So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?

Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
>
> Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
>
> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?

Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it is so easy and safe to get the vaccine? In the US there are perhaps 10% of the population who have been infected and would have natural immunity. Most of those know they were infected. But even those will gain benefit from the vaccine because immunity is not black and white, it is partial. That's why they give two shots of most of these vaccines, one gives you good protection, the second gives you great protection, but still not perfect. Immunity from previous infection is also good or great, but not perfect.

What is your point exactly? I keep responding to you in the hope of establishing a dialog, but you seem to insist on only reading poorly written articles from dubious sources without actually analyzing what is said in the light of facts.

Do you wish to discuss or just have a bit of a rant?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:15:41 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> > So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
> >
> > Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
> >
> > https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
> Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it is so easy and safe to get the vaccine?

And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually matters as to whether someone is truly immunized to the disease.

> In the US there are perhaps 10% of the population who have been infected and would have natural immunity. Most of those know they were infected. But even those will gain benefit from the vaccine because immunity is not black and white, it is partial. That's why they give two shots of most of these vaccines, one gives you good protection, the second gives you great protection, but still not perfect. Immunity from previous infection is also good or great, but not perfect.
>
> What is your point exactly? I keep responding to you in the hope of establishing a dialog, but you seem to insist on only reading poorly written articles from dubious sources without actually analyzing what is said in the light of facts.
>
> Do you wish to discuss or just have a bit of a rant?
>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
>
> Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
>
> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?

Antibody tests do not indicate immunity, they only indicate the presence of antibodies, they don't quantify the density of antibody in the blood.

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 10:37:19 PM UTC+10, Brent Locher wrote:
> So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated.
> I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?

Do tell us why they should. Keep in mind that it isn't "the" Covid antibodies - the antibodies you produce when you react to a Covid-19 infection, or the antigen in a Covid-19 vaccine, are unique to you, and depend on what kind of antibodies your genome has equipped you to make.

The antibody test exposes your antibodies to a Covid-19 antigen of some kind, and measures whether they latch on to it

One of the points about vaccines being used against Covid-19 in America and Australia, is that the antigen they use is just the highly conserved spike protein.

The antibodies that you generate after vaccination react to just that.

Natural immunity seems to recognise more of the Covid-19 virus , including bits that aren't highly conserved, so it's going to be more likely that new variants of the virus won't get recognised.
> Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
>
> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?

It does seem to think it would be a good idea to get tested to see if you had antibodies against Covid-19 before you got immunised against it, but it doesn't actually say why.

If they were less whacked out, they might have told us why.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 11:39:57 PM UTC+10, Brent Locher wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:15:41 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> > > So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
> > >
> > > Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers.....
> > >
> > > https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
> >
> > Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it is so easy and safe to get the vaccine?
>
> And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually matters as to whether someone is truly immunized to the disease.

That would be exposing them to the live virus.

That would be a bit irresponsible.

The tests that are supposed to people whether they have antibodies against Covid-19 don't seem to be all that reliable

<snipped Rick C.'s rational comments, which Brent Locher ignored, as you'd expect>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:39:54 -0700 (PDT), Brent Locher
<blocher@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:15:41 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
>> > So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
>> >
>> > Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
>> >
>> > https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
>> Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it is so easy and safe to get the vaccine?
>
>And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually matters as to whether someone is truly immunized to the disease.

There is far more to it than that.

..<https://immunology.sciencemag.org/content/5/53/eabe8063>

..<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00367-7>

.... and so on.

The immune system is very complex, with many arms and layers.

Joe Gwinn

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:48:23 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:39:54 -0700 (PDT), Brent Locher
> <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:15:41 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> >> > So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
> >> >
> >> > Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers.....
> >> >
> >> > https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
> >> Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it is so easy and safe to get the vaccine?
> >
> >And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually matters as to whether someone is truly immunized to the disease.
> There is far more to it than that.
>
> .<https://immunology.sciencemag.org/content/5/53/eabe8063>
>
> .<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00367-7>
>
>
> ... and so on.
>
> The immune system is very complex, with many arms and layers.
>
> Joe Gwinn

Funny how everything is unknown in the name of science except we know for certain that the vaccine provides a better immunity than having had covid does. I find it interesting how nuanced information is on one hand and then how certain we are on the other hand. And the funny thing is that the nuance/certainty balances always seem to line up with what the left wing agenda pushers want.

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:24:38 -0700 (PDT), Brent Locher
<blocher@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:48:23 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:39:54 -0700 (PDT), Brent Locher
>> <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:15:41 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
>> >> > So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
>> >> >
>> >> > https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
>> >> Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it is so easy and safe to get the vaccine?
>> >
>> >And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually matters as to whether someone is truly immunized to the disease.
>>
>> There is far more to it than that.
>>
>> .<https://immunology.sciencemag.org/content/5/53/eabe8063>
>>
>> .<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00367-7>
>>
>>
>> ... and so on.
>>
>> The immune system is very complex, with many arms and layers.
>
>Funny how everything is unknown in the name of science except we know for certain that the vaccine provides a better immunity than having had covid does. I find it interesting how nuanced information is on one hand and then how certain we are on the other hand. And the funny thing is that the nuance/certainty balances always seem to line up with what the left wing agenda pushers want.

Certainly there are people with agendas, like getting everybody
vaccinated. As for which gives better immunity, COVID or a vaccine,
they are comparable, but one can come up with examples where one is
better than the other.

But one's personal risk is profoundly reduced by vaccination, despite
the fact that no medical treatment is perfect.

More generally, learning how the Immune System generally works is very
useful for telling sense from nonsense.

Joe Gwinn

On 7/30/2021 6:39 AM, Brent Locher wrote:
> And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually matters as to
> whether someone is truly immunized to the disease.

You do understand that "immunization" is neither a binary (immune/susceptible)
nor *static* state of being?

Should you test folks every week to see if they are STILL "immune"?
How do you put a figure on the *level* of their immunity? ("You can
be around 2.7 infected pts with a > 50% chance of NOT catching the
disease")

"Have you been vaccinated?" Yes/No
"Please roll up your sleeve..."

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 12:24:41 PM UTC-7, Brent Locher wrote:

> Funny how everything is unknown in the name of science except we know for certain that the vaccine provides a better immunity than having had covid does.

We did controlled experiments on vaccine immunization, and other info comes from statistical epidemiology.
Nothing in science is 'for certain' because an observation tomorrow could (possibly will) give us new information.

> I find it interesting how nuanced information is on one hand and then how certain we are on the other hand. And the funny thing is that the nuance/certainty balances always seem to line up with what the left wing agenda pushers want.

No, the funny thing is that fringe thought about 'left wing' intrudes on our discussions of health issues during a pandemic.

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:39:57 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:15:41 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> > > So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
> > >
> > > Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers.....
> > >
> > > https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
> > Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it is so easy and safe to get the vaccine?
> And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually matters as to whether someone is truly immunized to the disease.

You are very mistaken. The test of whether someone is immunized to the disease is the one where we see if they live their life without contracting the disease with significant illness. We are presently conducting that test on some 164 million people in the US alone.

> > In the US there are perhaps 10% of the population who have been infected and would have natural immunity. Most of those know they were infected. But even those will gain benefit from the vaccine because immunity is not black and white, it is partial. That's why they give two shots of most of these vaccines, one gives you good protection, the second gives you great protection, but still not perfect. Immunity from previous infection is also good or great, but not perfect.
> >
> > What is your point exactly? I keep responding to you in the hope of establishing a dialog, but you seem to insist on only reading poorly written articles from dubious sources without actually analyzing what is said in the light of facts.
> >
> > Do you wish to discuss or just have a bit of a rant?

I see you completely ignore the remainder of the post that discusses logic and reason, something you seem to shy away from. Why not discuss rather than try to throw barbs?

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 3:24:41 PM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:48:23 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> > On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:39:54 -0700 (PDT), Brent Locher
> > <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:15:41 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> > >> > So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
> > >> >
> > >> > Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers.....
> > >> >
> > >> > https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
> > >> Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it is so easy and safe to get the vaccine?
> > >
> > >And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually matters as to whether someone is truly immunized to the disease.
> > There is far more to it than that.
> >
> > .<https://immunology.sciencemag.org/content/5/53/eabe8063>
> >
> > .<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00367-7>
> >
> >
> > ... and so on.
> >
> > The immune system is very complex, with many arms and layers.
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
> Funny how everything is unknown in the name of science except we know for certain that the vaccine provides a better immunity than having had covid does. I find it interesting how nuanced information is on one hand and then how certain we are on the other hand. And the funny thing is that the nuance/certainty balances always seem to line up with what the left wing agenda pushers want.

There is some evidence the immunity from the vaccines last longer than immunity from being infected (even if the details are not entirely clear), but no one I've seen has said the immunity from the vaccine is "better" than immunity from an infection. What is better about the vaccine is not having to risk serious injury or death to obtain the immunity.

If you think immunology or epidemiology is a political issue, then you are totally out of touch with reality. While some politicians may spin the information to suit their political interests, even hard right wingers who wish to not appear to be lunatics and/or actually care about their constituents (like former Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell) have supported vaccinations. Do you think Mitch McConnell is a left wing agenda pusher?

Why do you think Mitch McConnell is promoting the vaccines?

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 30/07/2021 15:17, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
>> So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
>>
>> Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
>>
>> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
>
> Antibody tests do not indicate immunity, they only indicate the presence of antibodies, they don't quantify the density of antibody in the blood.

They will return a negative result approximately 5 months after your
have recovered from Covid even if you really did have the disease. It
could be even quicker than that if you only had a mild illness.

Immunity to Covid-19 is transient (much like the other coronaviruses).

FWIW I tested negative on a Covid antibody test in the UK as part of one
of the scientific surveys looking for people who have had Covid and not
even noticed. There are at least two blood testing systems in play.

One looks for antibodies to a part of the protein coat of the virus and
the other for the more usual spike protein (the former can distinguish a
real infection from being vaccinated provided that it is used less than
three months after recovering from Covid).

Naturally acquired antibodies to Covid decay away very fast (much faster
than the 12 months typical of other human endemic coronaviruses. There
are plenty of cases in the UK of people (mostly front line medics)
catching it twice and with as little as 4 months between them.

The vaccine looks like it can hold out for around 9 months (which is
twice as long as natural acquired immunity) but still inconveniently
short. It remains to be seen if it still prevents serious illness after
that time. IOW whether Covid booster jabs will be an annual event.

I expect Pfizer would love that. They are certainly lobbying for it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-ask-fda-authorize-booster-dose-covid-vaccine-delta-variant-spreads-2021-07-08/

Circumstantial evidence in Israel is that even 9 months might be on the
optimistic side - they are now saying 6 months between boosters. They
are an outlier though seeing way more vaccine breakthrough infections
than anywhere else in the world.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 5:54:27 PM UTC+10, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 30/07/2021 15:17, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> >> So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
> >>
> >> Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
> >>
> >> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
> >
> > Antibody tests do not indicate immunity, they only indicate the presence of antibodies, they don't quantify the density of antibody in the blood.
>
> They will return a negative result approximately 5 months after your
> have recovered from Covid even if you really did have the disease. It
> could be even quicker than that if you only had a mild illness.
>
> Immunity to Covid-19 is transient (much like the other coronaviruses).

That doesn't follow. Antibodies are only part of the immune response - if the easiest one to test. Martin Brown has long confused antibody titre with immunity, and he's wrong.
> FWIW I tested negative on a Covid antibody test in the UK as part of one
> of the scientific surveys looking for people who have had Covid and not
> even noticed. There are at least two blood testing systems in play.
>
> One looks for antibodies to a part of the protein coat of the virus and
> the other for the more usual spike protein (the former can distinguish a
> real infection from being vaccinated provided that it is used less than
> three months after recovering from Covid).

The spike protein is an inevitable part of the protein coat of the virus - that protein coat is just a lot of spike proteins.

> Naturally acquired antibodies to Covid decay away very fast (much faster
> than the 12 months typical of other human endemic coronaviruses. There
> are plenty of cases in the UK of people (mostly front line medics)
> catching it twice and with as little as 4 months between them.

But they probably caught a different strain. Natural immunity isn't constrained to look at just the highly conserved spike protein, and presumably quite minor mutations can change the configuration of a several-spike protein chunk of the protein coat enough to make unrecognisable to an antibody that has been generated in response to an infection
> The vaccine looks like it can hold out for around 9 months (which is
> twice as long as natural acquired immunity) but still inconveniently
> short. It remains to be seen if it still prevents serious illness after
> that time. IOW whether Covid booster jabs will be an annual event.

The annual flu jab deals with new variants of the flu virus. People have been trying to create a flu vaccine where the antibody is just a highly conserved region of the flu virus surface, and they don't seem to have succeeded yet. We've been luckier with many of the Covid-19 vaccines.

> I expect Pfizer would love that. They are certainly lobbying for it.
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-ask-fda-authorize-booster-dose-covid-vaccine-delta-variant-spreads-2021-07-08/
>
> Circumstantial evidence in Israel is that even 9 months might be on the
> optimistic side - they are now saying 6 months between boosters. They
> are an outlier though, seeing way more vaccine breakthrough infections
> than anywhere else in the world.

Maybe they got shipped a lot of duff vaccine.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 7/31/2021 12:54 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> Circumstantial evidence in Israel is that even 9 months might be on the
> optimistic side - they are now saying 6 months between boosters. They are an
> outlier though seeing way more vaccine breakthrough infections than anywhere
> else in the world.

Unfortunately, we keep comparing apples and gizfeshnas (correct, there is
no such thing as a "gizfeshna" -- to draw attention to how radically
different "case A" and "case B", in any comparison, are likely to be).

Are the population demographics in Case A equivalent to Case B?
Are their social structures the same/similar?
Are the infection vectors the same/similar?

Etc.

The Navajo Nation is one of the most rural places, here (about 6-7 people
per square *mile*). But, "settlements" in that area tend to house
multigenerational families -- your neighbor may be a long distance away but
you've got a wide range of individuals living under one roof.

Contrast that with a neighborhood of "retirees" where there may be orders
of magnitude higher density -- but tiny households (e.g., 2 persons).

Not only don't we *see* those differences spelled out in Case A and Case B
but we also don't know how to *normalize* for them, *if* we knew them!

So, while there may be *hints* from observations of "A" that *may*
apply to "B", we can't know for sure. We don't know what aspects of
the situation are that have the most "sensitivity".

On 30/07/2021 15:28, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 11:39:57 PM UTC+10, Brent Locher wrote:
>> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:15:41 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
>>>> So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
>>>>
>>>> Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
>>>>
>>>> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
>>>
>>> Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it is so easy and safe to get the vaccine?
>>
>> And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually matters as to whether someone is truly immunized to the disease.
>
> That would be exposing them to the live virus.
>
> That would be a bit irresponsible.
>
> The tests that are supposed to people whether they have antibodies against Covid-19 don't seem to be all that reliable

They are not that unreliable.

The problem is that Covid antibodies don't hang around for long. My
friend who was a part of the recovery plasma donor scheme was back to
baseline after three months so no longer useful to them. And that is
with an assay technique more sensitive than the now mass produced tests.

The one for protein shell antibodies can detect real infections provided
it is used soon enough after recovery. The spike protein based ones can
be confused by vaccination particularly after the second jab.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 31/07/2021 07:15, Rick C wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 3:24:41 PM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
>> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:48:23 PM UTC-4, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:39:54 -0700 (PDT), Brent Locher
>>> <blo...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:15:41 AM UTC-4,
>>>> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing
>>>>>> conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole
>>>>>> vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is
>>>>>> forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining
>>>>>> whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why
>>>>>> should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually
>>>>>> have the COVID antibodies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right
>>>>>> wingers....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
>>>>>
>>>>>>
Exactly! Why should anyone give a shit about having antibodies when it
is so easy and safe to get the vaccine?
>>>>
>>>> And there you have it......ignore the only test that actually
>>>> matters as to whether someone is truly immunized to the
>>>> disease.
>>> There is far more to it than that.
>>>
>>> .<https://immunology.sciencemag.org/content/5/53/eabe8063>
>>>
>>> .<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00367-7>
>>>
>>>
>>> ... and so on.
>>>
>>> The immune system is very complex, with many arms and layers.
>>>
>>> Joe Gwinn
>> Funny how everything is unknown in the name of science except we
>> know for certain that the vaccine provides a better immunity than
>> having had covid does. I find it interesting how nuanced
>> information is on one hand and then how certain we are on the other
>> hand. And the funny thing is that the nuance/certainty balances
>> always seem to line up with what the left wing agenda pushers
>> want.
>
> There is some evidence the immunity from the vaccines last longer
> than immunity from being infected (even if the details are not
> entirely clear), but no one I've seen has said the immunity from the
> vaccine is "better" than immunity from an infection. What is better
> about the vaccine is not having to risk serious injury or death to
> obtain the immunity.

You can't have been looking very hard then. The vaccines create a
significantly stronger immune response than a mild case of Covid does.
The vaccine also targets something that should be highly conserved so
there is a decent chance it will work against future mutations.

This is a fairly quantitative comparison of the various vaccine
efficacies with antibody levels from Nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01377-8

The only people who might just have more Covid antibodies than the
vaccine generates after the second dose are those who have been very
seriously ill (probably with some level of permanent organ damage).

> If you think immunology or epidemiology is a political issue, then
> you are totally out of touch with reality. While some politicians
> may spin the information to suit their political interests, even hard
> right wingers who wish to not appear to be lunatics and/or actually
> care about their constituents (like former Senate majority leader
> Mitch McConnell) have supported vaccinations. Do you think Mitch
> McConnell is a left wing agenda pusher?

It is only in the USA that it has become a political issue that splits
along party lines. You have a really weird system where if one party
thinks something is true the other immediately insists that it is false!

A bit like the two rival farmers unions in Wales. That determined a
particular radio telescope would be built in a sub-optimal England
location to avoid an inevitable expensive planning dispute in Wales!
>
> Why do you think Mitch McConnell is promoting the vaccines?

Maybe he has shares in Pfizer?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 3:54:27 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 30/07/2021 15:17, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> >> So here you go...this crazy wacked out, right wing conspiracy nut is essentially saying that this whole vaccination campaign breaks down because the government is forbidding any anti body testing to be used in determining whether individuals should get vaccinated. I mean why should anybody need or even desire to know if they actually have the COVID antibodies?
> >>
> >> Anyway here is an article by one of these wacked out right wingers....
> >>
> >> https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-dangerous-error-advising-against-covid-antibody-testing/?
> >
> > Antibody tests do not indicate immunity, they only indicate the presence of antibodies, they don't quantify the density of antibody in the blood.
> They will return a negative result approximately 5 months after your
> have recovered from Covid even if you really did have the disease. It
> could be even quicker than that if you only had a mild illness.
>
> Immunity to Covid-19 is transient (much like the other coronaviruses).
>
> FWIW I tested negative on a Covid antibody test in the UK as part of one
> of the scientific surveys looking for people who have had Covid and not
> even noticed. There are at least two blood testing systems in play.
>
> One looks for antibodies to a part of the protein coat of the virus and
> the other for the more usual spike protein (the former can distinguish a
> real infection from being vaccinated provided that it is used less than
> three months after recovering from Covid).
>
> Naturally acquired antibodies to Covid decay away very fast (much faster
> than the 12 months typical of other human endemic coronaviruses. There
> are plenty of cases in the UK of people (mostly front line medics)
> catching it twice and with as little as 4 months between them.
>
> The vaccine looks like it can hold out for around 9 months (which is
> twice as long as natural acquired immunity) but still inconveniently
> short. It remains to be seen if it still prevents serious illness after
> that time. IOW whether Covid booster jabs will be an annual event.
>
> I expect Pfizer would love that. They are certainly lobbying for it.
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-ask-fda-authorize-booster-dose-covid-vaccine-delta-variant-spreads-2021-07-08/
>
> Circumstantial evidence in Israel is that even 9 months might be on the
> optimistic side - they are now saying 6 months between boosters. They
> are an outlier though seeing way more vaccine breakthrough infections
> than anywhere else in the world.

This is one of hundreds of studies confirming the existence of memory B-cells that persist indefinitely. When activated by the presence of the SARS virus, the B-cells will react very quickly by proliferating and secreting SARS specific antibodies in large numbers to clear the virus. You also have memory lymphocytes on standby to produce SARS specific killer cells. Numerous studies have also found the white blood cell potency is not distracted by a single variant, they are tuned into something universal. Vaccination will give you protection for life, unless you have something wrong with you.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210523/Memory-B-cells-with-a-functional-anti-SARS-CoV-2-response-persist-despite-loss-of-specific-IgG.aspx

>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

On 31/07/2021 13:31, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 3:54:27 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>> Naturally acquired antibodies to Covid decay away very fast (much faster
>> than the 12 months typical of other human endemic coronaviruses. There
>> are plenty of cases in the UK of people (mostly front line medics)
>> catching it twice and with as little as 4 months between them.
>>
>> The vaccine looks like it can hold out for around 9 months (which is
>> twice as long as natural acquired immunity) but still inconveniently
>> short. It remains to be seen if it still prevents serious illness after
>> that time. IOW whether Covid booster jabs will be an annual event.
>>
>> I expect Pfizer would love that. They are certainly lobbying for it.
>>
>> https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-ask-fda-authorize-booster-dose-covid-vaccine-delta-variant-spreads-2021-07-08/
>>
>> Circumstantial evidence in Israel is that even 9 months might be on the
>> optimistic side - they are now saying 6 months between boosters. They
>> are an outlier though seeing way more vaccine breakthrough infections
>> than anywhere else in the world.
>
> This is one of hundreds of studies confirming the existence of memory B-cells that persist indefinitely. When activated by the presence of the SARS virus, the B-cells will react very quickly by proliferating and secreting SARS specific antibodies in large numbers to clear the virus. You also have memory lymphocytes on standby to produce SARS specific killer cells. Numerous studies have also found the white blood cell potency is not distracted by a single variant, they are tuned into something universal. Vaccination will give you protection for life, unless you have something wrong with you.
>
> https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210523/Memory-B-cells-with-a-functional-anti-SARS-CoV-2-response-persist-despite-loss-of-specific-IgG.aspx

I reckon many more experts on coronaviruses think that Covid-19 will
ultimately be no different to any of the other zoonotic human endemic
coronaviruses once it has killed off the most vulnerable.

UK scientific advisors are definitely looking at a booster jab for the
most vulnerable in Autumn and are looking very hard to see exactly how
long the first generation vaccines can hold the thin red line.

<https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007573/S1332_How_long_will_vaccines_continue_to_protect_against_COVID-19.pdf>

9 months reliable protection in most healthy adults still looks like a
reasonable guesstimate at the moment.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/most-vulnerable-could-be-offered-booster-covid-19-vaccines-from-september

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 9:11:21 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 31/07/2021 13:31, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 3:54:27 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> >>
> >> Naturally acquired antibodies to Covid decay away very fast (much faster
> >> than the 12 months typical of other human endemic coronaviruses. There
> >> are plenty of cases in the UK of people (mostly front line medics)
> >> catching it twice and with as little as 4 months between them.
> >>
> >> The vaccine looks like it can hold out for around 9 months (which is
> >> twice as long as natural acquired immunity) but still inconveniently
> >> short. It remains to be seen if it still prevents serious illness after
> >> that time. IOW whether Covid booster jabs will be an annual event.
> >>
> >> I expect Pfizer would love that. They are certainly lobbying for it.
> >>
> >> https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-ask-fda-authorize-booster-dose-covid-vaccine-delta-variant-spreads-2021-07-08/
> >>
> >> Circumstantial evidence in Israel is that even 9 months might be on the
> >> optimistic side - they are now saying 6 months between boosters. They
> >> are an outlier though seeing way more vaccine breakthrough infections
> >> than anywhere else in the world.
> >
> > This is one of hundreds of studies confirming the existence of memory B-cells that persist indefinitely. When activated by the presence of the SARS virus, the B-cells will react very quickly by proliferating and secreting SARS specific antibodies in large numbers to clear the virus. You also have memory lymphocytes on standby to produce SARS specific killer cells. Numerous studies have also found the white blood cell potency is not distracted by a single variant, they are tuned into something universal. Vaccination will give you protection for life, unless you have something wrong with you..
> >
> > https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210523/Memory-B-cells-with-a-functional-anti-SARS-CoV-2-response-persist-despite-loss-of-specific-IgG.aspx
> I reckon many more experts on coronaviruses think that Covid-19 will
> ultimately be no different to any of the other zoonotic human endemic
> coronaviruses once it has killed off the most vulnerable.
>
> UK scientific advisors are definitely looking at a booster jab for the
> most vulnerable in Autumn and are looking very hard to see exactly how
> long the first generation vaccines can hold the thin red line.
>
> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007573/S1332_How_long_will_vaccines_continue_to_protect_against_COVID-19.pdf>

A bunch of conjectural drivel in pursuit of more government funding....

>
> 9 months reliable protection in most healthy adults still looks like a
> reasonable guesstimate at the moment.
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/most-vulnerable-could-be-offered-booster-covid-19-vaccines-from-september

That's an even worse link. They're pretty much saying they lack information on nearly everything they would need to know to make an informed decision.

>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 9:11:21 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 31/07/2021 13:31, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 3:54:27 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> >>
> >> Naturally acquired antibodies to Covid decay away very fast (much faster
> >> than the 12 months typical of other human endemic coronaviruses. There
> >> are plenty of cases in the UK of people (mostly front line medics)
> >> catching it twice and with as little as 4 months between them.
> >>
> >> The vaccine looks like it can hold out for around 9 months (which is
> >> twice as long as natural acquired immunity) but still inconveniently
> >> short. It remains to be seen if it still prevents serious illness after
> >> that time. IOW whether Covid booster jabs will be an annual event.
> >>
> >> I expect Pfizer would love that. They are certainly lobbying for it.
> >>
> >> https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-ask-fda-authorize-booster-dose-covid-vaccine-delta-variant-spreads-2021-07-08/
> >>
> >> Circumstantial evidence in Israel is that even 9 months might be on the
> >> optimistic side - they are now saying 6 months between boosters. They
> >> are an outlier though seeing way more vaccine breakthrough infections
> >> than anywhere else in the world.
> >
> > This is one of hundreds of studies confirming the existence of memory B-cells that persist indefinitely. When activated by the presence of the SARS virus, the B-cells will react very quickly by proliferating and secreting SARS specific antibodies in large numbers to clear the virus. You also have memory lymphocytes on standby to produce SARS specific killer cells. Numerous studies have also found the white blood cell potency is not distracted by a single variant, they are tuned into something universal. Vaccination will give you protection for life, unless you have something wrong with you..
> >
> > https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210523/Memory-B-cells-with-a-functional-anti-SARS-CoV-2-response-persist-despite-loss-of-specific-IgG.aspx
> I reckon many more experts on coronaviruses think that Covid-19 will
> ultimately be no different to any of the other zoonotic human endemic
> coronaviruses once it has killed off the most vulnerable.
>
> UK scientific advisors are definitely looking at a booster jab for the
> most vulnerable in Autumn and are looking very hard to see exactly how
> long the first generation vaccines can hold the thin red line.
>
> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007573/S1332_How_long_will_vaccines_continue_to_protect_against_COVID-19.pdf>
>
> 9 months reliable protection in most healthy adults still looks like a
> reasonable guesstimate at the moment.

Guesses, Guesses and more guesses. Yup, we have a real cluster-F on our hands. I prefer to wait for the propaganda clouds to clear out and then decide what to do next. Goebbles is cursing in his grave that he did not figure out how to brainwash so many people so effectively.

Yet we are to believe this is not an experiment as we just guess our way through this and make it up as we go along.
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/most-vulnerable-could-be-offered-booster-covid-19-vaccines-from-september
>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 11:46:08 PM UTC+10, Brent Locher wrote:
> On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 9:11:21 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > On 31/07/2021 13:31, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 3:54:27 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Naturally acquired antibodies to Covid decay away very fast (much faster
> > >> than the 12 months typical of other human endemic coronaviruses. There
> > >> are plenty of cases in the UK of people (mostly front line medics)
> > >> catching it twice and with as little as 4 months between them.
> > >>
> > >> The vaccine looks like it can hold out for around 9 months (which is
> > >> twice as long as natural acquired immunity) but still inconveniently
> > >> short. It remains to be seen if it still prevents serious illness after
> > >> that time. IOW whether Covid booster jabs will be an annual event.
> > >>
> > >> I expect Pfizer would love that. They are certainly lobbying for it.
> > >>
> > >> https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-ask-fda-authorize-booster-dose-covid-vaccine-delta-variant-spreads-2021-07-08/
> > >>
> > >> Circumstantial evidence in Israel is that even 9 months might be on the
> > >> optimistic side - they are now saying 6 months between boosters. They
> > >> are an outlier though seeing way more vaccine breakthrough infections
> > >> than anywhere else in the world.
> > >
> > > This is one of hundreds of studies confirming the existence of memory B-cells that persist indefinitely. When activated by the presence of the SARS virus, the B-cells will react very quickly by proliferating and secreting SARS specific antibodies in large numbers to clear the virus. You also have memory lymphocytes on standby to produce SARS specific killer cells. Numerous studies have also found the white blood cell potency is not distracted by a single variant, they are tuned into something universal. Vaccination will give you protection for life, unless you have something wrong with you.
> > >
> > > https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210523/Memory-B-cells-with-a-functional-anti-SARS-CoV-2-response-persist-despite-loss-of-specific-IgG.aspx
> > I reckon many more experts on coronaviruses think that Covid-19 will
> > ultimately be no different to any of the other zoonotic human endemic
> > coronaviruses once it has killed off the most vulnerable.
> >
> > UK scientific advisors are definitely looking at a booster jab for the
> > most vulnerable in Autumn and are looking very hard to see exactly how
> > long the first generation vaccines can hold the thin red line.
> >
> > <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007573/S1332_How_long_will_vaccines_continue_to_protect_against_COVID-19.pdf>
> >
> > 9 months reliable protection in most healthy adults still looks like a
> > reasonable guesstimate at the moment.
>
> Guesses, Guesses and more guesses.

This isn't guessing. There's a lot of background information behind the estimates, but estimating the long-term efficacy of vaccines which have only been around for about a year, against a virus which first showed up in December 2019 isn't easy, and nobody wants to give the impression that the estimates are more than just estimates.

> Yup, we have a real cluster-F on our hands.

We've known that since the virus started killing people in China. Now that we've got vaccines that work - though not yet enough of them - we can see how to make the problem go away, and everybody who can get their hands on a vaccine is vaccinating everybody they can. It's going to take a couple of years before we can get enough of the population vaccinated.

> I prefer to wait for the propaganda clouds to clear out and then decide what to do next.

You seem to be a conspiracy theory enthusiast who wants to treat perfectly reliable information as propaganda, and sucks fatuous propaganda as if it had some connection to reality.

> Goebbels is cursing in his grave that he did not figure out how to brainwash so many people so effectively.

Probably not. The only people being brainwashed at the moment are conspiracy theory enthusiasts like you, which is to say gullible twits. There aren't enough of them for somebody like Joseph Goebbels to waste his time on.
> Yet we are to believe this is not an experiment as we just guess our way through this and make it up as we go along.

You are doing experiments when you don't know what is going to happen, We've got a long way past that. We still don't know exactly what's going to happen, but what's going on is optimisation, not improvisation. There's still an element of adjusting the fine detail to get to the desired outcome as fast as possible but that's not "making it up as we go along".

> > https://www.gov.uk/government/news/most-vulnerable-could-be-offered-booster-covid-19-vaccines-from-september

That's "could be", not "will be", and represents the administrators being cautious about possible outcomes, rather than running around like headless chickens.

UK civil servants talk about having scientists on tap, rather than on top, and tend to imagine that their classical education lets them think more clearly than people who actually know what they are talking about. I ran into this kind of attitude in UK industry from time to time when I was working there, and it does get a bit irritating.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 9:46:08 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
>
> Guesses, Guesses and more guesses. Yup, we have a real cluster-F on our hands. I prefer to wait for the propaganda clouds to clear out and then decide what to do next. Goebbles is cursing in his grave that he did not figure out how to brainwash so many people so effectively.

What you say about brainwashing is absolutely true. In the face of such huge numbers of people receiving the vaccines and being protected from death and disease, people like you continue to believe the vaccine is somehow worse than the virus.

> Yet we are to believe this is not an experiment as we just guess our way through this and make it up as we go along.

I would ask what you are talking about, but you appear to be incapable of reason or any rational explanation. You find the smallest grains of uncertainty in the understanding of the disease and turn that into something evil. I only wish you were able to explain anything clearly because then we could help you understand what is wrong with your thinking.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 10:45:19 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 9:46:08 AM UTC-4, Brent Locher wrote:
> >
> > Guesses, Guesses and more guesses. Yup, we have a real cluster-F on our hands. I prefer to wait for the propaganda clouds to clear out and then decide what to do next. Goebbles is cursing in his grave that he did not figure out how to brainwash so many people so effectively.
> What you say about brainwashing is absolutely true. In the face of such huge numbers of people receiving the vaccines and being protected from death and disease, people like you continue to believe the vaccine is somehow worse than the virus.

That is yet to be determined. My fundamental question is why prior covid infections, whereby a person achieves natural antibodies is under no consideration at all when determining the policies of who should get vaccinated. It is absurd to not have any discussion on this subject. And now that the "delta" varient is emerging we find that the "vaccine" may or may not be helping. But again, no consideration for the 30-75 million MILLION people who have natural antibodies.

> > Yet we are to believe this is not an experiment as we just guess our way through this and make it up as we go along.
> I would ask what you are talking about, but you appear to be incapable of reason or any rational explanation. You find the smallest grains of uncertainty in the understanding of the disease and turn that into something evil.. I only wish you were able to explain anything clearly because then we could help you understand what is wrong with your thinking.
>
> --

My thinking is not wrong. This is all about rolling the dice. There is not a choice whereby all outcomes are guaranteed to be the same for all people. There are thousands of deaths and tens of thousands of disabilities caused by this vaccine. Those people chose poorly. On average you may be correct, but every person has a fundamental right to choose what they want to be injected into their body given that this thing is an experiment.
>
> Rick C.
>
> -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> -+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209