Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?

On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
>

Ensure you are turning it the right direction.

Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.

If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.

Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
impact driver will be destructive.

p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
or both or neither?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
> >
> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
>
> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
>
> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
>
> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
> impact driver will be destructive.
>
> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
> or both or neither?

With the penetrating oil and clamping the drive side notched socket on, it finally came loose but was very tight most of the way out. It appeared as if it have been installed with something that looked like transparent plastic neverseize. I sprayed some additional penetrating oil from the open side and I will use the hammer driver when the adapter comes tomorrow. I think that I can protect the end of the BB well enough not to destroy it with the sharp blow. I suppose it doesn't make any difference but I hate to destroy hard to find components. And I'm still waiting for the repaired rear derailleur from the Campy service center so there's no particular hurry.

I have an idea that the finished bike will weight 19 lbs. or a quarter of a lb. more than my Emonda.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 2:35:58 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
> > >
> > Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
> >
> > Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
> > a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
> >
> > If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
> > the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
> >
> > Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
> > impact driver will be destructive.
> >
> > p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
> > or both or neither?
> With the penetrating oil and clamping the drive side notched socket on, it finally came loose but was very tight most of the way out. It appeared as if it have been installed with something that looked like transparent plastic neverseize. I sprayed some additional penetrating oil from the open side and I will use the hammer driver when the adapter comes tomorrow. I think that I can protect the end of the BB well enough not to destroy it with the sharp blow. I suppose it doesn't make any difference but I hate to destroy hard to find components. And I'm still waiting for the repaired rear derailleur from the Campy service center so there's no particular hurry.
>
> I have an idea that the finished bike will weight 19 lbs. or a quarter of a lb. more than my Emonda.

By the way, I usually have the threads chased and just rely upon the neverseize that comes on the Campy cups. When I used grease I never noticed that it made removal any easier.

On 11/2/2022 4:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
>>>
>> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
>>
>> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
>> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
>>
>> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
>> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
>>
>> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
>> impact driver will be destructive.
>>
>> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
>> or both or neither?
>
> With the penetrating oil and clamping the drive side notched socket on, it finally came loose but was very tight most of the way out. It appeared as if it have been installed with something that looked like transparent plastic neverseize. I sprayed some additional penetrating oil from the open side and I will use the hammer driver when the adapter comes tomorrow. I think that I can protect the end of the BB well enough not to destroy it with the sharp blow. I suppose it doesn't make any difference but I hate to destroy hard to find components. And I'm still waiting for the repaired rear derailleur from the Campy service center so there's no particular hurry.
>
> I have an idea that the finished bike will weight 19 lbs. or a quarter of a lb. more than my Emonda.
>

What's a hammer driver? I thought you meant an impact wrench:

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Wrenches/2767-20

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 02 Nov 2022 19:09:48 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>What's a hammer driver? I thought you meant an impact wrench:
>https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Wrenches/2767-20

Careful with the Milwaukee 2767-20 impact wrench. The original model
2767-20 H96A works well. The improved and then recalled H96B model is
badly designed and will fail. Milwaukee is exchanging the H96B for an
H96A at no charge.

"Milwaukee Quietly Put Out a New 1/2" High Torque & People are Pissed"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iusVoa21daQ>

"Milwaukee’s Official Statement on Our Video About Impact Issues"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5nUiskNpw>
Click on "Show More" in the video description box.

"If users are experiencing an issue, they are encouraged to send their
tool in for repair or replacement by utilizing our eService portal -
http://bit.ly/2cwwBwJ. All products with the "H96B" distinction on the
serial code will be replaced with "H96A"".

FAIL Milwaukee M18 High Torque 1/2" Impact Wrench 2767-20
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoSJt7FMB0g>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/2/2022 8:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Nov 2022 19:09:48 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> What's a hammer driver? I thought you meant an impact wrench:
>> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Wrenches/2767-20
>
> Careful with the Milwaukee 2767-20 impact wrench. The original model
> 2767-20 H96A works well. The improved and then recalled H96B model is
> badly designed and will fail. Milwaukee is exchanging the H96B for an
> H96A at no charge.
>
> "Milwaukee Quietly Put Out a New 1/2" High Torque & People are Pissed"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iusVoa21daQ>
>
> "Milwaukee’s Official Statement on Our Video About Impact Issues"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5nUiskNpw>
> Click on "Show More" in the video description box.
>
> "If users are experiencing an issue, they are encouraged to send their
> tool in for repair or replacement by utilizing our eService portal -
> http://bit.ly/2cwwBwJ. All products with the "H96B" distinction on the
> serial code will be replaced with "H96A"".
>
> FAIL Milwaukee M18 High Torque 1/2" Impact Wrench 2767-20
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoSJt7FMB0g>
>
>

Admittedly I have never used an electric one.I just did a
web search and that Milwaukee was first up.

My own is 1960s SnapOn pneumatic, all metal, made in USA (2d
owner). Very effective and completely reliable.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Just to educate myself on terminology - I might have the wrong idea here.

To me a hammer drill is for putting holes in masonry. I do it so rarely I'm fine with the HF cheapie. Having tried this with a regular drill - yup, the cheapest hammer driver works better than my Bosch drill.

A hammer driver is this chunk of metal I hold in one hand and whack with a hammer. If I'm lucky enough to have set it to the right direction it will loosen some really tough bolts, with enough patience.

An impact wrench is that air tool the auto shop uses, solely intended to get lug nuts so tight nobody can get them off without coming back and paying them again.

On 11/3/2022 6:59 AM, Tim R wrote:
> Just to educate myself on terminology - I might have the wrong idea here.
>
> To me a hammer drill is for putting holes in masonry. I do it so rarely I'm fine with the HF cheapie. Having tried this with a regular drill - yup, the cheapest hammer driver works better than my Bosch drill.
>
> A hammer driver is this chunk of metal I hold in one hand and whack with a hammer. If I'm lucky enough to have set it to the right direction it will loosen some really tough bolts, with enough patience.
>
> An impact wrench is that air tool the auto shop uses, solely intended to get lug nuts so tight nobody can get them off without coming back and paying them again.
>

Yep, I've seen that.

There is a specified torque for wheel nuts (and everything
else) and a good mechanic adjusts his tool to that rating,
ideally checking them by hand with a torque wrench after.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 5:09:51 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/2/2022 4:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
> >>>
> >> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
> >>
> >> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
> >> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
> >>
> >> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
> >> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
> >>
> >> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
> >> impact driver will be destructive.
> >>
> >> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
> >> or both or neither?
> >
> > With the penetrating oil and clamping the drive side notched socket on, it finally came loose but was very tight most of the way out. It appeared as if it have been installed with something that looked like transparent plastic neverseize. I sprayed some additional penetrating oil from the open side and I will use the hammer driver when the adapter comes tomorrow. I think that I can protect the end of the BB well enough not to destroy it with the sharp blow. I suppose it doesn't make any difference but I hate to destroy hard to find components. And I'm still waiting for the repaired rear derailleur from the Campy service center so there's no particular hurry.
> >
> > I have an idea that the finished bike will weight 19 lbs. or a quarter of a lb. more than my Emonda.
> >
> What's a hammer driver? I thought you meant an impact wrench:
>
> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Wrenches/2767-20
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

They are used for breaking a tight connection. You put the tool set for the proper direction and hit the base of it with a hammer which will free a tight connection. This should loosen the threaded piece enough for it to be extracted.

What I did on the opposite side was to clamp the tool into place with a carpenters clamp which held everything tightly together and then twist it with a large crescent wrench. This doesn't work for the splined side and I don't want to strip the splines.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F5XOFFM/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=63e1e0040666a00239eee02892721f0a&content-id=amzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60%3Aamzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60&hsa_cr_id=5692794540001&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=74fc2d96-9d53-49e5-85e9-0bd838215dae&pd_rd_w=W7Ejn&pd_rd_wg=H0cW2&qid=1667488030&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_img&sr=1-1-9e67e56a-6f64-441f-a281-df67fc737124

I am a bit worried that this could possibly strip that splined aluminum part. But what I will do then is knock the bearing case all of the way through and out the other side and then peel the carrier out of the bottom bracket case. I will have the threads chased and the mechanic prefers to install the new Ultra Torque cups himself.

On 11/3/2022 7:59 AM, Tim R wrote:
> Just to educate myself on terminology - I might have the wrong idea here.
>
> To me a hammer drill is for putting holes in masonry. I do it so rarely I'm fine with the HF cheapie. Having tried this with a regular drill - yup, the cheapest hammer driver works better than my Bosch drill.
>
> A hammer driver is this chunk of metal I hold in one hand and whack with a hammer. If I'm lucky enough to have set it to the right direction it will loosen some really tough bolts, with enough patience.
>
> An impact wrench is that air tool the auto shop uses, solely intended to get lug nuts so tight nobody can get them off without coming back and paying them again.

+1 on all three.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/3/2022 10:21 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 5:09:51 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/2/2022 4:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
>>>>>
>>>> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
>>>>
>>>> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
>>>> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
>>>>
>>>> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
>>>> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
>>>>
>>>> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
>>>> impact driver will be destructive.
>>>>
>>>> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
>>>> or both or neither?
>>>
>>> With the penetrating oil and clamping the drive side notched socket on, it finally came loose but was very tight most of the way out. It appeared as if it have been installed with something that looked like transparent plastic neverseize. I sprayed some additional penetrating oil from the open side and I will use the hammer driver when the adapter comes tomorrow. I think that I can protect the end of the BB well enough not to destroy it with the sharp blow. I suppose it doesn't make any difference but I hate to destroy hard to find components. And I'm still waiting for the repaired rear derailleur from the Campy service center so there's no particular hurry.
>>>
>>> I have an idea that the finished bike will weight 19 lbs. or a quarter of a lb. more than my Emonda.
>>>
>> What's a hammer driver? I thought you meant an impact wrench:
>>
>> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Wrenches/2767-20

> They are used for breaking a tight connection. You put the tool set for the proper direction and hit the base of it with a hammer which will free a tight connection. This should loosen the threaded piece enough for it to be extracted.
>
> What I did on the opposite side was to clamp the tool into place with a carpenters clamp which held everything tightly together and then twist it with a large crescent wrench. This doesn't work for the splined side and I don't want to strip the splines.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F5XOFFM/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=63e1e0040666a00239eee02892721f0a&content-id=amzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60%3Aamzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60&hsa_cr_id=5692794540001&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=74fc2d96-9d53-49e5-85e9-0bd838215dae&pd_rd_w=W7Ejn&pd_rd_wg=H0cW2&qid=1667488030&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_img&sr=1-1-9e67e56a-6f64-441f-a281-df67fc737124
>
> I am a bit worried that this could possibly strip that splined aluminum part. But what I will do then is knock the bearing case all of the way through and out the other side and then peel the carrier out of the bottom bracket case. I will have the threads chased and the mechanic prefers to install the new Ultra Torque cups himself.
>

Next time use the nice Tacx tool:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/BBTOOLS.JPG

The one for ISIS spline has a green handle. NL quality,
great design.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 10:39:43 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/3/2022 10:21 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 5:09:51 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 11/2/2022 4:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
> >>>>
> >>>> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
> >>>> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
> >>>> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
> >>>>
> >>>> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
> >>>> impact driver will be destructive.
> >>>>
> >>>> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
> >>>> or both or neither?
> >>>
> >>> With the penetrating oil and clamping the drive side notched socket on, it finally came loose but was very tight most of the way out. It appeared as if it have been installed with something that looked like transparent plastic neverseize. I sprayed some additional penetrating oil from the open side and I will use the hammer driver when the adapter comes tomorrow. I think that I can protect the end of the BB well enough not to destroy it with the sharp blow. I suppose it doesn't make any difference but I hate to destroy hard to find components. And I'm still waiting for the repaired rear derailleur from the Campy service center so there's no particular hurry.
> >>>
> >>> I have an idea that the finished bike will weight 19 lbs. or a quarter of a lb. more than my Emonda.
> >>>
> >> What's a hammer driver? I thought you meant an impact wrench:
> >>
> >> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Wrenches/2767-20
> > They are used for breaking a tight connection. You put the tool set for the proper direction and hit the base of it with a hammer which will free a tight connection. This should loosen the threaded piece enough for it to be extracted.
> >
> > What I did on the opposite side was to clamp the tool into place with a carpenters clamp which held everything tightly together and then twist it with a large crescent wrench. This doesn't work for the splined side and I don't want to strip the splines.
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F5XOFFM/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=63e1e0040666a00239eee02892721f0a&content-id=amzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60%3Aamzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60&hsa_cr_id=5692794540001&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=74fc2d96-9d53-49e5-85e9-0bd838215dae&pd_rd_w=W7Ejn&pd_rd_wg=H0cW2&qid=1667488030&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_img&sr=1-1-9e67e56a-6f64-441f-a281-df67fc737124
> >
> > I am a bit worried that this could possibly strip that splined aluminum part. But what I will do then is knock the bearing case all of the way through and out the other side and then peel the carrier out of the bottom bracket case. I will have the threads chased and the mechanic prefers to install the new Ultra Torque cups himself.
> >
> Next time use the nice Tacx tool:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/BBTOOLS.JPG
>
> The one for ISIS spline has a green handle. NL quality,
> great design.

I guess I'm not clear what you mean. I have the FSA tool that engages the maximum number of splines. But it is a 1/2" square drive and my hammer driver is 3/8" so I'm waiting for the adapter to be delivered by Amazon. Harbor Freight and Tools should have something like that but they don't. The local auto shops charge two arms and two legs for the $10 adapter.

On Wed, 02 Nov 2022 20:34:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 11/2/2022 8:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 02 Nov 2022 19:09:48 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> What's a hammer driver? I thought you meant an impact wrench:
>>> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Wrenches/2767-20
>>
>> Careful with the Milwaukee 2767-20 impact wrench. The original model
>> 2767-20 H96A works well. The improved and then recalled H96B model is
>> badly designed and will fail. Milwaukee is exchanging the H96B for an
>> H96A at no charge.
>>
>> "Milwaukee Quietly Put Out a New 1/2" High Torque & People are Pissed"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iusVoa21daQ>
>>
>> "Milwaukee’s Official Statement on Our Video About Impact Issues"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5nUiskNpw>
>> Click on "Show More" in the video description box.
>>
>> "If users are experiencing an issue, they are encouraged to send their
>> tool in for repair or replacement by utilizing our eService portal -
>> http://bit.ly/2cwwBwJ. All products with the "H96B" distinction on the
>> serial code will be replaced with "H96A"".
>>
>> FAIL Milwaukee M18 High Torque 1/2" Impact Wrench 2767-20
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoSJt7FMB0g>

>Admittedly I have never used an electric one.I just did a
>web search and that Milwaukee was first up.

I just wanted to be sure that you knew about the recall.

I borrowed a smaller model Milwaukee when I rotated my tires. It
worked as advertised. However, the torque was a bit too much for my
wrist, which was sore for a few hours.

A new 2767-20 tool, without batteries or charger, is quite expensive
at $329:
<https://www.homedepot.com/s/Milwaukee%202767-20?NCNI-5>

I found out about the recall when a mechanic friend bought one of the
defective models. It started making ominous noises almost
immediately. Two days later, it failed completely. Video of an
autopsy of the planetary gear mechanism:
<https://youtu.be/iusVoa21daQ?t=303>
The tool that failed had all 3 (cantilevered and unsupported)
planetary gear pins broken. I wasn't involved in getting it exchanged
under warranty at Home Depot, but I was told it was difficult.

>My own is 1960s SnapOn pneumatic, all metal, made in USA (2d
>owner). Very effective and completely reliable.

I also use air tools. My kit is on loan to a friend who is rebuilding
his RV. I might see it again in a few months. It's a generic
assortment of Husky (Home Depot) air tools, that were being
discontinued and were priced absurdly low at about $50 for the set. I
couldn't resist. I don't use air tools very often so I don't know if
Husky has problems.

When I have a stuck bolt problem, the very last thing I'll try is an
impact wrench. I've removed aluminum threads along with the bolt too
often to consider impact tools safe to use. I prefer a "torque
amplifier", also known as a steel pipe slid over the wrench handle,
with copious amounts of penetrating oil. If that doesn't work, I'll
try a propane torch.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/3/2022 3:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 10:39:43 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/3/2022 10:21 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 5:09:51 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 11/2/2022 4:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
>>>>>> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
>>>>>> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
>>>>>> impact driver will be destructive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
>>>>>> or both or neither?
>>>>>
>>>>> With the penetrating oil and clamping the drive side notched socket on, it finally came loose but was very tight most of the way out. It appeared as if it have been installed with something that looked like transparent plastic neverseize. I sprayed some additional penetrating oil from the open side and I will use the hammer driver when the adapter comes tomorrow. I think that I can protect the end of the BB well enough not to destroy it with the sharp blow. I suppose it doesn't make any difference but I hate to destroy hard to find components. And I'm still waiting for the repaired rear derailleur from the Campy service center so there's no particular hurry.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have an idea that the finished bike will weight 19 lbs. or a quarter of a lb. more than my Emonda.
>>>>>
>>>> What's a hammer driver? I thought you meant an impact wrench:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Wrenches/2767-20
>>> They are used for breaking a tight connection. You put the tool set for the proper direction and hit the base of it with a hammer which will free a tight connection. This should loosen the threaded piece enough for it to be extracted.
>>>
>>> What I did on the opposite side was to clamp the tool into place with a carpenters clamp which held everything tightly together and then twist it with a large crescent wrench. This doesn't work for the splined side and I don't want to strip the splines.
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F5XOFFM/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=63e1e0040666a00239eee02892721f0a&content-id=amzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60%3Aamzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60&hsa_cr_id=5692794540001&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=74fc2d96-9d53-49e5-85e9-0bd838215dae&pd_rd_w=W7Ejn&pd_rd_wg=H0cW2&qid=1667488030&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_img&sr=1-1-9e67e56a-6f64-441f-a281-df67fc737124
>>>
>>> I am a bit worried that this could possibly strip that splined aluminum part. But what I will do then is knock the bearing case all of the way through and out the other side and then peel the carrier out of the bottom bracket case. I will have the threads chased and the mechanic prefers to install the new Ultra Torque cups himself.
>>>
>> Next time use the nice Tacx tool:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/BBTOOLS.JPG
>>
>> The one for ISIS spline has a green handle. NL quality,
>> great design.
>
> I guess I'm not clear what you mean. I have the FSA tool that engages the maximum number of splines. But it is a 1/2" square drive and my hammer driver is 3/8" so I'm waiting for the adapter to be delivered by Amazon. Harbor Freight and Tools should have something like that but they don't. The local auto shops charge two arms and two legs for the $10 adapter.
>

The clever Tacx design bolts to your spindle so it cannot
slip on the splines. Very handy tool, set of four (black,
blue, red, green) does most common formats

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/3/2022 5:10 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>
> When I have a stuck bolt problem, the very last thing I'll try is an
> impact wrench. I've removed aluminum threads along with the bolt too
> often to consider impact tools safe to use.

My BMW R75/5 was not running when I bought it. Its exhaust pipes are
held to threaded spigots on the cylinder heads by fancy finned threaded
nuts. When I got the bike, I bought the special wrench. The nuts
wouldn't budge. I soaked and heated and tapped and soaked again for day
after day. Finally I felt some motion. But the motion turned out to be
the threads shearing off the head.

When I went crying to the shop mechanic, he said "If those don't spin
right off, I just cut them. They're cheap to replace." Much cheaper than
the reweld and re-thread job I paid for on the cylinder heads.

> I prefer a "torque
> amplifier", also known as a steel pipe slid over the wrench handle,
> with copious amounts of penetrating oil. If that doesn't work, I'll
> try a propane torch.

For years my favorite "torque amplifier" was my "magic pipe," a piece of
stainless steel thick walled pipe. 24" long, 1 3/4" OD, 1 1/2" ID. That
slides over the handle of the breaker bar. When necessary, another steel
bar slides into its open end. It now has a slight bend in it, I think
from extending it with a ~6 foot spud bar for torquing VW rear axle nuts.

But that is quite heavy and too long to fit in my usual toolbox.
Eventually I switched to two pieces of square steel tubing, each about a
foot long. One is 1.25" SQ outside, 1.125" SQ inside. The other is 1" SQ
outside, so it slides within the first. They're not very heavy, take
little room in the toolbox, and can also be further extended with
another steel bar.

The SS pipe is now used only for the very heaviest jobs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 3:09:20 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/3/2022 3:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 10:39:43 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 11/3/2022 10:21 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 5:09:51 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 11/2/2022 4:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
> >>>>>> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
> >>>>>> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
> >>>>>> impact driver will be destructive.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
> >>>>>> or both or neither?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> With the penetrating oil and clamping the drive side notched socket on, it finally came loose but was very tight most of the way out. It appeared as if it have been installed with something that looked like transparent plastic neverseize. I sprayed some additional penetrating oil from the open side and I will use the hammer driver when the adapter comes tomorrow. I think that I can protect the end of the BB well enough not to destroy it with the sharp blow. I suppose it doesn't make any difference but I hate to destroy hard to find components. And I'm still waiting for the repaired rear derailleur from the Campy service center so there's no particular hurry.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have an idea that the finished bike will weight 19 lbs. or a quarter of a lb. more than my Emonda.
> >>>>>
> >>>> What's a hammer driver? I thought you meant an impact wrench:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Fastening/Impact-Wrenches/2767-20
> >>> They are used for breaking a tight connection. You put the tool set for the proper direction and hit the base of it with a hammer which will free a tight connection. This should loosen the threaded piece enough for it to be extracted.
> >>>
> >>> What I did on the opposite side was to clamp the tool into place with a carpenters clamp which held everything tightly together and then twist it with a large crescent wrench. This doesn't work for the splined side and I don't want to strip the splines.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F5XOFFM/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&aaxitk=63e1e0040666a00239eee02892721f0a&content-id=amzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60%3Aamzn1.sym.cf8fc959-74aa-4850-a250-1b1a4e868e60&hsa_cr_id=5692794540001&pd_rd_plhdr=t&pd_rd_r=74fc2d96-9d53-49e5-85e9-0bd838215dae&pd_rd_w=W7Ejn&pd_rd_wg=H0cW2&qid=1667488030&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_img&sr=1-1-9e67e56a-6f64-441f-a281-df67fc737124
> >>>
> >>> I am a bit worried that this could possibly strip that splined aluminum part. But what I will do then is knock the bearing case all of the way through and out the other side and then peel the carrier out of the bottom bracket case. I will have the threads chased and the mechanic prefers to install the new Ultra Torque cups himself.
> >>>
> >> Next time use the nice Tacx tool:
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/BBTOOLS.JPG
> >>
> >> The one for ISIS spline has a green handle. NL quality,
> >> great design.
> >
> > I guess I'm not clear what you mean. I have the FSA tool that engages the maximum number of splines. But it is a 1/2" square drive and my hammer driver is 3/8" so I'm waiting for the adapter to be delivered by Amazon. Harbor Freight and Tools should have something like that but they don't. The local auto shops charge two arms and two legs for the $10 adapter.
> >
> The clever Tacx design bolts to your spindle so it cannot
> slip on the splines. Very handy tool, set of four (black,
> blue, red, green) does most common formats
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Thanks, I bought one. I'm still waiting for the Campy service center to return my Super Record rear derailleur anyway.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
> >
> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
>
> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
>
> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
>
> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
> impact driver will be destructive.
>
> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
> or both or neither?
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

OK, concerning the bottom bracket. The drive side was soaked well with penetrating oil and then I locked the adapter tool on with carpenter's clamp and carefully worked it off with a long crescent wrench. It was tight but this method worked well.

I soaked the off-side well with penetrating oil and let it soak for a couple of days but the FSA tool still would slip. Finally the hammer driver adapter arrived and I gave it a couple of blows. But it did not appear to have any effect. So rather than wait for the Tacx tool to arrive (it still isn't here) I took it up to my expert bike shop. An hour later he gave me a call saying that he had removed the Octalink unit and cleaned the threads.

I think that I had loosened it but that the FSA tool simply wasn't good enough to remove the unit. So a good Shimano tool worked without effort.

In any case, the Ultra Torque cups screwed right in and the Ultra Torque Super Record cranks went right in without a problem. This is always a worry when hitting a light steel frame with a ball peen hammer. The cranks spins easily, better than the Record and Chorus cranks.

On 11/16/2022 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
>>>
>> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
>>
>> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
>> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
>>
>> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
>> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
>>
>> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
>> impact driver will be destructive.
>>
>> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
>> or both or neither?
>>

> OK, concerning the bottom bracket. The drive side was soaked well with penetrating oil and then I locked the adapter tool on with carpenter's clamp and carefully worked it off with a long crescent wrench. It was tight but this method worked well.
>
> I soaked the off-side well with penetrating oil and let it soak for a couple of days but the FSA tool still would slip. Finally the hammer driver adapter arrived and I gave it a couple of blows. But it did not appear to have any effect. So rather than wait for the Tacx tool to arrive (it still isn't here) I took it up to my expert bike shop. An hour later he gave me a call saying that he had removed the Octalink unit and cleaned the threads.
>
> I think that I had loosened it but that the FSA tool simply wasn't good enough to remove the unit. So a good Shimano tool worked without effort.
>
> In any case, the Ultra Torque cups screwed right in and the Ultra Torque Super Record cranks went right in without a problem. This is always a worry when hitting a light steel frame with a ball peen hammer. The cranks spins easily, better than the Record and Chorus cranks.

Sounds like a victory.
What part of the frame did you pein?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:08:03 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/16/2022 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 11/2/2022 2:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> Andrew, I have a stuck Octalink BB in my new Tomassini frame. I do have a hammer driver. Penetrating oil did nothing. What to you think about using the hammer driver?
> >>>
> >> Ensure you are turning it the right direction.
> >>
> >> Heat may help, 200F or so with a heat gun or hair dryer (not
> >> a flame). Paint will be lost in the middle to high 300F range.
> >>
> >> If you can mount your remover securely to the cup and turn
> >> the tool with a 32mm socket in an impact driver, yes.
> >>
> >> Trying to hold a spline tool to the cup freehand with an
> >> impact driver will be destructive.
> >>
> >> p.s. Did you install it? Did you use grease or Never Seize
> >> or both or neither?
> >>
> > OK, concerning the bottom bracket. The drive side was soaked well with penetrating oil and then I locked the adapter tool on with carpenter's clamp and carefully worked it off with a long crescent wrench. It was tight but this method worked well.
> >
> > I soaked the off-side well with penetrating oil and let it soak for a couple of days but the FSA tool still would slip. Finally the hammer driver adapter arrived and I gave it a couple of blows. But it did not appear to have any effect. So rather than wait for the Tacx tool to arrive (it still isn't here) I took it up to my expert bike shop. An hour later he gave me a call saying that he had removed the Octalink unit and cleaned the threads.
> >
> > I think that I had loosened it but that the FSA tool simply wasn't good enough to remove the unit. So a good Shimano tool worked without effort.
> >
> > In any case, the Ultra Torque cups screwed right in and the Ultra Torque Super Record cranks went right in without a problem. This is always a worry when hitting a light steel frame with a ball peen hammer. The cranks spins easily, better than the Record and Chorus cranks.
> Sounds like a victory.
> What part of the frame did you pein?
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

The hammer driver in the FSA tool in the off side Octalink BB