All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.

So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?

On 12/17/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.
>
> So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
>

No, not hot enough.
But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.

I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
left much more dirt from acetylene.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 12:19:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/17/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.
> >
> > So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
> >
> No, not hot enough.
> But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
>
> I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
> crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
> left much more dirt from acetylene.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I guess I'll either have to buy a new brazing setup or find someone with a setup I can use. Perhaps my older brother has my old tanks and torch in his garage.

On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 12:19:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 12/17/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.
> > >
> > > So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
> > >
> > No, not hot enough.
> > But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
> >
> > I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
> > crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
> > left much more dirt from acetylene.
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> I guess I'll either have to buy a new brazing setup or find someone with a setup I can use. Perhaps my older brother has my old tanks and torch in his garage.

I was told that while copper brazing is not possible with propane torches that they make a propane torch specifically for silver brazing and the sell the silver braze and flux on Amazon! My experience with silver brazing is that it appears to have all of the strength necessary to braze tube into lugs but it occurs at a lower temperature.

Would you disagree with that?

On 12/26/2022 11:11 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 12:19:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 12/17/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.
>>>>
>>>> So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
>>>>
>>> No, not hot enough.
>>> But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
>>>
>>> I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
>>> crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
>>> left much more dirt from acetylene.
>>>

>> I guess I'll either have to buy a new brazing setup or find someone with a setup I can use. Perhaps my older brother has my old tanks and torch in his garage.
>
> I was told that while copper brazing is not possible with propane torches that they make a propane torch specifically for silver brazing and the sell the silver braze and flux on Amazon! My experience with silver brazing is that it appears to have all of the strength necessary to braze tube into lugs but it occurs at a lower temperature.
>
> Would you disagree with that?

How could I? I have no idea.

There are a wide range of silver braze materials at various
temperatures and characteristics (some of which are
unsuitable to our high alloy bicycle materials).

A handheld tank of propane with a torch tip screwed on

https://www.brandnew.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/PropaneTorch-JumboFlame-700x700.jpg

has a working temperature of roughly 1100F which is marginal
for silver work. I use one for lead fill and it's great for
that.

Oxy propane which we use for silver work has a peak of
2500F. We use it with a 1250F silver alloy filler.

Copper braze filler isn't used for bicycles generally. I've
only seen it in induction or oven brazing on an industrial
scale. Generally 1800F to 1950F and no advantages for
bicycles over the usual free flowing bronze fillers which
wet nicely at lower temperatures (mostly 1650F to 1750F).

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 9:43:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/26/2022 11:11 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 12:19:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 12/17/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.
> >>>>
> >>>> So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
> >>>>
> >>> No, not hot enough.
> >>> But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
> >>>
> >>> I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
> >>> crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
> >>> left much more dirt from acetylene.
> >>>
> >> I guess I'll either have to buy a new brazing setup or find someone with a setup I can use. Perhaps my older brother has my old tanks and torch in his garage.
> >
> > I was told that while copper brazing is not possible with propane torches that they make a propane torch specifically for silver brazing and the sell the silver braze and flux on Amazon! My experience with silver brazing is that it appears to have all of the strength necessary to braze tube into lugs but it occurs at a lower temperature.
> >
> > Would you disagree with that?
> How could I? I have no idea.
>
> There are a wide range of silver braze materials at various
> temperatures and characteristics (some of which are
> unsuitable to our high alloy bicycle materials).
>
> A handheld tank of propane with a torch tip screwed on
>
> https://www.brandnew.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/PropaneTorch-JumboFlame-700x700.jpg
>
> has a working temperature of roughly 1100F which is marginal
> for silver work. I use one for lead fill and it's great for
> that.
>
> Oxy propane which we use for silver work has a peak of
> 2500F. We use it with a 1250F silver alloy filler.
>
> Copper braze filler isn't used for bicycles generally. I've
> only seen it in induction or oven brazing on an industrial
> scale. Generally 1800F to 1950F and no advantages for
> bicycles over the usual free flowing bronze fillers which
> wet nicely at lower temperatures (mostly 1650F to 1750F).
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Looking it up some more it isn't propane they are using but MAPP gas which has something other than propane in it to get a far hotter flame. This stuff is pretty expensive so it wouldn't be worth doing any extensive silver brazing with it.

On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 10:33:57 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Looking it up some more it isn't propane they are using but MAPP gas
>which has something other than propane in it to get a far hotter
>flame. This stuff is pretty expensive so it wouldn't be worth doing
>any extensive silver brazing with it.

You claim to be worth nearly $2 million and you're worrying about the
cost of a bottle of MAPP gas? Two bottles are only about $40.

Note that MAPP gas changed formulation in 2008. The original was
better:
<https://www.amazon.com/BLUEFIRE-Cylinder-Variation-Quantity-Available/dp/B07NC5XC8H/>
Read the sellers bullet points.

I suggest you go with oxygen-acetylene instead of MAPP gas, unless
you're trying to go with the cheapest. If you don't have any
equipment (regulators, wrench, hoses, goggles, welding torches,
flashback arrestors, flux, tip cleaner, striker, welding rod, gloves,
etc), oxy-acetylene could become expensive. If you don't know how to
gas weld, which seems to be the case, you'll need to practice before
trashing the bicycle frame, which can consume considerable gas.

Something like these:
<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=oxygen+acetylene+torch+kit>
Figure on about $300 to $500 for everything from China including tanks
and cart.

If you're worried about consumables, silver brazing rod for steel is
not cheap:
<https://www.mcmaster.com/silver-brazing-rods/for-joining~steel/>

12/25/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/njA7DYpUtww/m/uTnjTb6DAwAJ>
"I'm worth nearly two million now and can live almost entirely on my
social security."

Good luck and try not to burn down the garage or house.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 12/26/2022 3:00 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 10:33:57 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking it up some more it isn't propane they are using but MAPP gas
>> which has something other than propane in it to get a far hotter
>> flame. This stuff is pretty expensive so it wouldn't be worth doing
>> any extensive silver brazing with it.
>
> You claim to be worth nearly $2 million and you're worrying about the
> cost of a bottle of MAPP gas? Two bottles are only about $40.
>
> Note that MAPP gas changed formulation in 2008. The original was
> better:
> <https://www.amazon.com/BLUEFIRE-Cylinder-Variation-Quantity-Available/dp/B07NC5XC8H/>
> Read the sellers bullet points.
>
> I suggest you go with oxygen-acetylene instead of MAPP gas, unless
> you're trying to go with the cheapest. If you don't have any
> equipment (regulators, wrench, hoses, goggles, welding torches,
> flashback arrestors, flux, tip cleaner, striker, welding rod, gloves,
> etc), oxy-acetylene could become expensive. If you don't know how to
> gas weld, which seems to be the case, you'll need to practice before
> trashing the bicycle frame, which can consume considerable gas.
>
> Something like these:
> <https://www.amazon.com/s?k=oxygen+acetylene+torch+kit>
> Figure on about $300 to $500 for everything from China including tanks
> and cart.

I wonder if it's possible to rent oxy-acetylene sets. I have my own, so
I've never looked into it. But I suspect renting, if possible, would
make sense for people who seldom use it.

Hmm. OK, locally, Rental Corral does rent "Welders - electric and gas."
But I'll bet the liability release is really something!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/26/2022 12:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 9:43:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 12/26/2022 11:11 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 12:19:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 12/17/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
>>>>>>
>>>>> No, not hot enough.
>>>>> But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
>>>>> crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
>>>>> left much more dirt from acetylene.
>>>>>
>>>> I guess I'll either have to buy a new brazing setup or find someone with a setup I can use. Perhaps my older brother has my old tanks and torch in his garage.
>>>
>>> I was told that while copper brazing is not possible with propane torches that they make a propane torch specifically for silver brazing and the sell the silver braze and flux on Amazon! My experience with silver brazing is that it appears to have all of the strength necessary to braze tube into lugs but it occurs at a lower temperature.
>>>
>>> Would you disagree with that?
>> How could I? I have no idea.
>>
>> There are a wide range of silver braze materials at various
>> temperatures and characteristics (some of which are
>> unsuitable to our high alloy bicycle materials).
>>
>> A handheld tank of propane with a torch tip screwed on
>>
>> https://www.brandnew.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/PropaneTorch-JumboFlame-700x700.jpg
>>
>> has a working temperature of roughly 1100F which is marginal
>> for silver work. I use one for lead fill and it's great for
>> that.
>>
>> Oxy propane which we use for silver work has a peak of
>> 2500F. We use it with a 1250F silver alloy filler.
>>
>> Copper braze filler isn't used for bicycles generally. I've
>> only seen it in induction or oven brazing on an industrial
>> scale. Generally 1800F to 1950F and no advantages for
>> bicycles over the usual free flowing bronze fillers which
>> wet nicely at lower temperatures (mostly 1650F to 1750F).
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Looking it up some more it isn't propane they are using but MAPP gas which has something other than propane in it to get a far hotter flame. This stuff is pretty expensive so it wouldn't be worth doing any extensive silver brazing with it.
>

I worked in a frame shop which used oxy-MAPP. At that time
(1976) it was cheaper than acetylene but it's a dirty fuel.
Oxy propane is amazingly clean. Which matters for joint
quality and time spent in cleanup. You can buy a tank of
propane at your local service station ($25~35) which is
handy and a home hobby frame project won't use all that much
of it.

You'll need regulators hoses and a torch but hose sets are
not deathly expensive either.
new:
https://www.weldersupply.com/P/1175/PerformerMediumDutyOutfi

I don't know about small oxygen tanks but given the dramatic
rise in volume for medical purposes I would assume your
basic oxygen tank is affordable.

A quick web search shows a size E oxygen tank[1] can be
yours new for $60~75. I'd ask at your local welding and gas
supply about rental and refill prices before buying one.

Before you commit to anything take a few minute son craigslist:
https://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/tls/d/utica-oxygen-acetylene-welding-brazing/7562900645.html

[1] These are the little ones you see strapped next to old
people on their electric wheelchairs in the grocery. We use
a standard size S which is about 4 feet tall; you don't need
anything like that.

p.s. Medical oxygen and welding oxygen aren't different for
your purposes. Only difference is sterile packaging.

p.p.s You can use an acetylene regulator for propane with a
brass tank adapter. No safety issues, just a different tank
thread size.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 14:12:33 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 12/26/2022 12:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 9:43:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 12/26/2022 11:11 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 12:19:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/17/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, not hot enough.
>>>>>> But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
>>>>>> crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
>>>>>> left much more dirt from acetylene.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I'll either have to buy a new brazing setup or find someone with a setup I can use. Perhaps my older brother has my old tanks and torch in his garage.
>>>>
>>>> I was told that while copper brazing is not possible with propane torches that they make a propane torch specifically for silver brazing and the sell the silver braze and flux on Amazon! My experience with silver brazing is that it appears to have all of the strength necessary to braze tube into lugs but it occurs at a lower temperature.
>>>>
>>>> Would you disagree with that?
>>> How could I? I have no idea.
>>>
>>> There are a wide range of silver braze materials at various
>>> temperatures and characteristics (some of which are
>>> unsuitable to our high alloy bicycle materials).
>>>
>>> A handheld tank of propane with a torch tip screwed on
>>>
>>> https://www.brandnew.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/PropaneTorch-JumboFlame-700x700.jpg
>>>
>>> has a working temperature of roughly 1100F which is marginal
>>> for silver work. I use one for lead fill and it's great for
>>> that.
>>>
>>> Oxy propane which we use for silver work has a peak of
>>> 2500F. We use it with a 1250F silver alloy filler.
>>>
>>> Copper braze filler isn't used for bicycles generally. I've
>>> only seen it in induction or oven brazing on an industrial
>>> scale. Generally 1800F to 1950F and no advantages for
>>> bicycles over the usual free flowing bronze fillers which
>>> wet nicely at lower temperatures (mostly 1650F to 1750F).
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> Looking it up some more it isn't propane they are using but MAPP gas which has something other than propane in it to get a far hotter flame. This stuff is pretty expensive so it wouldn't be worth doing any extensive silver brazing with it.
>>
>
>I worked in a frame shop which used oxy-MAPP. At that time
>(1976) it was cheaper than acetylene but it's a dirty fuel.
>Oxy propane is amazingly clean. Which matters for joint
>quality and time spent in cleanup. You can buy a tank of
>propane at your local service station ($25~35) which is
>handy and a home hobby frame project won't use all that much
>of it.
>
>You'll need regulators hoses and a torch but hose sets are
>not deathly expensive either.
>new:
>https://www.weldersupply.com/P/1175/PerformerMediumDutyOutfi
>
>I don't know about small oxygen tanks but given the dramatic
>rise in volume for medical purposes I would assume your
>basic oxygen tank is affordable.
>
>A quick web search shows a size E oxygen tank[1] can be
>yours new for $60~75. I'd ask at your local welding and gas
>supply about rental and refill prices before buying one.
>
>Before you commit to anything take a few minute son craigslist:
>https://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/tls/d/utica-oxygen-acetylene-welding-brazing/7562900645.html
>
>[1] These are the little ones you see strapped next to old
>people on their electric wheelchairs in the grocery. We use
>a standard size S which is about 4 feet tall; you don't need
>anything like that.
>
>p.s. Medical oxygen and welding oxygen aren't different for
>your purposes. Only difference is sterile packaging.
>
>p.p.s You can use an acetylene regulator for propane with a
>brass tank adapter. No safety issues, just a different tank
>thread size.

I use the standard "small" oxygen tank, which, as you say is perhaps 4
feet high. But here anyway, you don't buy a tank. You initially pay
for the tank and oxygen and from then on you take it in and trade it
for a full tank and pay only for the oxygen. If you don't want to use
oxygen any more you take the tank back and they refund your initial
payment for the tank.

The reference to "dirt" from an acetylene - oxygen torch seems a bit
odd, to say the least, as anyone that ever learned to weld with an
oxy-acetylene setup knows that you normally weld with a "neutral"
flame which leaves no crud at all.
Having said that I normally use an oxy-propane setup for brazing as I
already had a couple of small propane, actually cooking gas, tanks so
I didn't have to rent a acetylene tank and, I think, the cooking gas
is cheaper.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 12:12:36 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/26/2022 12:33 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 9:43:05 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 12/26/2022 11:11 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 12:19:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 12/17/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> No, not hot enough.
> >>>>> But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
> >>>>> crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
> >>>>> left much more dirt from acetylene.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I guess I'll either have to buy a new brazing setup or find someone with a setup I can use. Perhaps my older brother has my old tanks and torch in his garage.
> >>>
> >>> I was told that while copper brazing is not possible with propane torches that they make a propane torch specifically for silver brazing and the sell the silver braze and flux on Amazon! My experience with silver brazing is that it appears to have all of the strength necessary to braze tube into lugs but it occurs at a lower temperature.
> >>>
> >>> Would you disagree with that?
> >> How could I? I have no idea.
> >>
> >> There are a wide range of silver braze materials at various
> >> temperatures and characteristics (some of which are
> >> unsuitable to our high alloy bicycle materials).
> >>
> >> A handheld tank of propane with a torch tip screwed on
> >>
> >> https://www.brandnew.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/PropaneTorch-JumboFlame-700x700.jpg
> >>
> >> has a working temperature of roughly 1100F which is marginal
> >> for silver work. I use one for lead fill and it's great for
> >> that.
> >>
> >> Oxy propane which we use for silver work has a peak of
> >> 2500F. We use it with a 1250F silver alloy filler.
> >>
> >> Copper braze filler isn't used for bicycles generally. I've
> >> only seen it in induction or oven brazing on an industrial
> >> scale. Generally 1800F to 1950F and no advantages for
> >> bicycles over the usual free flowing bronze fillers which
> >> wet nicely at lower temperatures (mostly 1650F to 1750F).
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > Looking it up some more it isn't propane they are using but MAPP gas which has something other than propane in it to get a far hotter flame. This stuff is pretty expensive so it wouldn't be worth doing any extensive silver brazing with it.
> >
> I worked in a frame shop which used oxy-MAPP. At that time
> (1976) it was cheaper than acetylene but it's a dirty fuel.
> Oxy propane is amazingly clean. Which matters for joint
> quality and time spent in cleanup. You can buy a tank of
> propane at your local service station ($25~35) which is
> handy and a home hobby frame project won't use all that much
> of it.
>
> You'll need regulators hoses and a torch but hose sets are
> not deathly expensive either.
> new:
> https://www.weldersupply.com/P/1175/PerformerMediumDutyOutfi
>
> I don't know about small oxygen tanks but given the dramatic
> rise in volume for medical purposes I would assume your
> basic oxygen tank is affordable.
>
> A quick web search shows a size E oxygen tank[1] can be
> yours new for $60~75. I'd ask at your local welding and gas
> supply about rental and refill prices before buying one.
>
> Before you commit to anything take a few minute son craigslist:
> https://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/tls/d/utica-oxygen-acetylene-welding-brazing/7562900645.html
>
> [1] These are the little ones you see strapped next to old
> people on their electric wheelchairs in the grocery. We use
> a standard size S which is about 4 feet tall; you don't need
> anything like that.
>
> p.s. Medical oxygen and welding oxygen aren't different for
> your purposes. Only difference is sterile packaging.
>
> p.p.s You can use an acetylene regulator for propane with a
> brass tank adapter. No safety issues, just a different tank
> thread size.

Since the kids gave me a propane BBQ, I always have a tank or two of unused propane around. Especially in the summer. I suppose I could buy regulators and hoses and a torch, but the idea was to eliminate as much of that as possible. I already have a lot of room absorbed by tools and such. If I do decide to build a fork, that is all it would be used for. I an not going to build a frame when there are so many good one's around for a song.

On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:11:10 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 2:06:01 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 12:19:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 12/17/2022 1:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > All of my brazing has been done with regular welding torches. But I may want to do some repairs on steel frames.
>> > >
>> > > So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
>> > >
>> > No, not hot enough.
>> > But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
>> >
>> > I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
>> > crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
>> > left much more dirt from acetylene.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Andrew Muzi
>> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> I guess I'll either have to buy a new brazing setup or find someone with a setup I can use. Perhaps my older brother has my old tanks and torch in his garage.
>
>I was told that while copper brazing is not possible with propane torches that they make a propane torch specifically for silver brazing and the sell the silver braze and flux on Amazon! My experience with silver brazing is that it appears to have all of the strength necessary to braze tube into lugs but it occurs at a lower temperature.
>
>Would you disagree with that?

Strength of a brazed "lug" joint is largely dependent on the length of
the tub insertion into the lug and the clearance between the tube and
the lug.

In August 1982 "Bicycling Magazine's Newsletter for the Technical
Enthusiast" published a multi part dissertation on brazing that states
in part that "You'll notice that the tensile strength of the joint is
100,000 psi or greater for clearances between 0.001-0.005 inch".

Note that brass brazing is possible with oxygen-propane. there are
even you-tube movies on doing this.

Another note is that silver brazing material is available in a
multitude of types, temperatures and strengths. If I were a beginner
at this I would consult with someone (Andrew?) who has experience in
doing this.
--
Cheers,

John B.

After having done a lot of brazing over the years, I am now trying to learn how to MIG weld thin tubes and sheet metal panels by using a shielding gas and flux-less wire, because flux is exothermic and adds too much heat to the work. My test welds while using CO2 as the gas weren't too great, so I'm going to try 75% Argon/25% CO2 instead. I'm hoping that the Argon mix gas will work quite a bit better than the straight CO2.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:34:33 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
> After having done a lot of brazing over the years, I am now trying to learn how to MIG weld thin tubes and sheet metal panels by using a shielding gas and flux-less wire, because flux is exothermic and adds too much heat to the work. My test welds while using CO2 as the gas weren't too great, so I'm going to try 75% Argon/25% CO2 instead. I'm hoping that the Argon mix gas will work quite a bit better than the straight CO2.
I would like to be kept informed.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022 07:34:31 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
<retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:

>After having done a lot of brazing over the years, I am now trying to learn how to MIG weld thin tubes and sheet metal panels by using a shielding gas and flux-less wire, because flux is exothermic and adds too much heat to the work. My test welds while using CO2 as the gas weren't too great, so I'm going to try 75% Argon/25% CO2 instead. I'm hoping that the Argon mix gas will work quite a bit better than the straight CO2.

You might want to read
https://weldguru.com/best-gas-for-mig-welding/

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022 07:34:31 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
<retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:

>After having done a lot of brazing over the years, I am now trying to learn how to MIG weld thin tubes and sheet metal panels by using a shielding gas and flux-less wire, because flux is exothermic and adds too much heat to the work. My test welds while using CO2 as the gas weren't too great, so I'm going to try 75% Argon/25% CO2 instead. I'm hoping that the Argon mix gas will work quite a bit better than the straight CO2.

What grade of CO2 did you use for testing?
<https://www.co2meter.com/blogs/news/co2-purity-grade-oxygen-purity-grade-charts>
"Industrial applications like welding utilize 99.5% pure CO2. In
welding, higher purity CO2 produces better welds because the process
is heating less impurities in the process. Those impurities have been
found to produce less stable welds."

When I tried MIG welding using carbonation gas from a soda pop
machine, the results were marginal. It wasn't weld contamination that
gave me trouble but rather the tiny amount of water in the gas would
explode and produce a porous weld. Water expands about 800x when
vaporized, so you can imagine the mess it created. I also had a
difficult time maintaining the arc. Other than looking like a sponge
under a microscope, the weld seemed acceptable. I didn't try a purer
grade of CO2 because none was available at the time.

"MIG Welding with 100% Co2 Shielding Gas"
<https://weldguru.com/mig-welding-with-100-co2/>
See section under "consumables".

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022 16:15:22 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Dec 2022 07:34:31 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
><retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>After having done a lot of brazing over the years, I am now trying to learn how to MIG weld thin tubes and sheet metal panels by using a shielding gas and flux-less wire, because flux is exothermic and adds too much heat to the work. My test welds while using CO2 as the gas weren't too great, so I'm going to try 75% Argon/25% CO2 instead. I'm hoping that the Argon mix gas will work quite a bit better than the straight CO2.
>
>What grade of CO2 did you use for testing?
><https://www.co2meter.com/blogs/news/co2-purity-grade-oxygen-purity-grade-charts>
>"Industrial applications like welding utilize 99.5% pure CO2. In
>welding, higher purity CO2 produces better welds because the process
>is heating less impurities in the process. Those impurities have been
>found to produce less stable welds."
>
>When I tried MIG welding using carbonation gas from a soda pop
>machine, the results were marginal. It wasn't weld contamination that
>gave me trouble but rather the tiny amount of water in the gas would
>explode and produce a porous weld. Water expands about 800x when
>vaporized, so you can imagine the mess it created. I also had a
>difficult time maintaining the arc. Other than looking like a sponge
>under a microscope, the weld seemed acceptable. I didn't try a purer
>grade of CO2 because none was available at the time.
>
>"MIG Welding with 100% Co2 Shielding Gas"
><https://weldguru.com/mig-welding-with-100-co2/>
>See section under "consumables".

err... the usual test of a weld is to bend the test strips double
parallel with the weld bead to see whether the weld is as strong as
the parent metal :-)

And yes, in my younger days I was a USAF certified welder TIG (steel,
aluminum) and Stick (horizontal and vertical).
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 9:19:00 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:34:33 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
> > After having done a lot of brazing over the years, I am now trying to learn how to MIG weld thin tubes and sheet metal panels by using a shielding gas and flux-less wire, because flux is exothermic and adds too much heat to the work. My test welds while using CO2 as the gas weren't too great, so I'm going to try 75% Argon/25% CO2 instead. I'm hoping that the Argon mix gas will work quite a bit better than the straight CO2.
> I would like to be kept informed.

I should add that you're talking about MIG welding which implies metals other than steel. In order to maintain the strength of steel you don't want to overheat it meaning that brazing is an acceptable means of dealing with it if possible. The fork I intend to build has lugs and therefore, is a good candidate for brazing. At the moment I am looking in Craigslist for a cheap brazing rig. But prices of everything have gone up faster than gold.

On 12/28/2022 1:49 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 9:19:00 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:34:33 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
>>> After having done a lot of brazing over the years, I am now trying to learn how to MIG weld thin tubes and sheet metal panels by using a shielding gas and flux-less wire, because flux is exothermic and adds too much heat to the work. My test welds while using CO2 as the gas weren't too great, so I'm going to try 75% Argon/25% CO2 instead. I'm hoping that the Argon mix gas will work quite a bit better than the straight CO2.
>> I would like to be kept informed.
>
> I should add that you're talking about MIG welding which implies metals other than steel. In order to maintain the strength of steel you don't want to overheat it meaning that brazing is an acceptable means of dealing with it if possible. The fork I intend to build has lugs and therefore, is a good candidate for brazing. At the moment I am looking in Craigslist for a cheap brazing rig. But prices of everything have gone up faster than gold.
>

Uh, not at all-

https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/mig-welding-the-basics-for-mild-steel

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 14:39:00 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 12/28/2022 1:49 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 9:19:00 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:34:33 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
>>>> After having done a lot of brazing over the years, I am now trying to learn how to MIG weld thin tubes and sheet metal panels by using a shielding gas and flux-less wire, because flux is exothermic and adds too much heat to the work. My test welds while using CO2 as the gas weren't too great, so I'm going to try 75% Argon/25% CO2 instead. I'm hoping that the Argon mix gas will work quite a bit better than the straight CO2.
>>> I would like to be kept informed.
>>
>> I should add that you're talking about MIG welding which implies metals other than steel. In order to maintain the strength of steel you don't want to overheat it meaning that brazing is an acceptable means of dealing with it if possible. The fork I intend to build has lugs and therefore, is a good candidate for brazing. At the moment I am looking in Craigslist for a cheap brazing rig. But prices of everything have gone up faster than gold.
>>
>
>Uh, not at all-
>
>https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/mig-welding-the-basics-for-mild-steel

The normal certification schedule for both stick and TIG welders when
I certified, and it is probably the same today, included stick welding
of steel and TIG welding of steel and aluminum.

Some people appear to have rather bizarre notions.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2022 11:49:11 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 9:19:00 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:34:33 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
>> > After having done a lot of brazing over the years, I am now trying to learn how to MIG weld thin tubes and sheet metal panels by using a shielding gas and flux-less wire, because flux is exothermic and adds too much heat to the work. My test welds while using CO2 as the gas weren't too great, so I'm going to try 75% Argon/25% CO2 instead. I'm hoping that the Argon mix gas will work quite a bit better than the straight CO2.
>> I would like to be kept informed.
>
>I should add that you're talking about MIG welding which implies metals other than steel. In order to maintain the strength of steel you don't want to overheat it meaning that brazing is an acceptable means of dealing with it if possible. The fork I intend to build has lugs and therefore, is a good candidate for brazing. At the moment I am looking in Craigslist for a cheap brazing rig. But prices of everything have gone up faster than gold.

Really Tommy? Steel shouldn't be heated? Strange then that so many
"steel" things are welded, isn't it? Or is it like "Communism" and
"lefties" you simply don't know what "steel" is?
--
Cheers,

John B.

> >I should add that you're talking about MIG welding which implies metals other than steel. In order to maintain the strength of steel you don't want to overheat it meaning that brazing is an acceptable means of dealing with it if possible. The fork I intend to build has lugs and therefore, is a good candidate for brazing. At the moment I am looking in Craigslist for a cheap brazing rig. But prices of everything have gone up faster than gold.
> Really Tommy? Steel shouldn't be heated? Strange then that so many
> "steel" things are welded, isn't it? Or is it like "Communism" and
> "lefties" you simply don't know what "steel" is?

Is this not why bicycles were until recently brazed, and this in turn why lugged? Because brazing is lower temp and thus -hopefully- is completed without taking the temper out of the heat-treated tubes?
I would suspect that it's not a concern w.r.t. dropouts, or not nearly as bad... cuz of their size and shape, they perhaps a)don't need to be hardened, and b)don't heat up nearly as fast as thin walls of tubing?

> > So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
> >
> No, not hot enough.
> But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
>
> I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
> crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
> left much more dirt from acetylene.

What I don't understand is how u get the shit to stick! I took an old bike frame, don't remember how i prepped the joint, took a thin brass rod and used a #0 tip, probably, using oxy-acet, heated the work , heated the rod and dipped in in a tin of flux, and ... could not get the brass to stick to the steel, it just ran right off.
I am pretty sure I successfully brazed in HS shop, and definitely sure I successfully silver-soldered. What I was using looked like brass to me and failed the magnet test. Was i using the wrong rod, the wrong flux, or did not prep correctly the area of the old frame?

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 10:50:33 PM UTC-5, doug....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > So my question is: Can you braze with a regular propane torch?
> > >
> > No, not hot enough.
> > But propane-oxygen is an excellent clean flame for brazing.
> >
> > I prefer it for filling lugs and big castings such as BB and
> > crowns, where the time needed to properly fill would have
> > left much more dirt from acetylene.
> What I don't understand is how u get the shit to stick! I took an old bike frame, don't remember how i prepped the joint, took a thin brass rod and used a #0 tip, probably, using oxy-acet, heated the work , heated the rod and dipped in in a tin of flux, and ... could not get the brass to stick to the steel, it just ran right off.
> I am pretty sure I successfully brazed in HS shop, and definitely sure I successfully silver-soldered. What I was using looked like brass to me and failed the magnet test. Was i using the wrong rod, the wrong flux, or did not prep correctly the area of the old frame?

My guess: Improper prep. We'll see what Andrew says. He's the expert.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 19:43:57 -0800 (PST), Doug Landau
<doug.landau@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> >I should add that you're talking about MIG welding which implies metals other than steel. In order to maintain the strength of steel you don't want to overheat it meaning that brazing is an acceptable means of dealing with it if possible. The fork I intend to build has lugs and therefore, is a good candidate for brazing. At the moment I am looking in Craigslist for a cheap brazing rig. But prices of everything have gone up faster than gold.
>> Really Tommy? Steel shouldn't be heated? Strange then that so many
>> "steel" things are welded, isn't it? Or is it like "Communism" and
>> "lefties" you simply don't know what "steel" is?
>
>Is this not why bicycles were until recently brazed, and this in turn why lugged? Because brazing is lower temp and thus -hopefully- is completed without taking the temper out of the heat-treated tubes?
>I would suspect that it's not a concern w.r.t. dropouts, or not nearly as bad... cuz of their size and shape, they perhaps a)don't need to be hardened, and b)don't heat up nearly as fast as thin walls of tubing?

Most modern bicycle tubing is made of alloys that are designed to
allow brazing, or in some cases welding without appreciable loss in
strength.

Columbus Niobium, for example, states "Material suggested for TIG
welding" and then specify's the recommended TIG rod to use.
--
Cheers,

John B.