I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).

But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
(a few thousand pieces).

Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
which I don't.

Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
a bed or high on a closet shelf.

I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.

And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
for the media; less worry of warped discs!)

And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.

Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 17:25:26 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:

>I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
>Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
>accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
>to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>
>But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
>(a few thousand pieces).
>
>Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
>assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
>which I don't.
>
>Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
>a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>
>I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>
>And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
>better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
>for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>
>And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
>
>Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?

What is "optical media" ?

John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 17:25:26 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
>> Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
>> accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
>> to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>>
>> But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
>> (a few thousand pieces).
>>
>> Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
>> assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
>> which I don't.
>>
>> Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
>> a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>>
>> I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>>
>> And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
>> better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
>> for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>>
>> And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
>>
>> Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?
>
> What is "optical media" ?
>

It's the highest-density archival medium that is not itself a computer.
That has a lot of charm in our current malware-saturated era.

Cheers

Phil "Many Taiyo-Yuden DVDRs in stock" Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in news:sea2dr$aol$1@dont-
email.me:

> I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
> Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
> accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
> to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>
> But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
> (a few thousand pieces).
>
> Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
> assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
> which I don't.
>
> Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
> a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>
> I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>
> And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
> better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
> for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>
> And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
>
> Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?
>

I'll bet you could buy ten or even twenty old 1TB hard drives and
have a much more reliable long term storage library and have faster
access as well. Then you could spend your time writing a catalogue
database or spreadsheet or Web page where you could hunt up anything
you previously indexed into the 'book' and know which Drive to place
into the external hard drive bay.

I have not bought nor burned an optical disc in many years.

My entire movie collection is in the form of high resolution files
mow. VLC is your friend. My music library includes hundreds of
classical and thousand of rock and other song, and many in video form
if the author made a 'music video'.

My photo collection resides on my main drive and my back up drive
and I place new acquisitions in bot places as well. That leaves a
alot of room for programs and data. But on the archive drives...
just the good stuff...

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
news:b54hgg1f2l3jm1akrb4mdobbpkfhmmf2rp@4ax.com:

>
> What is "optical media" ?
>

This time I actually chuckled.

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
news:8ea1d5a3-cffc-08d0-ba85-1e0610778370@electrooptical.net:

> John Larkin wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 17:25:26 -0700, Don Y
>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
>>> Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
>>> accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
>>> to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>>>
>>> But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
>>> (a few thousand pieces).
>>>
>>> Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
>>> assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
>>> which I don't.
>>>
>>> Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
>>> a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>>>
>>> I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>>>
>>> And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
>>> better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
>>> for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>>>
>>> And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
>>>
>>> Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?
>>
>> What is "optical media" ?
>>
>
> It's the highest-density archival medium that is not itself a
> computer.

OPTICAL archival medium. As in BluRay.

But hard drives can store a lot per sq cm too and get at it faster
and be counted on not to fade or corrupt Remember Laser Rot in the
LD realm? And a hard drive is not a computer.

> That has a lot of charm in our current malware-saturated
> era.

An optical disc can store a bad file for later mischief just like a
hard drive can.

On 8/2/2021 5:42 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 17:25:26 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
>> Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
>> accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
>> to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>>
>> But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
>> (a few thousand pieces).
>>
>> Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
>> assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
>> which I don't.
>>
>> Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
>> a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>>
>> I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>>
>> And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
>> better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
>> for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>>
>> And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
>>
>> Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?
>
> What is "optical media" ?

CDs and DVDs are collectively refered to as optical media. And, the
drive (CD or DVD) as the "optical drive" in most manufacturers
prose.

[There are other "optical" technologies but they are in considerably
less widespread use]

As you aren't into music, you likely won't have any (music) "CDs".
Whether or not you've purchased any "video content" (e.g., movies)
on optical media is a matter of personal preference; there are folks
who still keep video tape! Likewise, if all of the software you've
purchased has been via "downloads", you likely won't have any
optical "install media".

Once you have transferred all of the content from the optical media
onto magnetic media, the only "value" the "originals" retain is as
a "free" backup -- if a 4-8TB disk drive crashes, that's a sh*tload
of "optical media copies" that disappear in an ohnosecond!

So, find an out-of-the-way place to store the "originals", identify them
in some way that makes finding a particular medium easy (e.g., number
them, sequentially, irrespective of their contents), and then have a
catalog (RDBMS) that makes it easy to find the backup(s) for any
contents of a medium that may have been lost from your "online" copy
(accidentally erased, corrupted or disk failure)

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
> news:8ea1d5a3-cffc-08d0-ba85-1e0610778370@electrooptical.net:
>
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 17:25:26 -0700, Don Y
>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
>>>> Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
>>>> accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
>>>> to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>>>>
>>>> But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
>>>> (a few thousand pieces).
>>>>
>>>> Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
>>>> assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
>>>> which I don't.
>>>>
>>>> Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
>>>> a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>>>>
>>>> I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>>>>
>>>> And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
>>>> better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
>>>> for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>>>>
>>>> And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?
>>>
>>> What is "optical media" ?
>>>
>>
>> It's the highest-density archival medium that is not itself a
>> computer.
>
> OPTICAL archival medium. As in BluRay.
>
> But hard drives can store a lot per sq cm too and get at it faster
> and be counted on not to fade or corrupt Remember Laser Rot in the
> LD realm? And a hard drive is not a computer.

Not so. HDD firmware can be subverted by APT actors via the usual SATA
firmware update mechanism.
>> That has a lot of charm in our current malware-saturated
>> era.
>
> An optical disc can store a bad file for later mischief just like a
> hard drive can.

Sure, but an optical disc itself is a pure data medium, so a clean drive
can read it with no issues.

USB/SATA storage is far more fraught.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Don Y wrote:
============
> On 8/2/2021 5:42 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> >
> > What is "optical media" ?
>
> CDs and DVDs are collectively refered to as optical media.
---------------------------------------------------------------
** FYI

JL does not listen to music nor watch movies.

Said so himself here.
He has ASD you know ......

....... Phil

On Monday, August 2, 2021 at 6:37:45 PM UTC-7, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in
> news:8ea1d5a3-cffc-08d0...@electrooptical.net:

> >> What is "optical media" ?

> > It's the highest-density archival medium that is not itself a
> > computer.
> OPTICAL archival medium. As in BluRay.
>
> But hard drives can store a lot per sq cm too and get at it faster
> and...

Have you priced BD-R media? Spinning rust is not just the speed winner, it's the
cost winner, too. Heck, against BD-R you can make a case for SSD on cost and speed.

Ten BD-R 50G disks is about $45, for 500GB; hard drive 2000GB is $55; m.2 SSD 512GB for $49

On 8/2/2021 8:08 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Monday, August 2, 2021 at 6:37:45 PM UTC-7, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>> news:8ea1d5a3-cffc-08d0...@electrooptical.net:
>
>>>> What is "optical media" ?
>
>>> It's the highest-density archival medium that is not itself a
>>> computer.
>> OPTICAL archival medium. As in BluRay.
>>
>> But hard drives can store a lot per sq cm too and get at it faster
>> and...
>
> Have you priced BD-R media? Spinning rust is not just the speed winner, it's the
> cost winner, too. Heck, against BD-R you can make a case for SSD on cost and speed.
>
> Ten BD-R 50G disks is about $45, for 500GB; hard drive 2000GB is $55; m.2 SSD 512GB for $49

The advantages that optical media has include:
- nonvolatile
- portable (machine to machine)
- portable (drive to drive -- if your drive dies, you're not SoL!)
- no problem with "accidental erasure"
- vendors are (were) more likely to *distribute* product than on magnetic
- not susceptible to magnetic fields (magnets are verbotten in this house!)

I don't use blue-ray media as it is LESS portable and more expensive.

I can buy a spindle of ~5GB DVD media (500GB) for less than $20.
As the media are so cheap, I can make a "boot disk" for *a* machine
build -- and then throw it away immediately afterwards. If I screw
something up and need that disk, again, next week -- just burn a new copy!

[Booting from a thumb drive always has me running around checking to
see what's *on* each one to decide if I can wipe it prior to building
a boot image]

Having said that, the majority of my archive runs on rust. It's just
too inexpensive to avoid! I don't bother with SSDs as load times are
relatively short and I tend to run apps for days at a time. I also
need a fair bit of storage on each workstation -- 5T on each of mine.
That could get costly for storage that doesn't need to be accessed often!
(and, with 100+GB of RAM in each machine, thrashing is rarely an issue)

The downside is you can cram *too* much on a volume and, so, it's hard to
find THE volume that you want/need -- without a catalog (system).

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 19:40:40 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

> Don Y wrote:
>============
>> On 8/2/2021 5:42 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> >
>> > What is "optical media" ?
>>
>> CDs and DVDs are collectively refered to as optical media.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>** FYI
>
> JL does not listen to music nor watch movies.

I like some movies. Good ones. Have you seen Belle, with Gugu
Mbatha-Raw? P+P with Kiera Knightly? Persuasion with Sally Hawkins?
12th Night with Ben Kingsley and Imogen Stubbs? A Room With a View?
What a Girl Wants?

>
>Said so himself here.

I said I don't much like music.
>He has ASD you know ......

Whatever I have, it seems to work. I find most "normal" people to be
disadvantaged by their emotions.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On a sunny day (Mon, 2 Aug 2021 17:25:26 -0700) it happened Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <sea2dr$aol$1@dont-email.me>:

>I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
>Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
>accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
>to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>
>But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
>(a few thousand pieces).
>
>Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
>assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
>which I don't.
>
>Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
>a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>
>I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>
>And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
>better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
>for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>
>And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
>
>Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?

I have one lightproof alu box that stores 1000, is now full:
http://panteltje.com/pub/CD_box_binnenkant_IXIMG_0549.JPG
http://www.panteltje.com/pub/CD_box_IXIMG_0547.JPG

As that box goes back decades, it seems harddisk capacity has exploded since then.
So I now have some USB 3TB disks to store what is new,
The plan exists to copy the 1000 disks to a big XXTB but that would be weeks of work.
The bad is that if you drop a 3TB disk you lose everything, so you likely need 2 (this is what I do for backup).
Still the space it takes is negligible.

The alu box is good, old CDs I burned are still OK.

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
news:0536cd12-2c91-018c-9185-5791efdbc304@electrooptical.net:

> DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
>> news:8ea1d5a3-cffc-08d0-ba85-1e0610778370@electrooptical.net:
>>
>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 17:25:26 -0700, Don Y
>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
>>>>> Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
>>>>> accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
>>>>> to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>>>>>
>>>>> But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
>>>>> (a few thousand pieces).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
>>>>> assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
>>>>> which I don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
>>>>> a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
>>>>> better than the "book" things as it should provide some
>>>>> support for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>>>>>
>>>>> And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200
>>>>> per.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?
>>>>
>>>> What is "optical media" ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's the highest-density archival medium that is not itself a
>>> computer.
>>
>> OPTICAL archival medium. As in BluRay.
>>
>> But hard drives can store a lot per sq cm too and get at it
>> faster
>> and be counted on not to fade or corrupt Remember Laser Rot in
>> the LD realm? And a hard drive is not a computer.
>
> Not so. HDD firmware can be subverted by APT actors via the usual
> SATA firmware update mechanism.

One only attaches the library when one needs access to it, and you
could easily set it up and use it as a NAS device.

>>> That has a lot of charm in our current malware-saturated
>>> era.
>>
>> An optical disc can store a bad file for later mischief just
>> like a
>> hard drive can.
>
> Sure, but an optical disc itself is a pure data medium,

Whatever that means.

> so a clean
> drive can read it with no issues.

I was referring to your reference about viruses and such. A hard
drive is no more volitile than any other file storage medium. It is
in fact the most reliable storage choice, and wow looky that is why
IT pros all STILL use hard drives and will for quite some time to
come.

> USB/SATA storage is far more fraught.
>

Bullshit. You simply cannot sit their didling the cable while it
is in use. Short of that I can boot operating system with them so I
know that I can use one as an archival device. The file write
protocols followed by the OS utility that actuall performs the
instruction and performs the CRC checks, etc. Everything goes as
normal. Glitch the cable, get an error, and all one needs do is
perform the copy again. Easy Peacy.

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in
news:sead2s$ts2$1@dont-email.me:

>
> The downside is you can cram *too* much on a volume and, so, it's
> hard to find THE volume that you want/need -- without a catalog
> (system).
>
>

The downside is that in order to BURN 10TB, you ave to devote a LOT
of personal time to the taskssssssss. To write 10TB to ten 1TB hard
drives is WAY easier.

On 8/3/2021 3:25, Don Y wrote:
> I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
> Moved the media into tyvek sleeves.  Numbered with VTOC
> accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
> to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>
> But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
> (a few thousand pieces).
>
> Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing.  But, that
> assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
> which I don't.
>
> Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
> a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>
> I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>
> And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
> better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
> for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>
> And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
>
> Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?

Hi Don,
I do backups on DVD-s (earlier on CD-s, even earlier on MO-s,
for a while even on ls-120 floppies) for over 20 years
but my quantities are not like yours. Nowadays I manage 2
backups of my "working" disk on a DVD, there were times
I managed 4-5 (as dps disk images, each a separate track & session).
What I do is just buy boxes of 50 or sometimes 25 disks
and put the disks back in the cylindrical box I bought them
with; hard to think of some method taking less space.
Not sure if you can get such boxes though, since your
collection is not of the same origin as mine.
But you can try just put them all on a rod of the right
diameter, then wrap them say into kitchen stretch foil
and bury them some place safe. Perhaps an aluminum foil
on top of the stretch foil, something like that.
(My first backup on a CD - done in 1999 - is still readable,
just checked it...).

Dimiter

onsdag den 4. august 2021 kl. 01.29.57 UTC+2 skrev Dimiter Popoff:
> On 8/3/2021 3:25, Don Y wrote:
> > I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
> > Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
> > accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
> > to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
> >
> > But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
> > (a few thousand pieces).
> >
> > Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
> > assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
> > which I don't.
> >
> > Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
> > a bed or high on a closet shelf.
> >
> > I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
> >
> > And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
> > better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
> > for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
> >
> > And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
> >
> > Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?
> Hi Don,
> I do backups on DVD-s (earlier on CD-s, even earlier on MO-s,
> for a while even on ls-120 floppies) for over 20 years
> but my quantities are not like yours. Nowadays I manage 2
> backups of my "working" disk on a DVD, there were times
> I managed 4-5 (as dps disk images, each a separate track & session).
> What I do is just buy boxes of 50 or sometimes 25 disks
> and put the disks back in the cylindrical box I bought them
> with; hard to think of some method taking less space.
> Not sure if you can get such boxes though, since your
> collection is not of the same origin as mine.
> But you can try just put them all on a rod of the right
> diameter, then wrap them say into kitchen stretch foil
> and bury them some place safe. Perhaps an aluminum foil
> on top of the stretch foil, something like that.
> (My first backup on a CD - done in 1999 - is still readable,
> just checked it...).
>
> Dimiter

I have plenty of CDRs younger than that can barely be read, and often
only with and old slow drive

On 04/08/21 00:29, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> (My first backup on a CD - done in 1999 - is still readable,
> just checked it...).

Around about that time there was a pretty thorough investigation
(?NIST?) into the archival properties of CDR media.

The finding was that there was a vast difference between
the different materials used, and that brands used whatever
materials were available at the time.

Conclusion: they can be good, but practically you can't rely
on it.

On 8/3/2021 4:29 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> I do backups on DVD-s (earlier on CD-s, even earlier on MO-s,
> for a while even on ls-120 floppies) for over 20 years
> but my quantities are not like yours.

To be clear, these aren't backups. Rather, they are "store bought"
originals... music, videos, software/OS install disks, etc.

Usually, they came in "larger" packaging -- jewel cases for CDs,
DVD cases for movies, and a variety of different packaging options
for software.

E.g., I have several hundred that contain licensed clip-art
(if I'm putting together a document, the LAST thing that I want
to do is to have to DRAW something -- esp if I can just buy a
license to use something that a professional artist has
already drawn!).

I probably have close to a thousand music CDs. No idea how many
DVDs, etc.

The CD/DVD "blanks" that I have are typically single/few use media;
e.g., if I need to install an OS on a machine, I will locate the
ISO of the install media on one of my (magnetic) disks and use
that to burn a CD/DVD. Carry that to the machine in question
and boot from it.

[If I am going to install an *application*, I repeat the process but
use CIFS to mount it on the local machine]

"Blanks" are typically sold, here, on a spindle of differing capacities:

<https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/cd-dvd-spindle-13142383.jpg>

<https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/ces-images-bucket/Images/ING-K44544_0023942952510_image1.jpg>

I've a friend who stores his (burned) media back on such a spindle.
I'm not sure how well the media fare, in that case, as accessing
*any* disc inevitably results in some rubbing between adjacent discs.

> Nowadays I manage 2
> backups of my "working" disk on a DVD, there were times
> I managed 4-5 (as dps disk images, each a separate track & session).

I just "push" a snapshot (tar, zip, etc.) of the portion of
the filesystem onto another disk, "somewhere" (over the network).
This is relatively quick (so I can do it often) and helps
distribute the "liability" to other machines, media, etc.

> What I do is just buy boxes of 50 or sometimes 25 disks
> and put the disks back in the cylindrical box I bought them
> with; hard to think of some method taking less space.
> Not sure if you can get such boxes though, since your
> collection is not of the same origin as mine.
> But you can try just put them all on a rod of the right
> diameter, then wrap them say into kitchen stretch foil
> and bury them some place safe. Perhaps an aluminum foil
> on top of the stretch foil, something like that.
> (My first backup on a CD - done in 1999 - is still readable,
> just checked it...).

I've had good luck with CD audio discs, in the past (when
I used to use a CD player for music). But, 4G is a bit cramped
for anything I'm working on (unless you just want to deal with
incremental backups).

I've put each disc in a sleeve so putting them on a spindle would
be tedious (I'd have to poke a hole in each sleeve!). So, they
are ideal for boxing.

You can buy "luggage" that will store hundreds (1000) at a time:

<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/171120740617-0-1/s-l1000.jpg>

OTOH, it's annoying to have to spend a few hundred dollars on
cases -- to store media that you're likely never going to use!

On 8/3/2021 5:50 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 04/08/21 00:29, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>> (My first backup on a CD - done in 1999 - is still readable,
>> just checked it...).
>
> Around about that time there was a pretty thorough investigation
> (?NIST?) into the archival properties of CDR media.
>
> The finding was that there was a vast difference between
> the different materials used, and that brands used whatever
> materials were available at the time.
>
> Conclusion: they can be good, but practically you can't rely
> on it.

I suspect most "backups" can't be relied on, for any length of time.
The common flaw is not verifying that you *can* restore one! Do
you still have the software to do so? Is the media on which it resides
intact?

I log MD5s of every file in my archive to a database. Whenever
any volume is mounted, a daemon queries the RDBMS to determine
which files have been verified "least recently" and computes
the hashes for comparison with the stored values. So, I get
alerted any time a file is corrupted -- hopefully before
the entire medium becomes so.

[And, because I have the hashes (and other metadata) in a DBMS,
I can locate other copies of that file easily (even if they
have different names). So, I can decide if the corrupt
copy needs rescue/restore, or not]

On 8/3/2021 4:46 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> onsdag den 4. august 2021 kl. 01.29.57 UTC+2 skrev Dimiter Popoff:
>> On 8/3/2021 3:25, Don Y wrote:
>>> I've discarded all of the jewel cases as they just add bulk.
>>> Moved the media into tyvek sleeves. Numbered with VTOC
>>> accessible via RDBMS (easier to look up a "media ID #" than
>>> to try to alphabetize or otherwise sort them by name/title).
>>>
>>> But, storing the actual (sleeved) media is proving challenging
>>> (a few thousand pieces).
>>>
>>> Yes, they make furniture for this sort of thing. But, that
>>> assumes you need easy access (this is my "originals" archive),
>>> which I don't.
>>>
>>> Ideally, some sort of boxes that I can possibly hide under
>>> a bed or high on a closet shelf.
>>>
>>> I see some book-type cases that will store dozens to hundreds.
>>>
>>> And, a few "suitcases" that claim to store 1000 (this likely
>>> better than the "book" things as it should provide some support
>>> for the media; less worry of warped discs!)
>>>
>>> And, a few pressboard (?) boxes with lids but only ~100-200 per.
>>>
>>> Anyone have a preference for any of these, in practice?
>> Hi Don,
>> I do backups on DVD-s (earlier on CD-s, even earlier on MO-s,
>> for a while even on ls-120 floppies) for over 20 years
>> but my quantities are not like yours. Nowadays I manage 2
>> backups of my "working" disk on a DVD, there were times
>> I managed 4-5 (as dps disk images, each a separate track & session).
>> What I do is just buy boxes of 50 or sometimes 25 disks
>> and put the disks back in the cylindrical box I bought them
>> with; hard to think of some method taking less space.
>> Not sure if you can get such boxes though, since your
>> collection is not of the same origin as mine.
>> But you can try just put them all on a rod of the right
>> diameter, then wrap them say into kitchen stretch foil
>> and bury them some place safe. Perhaps an aluminum foil
>> on top of the stretch foil, something like that.
>> (My first backup on a CD - done in 1999 - is still readable,
>> just checked it...).
>>
>> Dimiter
>
> I have plenty of CDRs younger than that can barely be read, and often
> only with and old slow drive

When I used to "close out" a project, I would move everything onto
optical media (CD's, originally, then DVDs when they became
available) and store that with the "paperwork" for the project.

When I started to build my current "master archive", I pulled each
of these out and used them to prime the archive. I didn't have any
problems reading them -- despite hearing horror stories from lots
of other folks in re: their durability.

I'll note, however, that I always burn at the slowest speed I can
coax the software+media to support. And, the environment, here,
is very dry -- no idea if that plays a factor. Finally, they
are not stored "under pressure" (e.g., stacked on a spindle)
or exposed to light/heat.

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in news:secpe5$8ti$1@dont-
email.me:

> To be clear, these aren't backups. Rather, they are "store bought"
> originals... music, videos, software/OS install disks, etc.
>
> Usually, they came in "larger" packaging -- jewel cases for CDs,
> DVD cases for movies, and a variety of different packaging options
> for software.
>

Ahhh... stamped and metallized (the type you describe) has a far
better longevity tha any burned disc. So those will last for years or
even decades.

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Aug 2021 01:50:37 +0100) it happened Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <seco8t$2u6$4@dont-email.me>:

>On 04/08/21 00:29, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>> (My first backup on a CD - done in 1999 - is still readable,
>> just checked it...).
>
>Around about that time there was a pretty thorough investigation
>(?NIST?) into the archival properties of CDR media.
>
>The finding was that there was a vast difference between
>the different materials used, and that brands used whatever
>materials were available at the time.
>
>Conclusion: they can be good, but practically you can't rely
>on it.

I have some important stuff on M-Disc, supposed to last hundreds of years
Needs a M-Disc capable burner though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC

I think the limiting factor in all this is the reader hardware.
For example I do have 5 1/4 inch floppies but no longer a drive...

For an electric interface to say an xTB hard disk you can always design
something / write some code to get the data.
Optical drives are harder to build, at least for me.

So, all comes down to change storage system ever so many years perhaps?
With the millions produced some archaeologist may dig up a DVD drive one day and like the Rosetta stone decode 20th century
music.

On a sunny day (Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:46:44 -0700) it happened Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <secri9$l22$1@dont-email.me>:

>When I started to build my current "master archive", I pulled each
>of these out and used them to prime the archive. I didn't have any
>problems reading them -- despite hearing horror stories from lots
>of other folks in re: their durability.
>
>I'll note, however, that I always burn at the slowest speed I can
>coax the software+media to support. And, the environment, here,
>is very dry -- no idea if that plays a factor. Finally, they
>are not stored "under pressure" (e.g., stacked on a spindle)
>or exposed to light/heat.

The secret is storing the disc in the DARK.
Like from old photography: exposure-time * light-intensity is what counts.
Put the disc on the bookshelf in a plastic box where part of the day the sun shines directly on it,
and it will be unusable in a day!! Tested that,
In the light proof alu box it lasts > 20 years (tested that).

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/08/21 00:29, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>> (My first backup on a CD - done in 1999 - is still readable,
>> just checked it...).
>
> Around about that time there was a pretty thorough investigation
> (?NIST?) into the archival properties of CDR media.
>
> The finding was that there was a vast difference between
> the different materials used, and that brands used whatever
> materials were available at the time.
>
> Conclusion: they can be good, but practically you can't rely
> on it.

Earlier this year I copied images of all the CD-ROMs I still had
in storage to a USB harddisk, to archive them before throwing them
away. Things that I most likely would never use again, but just
in case. These were OS distribution disks, shareware collections,
driver disks, and a couple of backups.

Most of them were "pressed" disks but also quite some writables.
Even some of the "pressed" disks were unreadable, but they were all
part of a set of 10 shareware disks of apparently questionable
quality. I think maybe 20% of the writables had issues.

Those disks were mostly 20-30 years old, the writables a bit more
recent on average (15-20+ years).

I had a big box of plastic to bring to the recycling place.