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tech / sci.astro.amateur / So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

SubjectAuthor
* So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedRichA
`* Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedStarDust
 `* Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedChris L Peterson
  +* Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedStarDust
  |`- Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedJos Bergervoet
  `* Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedMartin Brown
   +- Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedStarDust
   +- Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedChris L Peterson
   +* Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedJos Bergervoet
   |`- Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedMartin Brown
   `* Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedQuadibloc
    +* Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedChris L Peterson
    |`- Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedRichA
    `* Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedpalsing
     `* Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedQuadibloc
      `- Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hopedQuadibloc

1
So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

<b96bfd74-030c-4a19-8506-a03c6b18037bn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
From: rander3...@gmail.com (RichA)
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 by: RichA - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 14:45 UTC

Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
From: csok...@gmail.com (StarDust)
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 by: StarDust - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 19:07 UTC

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 6:45:09 AM UTC-8, RichA wrote:
> Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.

Hubble was the same way, until they started using it.

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
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References: <b96bfd74-030c-4a19-8506-a03c6b18037bn@googlegroups.com> <03ee9880-1560-4f95-b7ed-c71f982e61fdn@googlegroups.com>
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 23:37 UTC

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:07:41 -0800 (PST), StarDust <csoka01@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 6:45:09 AM UTC-8, RichA wrote:
>> Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.
>
>Hubble was the same way, until they started using it.

The HST optics were not tested on the ground. These were.

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

<74bf73bd-7202-4037-a502-9b382c236fccn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
From: csok...@gmail.com (StarDust)
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 by: StarDust - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 05:57 UTC

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 3:37:25 PM UTC-8, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:07:41 -0800 (PST),
> wrote:
> >On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 6:45:09 AM UTC-8, RichA wrote:
> >> Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.
> >
> >Hubble was the same way, until they started using it.
> The HST optics were not tested on the ground. These were.

I guess, they learned something!
Far as I know, the instrument used for testing the optics of Hubble were calibrated wrong, so it gave a false result!
That's why Hubble had astigmatism, which was corrected later!

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

<srblkc$8pp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:30:51 +0000
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 by: Martin Brown - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:30 UTC

On 07/01/2022 23:37, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:07:41 -0800 (PST), StarDust <csoka01@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 6:45:09 AM UTC-8, RichA wrote:
>>> Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.
>>
>> Hubble was the same way, until they started using it.
>
> The HST optics were not tested on the ground. These were.

How did they do that?

I would have thought that gravity would distort the thing way too much
to be able to do full scale imaging tests of the whole telescope.
Obviously you can test each of the individual segments.

The HST optics were tested on the ground with an esoteric precision
reference test jig. The problem was that there was a systematic error in
how that component had been assembled. It was an unfortunate case of not
fully understanding the difference between precision and accuracy.

The HST primary was very precisely figured and polished to exactly the
wrong shape - thanks to that fundamental error in the reference jig.

The spare HST mirror was made correctly by an independent contractor
Eastman Kodak.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

<24d0523b-8684-4472-982c-bb74595303adn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
From: csok...@gmail.com (StarDust)
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 by: StarDust - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 10:07 UTC

On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 1:30:55 AM UTC-8, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 07/01/2022 23:37, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> > On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:07:41 -0800 (PST),
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 6:45:09 AM UTC-8, RichA wrote:
> >>> Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.
> >>
> >> Hubble was the same way, until they started using it.
> >
> > The HST optics were not tested on the ground. These were.
> How did they do that?
>
> I would have thought that gravity would distort the thing way too much
> to be able to do full scale imaging tests of the whole telescope.
> Obviously you can test each of the individual segments.
>
> The HST optics were tested on the ground with an esoteric precision
> reference test jig. The problem was that there was a systematic error in
> how that component had been assembled. It was an unfortunate case of not
> fully understanding the difference between precision and accuracy.
>
> The HST primary was very precisely figured and polished to exactly the
> wrong shape - thanks to that fundamental error in the reference jig.
>
> The spare HST mirror was made correctly by an independent contractor
> Eastman Kodak.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

I worked in Aerospace 12 years,
but sometimes I had this feeling, it's a pyramid of dummies running the show!

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
Message-ID: <777jtghtlrg4jhurf341kmj1ja64vocdtq@4ax.com>
References: <b96bfd74-030c-4a19-8506-a03c6b18037bn@googlegroups.com> <03ee9880-1560-4f95-b7ed-c71f982e61fdn@googlegroups.com> <skjhtgllfprvh8dk573uhrqlt29lv2rv19@4ax.com> <srblkc$8pp$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 14:18 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:30:51 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 07/01/2022 23:37, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:07:41 -0800 (PST), StarDust <csoka01@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 6:45:09 AM UTC-8, RichA wrote:
>>>> Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.
>>>
>>> Hubble was the same way, until they started using it.
>>
>> The HST optics were not tested on the ground. These were.
>
>How did they do that?
>
>I would have thought that gravity would distort the thing way too much
>to be able to do full scale imaging tests of the whole telescope.
>Obviously you can test each of the individual segments.
>
>The HST optics were tested on the ground with an esoteric precision
>reference test jig. The problem was that there was a systematic error in
>how that component had been assembled. It was an unfortunate case of not
>fully understanding the difference between precision and accuracy.
>
>The HST primary was very precisely figured and polished to exactly the
>wrong shape - thanks to that fundamental error in the reference jig.
>
>The spare HST mirror was made correctly by an independent contractor
>Eastman Kodak.

I'm not sure. Read about the details on some site a year or so ago.
The optics were bench tested as a complete assembly. That's what was
not done with the HST, where each element was tested separately.

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

<nnd$612f573a$438412ff@90665d84b063ed99>

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From: jos.berg...@xs4all.nl (Jos Bergervoet)
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:51:30 +0100
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 by: Jos Bergervoet - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 16:51 UTC

On 22/01/08 6:57 AM, StarDust wrote:
> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 3:37:25 PM UTC-8, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:07:41 -0800 (PST),
>> wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 6:45:09 AM UTC-8, RichA wrote:
>>>> Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.
>>>
>>> Hubble was the same way, until they started using it.
>> The HST optics were not tested on the ground. These were.
>
> I guess, they learned something!
> Far as I know, the instrument used for testing the optics of Hubble were calibrated wrong, so it gave a false result!
> That's why Hubble had astigmatism,

Really? I thought it only had spherical abberation. For astigmatism
something woud have to be off-axis, or in some other way not
rotationally symmetric.. I don't think that was the problem.

--
Jos

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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From: jos.berg...@xs4all.nl (Jos Bergervoet)
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:55:45 +0100
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 by: Jos Bergervoet - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 16:55 UTC

On 22/01/08 10:30 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 07/01/2022 23:37, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:07:41 -0800 (PST), StarDust <csoka01@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 6:45:09 AM UTC-8, RichA wrote:
>>>> Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.
>>>
>>> Hubble was the same way, until they started using it.
>>
>> The HST optics were not tested on the ground. These were.
>
> How did they do that?
>
> I would have thought that gravity would distort the thing way too much
> to be able to do full scale imaging tests of the whole telescope.
> Obviously you can test each of the individual segments.
>
> The HST optics were tested on the ground with an esoteric precision
> reference test jig. The problem was that there was a systematic error in
> how that component had been assembled. It was an unfortunate case of not
> fully understanding the difference between precision and accuracy.
>
> The HST primary was very precisely figured and polished to exactly the
> wrong shape - thanks to that fundamental error in the reference jig.
>
> The spare HST mirror was made correctly by an independent contractor
> Eastman Kodak.

Then why didn't they see an error in the spare?! That would have
undoubtedly led to a denial by E. Kodak and then the whole analysis
would have resulted in using the spare instead of the wrong one, I
would imagine..

--
Jos

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 01:10 UTC

On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 2:30:55 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:

> The spare HST mirror was made correctly by an independent contractor
> Eastman Kodak.

The reason the HST mirror was tested only one way, which turned out to
yield incorrect results, was because it was being made in a highly classified
facility also used to make spy satellites.

It's a pity there wasn't the budget to put up a second Hubble using the
Eastman mirror, as it would have performed better, and I'm sure
astronomers would have appreciated the extra scope time. It's not as
if two Hubbles would have cost twice as much, so it would have been
a bargain.

John Savard

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 04:41 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:10:32 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 2:30:55 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> The spare HST mirror was made correctly by an independent contractor
>> Eastman Kodak.
>
>The reason the HST mirror was tested only one way, which turned out to
>yield incorrect results, was because it was being made in a highly classified
>facility also used to make spy satellites.
>
>It's a pity there wasn't the budget to put up a second Hubble using the
>Eastman mirror, as it would have performed better, and I'm sure
>astronomers would have appreciated the extra scope time. It's not as
>if two Hubbles would have cost twice as much, so it would have been
>a bargain.

All the sadder considering that the repair job cost as much as another
HST would have. And all the repairs could have paid for several.

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
From: pnals...@gmail.com (palsing)
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 by: palsing - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 05:13 UTC

On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 5:10:33 PM UTC-8, Quadibloc wrote:

> It's a pity there wasn't the budget to put up a second Hubble using the
> Eastman mirror, as it would have performed better, and I'm sure
> astronomers would have appreciated the extra scope time. It's not as
> if two Hubbles would have cost twice as much, so it would have been
> a bargain.

Is it too late? :>)

Whatever happened to that mirror?

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
From: rander3...@gmail.com (RichA)
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 by: RichA - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 06:45 UTC

On Saturday, 8 January 2022 at 23:41:18 UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:10:32 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
> >On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 2:30:55 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:
> >
> >> The spare HST mirror was made correctly by an independent contractor
> >> Eastman Kodak.
> >
> >The reason the HST mirror was tested only one way, which turned out to
> >yield incorrect results, was because it was being made in a highly classified
> >facility also used to make spy satellites.
> >
> >It's a pity there wasn't the budget to put up a second Hubble using the
> >Eastman mirror, as it would have performed better, and I'm sure
> >astronomers would have appreciated the extra scope time. It's not as
> >if two Hubbles would have cost twice as much, so it would have been
> >a bargain.
> All the sadder considering that the repair job cost as much as another
> HST would have. And all the repairs could have paid for several.

Still about 1/100th the cost of the ISS p.o.s. and 1000x more productives.

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 18:43 UTC

On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 10:13:59 PM UTC-7, palsing wrote:

> Is it too late? :>)

Well, they don't have the Space Shuttle any longer.

> Whatever happened to that mirror?

It's in the Smithsonian. If it wasn't for the pandemic, you could go and see it.

John Savard

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 18:47 UTC

On Sunday, January 9, 2022 at 11:43:39 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 10:13:59 PM UTC-7, palsing wrote:
>
> > Is it too late? :>)

> Well, they don't have the Space Shuttle any longer.

> > Whatever happened to that mirror?

> It's in the Smithsonian. If it wasn't for the pandemic, you could go and see it.

Here you are:

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/mirror-primary-backup-hubble-space-telescope/nasm_A20010288000

John Savard

Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: So far, Webb has apparently worked as hoped
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 09:55:26 +0000
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 by: Martin Brown - Mon, 10 Jan 2022 09:55 UTC

On 08/01/2022 16:55, Jos Bergervoet wrote:
> On 22/01/08 10:30 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 07/01/2022 23:37, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:07:41 -0800 (PST), StarDust <csoka01@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 6:45:09 AM UTC-8, RichA wrote:
>>>>> Put out its heat/light shield and has extended the secondary mirror.
>>>>
>>>> Hubble was the same way, until they started using it.
>>>
>>> The HST optics were not tested on the ground. These were.
>>
>> How did they do that?
>>
>> I would have thought that gravity would distort the thing way too much
>> to be able to do full scale imaging tests of the whole telescope.
>> Obviously you can test each of the individual segments.
>>
>> The HST optics were tested on the ground with an esoteric precision
>> reference test jig. The problem was that there was a systematic error
>> in how that component had been assembled. It was an unfortunate case
>> of not fully understanding the difference between precision and accuracy.
>>
>> The HST primary was very precisely figured and polished to exactly the
>> wrong shape - thanks to that fundamental error in the reference jig.
>>
>> The spare HST mirror was made correctly by an independent contractor
>> Eastman Kodak.
>
> Then why didn't they see an error in the spare?! That would have

The spare was made entirely separately no testing methods shared.
Kodak's simpler test was less precise but correct.

> undoubtedly led to a denial by E. Kodak and then the whole analysis
> would have resulted in using the spare instead of the wrong one, I
> would imagine..

The method for finding out what was wrong with it once the fault was
discovered when it had first light was devised at Jodrell bank for
figuring the panels on their big radio dish to a perfect parabola.

The same holographic phase method will also be used to fine tune this
set of mirror segments on Webb into the final imaging array.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

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