didn't understand something immediately, then it had to be
>>>> crap. Mind you, that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
>>>> libertarian attitude.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry Niven. Where Niven
>>>> posited libertarian views, he did have the decency to consider the negative
>>>> consequences of then.
>>>
>>> Larry Niven is much better value. His future universe may not be quite as
>>> impressive as the late Ian Bank's "Culture" novels, but his characters are a
>>> bit more human. He's up there with Neal Stephenson, Fredrick Pohl, Cyril
>>> Kornbluth and Cordwainer Smith.
>> Yes, I've always preferred Niven too.
>>
>> I really /ought/ to read some Banks, I never got on with
>> Kornbluth, but Cordwainer Smith is rather good. I even have
>> many of his stories in the original pulp magazine form.
>>
>> I'm also rather partial to Lord Dunsany's short stories;
>> I suppose you might claim they belong a universe.
>
> I read a lot of Dunsany when I was a lot younger. His stuff was entertaining, but thin.

I wouldn't read too many in one sitting, but they have a
certain elegance. That's unsurprising given the sources
of his inspiration.

I was surprised to see a couple of his stories had been
made into movies.

On 10/07/21 05:16, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 1:46:35 AM UTC+10,
> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 12:15:24 +0100, Tom Gardner <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/07/21 10:49, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 12:47:26 PM UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>> On 08-Jul-21 1:15 am, Rick C wrote:
>>>>>> Vaccine skepticism is going to kill people. I think this is not
>>>>>> news to anyone who can see the progress of the pandemic without
>>>>>> injecting their own personal bias. I still have not found a lot of
>>>>>> hard numbers to analyze, but I've read some articles that seem to
>>>>>> be making a case that the delta variant is spreading rapidly in
>>>>>> areas of the country where vaccination rates are low while the
>>>>>> infection rate numbers are dropping in the areas of the US where
>>>>>> the vaccination rate is high.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
>>>>>>
>>>>> "Think of it as evolution in action." (Oath of Fealty, Niven and
>>>>> Pournelle)
>>>>
>>>> Pournelle was a thick-eared right-wing thug. He died in 2017. He was
>>>> knowledgeable about quite a few areas, but his politics were
>>>> antediluvian, which isn't uncommon in science fiction writers.
>>>
>>> Too many of them were influenced by Ayn Rand.
>>>
>>> I was never impressed by Pournelle, esp. his Chaos Manor column in Byte.
>>> It seemed as if he didn't understand something immediately, then it had
>>> to be crap. Mind you, that kind of reasoning does appear to be a typical
>>> libertarian attitude.
>>>
>>> OTOH, he did write The Mote in God's Eye - with Larry Niven. Where Niven
>>> posited libertarian views, he did have the decency to consider the
>>> negative consequences of then.
>>
>> SF was and is juvenile fiction. I spent my allowance on electronic
>> magazines.
>
> Some science fiction was written for the juvenile market - none apparently
> juvenile enough to appeal to John Larkin.
>
> There's more serious stuff around. John Larkin likes Jane Austen, Dorothy
> Sayers and Wodeshouse. If he likes Wodehouse, he ought to like Terry
> Pratchett, whose fantasy novels follow closely in the same tradition, but
> Terry Prachett knew a lot more about science than Wodehouse ever did, and
> that may have worried John Larkin, who doesn't.

I can't stand Sayers; she was a snob whose characters were
designed to appeal to readers that thought good breeding was
more important than competence gained through hard work.