Thank-you to Mr. Catrike for providing the link to the easy clincher.

https://www.ezclincher.com/

I went ahead and ordered one. Thanks!

pH in Aptos

On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 00:43:38 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
wrote:

>Thank-you to Mr. Catrike for providing the link to the easy clincher.
>
>https://www.ezclincher.com/
>
>I went ahead and ordered one. Thanks!
>
>pH in Aptos

You're welcome.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 4:43:42 PM UTC-8, pH wrote:
> Thank-you to Mr. Catrike for providing the link to the easy clincher.
>
> https://www.ezclincher.com/
>
> I went ahead and ordered one. Thanks!
>
> pH in Aptos

It you're using 28 mm tires you don't need anything more than the standard plastic bicycle tire levers. I have two of those and was using them to put tubeless tires on and I finally gave up. For tubeless they work sort of OK but if you're using clinchers you fill the innertube enough that it fits inside the tire and then starting at the filler pinch the tire into the rim as far as you can get around the diameter. Then you can use the levers and there is so much air in the innertube that it is out of the way and won't pinch when you're using levers. I only lever it in until the remainder of tire is the width of the brake surface and then roll it on by hand but you can lever it all of the way on since the tube is well out of the way.

I really could not get those levers to work well. Though they would probably work well on wider tires like MTB tires.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 4:43:42 PM UTC-8, pH wrote:
> Thank-you to Mr. Catrike for providing the link to the easy clincher.
>
> https://www.ezclincher.com/
>
> I went ahead and ordered one. Thanks!
>
> pH in Aptos

While I have no experience with the EZ Clincher, I've have one of these:
https://marquecycling.com/products/pro

This is a bit too long to fit in my saddle bag but at least it's less awkward to carry in a jersey pocket than the Kool Stop tire bead jack that was the other option available when I was looking to buy. I might have tried the EZ Clincher had I known about it at the time. Then again, perhaps not; the EZ Clincher, as with the Kool Stop jack, requires carrying a set of tire levers with it whereas the Marque product serves as a pair of levers itself.

The Marque is a reincarnation of the venerable VAR RP42500 tire lever which I couldn't find for sale in the US at the time, but the VAR is now available on Amazon (from a Dutch seller) while the Marque seems to be out of stock. The VAR lever is a little shorter, but I'm not sure if it's short enough for my saddle bag.

I was driven to these levers after first installing Continental Grand Prix 4 season tires on early 90's Matrix rims. Panaracer, Specialized, Michelin, Vittoria, Vredstein etc. tires I used over the last few decades on these and other rims were never such a struggle. The experience of installing the Continentals was not one I wanted to repeat by the side of the road. When I got the Marque levers, and did a trial removal/reinstallation of the GP4s, it was much less painful.

The next time I replaced an inner tube on those wheels, I had talc baby powder at hand to dust the tire beads. This time the tires went on easily without needing the bead jack. I don't know whether the kevlar beads had stretched over the months I'd had the tires mounted, or if this was purely a function of the talc, but I haven't been motivated to deliberately investigate any further.

More recently, I had stopped by a bike shop for a new tube when my old tire conveniently decided to blow with a casing failure right there and then. The mechanic who sold me the tube and now also a new tire - again a Continental - was kind enough to install it for me. After struggling a while to mount it (this time on an Ambrosio rim, again circa 1990), he said "to hell with pride" and used a Kool Stop tire jack to get it on.

-Luns

On 12/13/2022 8:09 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 4:43:42 PM UTC-8, pH wrote:
>> Thank-you to Mr. Catrike for providing the link to the easy clincher.
>>
>> https://www.ezclincher.com/
>>
>> I went ahead and ordered one. Thanks!
>>
>> pH in Aptos
>
> While I have no experience with the EZ Clincher, I've have one of these:
> https://marquecycling.com/products/pro
>
> This is a bit too long to fit in my saddle bag but at least it's less awkward to carry in a jersey pocket than the Kool Stop tire bead jack that was the other option available when I was looking to buy. I might have tried the EZ Clincher had I known about it at the time. Then again, perhaps not; the EZ Clincher, as with the Kool Stop jack, requires carrying a set of tire levers with it whereas the Marque product serves as a pair of levers itself.
>
> The Marque is a reincarnation of the venerable VAR RP42500 tire lever which I couldn't find for sale in the US at the time, but the VAR is now available on Amazon (from a Dutch seller) while the Marque seems to be out of stock. The VAR lever is a little shorter, but I'm not sure if it's short enough for my saddle bag.
>
> I was driven to these levers after first installing Continental Grand Prix 4 season tires on early 90's Matrix rims. Panaracer, Specialized, Michelin, Vittoria, Vredstein etc. tires I used over the last few decades on these and other rims were never such a struggle. The experience of installing the Continentals was not one I wanted to repeat by the side of the road. When I got the Marque levers, and did a trial removal/reinstallation of the GP4s, it was much less painful.
>
> The next time I replaced an inner tube on those wheels, I had talc baby powder at hand to dust the tire beads. This time the tires went on easily without needing the bead jack. I don't know whether the kevlar beads had stretched over the months I'd had the tires mounted, or if this was purely a function of the talc, but I haven't been motivated to deliberately investigate any further.
>
> More recently, I had stopped by a bike shop for a new tube when my old tire conveniently decided to blow with a casing failure right there and then. The mechanic who sold me the tube and now also a new tire - again a Continental - was kind enough to install it for me. After struggling a while to mount it (this time on an Ambrosio rim, again circa 1990), he said "to hell with pride" and used a Kool Stop tire jack to get it on.
>
> -Luns
>

Yes, that series of Trek Matrix rims has a deficient
difference from bead seat to center well depth. You are not
alone in discovering that.

Try a mist of spray wax on a spinning rim before mounting.
Not unlike the soapy water for car tire changes, just less
messy.

IMHO tire beads don't 'stretch' so much as folded tires get
rounder as the creases reform under pressure.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/13/2022 6:09 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 4:43:42 PM UTC-8, pH wrote:
>> Thank-you to Mr. Catrike for providing the link to the easy clincher.
>>
>> https://www.ezclincher.com/
>>
>> I went ahead and ordered one. Thanks!
>>
>> pH in Aptos
>
> While I have no experience with the EZ Clincher, I've have one of these:
> https://marquecycling.com/products/pro
>
> This is a bit too long to fit in my saddle bag but at least it's less awkward to carry in a jersey pocket than the Kool Stop tire bead jack that was the other option available when I was looking to buy. I might have tried the EZ Clincher had I known about it at the time. Then again, perhaps not; the EZ Clincher, as with the Kool Stop jack, requires carrying a set of tire levers with it whereas the Marque product serves as a pair of levers itself.

Also <https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804476768112.html> for a
similar tool.

On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 6:09:16 PM UTC-8, Luns Tee wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 4:43:42 PM UTC-8, pH wrote:
> > Thank-you to Mr. Catrike for providing the link to the easy clincher.
> >
> > https://www.ezclincher.com/
> >
> > I went ahead and ordered one. Thanks!
> >
> > pH in Aptos
> While I have no experience with the EZ Clincher, I've have one of these:
> https://marquecycling.com/products/pro
>
> This is a bit too long to fit in my saddle bag but at least it's less awkward to carry in a jersey pocket than the Kool Stop tire bead jack that was the other option available when I was looking to buy. I might have tried the EZ Clincher had I known about it at the time. Then again, perhaps not; the EZ Clincher, as with the Kool Stop jack, requires carrying a set of tire levers with it whereas the Marque product serves as a pair of levers itself.
>
> The Marque is a reincarnation of the venerable VAR RP42500 tire lever which I couldn't find for sale in the US at the time, but the VAR is now available on Amazon (from a Dutch seller) while the Marque seems to be out of stock. The VAR lever is a little shorter, but I'm not sure if it's short enough for my saddle bag.
>
> I was driven to these levers after first installing Continental Grand Prix 4 season tires on early 90's Matrix rims. Panaracer, Specialized, Michelin, Vittoria, Vredstein etc. tires I used over the last few decades on these and other rims were never such a struggle. The experience of installing the Continentals was not one I wanted to repeat by the side of the road. When I got the Marque levers, and did a trial removal/reinstallation of the GP4s, it was much less painful.
>
> The next time I replaced an inner tube on those wheels, I had talc baby powder at hand to dust the tire beads. This time the tires went on easily without needing the bead jack. I don't know whether the kevlar beads had stretched over the months I'd had the tires mounted, or if this was purely a function of the talc, but I haven't been motivated to deliberately investigate any further.
>
> More recently, I had stopped by a bike shop for a new tube when my old tire conveniently decided to blow with a casing failure right there and then. The mechanic who sold me the tube and now also a new tire - again a Continental - was kind enough to install it for me. After struggling a while to mount it (this time on an Ambrosio rim, again circa 1990), he said "to hell with pride" and used a Kool Stop tire jack to get it on.
>
> -Luns

In my experience, changing tires on tubeless rims is painful no matter how you do it or what you use.

On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 5:38:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/13/2022 8:09 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> > While I have no experience with the EZ Clincher, I've have one of these:
> > https://marquecycling.com/products/pro

> > I was driven to these levers after first installing Continental Grand Prix 4 season tires on early 90's Matrix rims. Panaracer, Specialized, Michelin, Vittoria, Vredstein etc. tires I used over the last few decades on these and other rims were never such a struggle. The experience of installing the Continentals was not one I wanted to repeat by the side of the road. When I got the Marque levers, and did a trial removal/reinstallation of the GP4s, it was much less painful.

> > The next time I replaced an inner tube on those wheels, I had talc baby powder at hand to dust the tire beads. This time the tires went on easily without needing the bead jack. I don't know whether the kevlar beads had stretched over the months I'd had the tires mounted, or if this was purely a function of the talc, but I haven't been motivated to deliberately investigate any further.

> > More recently, I had stopped by a bike shop for a new tube when my old tire conveniently decided to blow with a casing failure right there and then. The mechanic who sold me the tube and now also a new tire - again a Continental - was kind enough to install it for me. After struggling a while to mount it (this time on an Ambrosio rim, again circa 1990), he said "to hell with pride" and used a Kool Stop tire jack to get it on.

> Yes, that series of Trek Matrix rims has a deficient
> difference from bead seat to center well depth. You are not
> alone in discovering that.

Thanks for the affirmation Andrew.

I'm not sure this a matter of just the Matrix rims as I don't remember the same rim ever being this bad with other tires before. I don't remember the beads of other tires ever being as grippy as Continental's beads. But there are probably other factors too: I'd generally used 23mm tires in the past, and these were the first 25mm tires I've used on these rims, and the inner tubes were 25-28mm conti tubes rather than smaller/thinner tubes I'd used in the past. Also, it may be that some of the tires I've used before had spent time on other wheels before moving them to these rims, sidestepping the trouble, and those tires that went straight from box to rim were so long ago I'd simply forgotten how bad they were.

I'm finally learning to avoid blaming things on certain factors when they can instead be explained by poor memory.

I remember a time when I'd regularly hear people gloat that they never use tire levers and anybody that needs them is doing something wrong. I presume they've only mounted a limited variety of tire/rim combos. I wonder what would happen to their egos after encountering something like my tire/rim.

> Try a mist of spray wax on a spinning rim before mounting.
> Not unlike the soapy water for car tire changes, just less
> messy.

I would worry about then having to clean up the wax from the rims' braking surfaces afterwards. I'd probably be wondering to myself how much wax ended up infused into the brake pads long after the rims had been scrubbed clean.. Talc seems to have worked well enough for me and I had it at hand, which I couldn't say for spray wax. It was easy enough to wipe the rims off and convince myself the talc wasn't doing the same thing to the brake pads as what wax might.

> IMHO tire beads don't 'stretch' so much as folded tires get
> rounder as the creases reform under pressure.

I imagine you're right. With the tire fresh out of the box, pinching the beads together takes some force as the tire tries to stay as flat as it was in the box. After being mounted long enough to take a set in their final shape, it's a lot easier to get the beads into the rim centre well when they're no longer trying to be a box width apart.

-Luns

On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 9:20:18 AM UTC-8, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 6:09:16 PM UTC-8, Luns Tee wrote:
> > While I have no experience with the EZ Clincher, I have one of these:
> > https://marquecycling.com/products/pro

> In my experience, changing tires on tubeless rims is painful no matter how you do it or what you use.

I have no experience with tubeless, but from my experience with this tire jack - it was night and day - I'd have to imagine that it or comparable jacks would help with tubeless. In fact branding differences aside, Shimano sells the identical product specifically for tubeless usage.

https://www.pro-bikegear.com/global/tools-maintenance/tools/tire-levers-tubeless

I suspect the PRO branding actually indicates a product line of items PROcured by Shimano from other suppliers to distribute, and it the actual lever is rebranded both for them and for Marque by the real manufacturer. Andy, any insights on PRO?

I'm guessing this is the original manufacturer, having a video up that's two years older than either Shimano or Marque, though I wouldn't rule out it being yet another re-brand:
https://www.superbiketool.com/en/product/detail/Tube_Tire_tools/TB_TL08

Back to your point of difficulties even using bead jacks, technique matters and I haven't really seen the finer points discussed much. With regular tire levers, you shove them between the tire and face of the rim, then pivot 180 degrees on the lip of the rim to bring the tire above and over. This is necessarily some distance away from where the bead is crossing the rim as its impossible to get the lever under closer to the crossing.
Attacking the tire at a similar spot with my tire jack didn't work that well as it takes a lot of tension to get much lift - the same as with regular tire levers..

What I found works much better was to lift in small nibbles: attack it very close to where the bead is crossing over the edge of the rim, closer than is possible to access with regular tire levers. The idea is not so much to lift more bead up to the edge of the rim, but to more raise the bead that's already over the edge to relieve friction and let bead tension pull it inside. You can do many such small lifts in quick succession and before you know it, the tire is on.

-Luns

On 12/15/2022 4:09 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 9:20:18 AM UTC-8, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 6:09:16 PM UTC-8, Luns Tee wrote:
>>> While I have no experience with the EZ Clincher, I have one of these:
>>> https://marquecycling.com/products/pro
>
>> In my experience, changing tires on tubeless rims is painful no matter how you do it or what you use.
>
> I have no experience with tubeless, but from my experience with this tire jack - it was night and day - I'd have to imagine that it or comparable jacks would help with tubeless. In fact branding differences aside, Shimano sells the identical product specifically for tubeless usage.
>
> https://www.pro-bikegear.com/global/tools-maintenance/tools/tire-levers-tubeless
>
> I suspect the PRO branding actually indicates a product line of items PROcured by Shimano from other suppliers to distribute, and it the actual lever is rebranded both for them and for Marque by the real manufacturer. Andy, any insights on PRO?
>
> I'm guessing this is the original manufacturer, having a video up that's two years older than either Shimano or Marque, though I wouldn't rule out it being yet another re-brand:
> https://www.superbiketool.com/en/product/detail/Tube_Tire_tools/TB_TL08
>
> Back to your point of difficulties even using bead jacks, technique matters and I haven't really seen the finer points discussed much. With regular tire levers, you shove them between the tire and face of the rim, then pivot 180 degrees on the lip of the rim to bring the tire above and over. This is necessarily some distance away from where the bead is crossing the rim as its impossible to get the lever under closer to the crossing.
> Attacking the tire at a similar spot with my tire jack didn't work that well as it takes a lot of tension to get much lift - the same as with regular tire levers..
>
> What I found works much better was to lift in small nibbles: attack it very close to where the bead is crossing over the edge of the rim, closer than is possible to access with regular tire levers. The idea is not so much to lift more bead up to the edge of the rim, but to more raise the bead that's already over the edge to relieve friction and let bead tension pull it inside. You can do many such small lifts in quick succession and before you know it, the tire is on.
>
> -Luns
>

I don't know but Super B tools are good ROC quality we sell
some here, very happy.

The design looks like a modern version of the classic VAR
which AFAIK is no longer produced.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 5:09:52 p.m. UTC-5, Luns Tee wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 9:20:18 AM UTC-8, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 6:09:16 PM UTC-8, Luns Tee wrote:
> > > While I have no experience with the EZ Clincher, I have one of these:
> > > https://marquecycling.com/products/pro
> > In my experience, changing tires on tubeless rims is painful no matter how you do it or what you use.
> I have no experience with tubeless, but from my experience with this tire jack - it was night and day - I'd have to imagine that it or comparable jacks would help with tubeless. In fact branding differences aside, Shimano sells the identical product specifically for tubeless usage.
>
> https://www.pro-bikegear.com/global/tools-maintenance/tools/tire-levers-tubeless
>
> I suspect the PRO branding actually indicates a product line of items PROcured by Shimano from other suppliers to distribute, and it the actual lever is rebranded both for them and for Marque by the real manufacturer. Andy, any insights on PRO?
>
> I'm guessing this is the original manufacturer, having a video up that's two years older than either Shimano or Marque, though I wouldn't rule out it being yet another re-brand:
> https://www.superbiketool.com/en/product/detail/Tube_Tire_tools/TB_TL08
>
> Back to your point of difficulties even using bead jacks, technique matters and I haven't really seen the finer points discussed much. With regular tire levers, you shove them between the tire and face of the rim, then pivot 180 degrees on the lip of the rim to bring the tire above and over. This is necessarily some distance away from where the bead is crossing the rim as its impossible to get the lever under closer to the crossing.
> Attacking the tire at a similar spot with my tire jack didn't work that well as it takes a lot of tension to get much lift - the same as with regular tire levers..
>
> What I found works much better was to lift in small nibbles: attack it very close to where the bead is crossing over the edge of the rim, closer than is possible to access with regular tire levers. The idea is not so much to lift more bead up to the edge of the rim, but to more raise the bead that's already over the edge to relieve friction and let bead tension pull it inside. You can do many such small lifts in quick succession and before you know it, the tire is on.
>
> -Luns

When you have such a hard to mount tire, what do you use to get it off again?

Cheers