The reason that the major manufacturers are not using cogsets with small cogs less than 11 tooth is because efficiency drops off sharply. These were essentially forced upon people because without an 11 tooth you are very rapidly spun out with a compact crankset.

There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same lower ratio as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though that uses a 12 speed "medium" rear derailleur arm length.

Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11 tooth since you can feel the increase in drag as you shift it into the 11. This is why they used to always use a 12 or 13, or even a 14 for criterium racing. You get a whole lot less losses pulling the chain around the diameter of a 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings for 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around here people seem to have universally changed over to compact cranksets but I am beginning to wonder if that was ever a good idea.

Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and expensive it is looking like I will be forced into a 12 speed setup. At the moment they are expensive as well but with a recession I expect them to fall.

On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
> The reason that the major manufacturers are not using cogsets with small cogs less than 11 tooth is because efficiency drops off sharply. These were essentially forced upon people because without an 11 tooth you are very rapidly spun out with a compact crankset.

"Campagnolo Ekar Cassette - 13 Speed
The 1x system works best for gravel, with the 13-speed configuration
enabling that to work across a full range of gearing ratios and what
underpins that is the use of a 9-tooth sprocket."

A major manufacturer using a cogset with less than 11 teeth.

This is for a single chain ring crank set.

You're still able to buy "normal" cranksets, with a 39/53 combo, and
cassettes with a 12t smallest cog is easy to find. I just bought one in
11 speed.

>
> There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same lower ratio as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though that uses a 12 speed "medium" rear derailleur arm length.
>
> Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11 tooth since you can feel the increase in drag as you shift it into the 11. This is why they used to always use a 12 or 13, or even a 14 for criterium racing. You get a whole lot less losses pulling the chain around the diameter of a 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings for 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around here people seem to have universally changed over to compact cranksets but I am beginning to wonder if that was ever a good idea.
>
> Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and expensive it is looking like I will be forced into a 12 speed setup. At the moment they are expensive as well but with a recession I expect them to fall.

A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
probably should have a touring bike with a triple.

--
JS.

Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:
> On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:

>> There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same lower ratio
>> as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though that uses a 12 speed
>> "medium" rear derailleur arm length.
>>
>> Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11 tooth since
>> you can feel the increase in drag as you shift it into the 11. This is
>> why they used to always use a 12 or 13, or even a 14 for criterium
>> racing. You get a whole lot less losses pulling the chain around the
>> diameter of a 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings
>> for 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around here
>> people seem to have universally changed over to compact cranksets but
>> I am beginning to wonder if that was ever a good idea.
>>
>> Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and expensive it is
>> looking like I will be forced into a 12 speed setup. At the moment
>> they are expensive as well but with a recession I expect them to fall.
>
> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.

....which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more. Looking for an
affordable touring bike with 'road' handlebars for my son, I can find
gravel bikes with 105 double groupset with a 34/34 minimum or with a GRX
double groupset with a 34/38 minimum (both have a 50/11 as max).

Rolf

On 11/30/2022 10:44 PM, James wrote:
> On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> The reason that the major manufacturers are not using
>> cogsets with small cogs less than 11 tooth is because
>> efficiency drops off sharply. These were essentially
>> forced upon people because without an 11 tooth you are
>> very rapidly spun out with a compact crankset.
>
> "Campagnolo Ekar Cassette - 13 Speed
> The 1x system works best for gravel, with the 13-speed
> configuration enabling that to work across a full range of
> gearing ratios and what underpins that is the use of a
> 9-tooth sprocket."
>
>
> A major manufacturer using a cogset with less than 11 teeth.
>
>
> This is for a single chain ring crank set.
>
> You're still able to buy "normal" cranksets, with a 39/53
> combo, and cassettes with a 12t smallest cog is easy to
> find. I just bought one in 11 speed.
>
>>
>> There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same
>> lower ratio as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though
>> that uses a 12 speed "medium" rear derailleur arm length.
>>
>> Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11
>> tooth since you can feel the increase in drag as you shift
>> it into the 11. This is why they used to always use a 12
>> or 13, or even a 14 for criterium racing. You get a whole
>> lot less losses pulling the chain around the diameter of a
>> 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings for
>> 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around
>> here people seem to have universally changed over to
>> compact cranksets but I am beginning to wonder if that was
>> ever a good idea.
>>
>> Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and
>> expensive it is looking like I will be forced into a 12
>> speed setup. At the moment they are expensive as well but
>> with a recession I expect them to fall.
>
> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t
> sprocket. If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear
> on a road bike, they probably should have a touring bike
> with a triple.
>

Good point but most modern setups (with 11 speed) are 34x48
or 36x50.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 8:44:47 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > The reason that the major manufacturers are not using cogsets with small cogs less than 11 tooth is because efficiency drops off sharply. These were essentially forced upon people because without an 11 tooth you are very rapidly spun out with a compact crankset.
> "Campagnolo Ekar Cassette - 13 Speed
> The 1x system works best for gravel, with the 13-speed configuration
> enabling that to work across a full range of gearing ratios and what
> underpins that is the use of a 9-tooth sprocket."
>
>
> A major manufacturer using a cogset with less than 11 teeth.
>
>
> This is for a single chain ring crank set.
>
> You're still able to buy "normal" cranksets, with a 39/53 combo, and
> cassettes with a 12t smallest cog is easy to find. I just bought one in
> 11 speed.
> >
> > There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same lower ratio as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though that uses a 12 speed "medium" rear derailleur arm length.
> >
> > Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11 tooth since you can feel the increase in drag as you shift it into the 11. This is why they used to always use a 12 or 13, or even a 14 for criterium racing. You get a whole lot less losses pulling the chain around the diameter of a 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings for 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around here people seem to have universally changed over to compact cranksets but I am beginning to wonder if that was ever a good idea.
> >
> > Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and expensive it is looking like I will be forced into a 12 speed setup. At the moment they are expensive as well but with a recession I expect them to fall.
> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.

James, all I can suggest is you try to pedal a 9 tooth on a road bike.

On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 6:07:37 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/30/2022 10:44 PM, James wrote:
> > On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> The reason that the major manufacturers are not using
> >> cogsets with small cogs less than 11 tooth is because
> >> efficiency drops off sharply. These were essentially
> >> forced upon people because without an 11 tooth you are
> >> very rapidly spun out with a compact crankset.
> >
> > "Campagnolo Ekar Cassette - 13 Speed
> > The 1x system works best for gravel, with the 13-speed
> > configuration enabling that to work across a full range of
> > gearing ratios and what underpins that is the use of a
> > 9-tooth sprocket."
> >
> >
> > A major manufacturer using a cogset with less than 11 teeth.
> >
> >
> > This is for a single chain ring crank set.
> >
> > You're still able to buy "normal" cranksets, with a 39/53
> > combo, and cassettes with a 12t smallest cog is easy to
> > find. I just bought one in 11 speed.
> >
> >>
> >> There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same
> >> lower ratio as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though
> >> that uses a 12 speed "medium" rear derailleur arm length.
> >>
> >> Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11
> >> tooth since you can feel the increase in drag as you shift
> >> it into the 11. This is why they used to always use a 12
> >> or 13, or even a 14 for criterium racing. You get a whole
> >> lot less losses pulling the chain around the diameter of a
> >> 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings for
> >> 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around
> >> here people seem to have universally changed over to
> >> compact cranksets but I am beginning to wonder if that was
> >> ever a good idea.
> >>
> >> Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and
> >> expensive it is looking like I will be forced into a 12
> >> speed setup. At the moment they are expensive as well but
> >> with a recession I expect them to fall.
> >
> > A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t
> > sprocket. If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear
> > on a road bike, they probably should have a touring bike
> > with a triple.
> >
> Good point but most modern setups (with 11 speed) are 34x48
> or 36x50.

Standard gearing or larger is used by every pro. I have even seen a 56 being used but the very idea gives me the jitters.

On 2/12/22 03:10, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 8:44:47 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
>> On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> The reason that the major manufacturers are not using cogsets with small cogs less than 11 tooth is because efficiency drops off sharply. These were essentially forced upon people because without an 11 tooth you are very rapidly spun out with a compact crankset.
>> "Campagnolo Ekar Cassette - 13 Speed
>> The 1x system works best for gravel, with the 13-speed configuration
>> enabling that to work across a full range of gearing ratios and what
>> underpins that is the use of a 9-tooth sprocket."
>>
>>
>> A major manufacturer using a cogset with less than 11 teeth.
>>

> James, all I can suggest is you try to pedal a 9 tooth on a road bike.

Highly unlikely to occur in the foreseeable future.

And I suggest if you "spin out with a compact crank set", buy a regular
crank set. 53x12 is big enough for me, now I've not raced for a few years.

--
JS

On 2/12/22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:
>> On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>>> There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same lower
>>> ratio as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though that uses a 12 speed
>>> "medium" rear derailleur arm length.
>>>
>>> Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11 tooth since
>>> you can feel the increase in drag as you shift it into the 11. This
>>> is why they used to always use a 12 or 13, or even a 14 for criterium
>>> racing. You get a whole lot less losses pulling the chain around the
>>> diameter of a 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings
>>> for 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around here
>>> people seem to have universally changed over to compact cranksets but
>>> I am beginning to wonder if that was ever a good idea.
>>>
>>> Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and expensive it is
>>> looking like I will be forced into a 12 speed setup. At the moment
>>> they are expensive as well but with a recession I expect them to fall.
>>
>> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
>> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
>> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.
>
> ...which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more.

On sale (cheap) or for sale and in stock? My first google search hit
yields a source with stock at just $92 AUD.

https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/campagnolo-centaur-rear-derailleur/136661616/p

Seems reasonable to me.

  Looking for an
> affordable touring bike with 'road' handlebars for my son, I can find
> gravel bikes with 105 double groupset with a 34/34 minimum or with a GRX
> double groupset with a 34/38 minimum (both have a 50/11 as max).

For touring with heavy loads I would advise a triple chainring. In
Campagnolo, the Athena group set has an 11 speed triple crank and long
arm rear derailleur, etc.

Campagnolo have gone the 1x direction for gravel and cyclocross. I
don't like it. The steps are too large. I prefer a 2x with a tighter
cassette for unloaded gravel riding.

I've nearly completed a build of a 2x11 gravel bike with Shimano GRX
crank 30/46, and the rest Campagnolo Centaur 11s, 12-32t cassette.
Depending on the terrain, load and rider, that might be enough for touring.

--
JS

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:36:31 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> On 2/12/22 03:10, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 8:44:47 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> >> On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> The reason that the major manufacturers are not using cogsets with small cogs less than 11 tooth is because efficiency drops off sharply. These were essentially forced upon people because without an 11 tooth you are very rapidly spun out with a compact crankset.
> >> "Campagnolo Ekar Cassette - 13 Speed
> >> The 1x system works best for gravel, with the 13-speed configuration
> >> enabling that to work across a full range of gearing ratios and what
> >> underpins that is the use of a 9-tooth sprocket."
> >>
> >>
> >> A major manufacturer using a cogset with less than 11 teeth.
> >>
> > James, all I can suggest is you try to pedal a 9 tooth on a road bike.
> Highly unlikely to occur in the foreseeable future.
>
> And I suggest if you "spin out with a compact crank set", buy a regular
> crank set. 53x12 is big enough for me, now I've not raced for a few years..
>
> --
> JS
I would think that a 53/34 would have been fine but I think that the manufacturers discovered that it wouldn't shift reliably on the front derailleur. This gives me questions about a 52/36.

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> On 2/12/22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> > Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:
> >> On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> >>> There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same lower
> >>> ratio as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though that uses a 12 speed
> >>> "medium" rear derailleur arm length.
> >>>
> >>> Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11 tooth since
> >>> you can feel the increase in drag as you shift it into the 11. This
> >>> is why they used to always use a 12 or 13, or even a 14 for criterium
> >>> racing. You get a whole lot less losses pulling the chain around the
> >>> diameter of a 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings
> >>> for 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around here
> >>> people seem to have universally changed over to compact cranksets but
> >>> I am beginning to wonder if that was ever a good idea.
> >>>
> >>> Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and expensive it is
> >>> looking like I will be forced into a 12 speed setup. At the moment
> >>> they are expensive as well but with a recession I expect them to fall.
> >>
> >> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
> >> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
> >> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.
> >
> > ...which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more.
> On sale (cheap) or for sale and in stock? My first google search hit
> yields a source with stock at just $92 AUD.
>
> https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/campagnolo-centaur-rear-derailleur/136661616/p
>

Rolf was speaking of a triple crankset. A friend of mine seems to have bought one of the last triples which was sold as a Campy Ekar way back when.

> Seems reasonable to me.
> Looking for an
> > affordable touring bike with 'road' handlebars for my son, I can find
> > gravel bikes with 105 double groupset with a 34/34 minimum or with a GRX
> > double groupset with a 34/38 minimum (both have a 50/11 as max).
> For touring with heavy loads I would advise a triple chainring. In
> Campagnolo, the Athena group set has an 11 speed triple crank and long
> arm rear derailleur, etc.
>
> Campagnolo have gone the 1x direction for gravel and cyclocross. I
> don't like it. The steps are too large. I prefer a 2x with a tighter
> cassette for unloaded gravel riding.
>
> I've nearly completed a build of a 2x11 gravel bike with Shimano GRX
> crank 30/46, and the rest Campagnolo Centaur 11s, 12-32t cassette.
> Depending on the terrain, load and rider, that might be enough for touring.

The increase in drag from the 11 tooth is so noticeable that I have to drop back to the 13 save on steep descents.

On 12/6/2022 11:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
>> On 2/12/22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:
>>>> On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>>>> There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same lower
>>>>> ratio as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though that uses a 12 speed
>>>>> "medium" rear derailleur arm length.
>>>>>
>>>>> Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11 tooth since
>>>>> you can feel the increase in drag as you shift it into the 11. This
>>>>> is why they used to always use a 12 or 13, or even a 14 for criterium
>>>>> racing. You get a whole lot less losses pulling the chain around the
>>>>> diameter of a 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings
>>>>> for 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around here
>>>>> people seem to have universally changed over to compact cranksets but
>>>>> I am beginning to wonder if that was ever a good idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and expensive it is
>>>>> looking like I will be forced into a 12 speed setup. At the moment
>>>>> they are expensive as well but with a recession I expect them to fall.
>>>>
>>>> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
>>>> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
>>>> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.
>>>
>>> ...which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more.
>> On sale (cheap) or for sale and in stock? My first google search hit
>> yields a source with stock at just $92 AUD.
>>
>> https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/campagnolo-centaur-rear-derailleur/136661616/p
>>
>
> Rolf was speaking of a triple crankset. A friend of mine seems to have bought one of the last triples which was sold as a Campy Ekar way back when.
>
>> Seems reasonable to me.
>> Looking for an
>>> affordable touring bike with 'road' handlebars for my son, I can find
>>> gravel bikes with 105 double groupset with a 34/34 minimum or with a GRX
>>> double groupset with a 34/38 minimum (both have a 50/11 as max).
>> For touring with heavy loads I would advise a triple chainring. In
>> Campagnolo, the Athena group set has an 11 speed triple crank and long
>> arm rear derailleur, etc.
>>
>> Campagnolo have gone the 1x direction for gravel and cyclocross. I
>> don't like it. The steps are too large. I prefer a 2x with a tighter
>> cassette for unloaded gravel riding.
>>
>> I've nearly completed a build of a 2x11 gravel bike with Shimano GRX
>> crank 30/46, and the rest Campagnolo Centaur 11s, 12-32t cassette.
>> Depending on the terrain, load and rider, that might be enough for touring.
>
> The increase in drag from the 11 tooth is so noticeable that I have to drop back to the 13 save on steep descents.
>

Nope, Ekar is a single chainring system.

Recent triples were Comp Triple, Race Triple and finally Athena.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 10:15:13 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/6/2022 11:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> >> On 2/12/22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>> Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:
> >>>> On 29/11/22 06:54, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> There is a "medium" crankset with 52/36 which has the same lower
> >>>>> ratio as the 32/34 using a "medium" 36/34 though that uses a 12 speed
> >>>>> "medium" rear derailleur arm length.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Top speeds descending become a problem when you use an 11 tooth since
> >>>>> you can feel the increase in drag as you shift it into the 11. This
> >>>>> is why they used to always use a 12 or 13, or even a 14 for criterium
> >>>>> racing. You get a whole lot less losses pulling the chain around the
> >>>>> diameter of a 14 tooth than an 11. In my parts box I have lock rings
> >>>>> for 12,13 and 14 tooth small cogs. Because of the hills around here
> >>>>> people seem to have universally changed over to compact cranksets but
> >>>>> I am beginning to wonder if that was ever a good idea.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now that 11 speed parts are becoming both rare and expensive it is
> >>>>> looking like I will be forced into a 12 speed setup. At the moment
> >>>>> they are expensive as well but with a recession I expect them to fall.
> >>>>
> >>>> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
> >>>> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
> >>>> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.
> >>>
> >>> ...which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more.
> >> On sale (cheap) or for sale and in stock? My first google search hit
> >> yields a source with stock at just $92 AUD.
> >>
> >> https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/campagnolo-centaur-rear-derailleur/136661616/p
> >>
> >
> > Rolf was speaking of a triple crankset. A friend of mine seems to have bought one of the last triples which was sold as a Campy Ekar way back when.
> >
> >> Seems reasonable to me.
> >> Looking for an
> >>> affordable touring bike with 'road' handlebars for my son, I can find
> >>> gravel bikes with 105 double groupset with a 34/34 minimum or with a GRX
> >>> double groupset with a 34/38 minimum (both have a 50/11 as max).
> >> For touring with heavy loads I would advise a triple chainring. In
> >> Campagnolo, the Athena group set has an 11 speed triple crank and long
> >> arm rear derailleur, etc.
> >>
> >> Campagnolo have gone the 1x direction for gravel and cyclocross. I
> >> don't like it. The steps are too large. I prefer a 2x with a tighter
> >> cassette for unloaded gravel riding.
> >>
> >> I've nearly completed a build of a 2x11 gravel bike with Shimano GRX
> >> crank 30/46, and the rest Campagnolo Centaur 11s, 12-32t cassette.
> >> Depending on the terrain, load and rider, that might be enough for touring.
> >
> > The increase in drag from the 11 tooth is so noticeable that I have to drop back to the 13 save on steep descents.
> >
> Nope, Ekar is a single chainring system.
>
> Recent triples were Comp Triple, Race Triple and finally Athena.

Then it wasn't Ekar. It was a Campy touring group and it was the only Campy part that he could get a triple with and they stopped making them immediately after he bought the set for him and his wife.

On 7/12/22 04:22, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
>> On 2/12/22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:

>>>> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
>>>> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
>>>> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.
>>>
>>> ...which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more.
>> On sale (cheap) or for sale and in stock? My first google search hit
>> yields a source with stock at just $92 AUD.
>>
>> https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/campagnolo-centaur-rear-derailleur/136661616/p
>>
>
> Rolf was speaking of a triple crankset. A friend of mine seems to have bought one of the last triples which was sold as a Campy Ekar way back when.

Oh, well, here's an Athena triple for sale.

https://www.bikechain.com.au/a/cranksets/campagnolo/crankset-11sp-athena-triple-5-arm-p-t/100002071

>
> The increase in drag from the 11 tooth is so noticeable that I have to drop back to the 13 save on steep descents.

ROTFLOL

--
JS

Am 07.12.2022 um 03:51 schrieb James:
> On 7/12/22 04:22, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
>>> On 2/12/22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:
>
>>>>> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
>>>>> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
>>>>> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.
>>>>
>>>> ...which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more.
>>> On sale (cheap) or for sale and in stock? My first google search hit
>>> yields a source with stock at just $92 AUD.
>>>
>>> https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/campagnolo-centaur-rear-derailleur/136661616/p
>>>
>>
>> Rolf was speaking of a triple crankset. A friend of mine seems to have
>> bought one of the last triples which was sold as a Campy Ekar way back
>> when.
>
> Oh, well, here's an Athena triple for sale.
>
> https://www.bikechain.com.au/a/cranksets/campagnolo/crankset-11sp-athena-triple-5-arm-p-t/100002071

I was looking for *a touring road bike with triple crankset* for my son
(like the 'Dawes Super Galaxy' - IIRC with Athena groupset - my friend
bought in 1995), not a triple crankset without a bike attached.

Currently, the best you can get seems to be a gravel bike with 2x11 GRX
with 34:38 as lowest gear.

Rolf

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 6:51:04 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> On 7/12/22 04:22, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> >> On 2/12/22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>> Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:
>
> >>>> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
> >>>> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
> >>>> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.
> >>>
> >>> ...which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more.
> >> On sale (cheap) or for sale and in stock? My first google search hit
> >> yields a source with stock at just $92 AUD.
> >>
> >> https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/campagnolo-centaur-rear-derailleur/136661616/p
> >>
> >
> > Rolf was speaking of a triple crankset. A friend of mine seems to have bought one of the last triples which was sold as a Campy Ekar way back when.
> Oh, well, here's an Athena triple for sale.
>
> https://www.bikechain.com.au/a/cranksets/campagnolo/crankset-11sp-athena-triple-5-arm-p-t/100002071
> >
> > The increase in drag from the 11 tooth is so noticeable that I have to drop back to the 13 save on steep descents.
> ROTFLOL

You point out a 5 year old "new" 11 speed Athena (actually a Centaur from a year earlier) with 170 mm arms for $370 and you can't feel the load of an 11 tooth cog? Obviously they designed the SRAM with a 9 tooth cog for you.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:11:02 AM UTC-8, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 07.12.2022 um 03:51 schrieb James:
> > On 7/12/22 04:22, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> >>> On 2/12/22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>>> Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:
> >
> >>>>> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
> >>>>> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
> >>>>> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.
> >>>>
> >>>> ...which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more.
> >>> On sale (cheap) or for sale and in stock? My first google search hit
> >>> yields a source with stock at just $92 AUD.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/campagnolo-centaur-rear-derailleur/136661616/p
> >>>
> >>
> >> Rolf was speaking of a triple crankset. A friend of mine seems to have
> >> bought one of the last triples which was sold as a Campy Ekar way back
> >> when.
> >
> > Oh, well, here's an Athena triple for sale.
> >
> > https://www.bikechain.com.au/a/cranksets/campagnolo/crankset-11sp-athena-triple-5-arm-p-t/100002071
> I was looking for *a touring road bike with triple crankset* for my son
> (like the 'Dawes Super Galaxy' - IIRC with Athena groupset - my friend
> bought in 1995), not a triple crankset without a bike attached.
>
> Currently, the best you can get seems to be a gravel bike with 2x11 GRX
> with 34:38 as lowest gear.
>
> Rolf

I'm not so sure that those low gears make much of a difference on a touring bike. It isn't as if you use a 53.

On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 16:07:12 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:11:02 AM UTC-8, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 07.12.2022 um 03:51 schrieb James:
>> > On 7/12/22 04:22, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:45:15 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
>> >>> On 2/12/22 00:29, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> >>>> Am 01.12.2022 um 05:44 schrieb James:
>> >
>> >>>>> A Centaur medium cage rear derailleur can handle up to a 32t sprocket.
>> >>>>> If people can't ride up a hill with a 39/32 gear on a road bike, they
>> >>>>> probably should have a touring bike with a triple.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ...which sadly does not seem to be on sale any more.
>> >>> On sale (cheap) or for sale and in stock? My first google search hit
>> >>> yields a source with stock at just $92 AUD.
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.tradeinn.com/bikeinn/en/campagnolo-centaur-rear-derailleur/136661616/p
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Rolf was speaking of a triple crankset. A friend of mine seems to have
>> >> bought one of the last triples which was sold as a Campy Ekar way back
>> >> when.
>> >
>> > Oh, well, here's an Athena triple for sale.
>> >
>> > https://www.bikechain.com.au/a/cranksets/campagnolo/crankset-11sp-athena-triple-5-arm-p-t/100002071
>> I was looking for *a touring road bike with triple crankset* for my son
>> (like the 'Dawes Super Galaxy' - IIRC with Athena groupset - my friend
>> bought in 1995), not a triple crankset without a bike attached.
>>
>> Currently, the best you can get seems to be a gravel bike with 2x11 GRX
>> with 34:38 as lowest gear.
>>
>> Rolf
>
>I'm not so sure that those low gears make much of a difference on a touring bike. It isn't as if you use a 53.

I do 99% of my riding on a 53.

On 7/12/22 23:10, Rolf Mantel wrote:

> I was looking for *a touring road bike with triple crankset* for my son
> (like the 'Dawes Super Galaxy' - IIRC with Athena groupset - my friend
> bought in 1995), not a triple crankset without a bike attached.

Finding a new bike that comes with Campagnolo equipment is rare these
days. Finding a new touring specific bike with Campagnolo equipment, I
agree, would be like finding teeth from a hen. But it's not impossible
to build one, it seems.

> Currently, the best you can get seems to be a gravel bike with 2x11 GRX
> with 34:38 as lowest gear.

Is that 34 front to 38 rear? I don't know why they would do that. Very
large cassettes makes it more difficult for the rear derailleur. I'd
rather a smaller chain ring and smaller biggest sprocket, with smaller
steps between cogs.

The GRX 2x cranks I just bought have 30/46 chain rings. 32/48 is also
available. Probably others.

--
JS

On 8/12/22 11:07, Tom Kunich wrote:

>
> I'm not so sure that those low gears make much of a difference on a touring bike. It isn't as if you use a 53.

I certainly use the 50t chain ring on my touring bike when it's loaded.

--
JS

On 8/12/22 11:04, Tom Kunich wrote:

> You point out a 5 year old "new" 11 speed Athena (actually a Centaur
> from a year earlier) with 170 mm arms for $370 and you can't feel the
> load of an 11 tooth cog? Obviously they designed the SRAM with a 9
> tooth cog for you.

WTF are you on about?

Best you leave it there.

--
JS

On 12/7/2022 8:06 PM, James wrote:
> On 7/12/22 23:10, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>
>> I was looking for *a touring road bike with triple
>> crankset* for my son (like the 'Dawes Super Galaxy' - IIRC
>> with Athena groupset - my friend bought in 1995), not a
>> triple crankset without a bike attached.
>
> Finding a new bike that comes with Campagnolo equipment is
> rare these days. Finding a new touring specific bike with
> Campagnolo equipment, I agree, would be like finding teeth
> from a hen. But it's not impossible to build one, it seems.
>
>> Currently, the best you can get seems to be a gravel bike
>> with 2x11 GRX with 34:38 as lowest gear.
>
>
> Is that 34 front to 38 rear? I don't know why they would do
> that. Very large cassettes makes it more difficult for the
> rear derailleur. I'd rather a smaller chain ring and
> smaller biggest sprocket, with smaller steps between cogs.
>
> The GRX 2x cranks I just bought have 30/46 chain rings.
> 32/48 is also available. Probably others.

>"large cassettes makes it more difficult for the
> rear derailleur."

That was true once, but modern derailleur geometry, springs
and cage shapes have changed everything. Utterly. The
diminutive 'race length' Campagnolo 12 rears shift a 34t
cassette with wide compact fronts snappily and positively.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 6:09:57 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
> On 8/12/22 11:04, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> > You point out a 5 year old "new" 11 speed Athena (actually a Centaur
> > from a year earlier) with 170 mm arms for $370 and you can't feel the
> > load of an 11 tooth cog? Obviously they designed the SRAM with a 9
> > tooth cog for you.
> WTF are you on about?
>
> Best you leave it there.

That is NOT a newly manufactured triple. It is a rare bird with short arms (172.5 is the largest distributed crank size). Typically Athena parts are not distributed and usually they are from older Centaur models. When Centaur changed back to metal components because the clear coat was easily chipped off of the carb0on levers, the Athena carried these carbon levers until the stock of Centaur carbon levers ran out and then they too changed back to metal levers. The only difference was the decal names.

Using a 9 tooth rear cog means that the chain is turning 180 degrees in 5 chain links. This is acceptable since on mountain bikes they are only used for going downhill. But this tight of a turn has a lot of problems elsewhere - touring bikes which you seem to be implying are inadequate without a 50 tooth makes me wonder what sort of touring you've been doing. Routes flat enough to even allow you to use a 50 aren't that common. I cannot even imagine a touring bike with a 50/9. The drag of making a turn that tight must be phenomenal. I plainly feel the drag of an 11 tooth.

Have you ridden a 50/9 on a touring bike? For that matter have you ridden a 50/11 on anything other than a downhill? There were reasons that small cogs were generally limited to 12,13 or 14 and it wasn't because they couldn't make 11's. Also there is a reason that the Touring triples you buy from Shimano aren't large rings.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 6:26:03 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/7/2022 8:06 PM, James wrote:
> > On 7/12/22 23:10, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >
> >> I was looking for *a touring road bike with triple
> >> crankset* for my son (like the 'Dawes Super Galaxy' - IIRC
> >> with Athena groupset - my friend bought in 1995), not a
> >> triple crankset without a bike attached.
> >
> > Finding a new bike that comes with Campagnolo equipment is
> > rare these days. Finding a new touring specific bike with
> > Campagnolo equipment, I agree, would be like finding teeth
> > from a hen. But it's not impossible to build one, it seems.
> >
> >> Currently, the best you can get seems to be a gravel bike
> >> with 2x11 GRX with 34:38 as lowest gear.
> >
> >
> > Is that 34 front to 38 rear? I don't know why they would do
> > that. Very large cassettes makes it more difficult for the
> > rear derailleur. I'd rather a smaller chain ring and
> > smaller biggest sprocket, with smaller steps between cogs.
> >
> > The GRX 2x cranks I just bought have 30/46 chain rings.
> > 32/48 is also available. Probably others.
>
>
> >"large cassettes makes it more difficult for the
> > rear derailleur."
> That was true once, but modern derailleur geometry, springs
> and cage shapes have changed everything. Utterly. The
> diminutive 'race length' Campagnolo 12 rears shift a 34t
> cassette with wide compact fronts snappily and positively.

I bought a new medium arm 12 speed Campy rear derailleur to see if it could be modified to 11 speed. Not as far as I could tell. It will shift a 34/34.. But the 11 speeds Super Record seems to be very sensitive to cable adjustment. Do you suppose that it might have a slightly bent attachment? By eye it looks aligned. The Aliverti shifts very well with the Chorus group which was new. I looked at the ratchet in the Super Record and there didn't appear to be any significant wear on it. But I don't know how sensitive to wear the 11 speeds are. The 10 speed levers had to be worn almost out before it started jumping gears.

On 12/8/2022 11:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 6:26:03 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 12/7/2022 8:06 PM, James wrote:
>>> On 7/12/22 23:10, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was looking for *a touring road bike with triple
>>>> crankset* for my son (like the 'Dawes Super Galaxy' - IIRC
>>>> with Athena groupset - my friend bought in 1995), not a
>>>> triple crankset without a bike attached.
>>>
>>> Finding a new bike that comes with Campagnolo equipment is
>>> rare these days. Finding a new touring specific bike with
>>> Campagnolo equipment, I agree, would be like finding teeth
>>> from a hen. But it's not impossible to build one, it seems.
>>>
>>>> Currently, the best you can get seems to be a gravel bike
>>>> with 2x11 GRX with 34:38 as lowest gear.
>>>
>>>
>>> Is that 34 front to 38 rear? I don't know why they would do
>>> that. Very large cassettes makes it more difficult for the
>>> rear derailleur. I'd rather a smaller chain ring and
>>> smaller biggest sprocket, with smaller steps between cogs.
>>>
>>> The GRX 2x cranks I just bought have 30/46 chain rings.
>>> 32/48 is also available. Probably others.
>>
>>
>>> "large cassettes makes it more difficult for the
>>> rear derailleur."
>> That was true once, but modern derailleur geometry, springs
>> and cage shapes have changed everything. Utterly. The
>> diminutive 'race length' Campagnolo 12 rears shift a 34t
>> cassette with wide compact fronts snappily and positively.
>
> I bought a new medium arm 12 speed Campy rear derailleur to see if it could be modified to 11 speed. Not as far as I could tell. It will shift a 34/34. But the 11 speeds Super Record seems to be very sensitive to cable adjustment. Do you suppose that it might have a slightly bent attachment? By eye it looks aligned. The Aliverti shifts very well with the Chorus group which was new. I looked at the ratchet in the Super Record and there didn't appear to be any significant wear on it. But I don't know how sensitive to wear the 11 speeds are. The 10 speed levers had to be worn almost out before it started jumping gears.
>

Body geometry and cable travel are different from 10 to 11.
And both very different (especially in capacity) from 12.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 10:24:32 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/8/2022 11:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 6:26:03 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 12/7/2022 8:06 PM, James wrote:
> >>> On 7/12/22 23:10, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I was looking for *a touring road bike with triple
> >>>> crankset* for my son (like the 'Dawes Super Galaxy' - IIRC
> >>>> with Athena groupset - my friend bought in 1995), not a
> >>>> triple crankset without a bike attached.
> >>>
> >>> Finding a new bike that comes with Campagnolo equipment is
> >>> rare these days. Finding a new touring specific bike with
> >>> Campagnolo equipment, I agree, would be like finding teeth
> >>> from a hen. But it's not impossible to build one, it seems.
> >>>
> >>>> Currently, the best you can get seems to be a gravel bike
> >>>> with 2x11 GRX with 34:38 as lowest gear.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is that 34 front to 38 rear? I don't know why they would do
> >>> that. Very large cassettes makes it more difficult for the
> >>> rear derailleur. I'd rather a smaller chain ring and
> >>> smaller biggest sprocket, with smaller steps between cogs.
> >>>
> >>> The GRX 2x cranks I just bought have 30/46 chain rings.
> >>> 32/48 is also available. Probably others.
> >>
> >>
> >>> "large cassettes makes it more difficult for the
> >>> rear derailleur."
> >> That was true once, but modern derailleur geometry, springs
> >> and cage shapes have changed everything. Utterly. The
> >> diminutive 'race length' Campagnolo 12 rears shift a 34t
> >> cassette with wide compact fronts snappily and positively.
> >
> > I bought a new medium arm 12 speed Campy rear derailleur to see if it could be modified to 11 speed. Not as far as I could tell. It will shift a 34/34. But the 11 speeds Super Record seems to be very sensitive to cable adjustment. Do you suppose that it might have a slightly bent attachment? By eye it looks aligned. The Aliverti shifts very well with the Chorus group which was new. I looked at the ratchet in the Super Record and there didn't appear to be any significant wear on it. But I don't know how sensitive to wear the 11 speeds are. The 10 speed levers had to be worn almost out before it started jumping gears.
> >
> Body geometry and cable travel are different from 10 to 11.
> And both very different (especially in capacity) from 12.

I use medium length arms on the 11 speed but it acts a bit funny. As if the cable was too tight. I've been rolling the tension off but so far it hasn't had a noticeable effect. Now, the 10 speed campy will only shift a 28 on the record but that turns out to be just the correct amount. If you have to stop on a hill and start again, the 32 ends up with the cranks dropping too fast to clip in. I ended up having to walk up some hills that I could normally have ridden up because it was early in the season and my heart rate was getting too high. So I stopped for a minute and then couldn't clip in with the 32. I put a 28 on the Basso which weighs about 24 lbs and had no trouble at all getting going again. The Tommasini weighs 20.5 lbs with everything on it. The steering a very fast with the aluminum fork I bought which turned out to have an absurdly heavy steel steering tube. I could probably like a Trek aluminum threadless fork which would probably weigh 2/3rds what this one does and has slower geometry. The carbon fiber fork that was on it has almost identical geometry though.