I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture wrong
.. I'd recut but the piece I used was just barely big enough to begin
with . Oh well , looks like this one is going to cost me a few bucks
instead of being made totally from stock on hand . I'll also be
correcting a couple of things I thought were marginal - mostly due to
the thickness of the piece . I'll also be keeping the first attempt just
in case some day I have to sharpen a left hand twist end mill .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

On 3/18/2023 12:01 PM, Snag wrote:
>   I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture wrong
> . I'd recut but the piece I used was just barely big enough to begin
> with . Oh well , looks like this one is going to cost me a few bucks
> instead of being made totally from stock on hand . I'll also be
> correcting a couple of things I thought were marginal - mostly due to
> the thickness of the piece . I'll also be keeping the first attempt just
> in case some day I have to sharpen a left hand twist end mill .

Would it work with a down cut?

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Snag" wrote in message news:tv51p5$2jtva$1@dont-email.me...

I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture wrong
.. I'd recut but the piece I used was just barely big enough to begin
with . Oh well , looks like this one is going to cost me a few bucks
instead of being made totally from stock on hand . I'll also be
correcting a couple of things I thought were marginal - mostly due to
the thickness of the piece . I'll also be keeping the first attempt just
in case some day I have to sharpen a left hand twist end mill .

Snag

------------------

How wrong?

I don't think the exact angle matters much as long as the cutting edges
aren't straight across, the tips touch the work first. When I sharpen a 4
flute I may have to rotate the flute being ground somewhat to clear the next
one, and that changes the 2 degree angle, but I don't notice a problem when
milling with it.

If your end angle is large enough to show in the tool marks you could rotate
the fixture base on the mag chuck to decrease it.

I've squared off and then reground a chipped brand-name endmill entirely by
hand to rough it to shape before finishing it on the surface grinder. As a
test it did cut smoothly with the one longest flute.

If the collet tilts the wrong way and you intend to grind on a vertical mill
you can just reverse the spindle to grind into the edge of a right hand
endmill.

On 3/18/2023 3:43 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 3/18/2023 12:01 PM, Snag wrote:
>>    I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture
>> wrong . I'd recut but the piece I used was just barely big enough to
>> begin with . Oh well , looks like this one is going to cost me a few
>> bucks instead of being made totally from stock on hand . I'll also be
>> correcting a couple of things I thought were marginal - mostly due to
>> the thickness of the piece . I'll also be keeping the first attempt
>> just in case some day I have to sharpen a left hand twist end mill .
>
>
> Would it work with a down cut?
>

No , he geometry is backwards . If I cut on the far side of the wheel
, the center is longer than the corner . If I cut on the front , the
angle on the cutting edge is backwards . It'll work perfect for an end
mill that turns ccw ...
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

On 3/18/2023 7:20 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:tv51p5$2jtva$1@dont-email.me...
>
>   I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture wrong
> . I'd recut but the piece I used was just barely big enough to begin
> with . Oh well , looks like this one is going to cost me a few bucks
> instead of being made totally from stock on hand . I'll also be
> correcting a couple of things I thought were marginal - mostly due to
> the thickness of the piece . I'll also be keeping the first attempt just
> in case some day I have to sharpen a left hand twist end mill .
>
> Snag
>
> ------------------
>
> How wrong?
>
> I don't think the exact angle matters much as long as the cutting edges
> aren't straight across, the tips touch the work first. When I sharpen a
> 4 flute I may have to rotate the flute being ground somewhat to clear
> the next one, and that changes the 2 degree angle, but I don't notice a
> problem when milling with it.
>
> If your end angle is large enough to show in the tool marks you could
> rotate the fixture base on the mag chuck to decrease it.
>
> I've squared off and then reground a chipped brand-name endmill entirely
> by hand to rough it to shape before finishing it on the surface grinder.
> As a test it did cut smoothly with the one longest flute.
>
> If the collet tilts the wrong way and you intend to grind on a vertical
> mill you can just reverse the spindle to grind into the edge of a right
> hand endmill.
>

See my response to Bob ...
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

"Snag" wrote in message news:tv5m8i$2n78k$1@dont-email.me...

On 3/18/2023 3:43 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 3/18/2023 12:01 PM, Snag wrote:
>> I managed to get the 2° angle on my end mill sharpening fixture wrong
>> .

No , he geometry is backwards . If I cut on the far side of the wheel
, the center is longer than the corner . If I cut on the front , the
angle on the cutting edge is backwards . It'll work perfect for an end
mill that turns ccw ...
Snag
---------------------------
As long as the collet has enough tilt there has to be a rotation of the base
that leans the collet a little to the left and more forward, viewed from the
approaching grinding wheel. The combined collet tilt on my fixture appears
to be about 6-7 degrees from vertical and rotated about 15 degrees to the
left from that perspective. The base bevel is 25 degrees.

Can you cut down the base and attach it to a block that orients it correctly
in the mill vise?
Or maybe mark a reference line on the base parallel to the table and hold it
there with tee slot clamps.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tv5rin$2qrj7$1@dont-email.me...

If I rotate the base of my fixture 30 degrees CCW it leans 2 degrees to the
right, to grind a LH endmill. The correction for an accidentally left-handed
base would be to rotate it 30 degrees CW.

On 3/18/2023 9:49 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:tv5rin$2qrj7$1@dont-email.me...
>
> If I rotate the base of my fixture 30 degrees CCW it leans 2 degrees to
> the right, to grind a LH endmill. The correction for an accidentally
> left-handed base would be to rotate it 30 degrees CW.
>

I'll look into that tomorrow . Thanks !
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

"Snag" wrote in message news:tv5tot$2r4es$1@dont-email.me...

On 3/18/2023 9:49 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tv5rin$2qrj7$1@dont-email.me...
>
> If I rotate the base of my fixture 30 degrees CCW it leans 2 degrees to
> the right, to grind a LH endmill. The correction for an accidentally
> left-handed base would be to rotate it 30 degrees CW.
>

I'll look into that tomorrow . Thanks !
Snag

------------------

And tomorrow I'll be out looking for the spring C clip that popped off the
front axle of my truck and vanished where a magnetic sweeper couldn't find
it. Although it also didn't find the clip, at night the thermal imager made
everything lying on the ground including a sample tarp grommet stand out in
high contrast to the warmer earth. It may be in a snow bank that I'll screen
tomorrow.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:tv5vrk$2rfln$1@dont-email.me...

And tomorrow I'll be out looking for the spring C clip that popped off the
front axle of my truck and vanished where a magnetic sweeper couldn't find
it. Although it also didn't find the clip, at night the thermal imager made
everything lying on the ground including a sample tarp grommet stand out in
high contrast to the warmer earth. It may be in a snow bank that I'll screen
tomorrow.

-----------------------------

It was in a snowbank that I raked out to slowly melt. I don't normally let
Jeezus clips get away like that.

On 3/19/2023 1:39 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:tv5vrk$2rfln$1@dont-email.me...
>
> And tomorrow I'll be out looking for the spring C clip that popped off the
> front axle of my truck and vanished where a magnetic sweeper couldn't find
> it. Although it also didn't find the clip, at night the thermal imager made
> everything lying on the ground including a sample tarp grommet stand out in
> high contrast to the warmer earth. It may be in a snow bank that I'll
> screen
> tomorrow.
>
> -----------------------------
>
> It was in a snowbank that I raked out to slowly melt. I don't normally
> let Jeezus clips get away like that.
>

Dad called 'em that too ... he also taught me that if possible put a
plastic bag over the part so if it tries to escape it can't . Kinda hard
to do often when working on a vehicle .
I tried the rotating thing with my fixture , no joy . No matter which
direction I oriented the fixture in the vice and rotated it I couldn't
get the proper angles . I have another piece of aluminum on the way ,
looks like this project won't be all from stock on hand . I considered
casting a block but decided to just buy it . I need to get all that
money spent before MY bank crashes !
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

On 3/19/2023 1:22 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 3/19/2023 1:39 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Jim Wilkins"  wrote in message news:tv5vrk$2rfln$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> And tomorrow I'll be out looking for the spring C clip that popped off
>> the
>> front axle of my truck and vanished where a magnetic sweeper couldn't
>> find
>> it. Although it also didn't find the clip, at night the thermal imager
>> made
>> everything lying on the ground including a sample tarp grommet stand
>> out in
>> high contrast to the warmer earth. It may be in a snow bank that I'll
>> screen
>> tomorrow.
>>
>> -----------------------------
>>
>> It was in a snowbank that I raked out to slowly melt. I don't normally
>> let Jeezus clips get away like that.
>>
>
>   Dad called 'em that too ... he also taught me that if possible put a
> plastic bag over the part so if it tries to escape it can't . Kinda hard
> to do often when working on a vehicle .
>   I tried the rotating thing with my fixture , no joy . No matter which
> direction I oriented the fixture in the vice and rotated it I couldn't
> get the proper angles . I have another piece of aluminum on the way ,
> looks like this project won't be all from stock on hand . I considered
> casting a block but decided to just buy it . I need to get all that
> money spent before MY bank crashes !

Don't scare me like that. If my banks crash (I do spread it around for
safety) I'm toast. I do almost 100% of all my sales on-line.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Snag" wrote in message news:tv7qtu$35b8v$1@dont-email.me...

I tried the rotating thing with my fixture , no joy . No matter which
direction I oriented the fixture in the vice and rotated it I couldn't
get the proper angles . I have another piece of aluminum on the way ,
looks like this project won't be all from stock on hand . I considered
casting a block but decided to just buy it . I need to get all that
money spent before MY bank crashes !
Snag

---------------

I didn't expect it to align in the vise. On mine the base rotation between
RH and LH is about 30 degrees, not one or more quarter turns. The simple fix
is to clamp it to the mill table in an orientation that gives you the
grinding angles and then draw a line on the base parallel to the table slots
so you can repeat that positioning. If you want you could attach it to a
larger base that goes in the vise. You might have to grind the back relief
by hand, which is faster anyway.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tv7sha$35iu9$1@dont-email.me...

On 3/19/2023 1:22 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 3/19/2023 1:39 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>
>> It was in a snowbank that I raked out to slowly melt. I don't normally
>> let Jeezus clips get away like that.
>>
>
> Dad called 'em that too ... he also taught me that if possible put a
> plastic bag over the part so if it tries to escape it can't . Kinda hard
> to do often when working on a vehicle .
----------------------
It slipped past freezing fingers.
----------------------
> I tried the rotating thing with my fixture , no joy . No matter which
> direction I oriented the fixture in the vice and rotated it I couldn't get
> the proper angles . I have another piece of aluminum on the way , looks
> like this project won't be all from stock on hand . I considered casting a
> block but decided to just buy it . I need to get all that money spent
> before MY bank crashes !

Don't scare me like that. If my banks crash (I do spread it around for
safety) I'm toast. I do almost 100% of all my sales on-line.
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

----------------------

Fear not, the Illuminati are in firm control.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4586763-svb-financials-collapse-poised-to-help-not-hurt-big-banks

"In the case of the SVB collapse, I believe the banks listed above are set
to receive large inflows of deposits as businesses around the nation rethink
banking relationships."

Besides, the FDIC insures you for up to $250,000 per bank.
https://www.fdic.gov/resources/deposit-insurance/brochures/insured-deposits/

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tv7sha$35iu9$1@dont-email.me...

Don't scare me like that. If my banks crash (I do spread it around for
safety) I'm toast. I do almost 100% of all my sales on-line.

------------------------

https://twitter.com/elonmusk

On 3/19/2023 4:46 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:tv7qtu$35b8v$1@dont-email.me...
>
>   I tried the rotating thing with my fixture , no joy . No matter which
> direction I oriented the fixture in the vice and rotated it I couldn't
> get the proper angles . I have another piece of aluminum on the way ,
> looks like this project won't be all from stock on hand . I considered
> casting a block but decided to just buy it . I need to get all that
> money spent before MY bank crashes !
> Snag
>
> ---------------
>
> I didn't expect it to align in the vise. On mine the base rotation
> between RH and LH is about 30 degrees, not one or more quarter turns.
> The simple fix is to clamp it to the mill table in an orientation that
> gives you the grinding angles and then draw a line on the base parallel
> to the table slots so you can repeat that positioning. If you want you
> could attach it to a larger base that goes in the vise. You might have
> to grind the back relief by hand, which is faster anyway.

The vise isn't bolted down , I rotated the whole thing . Even used
one of my new angle plates to set it at 30° .
--
Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

"Snag" wrote in message news:tv8n63$3ck4n$1@dont-email.me...
On 3/19/2023 4:46 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
......[try turning it]...

The vise isn't bolted down , I rotated the whole thing . Even used
one of my new angle plates to set it at 30° .

Snag

----------------------------

Without seeing / examining it I can only guess, so I assumed you made a
mirror image of the correct geometry.

Can you find and measure the maximum collet holder tilt and mark its
direction?

On mine it's tilted about 6 or 7 degrees, and rotated about 15 degrees
clockwise from the center of the beveled end so that about 2 degrees of the
tilt dishes the cutting edges in toward the center and about 5 degrees of it
is back relief. Those are rough visual estimates of mine because my vernier
protractor doesn't fit against the angles.

https://www.penntoolco.com/precise-end-mill-grinding-fixture-5-c-collet-capacity-emf-100/
The Eagle Rock ones are shown from the perspective I've used. I took the 2
and 5 degree angles from the note, my fixture has the base bevel at 25
instead of 30 degrees.

On 3/20/2023 8:01 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:tv8n63$3ck4n$1@dont-email.me...
> On 3/19/2023 4:46 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> .....[try turning it]...
>
>   The vise isn't bolted down , I rotated the whole thing . Even used
> one of my new angle plates to set it at 30° .
>
> Snag
>
> ----------------------------
>
> Without seeing / examining it I can only guess, so I assumed you made a
> mirror image of the correct geometry.
>
> Can you find and measure the maximum collet holder tilt and mark its
> direction?
>
> On mine it's tilted about 6 or 7 degrees, and rotated about 15 degrees
> clockwise from the center of the beveled end so that about 2 degrees of
> the tilt dishes the cutting edges in toward the center and about 5
> degrees of it is back relief. Those are rough visual estimates of mine
> because my vernier protractor doesn't fit against the angles.
>
> https://www.penntoolco.com/precise-end-mill-grinding-fixture-5-c-collet-capacity-emf-100/
>
> The Eagle Rock ones are shown from the perspective I've used. I took the
> 2 and 5 degree angles from the note, my fixture has the base bevel at 25
> instead of 30 degrees.
>

Looking at the "thick" end , the 2° bevel leans the end mill to the
left instead of the right . So if cutting on the front side of the
grinding wheel , the center will be longer than the perimeter . And if
cutting on the back side of the wheel the center will be cupped , but
you will be grinding the cutting edge backwards .
When the new piece of stock arrives I'll cut a new tilted wedge and
start over . I'll be changing the order of operations too , the hole
will be the first thing machined , it's a lot easier to hold a square
block than a tapered one .

Snag
"You can lead a dummy to facts
but you can't make him think."

"Snag" wrote in message news:tvb82f$3su9b$1@dont-email.me...

On 3/20/2023 8:01 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> Without seeing / examining it I can only guess, so I assumed you made a
> mirror image of the correct geometry.
>

Looking at the "thick" end , the 2° bevel leans the end mill to the
left instead of the right . So if cutting on the front side of the
grinding wheel , the center will be longer than the perimeter . And if
cutting on the back side of the wheel the center will be cupped , but
you will be grinding the cutting edge backwards .

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{
That's what I took from your description, that it's an opposite-handed
mirror image. I suggested how you might be able to salvage it with a
rotation and different way to hold it on the mill, at least to better
understand and prove your intended fix, but it's your project.

Now you have a physical sample to compare to, the spatial translations
between how a part is used and how it needs to be machined can be confusing
to visualize. You could double check by putting the existing block in the
new fixture to confirm that the cut will be at the correct opposite angle.
https://www.monolithic.org/blogs/presidents-sphere/what-the-customer-really-wants/photos

I acquired some practice understanding and mentally modeling symmetry,
reflections and rotations in 7th grade drafting class. The teacher had a set
of difficult models we had to draw correctly. Handling and looking at them
from different directions helped a lot. That's why I machined samples of my
suggestions to show the project engineers, instead of trying to describe
them. Mechanical engineers didn't really need help but electrical engineers
lacked that sort of training.

A friend in the drafting class was the son of an architect, and determined
to prove he was the best draftsman. I wouldn't let him get off easily and
thus learned a lot myself. I also learned how manipulate someone's
competitive and egotistic nature, and recognize those tactics from sales
people.
https://www.teamimprovus.net/satisficer-maximiser-what-type-of-decision-maker-are-you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

When the new piece of stock arrives I'll cut a new tilted wedge and
start over . I'll be changing the order of operations too , the hole
will be the first thing machined , it's a lot easier to hold a square
block than a tapered one .
Snag

-------------------------
And you will have become a better machinist from the problem-solving
experience.

If a check of the tram on my milling machine shows that it's gone off I
might tilt and swivel the head for a job like this before squaring it up
again.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Snag" wrote in message news:tvb82f$3su9b$1@dont-email.me...
>>...

> ...
> A friend in the drafting class was the son of an architect, and
> determined to prove he was the best draftsman. I wouldn't let him get
> off easily and thus learned a lot myself. I also learned how
> manipulate someone's competitive and egotistic nature, and recognize
> those tactics from sales people.
> https://www.teamimprovus.net/satisficer-maximiser-what-type-of-decision-maker-are-you
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
> }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
> ...

Jim - you are a polymath for sure, and you shine lots of useful
additional illumination on a topic.

I was once presented with a problematic weld
* problematic in that we had a suspicion it had defects
* problematic in that its geometry defeated all volumetric NDT/NDE
I had a good colleague who is as well as an engineer a qualified UT
(Ultrasonic Testing) technician.
We could see a potential way - but it conjecture only.
Procrastination would have been endless - and angry.
So I got my colleague to "request" the subcontractor provide the
equipment.
Left in a bind - everyone was - the box was there with the kit we
asked for.
Something like an hour passes and we are making progress, prepping and
trying, and people come closer and closer.
Before long we have a deep semicircle of welders and engineers and the
idea is "in play", all scratching their heads and making suggestions.
Had we asked anyone and not kept our mouths shut and simply prototyped
it, we would have got nowhere.

My Doctorate "flew" because I tried many techniques - "finite" concept
tests. "Dead-certs" fell by the wayside never working at all and
"outliers" "far out in the long grass" performed even though for them
to work must mean there is some law-of-the-universe we don't know
about (yet).

This - crashing straight through all the reasoned objections and
holding-up working completely unexpected solutions in unexpectedly
short timescales, upsetting a lot of people, is why I have to work as
a welder "incognito" rather than having my name with title on a door
indicating I am a leading "linking it all together" person.

"Prototyping"...
You recognise "prototyping" as everyone getting together and trying
ideas, seeing which ones work and if so how well?

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyzg86w4mo.fsf@void.com...

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>...........

This - crashing straight through all the reasoned objections and
holding-up working completely unexpected solutions in unexpectedly
short timescales, upsetting a lot of people, is why I have to work as
a welder "incognito" rather than having my name with title on a door
indicating I am a leading "linking it all together" person.

"Prototyping"...
You recognise "prototyping" as everyone getting together and trying
ideas, seeing which ones work and if so how well?

--------

I started on the path to become a scientist but was derailed by the Vietnam
draft after the grad school deferment was cancelled. I had discovered that
I'd rather be doing hands-on work in preference to theory and spending half
the day in meetings, so after learning computer-type electronics in the Army
I took R&D technician jobs with (risky) bleeding-edge startups to learn the
latest technology, and found that suited me better than being a degreed
design engineer who never touched a soldering iron. When they discovered I
could fill in the details of a bare concept and take it to working hardware
they gave me the creative design, construction and programming tasks I
wanted, without the burden of meetings and reports. I'm not sure I would
have been as satisfied on my original path.

I wasn't good at writing reports because you have to write linearly but I
think in multiple dimensions (dementions?). I began posting here for
practice on readers who may criticize or fail to understand but don't sign
my paycheck. Thus the long rambling essays.

"working completely unexpected solutions in unexpectedly short timescales,
upsetting a lot of people"

I had to be very careful about not causing offense when I solved in 15
minutes a problem PhDs had been struggling with for 2 weeks. At least they
knew who to go to. 10 of those minutes were spent setting up an oscilloscope
display that let them clearly see the problem themselves, rather than taking
the word of a lab tech. There was no immediate gratitude (just sullen
grumbling) but the next time they assembled a team to develop a new product
I was invited to join it.

In Brit terms I'd rather be Arnold Wilkins than Robert Watson-Watt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Wilkins

"Prototyping"...
You recognise "prototyping" as everyone getting together and trying
ideas, seeing which ones work and if so how well?

----------------------

I saw little of that or at least wasn't invited. Usually the design
responsibility was partitioned among a small team, each member with a well
defined scope, such as one electrical, one mechanical and one optical
engineer, plus me helping all of them and perhaps writing software. If one
hit a difficult problem they would try to solve it themselves or with me
building their trial hardware, having two equal engineers on it can cause
friction unless it can be cleanly divided. Larger projects were more finely
partitioned, e.g. to the individual circuit board level. As the lab tech I
was rarely asked my opinion until I had proven myself as a source of
innovation. Then I received an area of responsibility such as test and
calibration and had discussions with my boss, or sometimes handled the
documentation part of coordinating the team effort, due to my drafting
experience. I did once loan the team a spectrum analyzer when there was a
problem with motor speed variation.

On 3/21/2023 3:42 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> As the lab tech I was rarely asked my opinion until I had proven myself
> as a source of innovation.

My grandfather complained about this sort of thing at NASA. He was a
"research mechanic." It was his job to figure out how to setup the
experiments the engineers and scientists wanted to run in his lab at
Lewis Research Center. That's the way he explained it to me back around
1980 anyway. His complaints often went one further. They often didn't
even bother to check if the exact same experiment had been done before.
He'd listen in frustration while thinking... I ran this for the another
new kid who came in... ten years ago.

--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tvdgou$arct$1@dont-email.me...

On 3/21/2023 3:42 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> As the lab tech I was rarely asked my opinion until I had proven myself as
> a source of innovation.

My grandfather complained about this sort of thing at NASA. He was a
"research mechanic." It was his job to figure out how to setup the
experiments the engineers and scientists wanted to run in his lab at
Lewis Research Center. That's the way he explained it to me back around
1980 anyway. His complaints often went one further. They often didn't
even bother to check if the exact same experiment had been done before.
He'd listen in frustration while thinking... I ran this for the another
new kid who came in... ten years ago.
Bob La Londe

-------------------

I wasn't complaining. A degree gives one a fairly standard, predictable set
of knowledge while I was strong in areas where I had practical or
theoretical exposure and very weak where I didn't. My chemistry and physics
training gave me a different, wider but shallower background which I tried
to make complement the deeper, narrower education of EEs. Another tech did
well based on his Astronomy degree.

It was clear that at least some EEs hadn't learned how to extrapolate beyond
what they had been taught. Perhaps that is a reflection on professors who
chose academia over industry. I was more willing to take risks because I had
less to lose; I could still keep soldering after making a bad guess.

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> ...
>
> I wasn't good at writing reports because you have to write linearly
> but I think in multiple dimensions (dementions?). ...

Yes. Exactly.
The processing and the means of progress is a multidimensional fully
linked "space". Links are elastic, and they can rearrange on new
discoveries or errors identified and correct relations identied. But
it's the idea of every dynamically linked.
So rendering a text description is "challenging".

This is why you need to have a team of engineers and scientists whose
brief is to "run with the job". You are always finding your way
along, the significant guiding of the physical things happening
(eg. the bridge is now getting its deck) is in the minds of the team,
and anything written is some after-the-event summary with the key
concepts coming into perspective to convey benefitting from hindsight.

By the way - major alway present "force" - competitive pressure.

There will be other teams in other places trying to do the same
thing. So you have to be very efficient to be there first or at least
in the front runners. So it's a game, and is a fun one. Basically we
get paid for putting the endeavour up among the leaders where the
overall endeavour can be remunerative. In return for which we have
thinking time and a lot of fun.

My Doctorate - there was a fairly determinate way to get to the
outcome - but it would have taken millions of times more resources
than I had and someone would have got there first by another means.
Which I did by an "indeterminate path". I could see there were
"galloping grounds" - but also "hidden ground" where I had no idea at
the outset how I was going to cross it. Nothing looked physically
impossible (that would mean contravening a known Law of the Universe)
in my instinct, so I simply had to have faith that I would find my way
through when I arrived at "valleys" as I came upon them and had to
cross.

> ... I began posting here
> for practice on readers who may criticize or fail to understand but
> don't sign my paycheck. Thus the long rambling essays.
>
> ...

Ha haaaa, brilliant "ploy".

Some of my articles on my website are a kind of diary.
That's why I don't care if the hard work takes me only to what those
who work in the field consider fairly much "level 101".

Here's an example
http://weldsmith.co.uk/tech/marine/221231_fhs/221231_froudehs_eg.html
"Hydrodynamics, Froude number and a clever vessel design"
I realised there was something special about these vessel - compared
*only* to all that I had known = yachts, tugboats, etc.
Having got to the end of that article, I was in a position to
understand vessels of this type have been around for at least 30
years and are widely known in the marine world (the balance of all
positives and constraints gives them a narrow niche application I
myself had never encountered).
But for me - that's okay. Doing the article served my purpose
* it's my "diary entry"
* I learned along the path of writing it

For learning, this is 100% an exercise in learning
http://weldsmith.co.uk/nautical/220713_torreyc/220713_torrey_canyon_investig.html
"Investigate Torrey Canyon / Pollard Rock wreck circumstances"
Every question along the way was soliciting information - the most
significant word-of-mouth.
I only contributed identifying what the tide was doing at about 0800
on the 18th of March 1967. Which all on my little owneo I found could
be had from oceanographic academic collections with tide data. That was
in my area of "leading" ability. I found the data, then knew how to
"throw around" that much data and extract selected graphs which make
sense to anyone. But that was enough to bring in all the guidance
which was 100% of how I progressed developing that article.

Changing tack - I suspect the war in Europe is straining our systems
and revealing their weaknesses.
I suspect that 40+years on from "moving into a post-industrial world"
what looked brilliant before has a significant part of the population
who instinctively "quack" responses and their minds have only the
sequential linearity of picking along rote rule sets. Nothing of the
concurrent multidimensional thinking with all its power but its scary
uncertainties and the complete unknowns.
That a bank (SVB) which specialising in being a portal for the money
flows in and out of innovation collapses due to the strains of a war
is "unpromising" (tactfully putting it).

Ha-haa - "wrong angle" - pontificating fantasies of "right and wrong",
"good vs. evil", etc., will "win the day". Oh nooooo!!!

Thanks for starting an interesting thought process Jim.
To Jim and all of you, best wishes,
Rich S