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tech / sci.astro.amateur / New proposed inter-stellar probe

SubjectAuthor
* New proposed inter-stellar probeRichA
+- Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeChris L Peterson
+- Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeChris L Peterson
`* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeMartin Brown
 `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeRichA
  +- Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeJibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
  `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeChris L Peterson
   +- Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeQuadibloc
   `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeRichA
    `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeChris L Peterson
     `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeRichA
      `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeChris L Peterson
       `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeGary Harnagel
        `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeChris L Peterson
         +* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeQuadibloc
         |`- Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeScott Kozel
         `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeGary Harnagel
          `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeChris L Peterson
           +- Re: New proposed inter-stellar probefred k. engels®
           `* Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeQuadibloc
            `- Re: New proposed inter-stellar probeChris L Peterson

1
New proposed inter-stellar probe

<d55c7dab-941c-4095-8007-fcd4d5711acen@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: New proposed inter-stellar probe
From: rander3...@gmail.com (RichA)
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 by: RichA - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 10:04 UTC

Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 16:36 UTC

On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 02:04:20 -0800 (PST), RichA <rander3128@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
>
>https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597

Because nobody is going to fund a multi-billion dollar mission that
requires generations to return results, assuming the technology even
existed to create a craft with that longevity.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

<h844sgph7d590a405gqpvbri0vivp92nj7@4ax.com>

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 17:40 UTC

On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 02:04:20 -0800 (PST), RichA <rander3128@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
>
>https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597

And, FWIW, you can't use the Sun to provide a gravitational assist
like you can with Jupiter. You might be able to use the Oberth effect,
but that would require a functionally thrusting spacecraft when it was
very near the Sun, which might well be technologically infeasible.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

<spte6d$1d5d$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=7326&group=sci.astro.amateur#7326

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 20:41:42 +0000
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 by: Martin Brown - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 20:41 UTC

On 21/12/2021 10:04, RichA wrote:
> Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
>
> https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597

It speeds up as it falls toward the sun well enough but then it slows
down again as it climbs back out of the gravitational potential.

There is no free lunch! You have to chase a gas giant in *orbit* around
the sun to get a slingshot acceleration. The probe steals a small amount
of momentum and energy off the moving planetary target as it goes past.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
From: rander3...@gmail.com (RichA)
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 by: RichA - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 22:47 UTC

On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 at 15:41:53 UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 21/12/2021 10:04, RichA wrote:
> > Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
> >
> > https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597
> It speeds up as it falls toward the sun well enough but then it slows
> down again as it climbs back out of the gravitational potential.
>
> There is no free lunch! You have to chase a gas giant in *orbit* around
> the sun to get a slingshot acceleration. The probe steals a small amount
> of momentum and energy off the moving planetary target as it goes past.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

That's too bad. I figured if it used Jupiter, it could have used the Sun to the same effect.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

<XnsAE079C06C5209taustingmail@85.12.62.245>

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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha)
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 by: Jibini Kula Tumbili - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 22:20 UTC

RichA <rander3128@gmail.com> wrote in
news:7b07483c-4a77-4cb9-bd6b-bb0f60088d01n@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 at 15:41:53 UTC-5, Martin Brown
> wrote:
>> On 21/12/2021 10:04, RichA wrote:
>> > Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and
>> > a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a
>> > dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the
>> > Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
>> >
>> > https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597
>> It speeds up as it falls toward the sun well enough but then it
>> slows down again as it climbs back out of the gravitational
>> potential.
>>
>> There is no free lunch! You have to chase a gas giant in
>> *orbit* around the sun to get a slingshot acceleration. The
>> probe steals a small amount of momentum and energy off the
>> moving planetary target as it goes past.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Martin Brown
>
> That's too bad. I figured if it used Jupiter, it could have
> used the Sun to the same effect.
>
That would be beacuse you don't know your ass from a hole in the
ground.

(But the sun is in orbit around the center of the galaxy. Have fun
with that.)

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:14 UTC

On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 14:47:15 -0800 (PST), RichA <rander3128@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 at 15:41:53 UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 21/12/2021 10:04, RichA wrote:
>> > Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
>> >
>> > https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597
>> It speeds up as it falls toward the sun well enough but then it slows
>> down again as it climbs back out of the gravitational potential.
>>
>> There is no free lunch! You have to chase a gas giant in *orbit* around
>> the sun to get a slingshot acceleration. The probe steals a small amount
>> of momentum and energy off the moving planetary target as it goes past.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Martin Brown
>
>That's too bad. I figured if it used Jupiter, it could have used the Sun to the same effect.

It's a different effect. It's why no body in orbit around the Sun can
be ejected from the Solar System, no matter how close to the Sun it
gets in its orbit, or how fast it is going at perihelion.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:49 UTC

On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 7:14:16 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:

> It's a different effect. It's why no body in orbit around the Sun can
> be ejected from the Solar System, no matter how close to the Sun it
> gets in its orbit, or how fast it is going at perihelion.

Yes, absolutely. One can't use the Sun to accelerate a spaceship the way Jupiter or even
Mars could be.

The radiation around Jupiter limits how close a spaceship can get to Jupiter, and thus
how much of a slingshot effect one can get from it, but planets without that problem are
much smaller rocky planets.

If, through a slingshot effect with any planet, in addition to getting a modest speed-up
for a space probe, we changed its orbit around the Sun to a retrograde one, then the
difference in velocities between the probe and the next planet it might encounter would
be much greater, perhaps allowing for a second slingshot effect to be much larger?

That probably still wouldn't be enough for any practical interstellar mission, though,
for the reason you initially noted. Some probes have been launched with a fairly
small rocket, using multiple slingshot encounters with Earth to build up enough speed
to go out to Jupiter, which you can do if you're not in a hurry, so no doubt there are
untapped possibilities available.

John Savard

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
From: rander3...@gmail.com (RichA)
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 by: RichA - Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:40 UTC

On Wednesday, 22 December 2021 at 09:14:16 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 14:47:15 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 at 15:41:53 UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
> >> On 21/12/2021 10:04, RichA wrote:
> >> > Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
> >> >
> >> > https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597
> >> It speeds up as it falls toward the sun well enough but then it slows
> >> down again as it climbs back out of the gravitational potential.
> >>
> >> There is no free lunch! You have to chase a gas giant in *orbit* around
> >> the sun to get a slingshot acceleration. The probe steals a small amount
> >> of momentum and energy off the moving planetary target as it goes past.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >> Martin Brown
> >
> >That's too bad. I figured if it used Jupiter, it could have used the Sun to the same effect.
> It's a different effect. It's why no body in orbit around the Sun can
> be ejected from the Solar System, no matter how close to the Sun it
> gets in its orbit, or how fast it is going at perihelion.

So how much engine power would a probe like Parker need to simply break solar orbit when it had reached a speed of 430,000mph?

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Thu, 23 Dec 2021 00:50 UTC

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:40:48 -0800 (PST), RichA <rander3128@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, 22 December 2021 at 09:14:16 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 14:47:15 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 at 15:41:53 UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
>> >> On 21/12/2021 10:04, RichA wrote:
>> >> > Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
>> >> >
>> >> > https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597
>> >> It speeds up as it falls toward the sun well enough but then it slows
>> >> down again as it climbs back out of the gravitational potential.
>> >>
>> >> There is no free lunch! You have to chase a gas giant in *orbit* around
>> >> the sun to get a slingshot acceleration. The probe steals a small amount
>> >> of momentum and energy off the moving planetary target as it goes past.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Martin Brown
>> >
>> >That's too bad. I figured if it used Jupiter, it could have used the Sun to the same effect.
>> It's a different effect. It's why no body in orbit around the Sun can
>> be ejected from the Solar System, no matter how close to the Sun it
>> gets in its orbit, or how fast it is going at perihelion.
>
>So how much engine power would a probe like Parker need to simply break solar orbit when it had reached a speed of 430,000mph?

A lot. Escape velocity near the Sun's surface is about 600 km/s. The
probe only got up to about 200 km/s. So to escape from the Solar
System would require a delta-V of 400 km/s. How much energy that
requires depends on the mass of the probe.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
From: rander3...@gmail.com (RichA)
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 by: RichA - Thu, 23 Dec 2021 03:03 UTC

On Wednesday, 22 December 2021 at 19:50:44 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:40:48 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, 22 December 2021 at 09:14:16 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> >> On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 14:47:15 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 at 15:41:53 UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
> >> >> On 21/12/2021 10:04, RichA wrote:
> >> >> > Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597
> >> >> It speeds up as it falls toward the sun well enough but then it slows
> >> >> down again as it climbs back out of the gravitational potential.
> >> >>
> >> >> There is no free lunch! You have to chase a gas giant in *orbit* around
> >> >> the sun to get a slingshot acceleration. The probe steals a small amount
> >> >> of momentum and energy off the moving planetary target as it goes past.
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> Martin Brown
> >> >
> >> >That's too bad. I figured if it used Jupiter, it could have used the Sun to the same effect.
> >> It's a different effect. It's why no body in orbit around the Sun can
> >> be ejected from the Solar System, no matter how close to the Sun it
> >> gets in its orbit, or how fast it is going at perihelion.
> >
> >So how much engine power would a probe like Parker need to simply break solar orbit when it had reached a speed of 430,000mph?
> A lot. Escape velocity near the Sun's surface is about 600 km/s. The
> probe only got up to about 200 km/s. So to escape from the Solar
> System would require a delta-V of 400 km/s. How much energy that
> requires depends on the mass of the probe.

We are definitely stuck in neutral with limitations of chemical rockets.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

<n519sg9qkgissu3ce5bq5fl88r21s1memp@4ax.com>

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
Message-ID: <n519sg9qkgissu3ce5bq5fl88r21s1memp@4ax.com>
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:17 UTC

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 19:03:28 -0800 (PST), RichA <rander3128@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, 22 December 2021 at 19:50:44 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:40:48 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, 22 December 2021 at 09:14:16 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 14:47:15 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >On Tuesday, 21 December 2021 at 15:41:53 UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
>> >> >> On 21/12/2021 10:04, RichA wrote:
>> >> >> > Rather than rely on a rinky-dink sling-shot from Jupiter and a 140 year time-frame, why not re-inforce it with a dispensable heat shield, sling it around the sun like the Parker probe and give it a 350,000mph speed?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-59725597
>> >> >> It speeds up as it falls toward the sun well enough but then it slows
>> >> >> down again as it climbs back out of the gravitational potential.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There is no free lunch! You have to chase a gas giant in *orbit* around
>> >> >> the sun to get a slingshot acceleration. The probe steals a small amount
>> >> >> of momentum and energy off the moving planetary target as it goes past.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Regards,
>> >> >> Martin Brown
>> >> >
>> >> >That's too bad. I figured if it used Jupiter, it could have used the Sun to the same effect.
>> >> It's a different effect. It's why no body in orbit around the Sun can
>> >> be ejected from the Solar System, no matter how close to the Sun it
>> >> gets in its orbit, or how fast it is going at perihelion.
>> >
>> >So how much engine power would a probe like Parker need to simply break solar orbit when it had reached a speed of 430,000mph?
>> A lot. Escape velocity near the Sun's surface is about 600 km/s. The
>> probe only got up to about 200 km/s. So to escape from the Solar
>> System would require a delta-V of 400 km/s. How much energy that
>> requires depends on the mass of the probe.
>
>We are definitely stuck in neutral with limitations of chemical rockets.

The only viable candidate is some kind of ion drive. But you're still
talking hundreds or thousands of years for interstellar trips. And
massive technological advances and social changes.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
From: hitl...@yahoo.com (Gary Harnagel)
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 by: Gary Harnagel - Mon, 27 Dec 2021 13:14 UTC

On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 7:17:58 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 19:03:28 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > We are definitely stuck in neutral with limitations of chemical rockets.
>
> The only viable candidate is some kind of ion drive. But you're still
> talking hundreds or thousands of years for interstellar trips. And
> massive technological advances and social changes.

Yes, indeed. But even if we could harness a photon drive, going really fast
is very dangerous what with all the junk in the Oort cloud. At > 0.3c or so,
I don't think it would be possible to avoid an errant rock that just happened
to be in the ship's trajectory. And at 0.99c+, every splinter becomes an
effective asteroid.

I think the only way for effective interstellar travel is some new technology.
I'm not even sure Alcubierre or Natario warp drives would provide safety
from space junk. It may require some technology even beyond that.

There has been a proposal to send out thousands of gram-size probes and
power them with earth-based (or orbital) lasers. Then it wouldn't matter if
a large percentage didn't make it. Problematic for larger ships, but it may be
a way to get rid of useless humans, like telephone sanitizers :-)

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
Message-ID: <gojjsgpv9mvv3a2qi4eeq54f40jcohuk0d@4ax.com>
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:39 UTC

On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 05:14:35 -0800 (PST), Gary Harnagel
<hitlong@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 7:17:58 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 19:03:28 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > We are definitely stuck in neutral with limitations of chemical rockets.
>>
>> The only viable candidate is some kind of ion drive. But you're still
>> talking hundreds or thousands of years for interstellar trips. And
>> massive technological advances and social changes.
>
>Yes, indeed. But even if we could harness a photon drive, going really fast
>is very dangerous what with all the junk in the Oort cloud. At > 0.3c or so,
>I don't think it would be possible to avoid an errant rock that just happened
>to be in the ship's trajectory. And at 0.99c+, every splinter becomes an
>effective asteroid.
>
>I think the only way for effective interstellar travel is some new technology.
>I'm not even sure Alcubierre or Natario warp drives would provide safety
>from space junk. It may require some technology even beyond that.
>
>There has been a proposal to send out thousands of gram-size probes and
>power them with earth-based (or orbital) lasers. Then it wouldn't matter if
>a large percentage didn't make it. Problematic for larger ships, but it may be
>a way to get rid of useless humans, like telephone sanitizers :-)

I don't think the Oort cloud is necessarily the problem- large
material there is still separated by millions of kilometers. But
interplanetary and interstellar dust is something we have no idea how
to protect a spacecraft from when traveling at some fraction of c. We
also don't know how to make a complex machine that can run for a
century or several.

Some variation of sending out a swarm of lightweight, simple probes is
interesting. That's also a potential option for exploring bodies
inside our own Solar System.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

<6d0ed0e5-05a1-4be1-ab17-d0428719cd1bn@googlegroups.com>

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From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Mon, 27 Dec 2021 19:03 UTC

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 7:39:04 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> But
> interplanetary and interstellar dust is something we have no idea how
> to protect a spacecraft from when traveling at some fraction of c.

I remember at one time reading that 0.01c would be doable with foreseeable
technology, but at 0.1c dust and the like becomes a problem we have no
idea of how to deal with.

0.01c isn't great, but it could still be sufficient.

John Savard

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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
From: hitl...@yahoo.com (Gary Harnagel)
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 by: Gary Harnagel - Tue, 28 Dec 2021 00:13 UTC

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 7:39:04 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 05:14:35 -0800 (PST), Gary Harnagel
> <hit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 7:17:58 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 19:03:28 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > We are definitely stuck in neutral with limitations of chemical rockets.
> > >
> > > The only viable candidate is some kind of ion drive. But you're still
> > > talking hundreds or thousands of years for interstellar trips. And
> > > massive technological advances and social changes.
> >
> > Yes, indeed. But even if we could harness a photon drive, going really fast
> > is very dangerous what with all the junk in the Oort cloud. At > 0.3c or so,
> > I don't think it would be possible to avoid an errant rock that just happened
> > to be in the ship's trajectory. And at 0.99c+, every splinter becomes an
> > effective asteroid.
> >
> > I think the only way for effective interstellar travel is some new technology.
> > I'm not even sure Alcubierre or Natario warp drives would provide safety
> > from space junk. It may require some technology even beyond that.
> >
> > There has been a proposal to send out thousands of gram-size probes and
> > power them with earth-based (or orbital) lasers. Then it wouldn't matter if
> > a large percentage didn't make it. Problematic for larger ships, but it may be
> > a way to get rid of useless humans, like telephone sanitizers :-)
>
> I don't think the Oort cloud is necessarily the problem- large
> material there is still separated by millions of kilometers.

Yes, that's large objects like icy cometary material, but don't you think there are
smaller objects, too? And they might make up most of the mass out there.
NASA thinks the Oort cloud extends from 2000 to 5000 AU, but others think it
might extend halfway to Alpha Centauri (which means it's ALL the way there):

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/solar-system/oort-cloud/in-depth/

So with a trillion icy comets, I estimate the chances of colliding with one would
be only once in about 10e17 trips for a ship with 100 m² cross-section, but the
pebbles or dust? Does the population of masses 10 times smaller increase by
10x? What's your guess?

If the distribution is as I've assumed, the chances of hitting a 1 kg object would
be one in 10 million. At 0.3c, that would carry K.E. of half a million megajoules.
At 0.3c would be the equivalent of about 100 tonnes of TNT exploding.

So continuing the assumption,

m = 0.10 kg., Prob. = 1e-6, K. E. = 50,000 MJ
m = 0.01 kg., Prob. = 1e-5, K. E = 5,000 MJ
m = 0.001 kg., Prob. = 1e-4, K. E = 500 MJ

Unless I slipped a decimal somewhere :-)

> But interplanetary and interstellar dust is something we have no idea how
> to protect a spacecraft from when traveling at some fraction of c. We
> also don't know how to make a complex machine that can run for a
> century or several.

Solid state components, of course. Might need advances in other semiconductor
materials, like silicon carbide.

> Some variation of sending out a swarm of lightweight, simple probes is
> interesting. That's also a potential option for exploring bodies
> inside our own Solar System.

We can wait a few years to get probes to the planets, so it doesn't seem
necessary to do swarms for that. They would be useful in finding out the
Oort cloud density, though. Maybe put some wings on them to increase
their cross-section for particle detection.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Tue, 28 Dec 2021 06:05 UTC

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 2:03:35 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 7:39:04 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> > But
> > interplanetary and interstellar dust is something we have no idea how
> > to protect a spacecraft from when traveling at some fraction of c.
> I remember at one time reading that 0.01c would be doable with foreseeable

1 PSOL

> technology, but at 0.1c dust and the like becomes a problem we have no

10 PSOL

> idea of how to deal with.
>
> 0.01c isn't great, but it could still be sufficient.
>
> John Savard

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

<2f7msg9076bcnbi84aoot11bndk2r48r23@4ax.com>

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Tue, 28 Dec 2021 14:29 UTC

On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 16:13:09 -0800 (PST), Gary Harnagel
<hitlong@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 7:39:04 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 05:14:35 -0800 (PST), Gary Harnagel
>> <hit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 7:17:58 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 19:03:28 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > We are definitely stuck in neutral with limitations of chemical rockets.
>> > >
>> > > The only viable candidate is some kind of ion drive. But you're still
>> > > talking hundreds or thousands of years for interstellar trips. And
>> > > massive technological advances and social changes.
>> >
>> > Yes, indeed. But even if we could harness a photon drive, going really fast
>> > is very dangerous what with all the junk in the Oort cloud. At > 0.3c or so,
>> > I don't think it would be possible to avoid an errant rock that just happened
>> > to be in the ship's trajectory. And at 0.99c+, every splinter becomes an
>> > effective asteroid.
>> >
>> > I think the only way for effective interstellar travel is some new technology.
>> > I'm not even sure Alcubierre or Natario warp drives would provide safety
>> > from space junk. It may require some technology even beyond that.
>> >
>> > There has been a proposal to send out thousands of gram-size probes and
>> > power them with earth-based (or orbital) lasers. Then it wouldn't matter if
>> > a large percentage didn't make it. Problematic for larger ships, but it may be
>> > a way to get rid of useless humans, like telephone sanitizers :-)
>>
>> I don't think the Oort cloud is necessarily the problem- large
>> material there is still separated by millions of kilometers.
>
>Yes, that's large objects like icy cometary material, but don't you think there are
>smaller objects, too? And they might make up most of the mass out there.
>NASA thinks the Oort cloud extends from 2000 to 5000 AU, but others think it
>might extend halfway to Alpha Centauri (which means it's ALL the way there):

The Oort cloud might be dustier than local interstellar space. Or
not... it's obviously not well understood. My point was only that even
without the Oort cloud, interstellar space dust poses a big problem
for anything going fast.

>> But interplanetary and interstellar dust is something we have no idea how
>> to protect a spacecraft from when traveling at some fraction of c. We
>> also don't know how to make a complex machine that can run for a
>> century or several.
>
>Solid state components, of course. Might need advances in other semiconductor
>materials, like silicon carbide.

More than that, we need a whole different concept of reliability. We
probably need materials that can "heal" and systems that can repair
themselves. Even build new copies of themselves. Nothing to extreme
about those concepts, but a long ways away technologically...
especially given that we have little need for them elsewhere, and
therefore little motivation to develop such technology.

>> Some variation of sending out a swarm of lightweight, simple probes is
>> interesting. That's also a potential option for exploring bodies
>> inside our own Solar System.
>
>We can wait a few years to get probes to the planets, so it doesn't seem
>necessary to do swarms for that. They would be useful in finding out the
>Oort cloud density, though. Maybe put some wings on them to increase
>their cross-section for particle detection.

The advantage of swarms of simple probes is that they are inexpensive
and you can tolerate a lot of failures. It will take centuries to
really explore Mars (or any other planet) with a multi-billion dollar
mission every few years. Instead, we could drop 10,000 little
specialized drones all across its surface over just a few years and
get a much broader range of information.

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

<sql20g$117n$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: kengels....@realKeP20vens.house (fred k. engels®)
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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 11:41:02 -0800
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 by: fred k. engels® - Thu, 30 Dec 2021 19:41 UTC

Prime Minister Justin Blackface just tweeted
So, How's that pretty picture astro photography horseshit® working out for
ya?
The Iranian Hostage Makers have just launched another massive spy satellite
into
orbit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxSvJU2X8Iw&t=74s

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

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Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Fri, 31 Dec 2021 15:05 UTC

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 7:29:36 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:

> More than that, we need a whole different concept of reliability. We
> probably need materials that can "heal" and systems that can repair
> themselves. Even build new copies of themselves. Nothing to extreme
> about those concepts, but a long ways away technologically...
> especially given that we have little need for them elsewhere, and
> therefore little motivation to develop such technology.

I'm not entirely sure about that last bit.

After all, the attributes you are describing are characteristic of
biological systems. As there is considerable motivation to
engage in research with medical applications, it's possible something
applicable might come from that direction.

John Savard

Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe

<488usg9kvub3421fs694bmtt4htvns732m@4ax.com>

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: New proposed inter-stellar probe
Message-ID: <488usg9kvub3421fs694bmtt4htvns732m@4ax.com>
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Fri, 31 Dec 2021 15:27 UTC

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 07:05:25 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 7:29:36 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>
>> More than that, we need a whole different concept of reliability. We
>> probably need materials that can "heal" and systems that can repair
>> themselves. Even build new copies of themselves. Nothing to extreme
>> about those concepts, but a long ways away technologically...
>> especially given that we have little need for them elsewhere, and
>> therefore little motivation to develop such technology.
>
>I'm not entirely sure about that last bit.
>
>After all, the attributes you are describing are characteristic of
>biological systems. As there is considerable motivation to
>engage in research with medical applications, it's possible something
>applicable might come from that direction.

Are you suggesting artificial biological control systems? Sure, that's
a possibility. But again, it's something we're very far from, and not
a major area of research AFAIK.

1
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rocksolid light 0.9.7
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