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tech / rec.crafts.metalworking / Re: Three Form Thread Mill ??? - Tangent

SubjectAuthor
* Three Form Thread Mill ???Bob La Londe
+* Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???Leon Fisk
|+* Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???Bob La Londe
||`- Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???Bob La Londe
|`* Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???James Waldby
| `* Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???Bob La Londe
|  `- Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???Bob La Londe
`- Re: Three Form Thread Mill ??? - TangentBob La Londe

1
Three Form Thread Mill ???

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Three Form Thread Mill ???
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2023 15:43:33 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Mon, 2 Jan 2023 22:43 UTC

Below are CNC applications:

I use machine taps in tension compression holders. Functionally like
rigid tapping, but with some fudge factor for machines that do not have
a C-axis. Typically I run this at 500RPM, and switch to low gear in
anything harder than aluminum. I have used these on blind holes, but
only if I can substantially over drill the depth. If you bottom or chip
pack the hole out it will break. Works best for through holes with
spiral point taps.

I use single form thread mills on the high spindle speed machines. I
cut from the bottom up tracing the full thread. Blind holes. Through
holes. Doesn't matter. If you start at the bottom all the chips are
below your cutter.

I use full form thread mills on the slower spindle speed machines. I
start at the bottom and turn 1.5 to 2 thread rotations and done.
Doesn't leave the chips behind as well as the single form does, but
since its only making 2 interpolations at any depth (upto its flute
length) chips are not a problem. I start at the bottom anyway. Works
fine in blind holes or through holes.

What exactly is the advantage of a three form thread mill?

For clarity the form is the number of teeth in a single flute. There
may be multiple flutes in single form, full form, and three form thread
mills.

Single form can be made in house on a tool D-bit grinder with just one
"flute" with one tooth. I buy multiple flute single form thread mills
from Carbide Tool Source (Rogue Systems Inc) and I usually buy full form
thread mills from Lake Shore Carbide. If I find a reason to try three
form thread mills I'll probably start with some "cheap" Chinese imports
off Ebay to see if the concept works for me or not.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???

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From: lfis...@gmail.invalid (Leon Fisk)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2023 17:34:40 -0400
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 by: Leon Fisk - Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:34 UTC

On Mon, 2 Jan 2023 15:43:33 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>
>What exactly is the advantage of a three form thread mill?

Seeing you didn't get much help with this... I asked "ChatGPT" a couple
questions while fooling around with it. Here is the response:

===
Me> Any insight on Three Form Thread Mill compared to single form?

A three form thread mill is a type of tool used in machining to create
internal threads, or threads on the inside of a hole. It is called a
"three form" thread mill because it has three different profiles on the
cutting end of the tool: one for the root of the thread, one for the
crest, and one for the root radius. This allows the tool to create a
complete thread in a single pass.

In comparison, a single form thread mill only has a single profile on
the cutting end, so it can only produce a partial thread in a single
pass. This means that it takes multiple passes to create a complete
thread, which can be slower and less efficient than using a three form
thread mill.

There are trade-offs to consider when deciding which type of thread
mill to use. Three form thread mills can be more expensive and may
require more precise setup and alignment, but they can be more
efficient and produce a higher quality thread. Single form thread mills
are generally simpler and less expensive, but they may require more
time and effort to create a complete thread.

Me> Any difference using climb cutting for a thread mill?

Climb cutting is a machining technique in which the direction of the
cut is opposite to the direction of the tool's rotation. This can have
a number of benefits, including a smoother finish on the workpiece,
reduced cutting forces, and longer tool life.

When using a thread mill to create internal threads, climb cutting can
be particularly useful because it allows the tool to enter and exit the
cut more smoothly. This can help to reduce the risk of tearing or
chipping on the entry and exit of the cut, which can be a problem when
using a traditional threading tool such as a tap.

However, it is important to note that climb cutting with a thread mill
can also be more challenging and may require more skill and experience
to execute properly. The cutting forces can be higher when climb
cutting, so it is important to use appropriate tool holding and
workholding methods to ensure that the tool does not deflect or
chatter. It may also be necessary to use a slower feed rate and/or a
lighter depth of cut to ensure that the tool does not become overloaded
or break.
===

I don't have a mill... hadn't heard of "Three Form" before so I was a
bit curious myself ;-)

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2023 16:02:10 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Fri, 6 Jan 2023 23:02 UTC

On 1/6/2023 2:34 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2023 15:43:33 -0700
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> What exactly is the advantage of a three form thread mill?
>
> Seeing you didn't get much help with this... I asked "ChatGPT" a couple
> questions while fooling around with it. Here is the response:
>
> ===
> Me> Any insight on Three Form Thread Mill compared to single form?
>
> A three form thread mill is a type of tool used in machining to create
> internal threads, or threads on the inside of a hole. It is called a
> "three form" thread mill because it has three different profiles on the
> cutting end of the tool: one for the root of the thread, one for the
> crest, and one for the root radius. This allows the tool to create a
> complete thread in a single pass.
>
> In comparison, a single form thread mill only has a single profile on
> the cutting end, so it can only produce a partial thread in a single
> pass. This means that it takes multiple passes to create a complete
> thread, which can be slower and less efficient than using a three form
> thread mill.
>
> There are trade-offs to consider when deciding which type of thread
> mill to use. Three form thread mills can be more expensive and may
> require more precise setup and alignment, but they can be more
> efficient and produce a higher quality thread. Single form thread mills
> are generally simpler and less expensive, but they may require more
> time and effort to create a complete thread.
>
> Me> Any difference using climb cutting for a thread mill?
>
> Climb cutting is a machining technique in which the direction of the
> cut is opposite to the direction of the tool's rotation. This can have
> a number of benefits, including a smoother finish on the workpiece,
> reduced cutting forces, and longer tool life.
>
> When using a thread mill to create internal threads, climb cutting can
> be particularly useful because it allows the tool to enter and exit the
> cut more smoothly. This can help to reduce the risk of tearing or
> chipping on the entry and exit of the cut, which can be a problem when
> using a traditional threading tool such as a tap.
>
> However, it is important to note that climb cutting with a thread mill
> can also be more challenging and may require more skill and experience
> to execute properly. The cutting forces can be higher when climb
> cutting, so it is important to use appropriate tool holding and
> workholding methods to ensure that the tool does not deflect or
> chatter. It may also be necessary to use a slower feed rate and/or a
> lighter depth of cut to ensure that the tool does not become overloaded
> or break.
> ===
>
> I don't have a mill... hadn't heard of "Three Form" before so I was a
> bit curious myself ;-)
>

That's funny. I just watched a video this morning about one of those
Chat-AI programs and the lemon law in Michigan. Of course by a Michigan
lemon law attorney. I have to say, I have as much issue with this
response as he did with the Michigan lemon law response. LOL.

Some of it may be choice of definitions, but either way some of it is
just not right. I make complete threads that the target machine screw
will thread into with a single form thread mill in just ONE (1) pass.

One can assume with some reasonable degree of certainty that if one is
thread milling (which is done by spiral interpolation) that the machine
has relatively low backlash or is very heavy and climb milling is not
even something one worries about. Therefore in respect to thread
milling the primary relationship to climb milling is that it allows you
to cut the threads from the bottom of the hole to the top avoiding any
chance of chip re-cutting when cutting standard right hand threads.
Even with blind holes.

As to the definition of the three form thread mills that sounds mostly
like guessing. The ones I have seen just appear to have three teeth the
same in each flute. This is why I can't see any benefit. At the start
all three teeth cut, but than after the first interpolation only the
lead tooth would be cutting. Even if a second or third pass or spring
pass was required in hard material I don't see how those other same
teeth would be any help. The first one does all the work.

Video single form thread milling I do everyday. 10-32 thread 0.495"
deep. That particular thread mill has done hundreds if not thousands of
holes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLjfZ7vf4FI&t=55s

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
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Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2023 16:03:32 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Fri, 6 Jan 2023 23:03 UTC

On 1/6/2023 4:02 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 1/6/2023 2:34 PM, Leon Fisk wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Jan 2023 15:43:33 -0700
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> What exactly is the advantage of a three form thread mill?
>>
>> Seeing you didn't get much help with this... I asked "ChatGPT" a couple
>> questions while fooling around with it. Here is the response:
>>
>> ===
>> Me> Any insight on Three Form Thread Mill compared to single form?
>>
>> A three form thread mill is a type of tool used in machining to create
>> internal threads, or threads on the inside of a hole. It is called a
>> "three form" thread mill because it has three different profiles on the
>> cutting end of the tool: one for the root of the thread, one for the
>> crest, and one for the root radius. This allows the tool to create a
>> complete thread in a single pass.
>>
>> In comparison, a single form thread mill only has a single profile on
>> the cutting end, so it can only produce a partial thread in a single
>> pass. This means that it takes multiple passes to create a complete
>> thread, which can be slower and less efficient than using a three form
>> thread mill.
>>
>> There are trade-offs to consider when deciding which type of thread
>> mill to use. Three form thread mills can be more expensive and may
>> require more precise setup and alignment, but they can be more
>> efficient and produce a higher quality thread. Single form thread mills
>> are generally simpler and less expensive, but they may require more
>> time and effort to create a complete thread.
>>
>> Me> Any difference using climb cutting for a thread mill?
>>
>> Climb cutting is a machining technique in which the direction of the
>> cut is opposite to the direction of the tool's rotation. This can have
>> a number of benefits, including a smoother finish on the workpiece,
>> reduced cutting forces, and longer tool life.
>>
>> When using a thread mill to create internal threads, climb cutting can
>> be particularly useful because it allows the tool to enter and exit the
>> cut more smoothly. This can help to reduce the risk of tearing or
>> chipping on the entry and exit of the cut, which can be a problem when
>> using a traditional threading tool such as a tap.
>>
>> However, it is important to note that climb cutting with a thread mill
>> can also be more challenging and may require more skill and experience
>> to execute properly. The cutting forces can be higher when climb
>> cutting, so it is important to use appropriate tool holding and
>> workholding methods to ensure that the tool does not deflect or
>> chatter. It may also be necessary to use a slower feed rate and/or a
>> lighter depth of cut to ensure that the tool does not become overloaded
>> or break.
>> ===
>>
>> I don't have a mill... hadn't heard of "Three Form" before so I was a
>> bit curious myself ;-)
>>
>
>
> That's funny.  I just watched a video this morning about one of those
> Chat-AI programs and the lemon law in Michigan.  Of course by a Michigan
> lemon law attorney.  I have to say, I have as much issue with this
> response as he did with the Michigan lemon law response.  LOL.
>
> Some of it may be choice of definitions, but either way some of it is
> just not right.  I make complete threads that the target machine screw
> will thread into with a single form thread mill in just ONE (1) pass.
>
> One can assume with some reasonable degree of certainty that if one is
> thread milling (which is done by spiral interpolation) that the machine
> has relatively low backlash or is very heavy and climb milling is not
> even something one worries about.  Therefore in respect to thread
> milling the primary relationship to climb milling is that it allows you
> to cut the threads from the bottom of the hole to the top avoiding any
> chance of chip re-cutting when cutting standard right hand threads. Even
> with blind holes.
>
> As to the definition of the three form thread mills that sounds mostly
> like guessing.  The ones I have seen just appear to have three teeth the
> same in each flute.  This is why I can't see any benefit.  At the start
> all three teeth cut, but than after the first interpolation only the
> lead tooth would be cutting.  Even if a second or third pass or spring
> pass was required in hard material I don't see how those other same
> teeth would be any help.  The first one does all the work.
>
> Video single form thread milling I do everyday. 10-32 thread 0.495"
> deep.  That particular thread mill has done hundreds if not thousands of
> holes.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLjfZ7vf4FI&t=55s
>

One of those three form thread mills
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234765701051
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
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Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???

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From: j-wal...@no.no (James Waldby)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2023 03:08:22 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: James Waldby - Sat, 7 Jan 2023 03:08 UTC

Leon Fisk ... wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2023 15:43:33 -0700
> Bob La Londe ... wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>What exactly is the advantage of a three form thread mill?
>
> Seeing you didn't get much help with this... I asked "ChatGPT" a couple
> questions while fooling around with it. Here is the response:
>
> ===
> Me> Any insight on Three Form Thread Mill compared to single form?

[Then chatGPT says:]
> A three form thread mill is [...] called a "three form" thread mill
> because it has three different profiles on the cutting end of the
> tool [...]

Bob's already skepticized about that claim, and in web searches I
didn't find any support for it. I've seen several three form thread
mills where all the teeth look like the same profile, but didn't
find a spec sheet or drawing that spelled it out..

Some reasons for using a multi-form (including three-form) thread mill
are "They can thread faster because they cut multiple grooves in one
pass" [ref 1]; they "excel in internal deep threads and hard-to-cut
materials" [ref 2]; they "are designed for threading in hardened
steels and difficult-to-machine materials" [ref 3].

Makes it look like production, tool life, and special cases are what
make multi-form thread mills desirable.

On the con side: Unlike a single-form thread mill they cut only one
pitch. Side loading and horsepower requirement are higher than for
single-form.

[1] <https://www.cnccookbook.com/threadmills-and-thread-milling-speeds-feeds/>
[2] <https://sct-usa.com/products/thread-mills/>
[3] <https://www.harveytool.com/products/thread-milling-cutters---tri-form---un-threads>

> Me> Any difference using climb cutting for a thread mill?

[Then chatGPT says:]
> Climb cutting is a machining technique in which the direction of the
> cut is opposite to the direction of the tool's rotation. [...]

Isn't that backwards? Or ambiguous. Eg, ref 1 says of climb milling,
"the tool is [fed] in the direction of tool rotation". Also see ref 4.

[4] <https://www.harveyperformance.com/in-the-loupe/conventional-vs-climb-milling/>

Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2023 09:40:15 -0700
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 by: Bob La Londe - Sat, 7 Jan 2023 16:40 UTC

On 1/6/2023 8:08 PM, James Waldby wrote:
> Leon Fisk ... wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Jan 2023 15:43:33 -0700
>> Bob La Londe ... wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> What exactly is the advantage of a three form thread mill?
>>
>> Seeing you didn't get much help with this... I asked "ChatGPT" a couple
>> questions while fooling around with it. Here is the response:
>>
>> ===
>> Me> Any insight on Three Form Thread Mill compared to single form?
>
> [Then chatGPT says:]
>> A three form thread mill is [...] called a "three form" thread mill
>> because it has three different profiles on the cutting end of the
>> tool [...]
>
> Bob's already skepticized about that claim, and in web searches I
> didn't find any support for it. I've seen several three form thread
> mills where all the teeth look like the same profile, but didn't
> find a spec sheet or drawing that spelled it out..
>
> Some reasons for using a multi-form (including three-form) thread mill
> are "They can thread faster because they cut multiple grooves in one
> pass" [ref 1]; they "excel in internal deep threads and hard-to-cut
> materials" [ref 2]; they "are designed for threading in hardened
> steels and difficult-to-machine materials" [ref 3].
>

A full form thread mill generally has a depth limit and can cut upto
that depth limit in one interpolation. (I program 1.5-2 to make sure I
get a complete cut at the step over leadins. I don't say pass because I
would consider making the same interpolation at multiple diameters
multiple passes. Possibly also a "spring" pass. A single form thread
mill also cuts the entire thread in a single pass. It just takes more
spiral interpolation increments to do it. While its made up of multiple
instructions it is one single continuous tool path.

I do not see how a three form could be any faster than a single form.
The first tooth does all the cutting. Unless its just a three thread
operation (in which case its functionally a full form thread mill) it
still has to trace the entire tool path. Okay, I suppose it it were a
three start thread... LOL. (I Have not yet seen that tool.) The entire
tool matches the angle and pitch of the thread. There is no way it
could cut three threads at once. If I am wrong please explain how.

> Makes it look like production, tool life, and special cases are what
> make multi-form thread mills desirable.

I use full form thread mills for blind holes in slower spindle machines
to save time. 1.5 interpolations takes less time than 15.

For through holes I use a tension compression tool on those machines
with a spiral point tap. As mentioned in my first post TC tapping is a
poor man's rigid tapping for mills that do not have c-axis control, but
good consistent RPM and quick reversal.

>
> On the con side: Unlike a single-form thread mill they cut only one
> pitch. Side loading and horsepower requirement are higher than for
> single-form.

Actually this is not correct. In practice I have found that most single
form thread mills are only suitable for one thread pitch for me, but if
you look on the manufacturers websites you will find most are listed for
a range of thread pitches. Multi form thread mills can only cut one
pitch. Whatever the spacing of the teeth is on a flute.

>
> [1] <https://www.cnccookbook.com/threadmills-and-thread-milling-speeds-feeds/>
> [2] <https://sct-usa.com/products/thread-mills/>
> [3] <https://www.harveytool.com/products/thread-milling-cutters---tri-form---un-threads>
>
>> Me> Any difference using climb cutting for a thread mill?
>
> [Then chatGPT says:]
>> Climb cutting is a machining technique in which the direction of the
>> cut is opposite to the direction of the tool's rotation. [...]
>
> Isn't that backwards? Or ambiguous. Eg, ref 1 says of climb milling,
> "the tool is [fed] in the direction of tool rotation". Also see ref 4.
>
> [4] <https://www.harveyperformance.com/in-the-loupe/conventional-vs-climb-milling/>

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Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???

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From: non...@none.com99 (Bob La Londe)
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Subject: Re: Three Form Thread Mill ???
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 by: Bob La Londe - Sat, 7 Jan 2023 18:15 UTC

On 1/7/2023 9:40 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:

>> On the con side: Unlike a single-form thread mill they cut only one
>> pitch.  Side loading and horsepower requirement are higher than for
>> single-form.
>
> Actually this is not correct.  In practice I have found that most single
> form thread mills are only suitable for one thread pitch for me, but if
> you look on the manufacturers websites you will find most are listed for
> a range of thread pitches.  Multi form thread mills can only cut one
> pitch.  Whatever the spacing of the teeth is on a flute.

Oops. I misread your comment. You said what I said. LOL.

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CNC Molds N Stuff

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Re: Three Form Thread Mill ??? - Tangent

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 by: Bob La Londe - Sat, 7 Jan 2023 18:22 UTC

On 1/2/2023 3:43 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

As a sort of off shoot on this topic. I have seen it mentioned that
some guys will use a hand tap as a defacto full form thread mill by
removing all but one flute. I can see the programming could be a bit
tricky. You wouldn't be able to use default thread mill operations
built into your CAM package since the swing diameter of the tool is the
same as the finished OD of the thread, but it sounds interesting. Maybe
you could use the standard op, and then re-hand-code the lead-in and
lead-out.

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CNC Molds N Stuff

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