On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 11:57:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 10:18:31 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 2021/08/14 10:16 a.m., Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 10:11:52 -0700, John Larkin
>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I need someone to do the top-level bits of developing products. Not
>>>> board-level design or coding, but the upper-level stuff. Agreeing on
>>>> specs, partitioning, packaging, working with the lower-level
>>>> engineers, project scheduling, test plans, BOMs, assembly drawings,
>>>> putting it all together. This person might not do low-level stuff, but
>>>> would kick anatomies as needed to get that all done.
>>>>
>>>> So if I run some ads, what would be the job title? I worked one place
>>>> that used "project engineer" but I don't know if that's standard.
>>>
>>> Some suggestions (in random order):
>>> 1. Figurehead Engineer
>>> 2. Fearless Leader of the Engineering Pack
>>> 3. Alpha Engineer
>>> 4. Project Drift Realignment Engineer
>>> 5. Project Driver
>>> 6. Herder of Cats and Engineers
>>> 7. Macro Engineering Manager (as opposed to Micro Manager)
>>> 8. Member of the Engineering Management Staff
>>> 9. Engineering Friction Reducer
>>> 10. Managing Project Expediter
>>> 11. Engineering Team Leader
>>> 12. Maker of Tough Decisions
>>> 13. Managing Design Generalist
>>> 14. Collaboration Architect
>>> 15. Keeper of the Faith (from Planet of the Apes)
>>> 16. Manager of Everthing Else
>>> 17. Executive Assistant and Enforcer
>>> 18. Manager of Tedious Tasks
>>> 19. Inspector of Mortals
>>> 20. Director of the Herd
>>> 21. High Priest of the Overtime Tribe
>>> etc...
>
>>22. Kindergarten Teacher...
>>John ;-#)#
>
>Kindergarten Teacher is more correctly described as:
>"Herder of Cats, Kids, and Engineers" (none of which can be
>successfully herded).
>
>Titles are important. I was hired at a marine radio manufacturer in
>about 1973 along with several other engineers. Management decided
>that we need business cards to pass around at the Wescon, Nepcon, SF
>Boat show, etc. Oddly, none of us actually had proper titles. Rather
>than ask, the personnel department simply looked up our salaries on
>the WEMA (western electronics manufacturing association) salary scale
>and printed cards with the associated WEMA title. Mine said "Junior
>Engineer". Of course, I immediately exploded and demanded new cards
>with a proper title commensurate with my job function, not my salary.

There's nothing wrong with "Engineer."

--

Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.

On 2021/08/14 12:35 p.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 11:57:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 10:18:31 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021/08/14 10:16 a.m., Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 10:11:52 -0700, John Larkin
>>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I need someone to do the top-level bits of developing products. Not
>>>>> board-level design or coding, but the upper-level stuff. Agreeing on
>>>>> specs, partitioning, packaging, working with the lower-level
>>>>> engineers, project scheduling, test plans, BOMs, assembly drawings,
>>>>> putting it all together. This person might not do low-level stuff, but
>>>>> would kick anatomies as needed to get that all done.
>>>>>
>>>>> So if I run some ads, what would be the job title? I worked one place
>>>>> that used "project engineer" but I don't know if that's standard.
>>>>
>>>> Some suggestions (in random order):
>>>> 1. Figurehead Engineer
>>>> 2. Fearless Leader of the Engineering Pack
>>>> 3. Alpha Engineer
>>>> 4. Project Drift Realignment Engineer
>>>> 5. Project Driver
>>>> 6. Herder of Cats and Engineers
>>>> 7. Macro Engineering Manager (as opposed to Micro Manager)
>>>> 8. Member of the Engineering Management Staff
>>>> 9. Engineering Friction Reducer
>>>> 10. Managing Project Expediter
>>>> 11. Engineering Team Leader
>>>> 12. Maker of Tough Decisions
>>>> 13. Managing Design Generalist
>>>> 14. Collaboration Architect
>>>> 15. Keeper of the Faith (from Planet of the Apes)
>>>> 16. Manager of Everthing Else
>>>> 17. Executive Assistant and Enforcer
>>>> 18. Manager of Tedious Tasks
>>>> 19. Inspector of Mortals
>>>> 20. Director of the Herd
>>>> 21. High Priest of the Overtime Tribe
>>>> etc...
>>
>>> 22. Kindergarten Teacher...
>>> John ;-#)#
>>
>> Kindergarten Teacher is more correctly described as:
>> "Herder of Cats, Kids, and Engineers" (none of which can be
>> successfully herded).
>>
>> Titles are important. I was hired at a marine radio manufacturer in
>> about 1973 along with several other engineers. Management decided
>> that we need business cards to pass around at the Wescon, Nepcon, SF
>> Boat show, etc. Oddly, none of us actually had proper titles. Rather
>> than ask, the personnel department simply looked up our salaries on
>> the WEMA (western electronics manufacturing association) salary scale
>> and printed cards with the associated WEMA title. Mine said "Junior
>> Engineer". Of course, I immediately exploded and demanded new cards
>> with a proper title commensurate with my job function, not my salary.
>
> There's nothing wrong with "Engineer."
>

My best friend is (well was..) a software engineer, we had many years of
chats on Friday evenings over beer at his business. He has since retired
and is off riding his motorcycle in Ireland at this time...

John :-#)#

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 12:35:11 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

>There's nothing wrong with "Engineer."

Sorry, but I don't know how to drive a train.

How would you react today of you were presented with business cards
with "Junior Engineer" as your job title? Should it matter? Probably
not if someone overshot with the title. But it would matter if
someone assigned you a title beneath your perceived standing.

It also depends on how important the individual and/or the company
considers the title. At one time, it was customary to accompany an
elevation in position with a change of title. I've been disconnected
from corporate America for too long to know if this is still
practiced.

When visiting Japan, I learned (the hard way) that there is a very
specific ritual required when meeting with company officials, some of
which involved my keeping the officials business card in front of me
while we talked. There were plenty other protocol details that were
rather strange, but the business card was a key part of the ceremony.
<https://www.realestate-tokyo.com/living-in-tokyo/japanese-culture/japan-business-card-etiquette/>
More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+business+card+etiquette>
Later, I worked for a Japanese company (Standard Horizon, now part of
Yeasu), where the business card was considered very important.

Since I'm now retired, my biz card no longer needs or has a title:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/jeffl-biz-card.jpg>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 19:03:14 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Sat, 14 Aug 2021 10:16:15 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann
><jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in <0csfhgd06g1cl4mmmepnpgjov6l3tg6d0p@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 10:11:52 -0700, John Larkin
>><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I need someone to do the top-level bits of developing products. Not
>>>board-level design or coding, but the upper-level stuff. Agreeing on
>>>specs, partitioning, packaging, working with the lower-level
>>>engineers, project scheduling, test plans, BOMs, assembly drawings,
>>>putting it all together. This person might not do low-level stuff, but
>>>would kick anatomies as needed to get that all done.
>>>
>>>So if I run some ads, what would be the job title? I worked one place
>>>that used "project engineer" but I don't know if that's standard.
>>
>>Some suggestions (in random order):
>>1. Figurehead Engineer
>>2. Fearless Leader of the Engineering Pack
>>3. Alpha Engineer
>>4. Project Drift Realignment Engineer
>>5. Project Driver
>>6. Herder of Cats and Engineers
>>7. Macro Engineering Manager (as opposed to Micro Manager)
>>8. Member of the Engineering Management Staff
>>9. Engineering Friction Reducer
>>10. Managing Project Expediter
>>11. Engineering Team Leader
>>12. Maker of Tough Decisions
>>13. Managing Design Generalist
>>14. Collaboration Architect
>>15. Keeper of the Faith (from Planet of the Apes)
>>16. Manager of Everthing Else
>>17. Executive Assistant and Enforcer
>>18. Manager of Tedious Tasks
>>19. Inspector of Mortals
>>20. Director of the Herd
>>21. High Priest of the Overtime Tribe
>>etc...
>
>Genius?

I've seen actual titles like Technical Evangelist and Futurist.

Big companies often have a futurist career track. The endpoint is
"Fellow." Collins/UTC has around 200 of them, and they get together
now and then in somewhere nice to swap ideas.

Often these people are very important but nobody reports to them. If
they report to anyone, it's nominal, just the path their paycheck goes
through.

I know one who has two offices and two nominal bosses in different
cities, so nobody is ever sure what he's up to.

But I want a project engineer.

--

Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 13:42:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 12:35:11 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
>wrote:
>
>>There's nothing wrong with "Engineer."
>
>Sorry, but I don't know how to drive a train.
>
>How would you react today of you were presented with business cards
>with "Junior Engineer" as your job title? Should it matter? Probably
>not if someone overshot with the title. But it would matter if
>someone assigned you a title beneath your perceived standing.
>
>It also depends on how important the individual and/or the company
>considers the title. At one time, it was customary to accompany an
>elevation in position with a change of title. I've been disconnected
>from corporate America for too long to know if this is still
>practiced.
>
>When visiting Japan, I learned (the hard way) that there is a very
>specific ritual required when meeting with company officials, some of
>which involved my keeping the officials business card in front of me
>while we talked. There were plenty other protocol details that were
>rather strange, but the business card was a key part of the ceremony.
><https://www.realestate-tokyo.com/living-in-tokyo/japanese-culture/japan-business-card-etiquette/>
>More:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+business+card+etiquette>
>Later, I worked for a Japanese company (Standard Horizon, now part of
>Yeasu), where the business card was considered very important.
>
>Since I'm now retired, my biz card no longer needs or has a title:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/jeffl-biz-card.jpg>

Hardly anyone uses cards any more. They can be handy for other things,
like small insulators.

--

Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.

On 14/08/21 18:16, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 10:11:52 -0700, John Larkin
> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>
>> I need someone to do the top-level bits of developing products. Not
>> board-level design or coding, but the upper-level stuff. Agreeing on
>> specs, partitioning, packaging, working with the lower-level
>> engineers, project scheduling, test plans, BOMs, assembly drawings,
>> putting it all together. This person might not do low-level stuff, but
>> would kick anatomies as needed to get that all done.
>>
>> So if I run some ads, what would be the job title? I worked one place
>> that used "project engineer" but I don't know if that's standard.
>
> Some suggestions (in random order):
> 1. Figurehead Engineer
> 2. Fearless Leader of the Engineering Pack
> 3. Alpha Engineer
> 4. Project Drift Realignment Engineer
> 5. Project Driver
> 6. Herder of Cats and Engineers
> 7. Macro Engineering Manager (as opposed to Micro Manager)
> 8. Member of the Engineering Management Staff
> 9. Engineering Friction Reducer
> 10. Managing Project Expediter
> 11. Engineering Team Leader
> 12. Maker of Tough Decisions
> 13. Managing Design Generalist
> 14. Collaboration Architect
> 15. Keeper of the Faith (from Planet of the Apes)
> 16. Manager of Everthing Else
> 17. Executive Assistant and Enforcer
> 18. Manager of Tedious Tasks
> 19. Inspector of Mortals
> 20. Director of the Herd
> 21. High Priest of the Overtime Tribe
> etc...

"Applied Philosopher", since they are given vague constraints
and have to ask "when you say X, what do you mean by X?".
"Elucidator" would also fit that bill.

I've never given any thought to a job title.

In my first job I was doing exactly the same when I
was an "Assistant Engineer Grade 2", "Assistant
Engineer Grade 1" and "Engineer".

In my second job I sometimes had my line manager working
for me on a project.

On 2021/08/14 2:13 p.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 13:42:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 12:35:11 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There's nothing wrong with "Engineer."
>>
>> Sorry, but I don't know how to drive a train.
>>
>> How would you react today of you were presented with business cards
>> with "Junior Engineer" as your job title? Should it matter? Probably
>> not if someone overshot with the title. But it would matter if
>> someone assigned you a title beneath your perceived standing.
>>
>> It also depends on how important the individual and/or the company
>> considers the title. At one time, it was customary to accompany an
>> elevation in position with a change of title. I've been disconnected
>>from corporate America for too long to know if this is still
>> practiced.
>>
>> When visiting Japan, I learned (the hard way) that there is a very
>> specific ritual required when meeting with company officials, some of
>> which involved my keeping the officials business card in front of me
>> while we talked. There were plenty other protocol details that were
>> rather strange, but the business card was a key part of the ceremony.
>> <https://www.realestate-tokyo.com/living-in-tokyo/japanese-culture/japan-business-card-etiquette/>
>> More:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+business+card+etiquette>
>> Later, I worked for a Japanese company (Standard Horizon, now part of
>> Yeasu), where the business card was considered very important.
>>
>> Since I'm now retired, my biz card no longer needs or has a title:
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/jeffl-biz-card.jpg>
>
> Hardly anyone uses cards any more. They can be handy for other things,
> like small insulators.
>
>

I hand mine out when customers visit the store, or I'm talking with
someone on the street. They sometimes turn up decades later leading a
new customer to my business...

I still consider them a cheap form of advertising, but I've always used
embossed lettering on gold cards - they look good and I get compliments
on the cards often. And folks remember them.

John :-#)#

On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 7:03:38 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 01:55:20 +0300, LM <sala...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 10:11:52 -0700, John Larkin
> ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I need someone to do the top-level bits of developing products. Not
> >>board-level design or coding, but the upper-level stuff. Agreeing on
> >>specs, partitioning, packaging, working with the lower-level
> >>engineers, project scheduling, test plans, BOMs, assembly drawings,
> >>putting it all together. This person might not do low-level stuff, but
> >>would kick anatomies as needed to get that all done.
> >>
> >>So if I run some ads, what would be the job title? I worked one place
> >>that used "project engineer" but I don't know if that's standard.
> >I wonder if that person is you. Who better knows what your people can
> >do, and what not. And how fast/at what cost.
> I've done too much of that. I want to design circuits, the opposite
> end of the process. Managing a project is hard work, and tedious to
> me. Some people like doing this function, like some people enjoy being
> cooks or bookkeepers or musicians.

Hmm, Sounds like you want a project 'closer'. Someone to nail down all the specs,
boms, drawings, and get the 'thing' out the door. (I suck at project closing.)
George H.

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<ggherold@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 7:03:38 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 01:55:20 +0300, LM <sala...@mail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 10:11:52 -0700, John Larkin
>> ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>I need someone to do the top-level bits of developing products. Not
>> >>board-level design or coding, but the upper-level stuff. Agreeing on
>> >>specs, partitioning, packaging, working with the lower-level
>> >>engineers, project scheduling, test plans, BOMs, assembly drawings,
>> >>putting it all together. This person might not do low-level stuff, but
>> >>would kick anatomies as needed to get that all done.
>> >>
>> >>So if I run some ads, what would be the job title? I worked one place
>> >>that used "project engineer" but I don't know if that's standard.
>> >I wonder if that person is you. Who better knows what your people can
>> >do, and what not. And how fast/at what cost.
>> I've done too much of that. I want to design circuits, the opposite
>> end of the process. Managing a project is hard work, and tedious to
>> me. Some people like doing this function, like some people enjoy being
>> cooks or bookkeepers or musicians.
>
>Hmm, Sounds like you want a project 'closer'. Someone to nail down all the specs,
>boms, drawings, and get the 'thing' out the door. (I suck at project closing.)
>George H.

A project engineer is in from start to finish, but usually doesn't do
all the low level design or code. But might do some.

--

Father Brown's figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.