GRAND RAPIDS, MI - The fatal shooting of a teenager Tuesday riding his
bike along a wooded road near the Grand River stunned the community.

The young man, identified as 18-year-old Kane Coronado, was on his
bicycle when he was shot, according to the Grand Rapids Police
Department. Officers responded about 2:50 p.m. to the 2200 block of
Indian Mounds Drive, across the Grand River from Millennium Park, and
found the teen wounded.

Rescuers attempted life-saving measures, but were not successful. No
suspects are in custody. MLive/The Grand Rapids Press reached out to
friends of Coronado to learn more about him. A vigil is planned for 7
p.m. Friday, Nov. 4 at the Grand River pedestrian bridge and there
will be a candle light memorial ride.

Friends of 18-year-old Kane Coronado say they cannot comprehend who
would shoot him.

A member of a West Michigan bicycle group, Coronado was riding his
bike along a wooded road near the Grand River when he was shot and
killed.

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2022/11/bicyclist-shot-near-park-restaurant-week-gr-kicks-off-grand-rapids-headlines-oct-30-nov-4.html

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 11:50:39 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> GRAND RAPIDS, MI - The fatal shooting of a teenager Tuesday riding his
> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River stunned the community.
>
> The young man, identified as 18-year-old Kane Coronado, was on his
> bicycle when he was shot, according to the Grand Rapids Police
> Department. Officers responded about 2:50 p.m. to the 2200 block of
> Indian Mounds Drive, across the Grand River from Millennium Park, and
> found the teen wounded.
>
> Rescuers attempted life-saving measures, but were not successful. No
> suspects are in custody. MLive/The Grand Rapids Press reached out to
> friends of Coronado to learn more about him. A vigil is planned for 7
> p.m. Friday, Nov. 4 at the Grand River pedestrian bridge and there
> will be a candle light memorial ride.
>
> Friends of 18-year-old Kane Coronado say they cannot comprehend who
> would shoot him.
>
> A member of a West Michigan bicycle group, Coronado was riding his
> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River when he was shot and
> killed.
>
>
>
> https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2022/11/bicyclist-shot-near-park-restaurant-week-gr-kicks-off-grand-rapids-headlines-oct-30-nov-4.html

more fear mongering

On 11/7/2022 8:54 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 11:50:39 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> GRAND RAPIDS, MI - The fatal shooting of a teenager Tuesday riding his
>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River stunned the community.
>>
>> The young man, identified as 18-year-old Kane Coronado, was on his
>> bicycle when he was shot, according to the Grand Rapids Police
>> Department. Officers responded about 2:50 p.m. to the 2200 block of
>> Indian Mounds Drive, across the Grand River from Millennium Park, and
>> found the teen wounded.
>>
>> Rescuers attempted life-saving measures, but were not successful. No
>> suspects are in custody. MLive/The Grand Rapids Press reached out to
>> friends of Coronado to learn more about him. A vigil is planned for 7
>> p.m. Friday, Nov. 4 at the Grand River pedestrian bridge and there
>> will be a candle light memorial ride.
>>
>> Friends of 18-year-old Kane Coronado say they cannot comprehend who
>> would shoot him.
>>
>> A member of a West Michigan bicycle group, Coronado was riding his
>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River when he was shot and
>> killed.
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2022/11/bicyclist-shot-near-park-restaurant-week-gr-kicks-off-grand-rapids-headlines-oct-30-nov-4.html
>
> more fear mongering

And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun crimes -
events that are extremely rare in countries with rational gun laws.

Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even more guns
and even fewer gun laws.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 10:54:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/7/2022 8:54 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 11:50:39 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> GRAND RAPIDS, MI - The fatal shooting of a teenager Tuesday riding his
>>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River stunned the community.
>>>
>>> The young man, identified as 18-year-old Kane Coronado, was on his
>>> bicycle when he was shot, according to the Grand Rapids Police
>>> Department. Officers responded about 2:50 p.m. to the 2200 block of
>>> Indian Mounds Drive, across the Grand River from Millennium Park, and
>>> found the teen wounded.
>>>
>>> Rescuers attempted life-saving measures, but were not successful. No
>>> suspects are in custody. MLive/The Grand Rapids Press reached out to
>>> friends of Coronado to learn more about him. A vigil is planned for 7
>>> p.m. Friday, Nov. 4 at the Grand River pedestrian bridge and there
>>> will be a candle light memorial ride.
>>>
>>> Friends of 18-year-old Kane Coronado say they cannot comprehend who
>>> would shoot him.
>>>
>>> A member of a West Michigan bicycle group, Coronado was riding his
>>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River when he was shot and
>>> killed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2022/11/bicyclist-shot-near-park-restaurant-week-gr-kicks-off-grand-rapids-headlines-oct-30-nov-4.html
>>
>> more fear mongering
>
>And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun crimes -
>events that are extremely rare in countries with rational gun laws.

Those of you afraid_of_guns scardy-pussies who are welcome to go to
those countries. Of course you'll have to deal with other government
restrictions on rights that you'd have here.

OTOH, you might try to get over your irrational fear of guns.

>Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even more guns
>and even fewer gun laws.

On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/7/2022 8:54 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 11:50:39 AM UTC-5, Catrike
>> Rider wrote:
>>> GRAND RAPIDS, MI - The fatal shooting of a teenager
>>> Tuesday riding his
>>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River stunned the
>>> community.
>>>
>>> The young man, identified as 18-year-old Kane Coronado,
>>> was on his
>>> bicycle when he was shot, according to the Grand Rapids
>>> Police
>>> Department. Officers responded about 2:50 p.m. to the
>>> 2200 block of
>>> Indian Mounds Drive, across the Grand River from
>>> Millennium Park, and
>>> found the teen wounded.
>>>
>>> Rescuers attempted life-saving measures, but were not
>>> successful. No
>>> suspects are in custody. MLive/The Grand Rapids Press
>>> reached out to
>>> friends of Coronado to learn more about him. A vigil is
>>> planned for 7
>>> p.m. Friday, Nov. 4 at the Grand River pedestrian bridge
>>> and there
>>> will be a candle light memorial ride.
>>>
>>> Friends of 18-year-old Kane Coronado say they cannot
>>> comprehend who
>>> would shoot him.
>>>
>>> A member of a West Michigan bicycle group, Coronado was
>>> riding his
>>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River when he was
>>> shot and
>>> killed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2022/11/bicyclist-shot-near-park-restaurant-week-gr-kicks-off-grand-rapids-headlines-oct-30-nov-4.html
>>>
>>
>> more fear mongering
>
> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
> rational gun laws.
>
> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>

It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal
elements cause problems and normal law-abiding citizens do
not. It's a problem of behavior not hardware.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 12:34:10 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 11/7/2022 8:54 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 11:50:39 AM UTC-5, Catrike
> >> Rider wrote:
> >>> GRAND RAPIDS, MI - The fatal shooting of a teenager
> >>> Tuesday riding his
> >>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River stunned the
> >>> community.
> >>>
> >>> The young man, identified as 18-year-old Kane Coronado,
> >>> was on his
> >>> bicycle when he was shot, according to the Grand Rapids
> >>> Police
> >>> Department. Officers responded about 2:50 p.m. to the
> >>> 2200 block of
> >>> Indian Mounds Drive, across the Grand River from
> >>> Millennium Park, and
> >>> found the teen wounded.
> >>>
> >>> Rescuers attempted life-saving measures, but were not
> >>> successful. No
> >>> suspects are in custody. MLive/The Grand Rapids Press
> >>> reached out to
> >>> friends of Coronado to learn more about him. A vigil is
> >>> planned for 7
> >>> p.m. Friday, Nov. 4 at the Grand River pedestrian bridge
> >>> and there
> >>> will be a candle light memorial ride.
> >>>
> >>> Friends of 18-year-old Kane Coronado say they cannot
> >>> comprehend who
> >>> would shoot him.
> >>>
> >>> A member of a West Michigan bicycle group, Coronado was
> >>> riding his
> >>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River when he was
> >>> shot and
> >>> killed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2022/11/bicyclist-shot-near-park-restaurant-week-gr-kicks-off-grand-rapids-headlines-oct-30-nov-4.html
> >>>
> >>
> >> more fear mongering
> >
> > And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
> > crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
> > rational gun laws.
> >
> > Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
> > more guns and even fewer gun laws.
> >
> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal
> elements cause problems and normal law-abiding citizens do
> not. It's a problem of behavior not hardware.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
+1

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 14:34:09 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/7/2022 8:54 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 11:50:39 AM UTC-5, Catrike
>>> Rider wrote:
>>>> GRAND RAPIDS, MI - The fatal shooting of a teenager
>>>> Tuesday riding his
>>>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River stunned the
>>>> community.
>>>>
>>>> The young man, identified as 18-year-old Kane Coronado,
>>>> was on his
>>>> bicycle when he was shot, according to the Grand Rapids
>>>> Police
>>>> Department. Officers responded about 2:50 p.m. to the
>>>> 2200 block of
>>>> Indian Mounds Drive, across the Grand River from
>>>> Millennium Park, and
>>>> found the teen wounded.
>>>>
>>>> Rescuers attempted life-saving measures, but were not
>>>> successful. No
>>>> suspects are in custody. MLive/The Grand Rapids Press
>>>> reached out to
>>>> friends of Coronado to learn more about him. A vigil is
>>>> planned for 7
>>>> p.m. Friday, Nov. 4 at the Grand River pedestrian bridge
>>>> and there
>>>> will be a candle light memorial ride.
>>>>
>>>> Friends of 18-year-old Kane Coronado say they cannot
>>>> comprehend who
>>>> would shoot him.
>>>>
>>>> A member of a West Michigan bicycle group, Coronado was
>>>> riding his
>>>> bike along a wooded road near the Grand River when he was
>>>> shot and
>>>> killed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2022/11/bicyclist-shot-near-park-restaurant-week-gr-kicks-off-grand-rapids-headlines-oct-30-nov-4.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> more fear mongering
>>
>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>> rational gun laws.
>>
>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>
>
>It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal
>elements cause problems and normal law-abiding citizens do
>not. It's a problem of behavior not hardware.

There's no reason for Frank to be so afraid of guns.

I've had at least one gun in every home I've lived in for my entire
78+ years. I've never had one hurt me or anyone else.

Guns themselves aren't dangerous just like cars and trucks aren't
dangerous. It's the corrupt and stupid people that are dangerous.

On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>> rational gun laws.
>>
>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>
>
> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal elements cause
> problems and normal law-abiding citizens do not. It's a problem of
> behavior not hardware.

Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with gun
"hardware" is the prime difference between this country and Canada (for
just one example). Canadians are not angels, but their gun crime rate is
a fraction of ours.

Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern, prosperous
countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. etc. also have more
rational gun laws, far fewer guns per capita, and far, far fewer gun
crimes than the U.S.

If you have some other unique American difference, besides prevalence of
guns, that you think explains our comparatively terrible gun crime rate,
please let us know.

But read up on Occam's Razor first.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 18:55:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>> rational gun laws.
>>>
>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>
>>
>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal elements cause
>> problems and normal law-abiding citizens do not. It's a problem of
>> behavior not hardware.
>
>Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with gun
>"hardware" is the prime difference between this country and Canada (for
>just one example). Canadians are not angels, but their gun crime rate is
>a fraction of ours.
>
>Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern, prosperous
>countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. etc. also have more
>rational gun laws, far fewer guns per capita, and far, far fewer gun
>crimes than the U.S.
>
>If you have some other unique American difference, besides prevalence of
>guns, that you think explains our comparatively terrible gun crime rate,
>please let us know.
>
>But read up on Occam's Razor first.

Simple... The USA has more crime = more criminals

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 18:55:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>> rational gun laws.
>>>
>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>
>>
>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal elements cause
>> problems and normal law-abiding citizens do not. It's a problem of
>> behavior not hardware.
>
>Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with gun
>"hardware" is the prime difference between this country and Canada (for
>just one example). Canadians are not angels, but their gun crime rate is
>a fraction of ours.
>
>Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern, prosperous
>countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. etc. also have more
>rational gun laws, far fewer guns per capita, and far, far fewer gun
>crimes than the U.S.
>
>If you have some other unique American difference, besides prevalence of
>guns, that you think explains our comparatively terrible gun crime rate,
>please let us know.
>
>But read up on Occam's Razor first.

I've made a promise to myself not to respond to your foolishness but
one last try.

Citizens in the U.S. have the constitutional right to posses a gun.
Canadians do not. Citizens of G.B. do not. In fact, it appears that
only three countries in the world do citizens have a "right" to own a
firearm.
https://www.businessinsider.com/2nd-amendment-countries-constitutional-right-bear-arms-2017-10

So stop your silly comparisons.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/7/2022 5:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>> rational gun laws.
>>>
>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>
>>
>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal
>> elements cause problems and normal law-abiding citizens do
>> not. It's a problem of behavior not hardware.
>
> Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with
> gun "hardware" is the prime difference between this country
> and Canada (for just one example). Canadians are not angels,
> but their gun crime rate is a fraction of ours.
>
> Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern,
> prosperous countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc.
> etc. also have more rational gun laws, far fewer guns per
> capita, and far, far fewer gun crimes than the U.S.
>
> If you have some other unique American difference, besides
> prevalence of guns, that you think explains our
> comparatively terrible gun crime rate, please let us know.
>
> But read up on Occam's Razor first.
>

I searched for strongarm (no weapon) robbery rates in USA vs
Canada.

1. The Canadians say, "According to the statistics of the
United Nations, North America has a rate of violent crime 5
to 10 times higher than that of European countries."

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/armed-robbery-america

2. That said, USA suffers more crime of all sorts than
Canada (whose crime rates are higher than in Europe)

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime

With firearm ownership rates 3x higher than Canada, US has
roughly 3x the violent crime generally but 16x rapes per
100K. (note in table above 'number' and 'rate per 100K
people' are not clearly distinguished in some instances)

3. Some other comparisons with a table showing selected
European countries (negligible firearm ownership) at the
bottom of page:

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States

So I would say that radically higher rates of lawful firearm
ownership don't seem to reflect a linear difference in crime
but that a generally more violent society does.

Peruse some cross national data and draw your own
conclusions but I am not convinced that 'hardware' is a
bigger factor than 'criminals'.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/7/2022 7:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 18:55:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>>> rational gun laws.
>>>>
>>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal elements cause
>>> problems and normal law-abiding citizens do not. It's a problem of
>>> behavior not hardware.
>>
>> Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with gun
>> "hardware" is the prime difference between this country and Canada (for
>> just one example). Canadians are not angels, but their gun crime rate is
>> a fraction of ours.
>>
>> Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern, prosperous
>> countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. etc. also have more
>> rational gun laws, far fewer guns per capita, and far, far fewer gun
>> crimes than the U.S.
>>
>> If you have some other unique American difference, besides prevalence of
>> guns, that you think explains our comparatively terrible gun crime rate,
>> please let us know.
>>
>> But read up on Occam's Razor first.
>
> I've made a promise to myself not to respond to your foolishness but
> one last try.
>
> Citizens in the U.S. have the constitutional right to posses a gun.
> Canadians do not. Citizens of G.B. do not. In fact, it appears that
> only three countries in the world do citizens have a "right" to own a
> firearm.
> https://www.businessinsider.com/2nd-amendment-countries-constitutional-right-bear-arms-2017-10
>
> So stop your silly comparisons.

John, you're losing track of the conversation. The question is not "Why
does the U.S. have more guns per capita?" The question is "Why does the
U.S. have so much more gun crime?"

It seems obvious to me that more guns per capita are the major driving
factor in more gun crime. Andrew seems to be saying that having guns so
easily available just doesn't matter - that Americans are somehow just
bad people.

(I'll let someone else explain the concept of "per capita" to Mr.
Tricycle Rider.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 19:21:41 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 11/7/2022 5:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>>> rational gun laws.
>>>>
>>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal
>>> elements cause problems and normal law-abiding citizens do
>>> not. It's a problem of behavior not hardware.
>>
>> Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with
>> gun "hardware" is the prime difference between this country
>> and Canada (for just one example). Canadians are not angels,
>> but their gun crime rate is a fraction of ours.
>>
>> Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern,
>> prosperous countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc.
>> etc. also have more rational gun laws, far fewer guns per
>> capita, and far, far fewer gun crimes than the U.S.
>>
>> If you have some other unique American difference, besides
>> prevalence of guns, that you think explains our
>> comparatively terrible gun crime rate, please let us know.
>>
>> But read up on Occam's Razor first.
>>
>
>I searched for strongarm (no weapon) robbery rates in USA vs
>Canada.
>
>1. The Canadians say, "According to the statistics of the
>United Nations, North America has a rate of violent crime 5
>to 10 times higher than that of European countries."
>
>https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/armed-robbery-america
>
>
>2. That said, USA suffers more crime of all sorts than
>Canada (whose crime rates are higher than in Europe)
>
>https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime
>
>With firearm ownership rates 3x higher than Canada, US has
>roughly 3x the violent crime generally but 16x rapes per
>100K. (note in table above 'number' and 'rate per 100K
>people' are not clearly distinguished in some instances)
>
>
>3. Some other comparisons with a table showing selected
>European countries (negligible firearm ownership) at the
>bottom of page:
>
>https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States
>
>So I would say that radically higher rates of lawful firearm
>ownership don't seem to reflect a linear difference in crime
>but that a generally more violent society does.
>
>Peruse some cross national data and draw your own
>conclusions but I am not convinced that 'hardware' is a
>bigger factor than 'criminals'.

Data as opposed to fantasy

The countries with the ten highest crime rates, expressed in per
100,000 people, globally are:

Venezuela (83.76)
Papua New Guinea (80.79)
South Africa (76.86)
Afghanistan (76.31)
Honduras (74.54)
Trinidad and Tobago (71.63)
Guyana (68.74)
El Salvador (67.79)
Brazil (67.49)
Jamaica (67.42)
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country

The countries with the ten highest gun ownership rates, expressed in
per 100,000 people, globally are:

1 United States 120.5
2 Falkland Islands 62.1
3 Yemen 52.8
4 New Caledonia 42.5
5 Serbia 39.1
6 Montenegro 39.1
7 Canada 34.7
8 Uruguay 34.7
9 Cyprus 34.0
10 Finland 32.4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2022 11:37:14 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 19:21:41 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 11/7/2022 5:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>>>> rational gun laws.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal
>>>> elements cause problems and normal law-abiding citizens do
>>>> not. It's a problem of behavior not hardware.
>>>
>>> Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with
>>> gun "hardware" is the prime difference between this country
>>> and Canada (for just one example). Canadians are not angels,
>>> but their gun crime rate is a fraction of ours.
>>>
>>> Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern,
>>> prosperous countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc.
>>> etc. also have more rational gun laws, far fewer guns per
>>> capita, and far, far fewer gun crimes than the U.S.
>>>
>>> If you have some other unique American difference, besides
>>> prevalence of guns, that you think explains our
>>> comparatively terrible gun crime rate, please let us know.
>>>
>>> But read up on Occam's Razor first.
>>>
>>
>>I searched for strongarm (no weapon) robbery rates in USA vs
>>Canada.
>>
>>1. The Canadians say, "According to the statistics of the
>>United Nations, North America has a rate of violent crime 5
>>to 10 times higher than that of European countries."
>>
>>https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/armed-robbery-america
>>
>>
>>2. That said, USA suffers more crime of all sorts than
>>Canada (whose crime rates are higher than in Europe)
>>
>>https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime
>>
>>With firearm ownership rates 3x higher than Canada, US has
>>roughly 3x the violent crime generally but 16x rapes per
>>100K. (note in table above 'number' and 'rate per 100K
>>people' are not clearly distinguished in some instances)
>>
>>
>>3. Some other comparisons with a table showing selected
>>European countries (negligible firearm ownership) at the
>>bottom of page:
>>
>>https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States
>>
>>So I would say that radically higher rates of lawful firearm
>>ownership don't seem to reflect a linear difference in crime
>>but that a generally more violent society does.
>>
>>Peruse some cross national data and draw your own
>>conclusions but I am not convinced that 'hardware' is a
>>bigger factor than 'criminals'.
>
>Data as opposed to fantasy
>
>The countries with the ten highest crime rates, expressed in per
>100,000 people, globally are:
>
> Venezuela (83.76)
> Papua New Guinea (80.79)
> South Africa (76.86)
> Afghanistan (76.31)
> Honduras (74.54)
> Trinidad and Tobago (71.63)
> Guyana (68.74)
> El Salvador (67.79)
> Brazil (67.49)
> Jamaica (67.42)
>https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
>
>The countries with the ten highest gun ownership rates, expressed in
>per 100,000 people, globally are:
>
>1 United States 120.5
>2 Falkland Islands 62.1
>3 Yemen 52.8
>4 New Caledonia 42.5
>5 Serbia 39.1
>6 Montenegro 39.1
>7 Canada 34.7
>8 Uruguay 34.7
>9 Cyprus 34.0
>10 Finland 32.4
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

Correction - expressed in per 100 people, globally are:
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 22:30:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/7/2022 7:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 18:55:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>>>> rational gun laws.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal elements cause
>>>> problems and normal law-abiding citizens do not. It's a problem of
>>>> behavior not hardware.
>>>
>>> Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with gun
>>> "hardware" is the prime difference between this country and Canada (for
>>> just one example). Canadians are not angels, but their gun crime rate is
>>> a fraction of ours.
>>>
>>> Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern, prosperous
>>> countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. etc. also have more
>>> rational gun laws, far fewer guns per capita, and far, far fewer gun
>>> crimes than the U.S.
>>>
>>> If you have some other unique American difference, besides prevalence of
>>> guns, that you think explains our comparatively terrible gun crime rate,
>>> please let us know.
>>>
>>> But read up on Occam's Razor first.
>>
>> I've made a promise to myself not to respond to your foolishness but
>> one last try.
>>
>> Citizens in the U.S. have the constitutional right to posses a gun.
>> Canadians do not. Citizens of G.B. do not. In fact, it appears that
>> only three countries in the world do citizens have a "right" to own a
>> firearm.
>> https://www.businessinsider.com/2nd-amendment-countries-constitutional-right-bear-arms-2017-10
>>
>> So stop your silly comparisons.
>
>John, you're losing track of the conversation. The question is not "Why
>does the U.S. have more guns per capita?" The question is "Why does the
>U.S. have so much more gun crime?"
>
>It seems obvious to me that more guns per capita are the major driving
>factor in more gun crime.

<SNORT> Krygowski falls prey to the fallacy of "correlation =
causation."

What's "obvious" is Frank "Rapid firing" Krygowski is just afraid of
guns.

>Andrew seems to be saying that having guns so
>easily available just doesn't matter - that Americans are somehow just
>bad people.

It's not that US citizens are bad people, it's just that there are
just a higher percentage of people among us who are inclined to commit
crime.

Various racial culture, the drug culture, the government's policy of
encouraging single parent families all create crime problems.
>(I'll let someone else explain the concept of "per capita" to Mr.
>Tricycle Rider.)

Speaking of per capita, it's interesting to note the USA's 'crime
rate' by race.

Here's the number of crimes by race
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43

Compare that to population by race in 2019.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183489/population-of-the-us-by-ethnicity-since-2000/

Total crime 2019, in millions;

white = 4.729 crimes / 250.5 population = .0.019

black = 1.815 crimes / 44.08 population = 0.041

Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, in thousands:

white = 3,650 crimes / 250,520 population = .0.015

black = 4,078 crimes / 44,080 population = 0.093

I'll let Krygowski draw his own conclusions.

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 7:54:17 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 18:55:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
> >>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
> >>> rational gun laws.
> >>>
> >>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
> >>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
> >>>
> >>
> >> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal elements cause
> >> problems and normal law-abiding citizens do not. It's a problem of
> >> behavior not hardware.
> >
> >Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with gun
> >"hardware" is the prime difference between this country and Canada (for
> >just one example). Canadians are not angels, but their gun crime rate is
> >a fraction of ours.
> >
> >Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern, prosperous
> >countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. etc. also have more
> >rational gun laws, far fewer guns per capita, and far, far fewer gun
> >crimes than the U.S.
> >
> >If you have some other unique American difference, besides prevalence of
> >guns, that you think explains our comparatively terrible gun crime rate,
> >please let us know.
> >
> >But read up on Occam's Razor first.
> I've made a promise to myself not to respond to your foolishness but
> one last try.
>
> Citizens in the U.S. have the constitutional right to posses a gun.
> Canadians do not. Citizens of G.B. do not. In fact, it appears that
> only three countries in the world do citizens have a "right" to own a
> firearm.
> https://www.businessinsider.com/2nd-amendment-countries-constitutional-right-bear-arms-2017-10
>
> So stop your silly comparisons.

I'd suggest you've made a silly comparison here - what relevance do you think a codified right to gun ownership has to do with it? If americans didn't have some sort of greater propensity to commit violent crimes with a firearm, one would think the rates among similar developed countries would be the same. They aren't. Are you suggesting that a constitutionally guaranteed right to own a firearm naturally leads to a higher rate of crimes using firearms? If so, you've just made Franks argument for him.

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 11:37:23 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 19:21:41 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> Data as opposed to fantasy
>
> The countries with the ten highest crime rates, expressed in per
> 100,000 people, globally are:
>
> Venezuela (83.76)
> Papua New Guinea (80.79)
> South Africa (76.86)
> Afghanistan (76.31)
> Honduras (74.54)
> Trinidad and Tobago (71.63)
> Guyana (68.74)
> El Salvador (67.79)
> Brazil (67.49)
> Jamaica (67.42)
> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
>
> The countries with the ten highest gun ownership rates, expressed in
> per 100,000 people, globally are:
>
> 1 United States 120.5
> 2 Falkland Islands 62.1
> 3 Yemen 52.8
> 4 New Caledonia 42.5
> 5 Serbia 39.1
> 6 Montenegro 39.1
> 7 Canada 34.7
> 8 Uruguay 34.7
> 9 Cyprus 34.0
> 10 Finland 32.4
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
>

It might help if you made an attempt to maintain the context of the discussion - you're conflating overall crime with firearm violence.

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 5:21:31 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 22:30:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>

> <SNORT> Krygowski falls prey to the fallacy of "correlation =
> causation."

Add 'correlation fallacy' to the long list of things kitty doesn't understand

>
> What's "obvious" is Frank "Rapid firing" Krygowski is just afraid of
> guns.

What's obvious is that scared little kitty can't understand the idea that some people don't need a gun to _not_ live in fear.

> >easily available just doesn't matter - that Americans are somehow just
> >bad people.
> It's not that US citizens are bad people, it's just that there are
> just a higher percentage of people among us who are inclined to commit
> crime.
>
> Various racial culture, the drug culture, the government's policy of
> encouraging single parent families all create crime problems.
> >(I'll let someone else explain the concept of "per capita" to Mr.
> >Tricycle Rider.)
> Speaking of per capita, it's interesting to note the USA's 'crime
> rate' by race.
>
> Here's the number of crimes by race
> https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43
>
> Compare that to population by race in 2019.
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/183489/population-of-the-us-by-ethnicity-since-2000/
>
> Total crime 2019, in millions;
>
> white = 4.729 crimes / 250.5 population = .0.019
>
> black = 1.815 crimes / 44.08 population = 0.041
>
>
> Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, in thousands:
>
> white = 3,650 crimes / 250,520 population = .0.015
>
> black = 4,078 crimes / 44,080 population = 0.093
>
> I'll let Krygowski draw his own conclusions.

The conclusion is obvious, not only are you an ignorant troll, you're a racist one at that and you're just as bad at reading statistics as kunich. BTW - who did those studies? Were they objective? seems to me some here think _every_ study is tainted because they're just getting paid to confirm a biased conclusion. Who was it that recently wrote:

" "Studies" are only valid when they support your agenda. "

"Nobody does a "study" becuase they want to find the
truth. They do it because somebody pays them to do it. "

"The honest fact is that those studies, if not all, then
most, are designed to convince people to act or think, a certain way. "

or, maybe I used my magic message editing powers again and added all those quotes to your messages?

On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 05:20:13 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 5:21:31 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 22:30:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>
>> <SNORT> Krygowski falls prey to the fallacy of "correlation =
>> causation."
>
>Add 'correlation fallacy' to the long list of things kitty doesn't understand
>
>>
>> What's "obvious" is Frank "Rapid firing" Krygowski is just afraid of
>> guns.
>
>What's obvious is that scared little kitty can't understand the idea that some people don't need a gun to _not_ live in fear.
>
>> >easily available just doesn't matter - that Americans are somehow just
>> >bad people.
>> It's not that US citizens are bad people, it's just that there are
>> just a higher percentage of people among us who are inclined to commit
>> crime.
>>
>> Various racial culture, the drug culture, the government's policy of
>> encouraging single parent families all create crime problems.
>> >(I'll let someone else explain the concept of "per capita" to Mr.
>> >Tricycle Rider.)
>> Speaking of per capita, it's interesting to note the USA's 'crime
>> rate' by race.
>>
>> Here's the number of crimes by race
>> https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43
>>
>> Compare that to population by race in 2019.
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/183489/population-of-the-us-by-ethnicity-since-2000/
>>
>> Total crime 2019, in millions;
>>
>> white = 4.729 crimes / 250.5 population = .0.019
>>
>> black = 1.815 crimes / 44.08 population = 0.041
>>
>>
>> Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, in thousands:
>>
>> white = 3,650 crimes / 250,520 population = .0.015
>>
>> black = 4,078 crimes / 44,080 population = 0.093
>>
>> I'll let Krygowski draw his own conclusions.
>
>The conclusion is obvious, not only are you an ignorant troll, you're a racist one at that

<SNORT> I'm racist for posting the FBI statistics?

>and you're just as bad at reading statistics as kunich.

<EYEROLL> which statistics do you believe I misread, Dummy?

>BTW - who did those studies?

I posted no "studies" there, Jimmy Boy, just simple grade school
mathematics. You can check 'em if you know how....

>Were they objective? seems to me some here think _every_ study is tainted because they're just getting paid to confirm a biased conclusion. Who was it that recently wrote:
>
>" "Studies" are only valid when they support your agenda. "
>
>"Nobody does a "study" becuase they want to find the
>truth. They do it because somebody pays them to do it. "
>
>"The honest fact is that those studies, if not all, then
>most, are designed to convince people to act or think, a certain way. "
>
>or, maybe I used my magic message editing powers again and added all those quotes to your messages?

On 11/7/2022 9:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/7/2022 7:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 18:55:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of
>>>>> gun
>>>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>>>> rational gun laws.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for
>>>>> even
>>>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal
>>>> elements cause
>>>> problems and normal law-abiding citizens do not. It's a
>>>> problem of
>>>> behavior not hardware.
>>>
>>> Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S.
>>> with gun
>>> "hardware" is the prime difference between this country
>>> and Canada (for
>>> just one example). Canadians are not angels, but their
>>> gun crime rate is
>>> a fraction of ours.
>>>
>>> Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern,
>>> prosperous
>>> countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. etc.
>>> also have more
>>> rational gun laws, far fewer guns per capita, and far,
>>> far fewer gun
>>> crimes than the U.S.
>>>
>>> If you have some other unique American difference,
>>> besides prevalence of
>>> guns, that you think explains our comparatively terrible
>>> gun crime rate,
>>> please let us know.
>>>
>>> But read up on Occam's Razor first.
>>
>> I've made a promise to myself not to respond to your
>> foolishness but
>> one last try.
>>
>> Citizens in the U.S. have the constitutional right to
>> posses a gun.
>> Canadians do not. Citizens of G.B. do not. In fact, it
>> appears that
>> only three countries in the world do citizens have a
>> "right" to own a
>> firearm.
>> https://www.businessinsider.com/2nd-amendment-countries-constitutional-right-bear-arms-2017-10
>>
>>
>> So stop your silly comparisons.
>
> John, you're losing track of the conversation. The question
> is not "Why does the U.S. have more guns per capita?" The
> question is "Why does the U.S. have so much more gun crime?"
>
> It seems obvious to me that more guns per capita are the
> major driving factor in more gun crime. Andrew seems to be
> saying that having guns so easily available just doesn't
> matter - that Americans are somehow just bad people.
>
> (I'll let someone else explain the concept of "per capita"
> to Mr. Tricycle Rider.)
>

To clarify, Americans are not bad people. We are a large and
staggeringly diverse nation with one of everything,
including some very violent people. We do have significant
policy failures of late (which I trust will resolve if and
when the population generally has had enough of dysfunction).

In re analysis, consider the exchange 22 years ago after
Andrew Cuomo as HUD Secretary proposed a ban on firearms in
public housing[1]:
https://archives.hud.gov/remarks/cuomo/speeches/gunsinph.cfm

An interviewer asked Mr Cuomo if public housing was unsafe
because residents were armed or if residents armed
themselves because the buildings were unsafe. Mr Cuomo
withdrew the proposal.

There are legitimate counterpoints to most issues. It's OK
to hold opinions, but it's better to consider counter
arguments and re evaluate the issue in its entirety.
Sometimes a guy could actually learn something.

Or not. YMMV.

[1]A potential 2d Amendment violation.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/7/2022 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 19:21:41 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 11/7/2022 5:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>>>> rational gun laws.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal
>>>> elements cause problems and normal law-abiding citizens do
>>>> not. It's a problem of behavior not hardware.
>>>
>>> Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with
>>> gun "hardware" is the prime difference between this country
>>> and Canada (for just one example). Canadians are not angels,
>>> but their gun crime rate is a fraction of ours.
>>>
>>> Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern,
>>> prosperous countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc.
>>> etc. also have more rational gun laws, far fewer guns per
>>> capita, and far, far fewer gun crimes than the U.S.
>>>
>>> If you have some other unique American difference, besides
>>> prevalence of guns, that you think explains our
>>> comparatively terrible gun crime rate, please let us know.
>>>
>>> But read up on Occam's Razor first.
>>>
>>
>> I searched for strongarm (no weapon) robbery rates in USA vs
>> Canada.
>>
>> 1. The Canadians say, "According to the statistics of the
>> United Nations, North America has a rate of violent crime 5
>> to 10 times higher than that of European countries."
>>
>> https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/armed-robbery-america
>>
>>
>> 2. That said, USA suffers more crime of all sorts than
>> Canada (whose crime rates are higher than in Europe)
>>
>> https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime
>>
>> With firearm ownership rates 3x higher than Canada, US has
>> roughly 3x the violent crime generally but 16x rapes per
>> 100K. (note in table above 'number' and 'rate per 100K
>> people' are not clearly distinguished in some instances)
>>
>>
>> 3. Some other comparisons with a table showing selected
>> European countries (negligible firearm ownership) at the
>> bottom of page:
>>
>> https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States
>>
>> So I would say that radically higher rates of lawful firearm
>> ownership don't seem to reflect a linear difference in crime
>> but that a generally more violent society does.
>>
>> Peruse some cross national data and draw your own
>> conclusions but I am not convinced that 'hardware' is a
>> bigger factor than 'criminals'.
>
> Data as opposed to fantasy
>
> The countries with the ten highest crime rates, expressed in per
> 100,000 people, globally are:
>
> Venezuela (83.76)
> Papua New Guinea (80.79)
> South Africa (76.86)
> Afghanistan (76.31)
> Honduras (74.54)
> Trinidad and Tobago (71.63)
> Guyana (68.74)
> El Salvador (67.79)
> Brazil (67.49)
> Jamaica (67.42)
> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
>
> The countries with the ten highest gun ownership rates, expressed in
> per 100,000 people, globally are:
>
> 1 United States 120.5
> 2 Falkland Islands 62.1
> 3 Yemen 52.8
> 4 New Caledonia 42.5
> 5 Serbia 39.1
> 6 Montenegro 39.1
> 7 Canada 34.7
> 8 Uruguay 34.7
> 9 Cyprus 34.0
> 10 Finland 32.4
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
>

Where is the correlation? Anywhere? Somebody? Hello...

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/8/2022 4:21 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 22:30:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/7/2022 7:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 18:55:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>>>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>>>>> rational gun laws.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>>>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal elements cause
>>>>> problems and normal law-abiding citizens do not. It's a problem of
>>>>> behavior not hardware.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with gun
>>>> "hardware" is the prime difference between this country and Canada (for
>>>> just one example). Canadians are not angels, but their gun crime rate is
>>>> a fraction of ours.
>>>>
>>>> Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern, prosperous
>>>> countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. etc. also have more
>>>> rational gun laws, far fewer guns per capita, and far, far fewer gun
>>>> crimes than the U.S.
>>>>
>>>> If you have some other unique American difference, besides prevalence of
>>>> guns, that you think explains our comparatively terrible gun crime rate,
>>>> please let us know.
>>>>
>>>> But read up on Occam's Razor first.
>>>
>>> I've made a promise to myself not to respond to your foolishness but
>>> one last try.
>>>
>>> Citizens in the U.S. have the constitutional right to posses a gun.
>>> Canadians do not. Citizens of G.B. do not. In fact, it appears that
>>> only three countries in the world do citizens have a "right" to own a
>>> firearm.
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/2nd-amendment-countries-constitutional-right-bear-arms-2017-10
>>>
>>> So stop your silly comparisons.
>>
>> John, you're losing track of the conversation. The question is not "Why
>> does the U.S. have more guns per capita?" The question is "Why does the
>> U.S. have so much more gun crime?"
>>
>> It seems obvious to me that more guns per capita are the major driving
>> factor in more gun crime.
>
> <SNORT> Krygowski falls prey to the fallacy of "correlation =
> causation."
>
> What's "obvious" is Frank "Rapid firing" Krygowski is just afraid of
> guns.
>
>> Andrew seems to be saying that having guns so
>> easily available just doesn't matter - that Americans are somehow just
>> bad people.
>
> It's not that US citizens are bad people, it's just that there are
> just a higher percentage of people among us who are inclined to commit
> crime.
>
> Various racial culture, the drug culture, the government's policy of
> encouraging single parent families all create crime problems.
>
>> (I'll let someone else explain the concept of "per capita" to Mr.
>> Tricycle Rider.)
>
> Speaking of per capita, it's interesting to note the USA's 'crime
> rate' by race.
>
> Here's the number of crimes by race
> https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43
>
> Compare that to population by race in 2019.
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/183489/population-of-the-us-by-ethnicity-since-2000/
>
> Total crime 2019, in millions;
>
> white = 4.729 crimes / 250.5 population = .0.019
>
> black = 1.815 crimes / 44.08 population = 0.041
>
>
> Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, in thousands:
>
> white = 3,650 crimes / 250,520 population = .0.015
>
> black = 4,078 crimes / 44,080 population = 0.093
>
> I'll let Krygowski draw his own conclusions.
>

There's a flip side to that.

Americans demographically categorized as 'black' suffer
disproportionately from crime, especially as murder victims.
Willful disregard for criminal prosecution harms them more
than it harms Americans generally.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/8/2022 6:59 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 11:37:23 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 19:21:41 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> Data as opposed to fantasy
>>
>> The countries with the ten highest crime rates, expressed in per
>> 100,000 people, globally are:
>>
>> Venezuela (83.76)
>> Papua New Guinea (80.79)
>> South Africa (76.86)
>> Afghanistan (76.31)
>> Honduras (74.54)
>> Trinidad and Tobago (71.63)
>> Guyana (68.74)
>> El Salvador (67.79)
>> Brazil (67.49)
>> Jamaica (67.42)
>> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
>>
>> The countries with the ten highest gun ownership rates, expressed in
>> per 100,000 people, globally are:
>>
>> 1 United States 120.5
>> 2 Falkland Islands 62.1
>> 3 Yemen 52.8
>> 4 New Caledonia 42.5
>> 5 Serbia 39.1
>> 6 Montenegro 39.1
>> 7 Canada 34.7
>> 8 Uruguay 34.7
>> 9 Cyprus 34.0
>> 10 Finland 32.4
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
>>
>
> It might help if you made an attempt to maintain the context of the discussion - you're conflating overall crime with firearm violence.
>

Venezuelans are mostly prohibited from firearms,
Some deny the relationship between disarmed populations and
tyranny but Venezuela is another instance. And hard.
https://fee.org/articles/gun-control-preceded-the-tyranny-in-venezuela/

Papua New Guinea has a very low firearms ownership rate:
https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/143/rate_of_registered_firearms_per_100_population

Afghanis like USAians have extremely high ownership rates.

To Mr Slocumb's point, any correlation isn't at all obvious
if it exists at all.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 8:35:10 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 05:20:13 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 5:21:31 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 22:30:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> <SNORT> Krygowski falls prey to the fallacy of "correlation =
> >> causation."
> >
> >Add 'correlation fallacy' to the long list of things kitty doesn't understand
> >
> >>
> >> What's "obvious" is Frank "Rapid firing" Krygowski is just afraid of
> >> guns.
> >
> >What's obvious is that scared little kitty can't understand the idea that some people don't need a gun to _not_ live in fear.
> >
> >> >easily available just doesn't matter - that Americans are somehow just
> >> >bad people.
> >> It's not that US citizens are bad people, it's just that there are
> >> just a higher percentage of people among us who are inclined to commit
> >> crime.
> >>
> >> Various racial culture, the drug culture, the government's policy of
> >> encouraging single parent families all create crime problems.
> >> >(I'll let someone else explain the concept of "per capita" to Mr.
> >> >Tricycle Rider.)
> >> Speaking of per capita, it's interesting to note the USA's 'crime
> >> rate' by race.
> >>
> >> Here's the number of crimes by race
> >> https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43
> >>
> >> Compare that to population by race in 2019.
> >> https://www.statista.com/statistics/183489/population-of-the-us-by-ethnicity-since-2000/
> >>
> >> Total crime 2019, in millions;
> >>
> >> white = 4.729 crimes / 250.5 population = .0.019
> >>
> >> black = 1.815 crimes / 44.08 population = 0.041
> >>
> >>
> >> Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, in thousands:
> >>
> >> white = 3,650 crimes / 250,520 population = .0.015
> >>
> >> black = 4,078 crimes / 44,080 population = 0.093
> >>
> >> I'll let Krygowski draw his own conclusions.
> >
> >The conclusion is obvious, not only are you an ignorant troll, you're a racist one at that
> <SNORT> I'm racist for posting the FBI statistics?

You're a racist for conflating statistics from unrelated studies into a racial correlation.

> >and you're just as bad at reading statistics as kunich.
> <EYEROLL> which statistics do you believe I misread, Dummy?

You conflated statistics from unrelated studies into a racial correlation. I should clarify, I don't know whether you intentionally misread it or it's a result of your well-known lack of reading comprehension, but you misread them nonetheless to conflate them into a correlation.

> >BTW - who did those studies?
> I posted no "studies" there, Jimmy Boy, just simple grade school
> mathematics. You can check 'em if you know how....

Ah, So you didn't post:
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43

or

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183489/population-of-the-us-by-ethnicity-since-2000/

I guess you're going to now accuse me of using my magic usenet message editing powers to insert those links?

> >Were they objective? seems to me some here think _every_ study is tainted because they're just getting paid to confirm a biased conclusion. Who was it that recently wrote:
> >
> >" "Studies" are only valid when they support your agenda. "
> >
> >"Nobody does a "study" becuase they want to find the
> >truth. They do it because somebody pays them to do it. "
> >
> >"The honest fact is that those studies, if not all, then
> >most, are designed to convince people to act or think, a certain way. "
> >
> >or, maybe I used my magic message editing powers again and added all those quotes to your messages?

On Tue, 08 Nov 2022 07:58:35 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 11/8/2022 4:21 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 22:30:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/7/2022 7:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 18:55:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/7/2022 3:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/7/2022 9:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And it's ludicrous that gun fetishists post accounts of gun
>>>>>>> crimes - events that are extremely rare in countries with
>>>>>>> rational gun laws.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then the fetishists use that fear mongering to call for even
>>>>>>> more guns and even fewer gun laws.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not ludicrous, the argument being that criminal elements cause
>>>>>> problems and normal law-abiding citizens do not. It's a problem of
>>>>>> behavior not hardware.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, that makes no sense. The saturation of the U.S. with gun
>>>>> "hardware" is the prime difference between this country and Canada (for
>>>>> just one example). Canadians are not angels, but their gun crime rate is
>>>>> a fraction of ours.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those same facts hold true for dozens of other modern, prosperous
>>>>> countries. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc. etc. also have more
>>>>> rational gun laws, far fewer guns per capita, and far, far fewer gun
>>>>> crimes than the U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have some other unique American difference, besides prevalence of
>>>>> guns, that you think explains our comparatively terrible gun crime rate,
>>>>> please let us know.
>>>>>
>>>>> But read up on Occam's Razor first.
>>>>
>>>> I've made a promise to myself not to respond to your foolishness but
>>>> one last try.
>>>>
>>>> Citizens in the U.S. have the constitutional right to posses a gun.
>>>> Canadians do not. Citizens of G.B. do not. In fact, it appears that
>>>> only three countries in the world do citizens have a "right" to own a
>>>> firearm.
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/2nd-amendment-countries-constitutional-right-bear-arms-2017-10
>>>>
>>>> So stop your silly comparisons.
>>>
>>> John, you're losing track of the conversation. The question is not "Why
>>> does the U.S. have more guns per capita?" The question is "Why does the
>>> U.S. have so much more gun crime?"
>>>
>>> It seems obvious to me that more guns per capita are the major driving
>>> factor in more gun crime.
>>
>> <SNORT> Krygowski falls prey to the fallacy of "correlation =
>> causation."
>>
>> What's "obvious" is Frank "Rapid firing" Krygowski is just afraid of
>> guns.
>>
>>> Andrew seems to be saying that having guns so
>>> easily available just doesn't matter - that Americans are somehow just
>>> bad people.
>>
>> It's not that US citizens are bad people, it's just that there are
>> just a higher percentage of people among us who are inclined to commit
>> crime.
>>
>> Various racial culture, the drug culture, the government's policy of
>> encouraging single parent families all create crime problems.
>>
>>> (I'll let someone else explain the concept of "per capita" to Mr.
>>> Tricycle Rider.)
>>
>> Speaking of per capita, it's interesting to note the USA's 'crime
>> rate' by race.
>>
>> Here's the number of crimes by race
>> https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43
>>
>> Compare that to population by race in 2019.
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/183489/population-of-the-us-by-ethnicity-since-2000/
>>
>> Total crime 2019, in millions;
>>
>> white = 4.729 crimes / 250.5 population = .0.019
>>
>> black = 1.815 crimes / 44.08 population = 0.041
>>
>>
>> Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, in thousands:
>>
>> white = 3,650 crimes / 250,520 population = .0.015
>>
>> black = 4,078 crimes / 44,080 population = 0.093
>>
>> I'll let Krygowski draw his own conclusions.
>>
>
>There's a flip side to that.
>
>Americans demographically categorized as 'black' suffer
>disproportionately from crime, especially as murder victims.
> Willful disregard for criminal prosecution harms them more
>than it harms Americans generally.
>
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/

+1