On 2/25/23 12:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 12:38:33 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2/25/23 11:44 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2/25/23 7:12 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/24/23 8:34 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 5:13:53 PM UTC+1, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I use conti gp5000 25 mm and I get at least 5000 miles sometimes 6000
>>>>>>>> on a set. The price is around $125 for a pair, no complaints with that kind of mileage.
>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now you mentioned it I am still on my first GP5000 32 mm front tire and
>>>>>>> my second rear tire on my gravel bike after 15000 road km.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't have any mountains to write home about but we do. Some roads
>>>>>> must be climbed standing in the pedals. I think that makes a huge
>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About 40 years ago I lived in the southern part of the Netherlands. When
>>>>>> I cycled mostly there or in Germany tires lasted a bit longer. When I
>>>>>> cycled a lot in the hilly section of Belgium they wore down faster. The
>>>>>> roads there were much worse, too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then there is rider weight and cargo. I currently weigh 198lbs or 90kg.
>>>>>> The bike with the usual load is another 40lbs or 18kg.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I lived at the bottom of the highest Dutch "mountain" which measured a
>>>>>> whopping 322.5 meters or so. They really insisted on that fraction of a
>>>>>> meter :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> I’d assume it’s more the abrasive surfaces the bike parks (MTB) for example
>>>>> are much more abrasive surfaces plus more frequent braking vs more natural
>>>>> trails which if anything flow better.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My MTB rear tires never last more than 800mi, depending on terrain.
>>>> Since $50 tires didn't last any longer I now make sure I never pay more
>>>> than $25. So far the best price per mile came out of tires from
>>>> Thailand, MTB as well as road bike.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Most of my MTB riding is not man made bike trails now, which is much less
>>> hard on the tires hence I get a fair bit more 1500 ish.
>>>
>>> Ie it’s often softer squishy stuff, rather than rocky stuff like trail
>>> Centres or even rocky more natural stuff I suspect that the rocky trails
>>> around Tenerife with the volcanic rock would display fairly rapidly wear
>>> rates.
>>>
>>> Some manufactures have Bike Park editions of their tyres for that reason.
>>>
>> For us a rocky trail is the only safely bikeable connection between here
>> and Placerville (east, towards Lake Tahoe). It could be considered
>> man-made but is more of a trail that kind of "happened", and then became
>> an official trail. I've met MTB commuters on it.
>>
>> My MTB is modified at the back so it can take a little cargo, similar to
>> adventure motorcycles but smaller.
>>
>> [...]
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> Remember when most of the trails were made by deer? THAT was trail riding.
>

I use some of those. They aren't particularly rough but they are also
used by other animals who let off big steaming piles and the front wheel
flings that up. Forgot which event but it made a lot of riders sick.
Turned out they had mounted a 2nd bottle underneath the downtube and ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2/25/2023 2:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I suspect that when comparing the same tire under different conditions,
>> the biggest factor in tire wear is the amount of work done by traction.
>> IOW, the same person on the same bike must wear a rear tire faster if he
>> climbs a lot rather than riding on flats; or if he rides faster rather
>> than slower. Pushing harder wears the rubber faster.
>>
>> Here's why. The rubber in contact with the pavement is flexible. The
>> harder the rubber pushes rearward on the pavement, the more the rubber
>> in contact and immediately above must flex toward the front, because of
>> that driving force.
>>
>> But when a particular point in the rubber leaves the pavement, the force
>> is removed. The rubber flexes back to its unstressed position. As it
>> does that it abrades against the pavement. That causes microscopic wear.
>>
>> Repeat a few hundred thousand times, and you've got measurable tire
>> wear. And again, the bigger the force, the bigger the flex, the bigger
>> the recovery motion and the bigger the wear.
>>
>> Surface smoothness or roughness also figures in, but in any case I think
>> that's the detailed mechanism.
>>
> Doesn’t seem to pan out like that, ie the fast folks at the club who tend
> to ride faster and hills as well fitter don’t seem to go through
tyres any
> faster than the more socially minded folks.

I wonder if the fitter and faster riders are also lighter riders. The
thrust, and I presume wear, necessary to get a light and fast rider up a
hill may be no more than that required to get a heavy slow rider up a hill.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 9:34:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 11:48:02 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 8:21:35 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 10:10:51 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> > > > On 2/25/23 7:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 9:45:03 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> > > > >> On 2/24/23 8:34 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > >>> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 5:13:53 PM UTC+1, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > > > >> [...]
> > > > >>>> I use conti gp5000 25 mm and I get at least 5000 miles sometimes 6000 on a set. The price is around $125 for a pair, no complaints with that kind of mileage.
> > > > >>>> Deacon Mark
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Now you mentioned it I am still on my first GP5000 32 mm front tire and my second rear tire on my gravel bike after 15000 road km.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> You don't have any mountains to write home about but we do. Some roads
> > > > >> must be climbed standing in the pedals. I think that makes a huge
> > > > >> difference.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> About 40 years ago I lived in the southern part of the Netherlands. When
> > > > >> I cycled mostly there or in Germany tires lasted a bit longer. When I
> > > > >> cycled a lot in the hilly section of Belgium they wore down faster. The
> > > > >> roads there were much worse, too.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Then there is rider weight and cargo. I currently weigh 198lbs or 90kg.
> > > > >> The bike with the usual load is another 40lbs or 18kg.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I lived at the bottom of the highest Dutch "mountain" which measured a
> > > > >> whopping 322.5 meters or so. They really insisted on that fraction of a
> > > > >> meter :-)
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Regards, Joerg
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> > > > > Very many teams us GP5000 tubulars in Paris-Roubaix And they throw them away after one race. Why are we supposed to believe that hill rides on very rough pavement isn't supposed to effect tire milage?
> > > > >
> > > > That's because those guys do not care about cost. They don't pay,
> > > > sponsors or teams do. In automotive it's even more extreme where the
> > > > whole engine gets taken out after a single race.
> > > > --
> > > > Regards, Joerg
> > > >
> > > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> > > There is that of course but would YOU want to ride a set of tubulars that had just finished Paris-Roubaix? Roger seemed to have the idea that they were using tubeless tires. Maybe someone experimented with them but tubeless do get punctures and then NOTHING holds them in place on the rims So everyone is still using tubulars because if you get a flat you don't have the tire moving about on the rim.
> > A lot of riders use(d) tubeless tires in the last two editions.
> I don't think "a lot" because the announcers made a point of mentioning the people that did. Jagged edge cobbles make flats and tubeless tires CAN come off the rims with a blowout from these. You probably haven't had that problem considering the quality of you roads but I did. Carbon wheels didn't seal particularly well and there would be a lot of sealant between the rim and the tire which allowed the tire to move around.

Did you ride the cobbles of PR? I did (some of them).
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike/paris-roubaix-tech-trends/

Lou

On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 2:32:50 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 9:34:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 11:48:02 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 8:21:35 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 10:10:51 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> > > > > On 2/25/23 7:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 9:45:03 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> > > > > >> On 2/24/23 8:34 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > >>> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 5:13:53 PM UTC+1, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > > > > >> [...]
> > > > > >>>> I use conti gp5000 25 mm and I get at least 5000 miles sometimes 6000 on a set. The price is around $125 for a pair, no complaints with that kind of mileage.
> > > > > >>>> Deacon Mark
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Now you mentioned it I am still on my first GP5000 32 mm front tire and my second rear tire on my gravel bike after 15000 road km.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >> You don't have any mountains to write home about but we do. Some roads
> > > > > >> must be climbed standing in the pedals. I think that makes a huge
> > > > > >> difference.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> About 40 years ago I lived in the southern part of the Netherlands. When
> > > > > >> I cycled mostly there or in Germany tires lasted a bit longer. When I
> > > > > >> cycled a lot in the hilly section of Belgium they wore down faster. The
> > > > > >> roads there were much worse, too.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Then there is rider weight and cargo. I currently weigh 198lbs or 90kg.
> > > > > >> The bike with the usual load is another 40lbs or 18kg.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I lived at the bottom of the highest Dutch "mountain" which measured a
> > > > > >> whopping 322.5 meters or so. They really insisted on that fraction of a
> > > > > >> meter :-)
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> Regards, Joerg
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> > > > > > Very many teams us GP5000 tubulars in Paris-Roubaix And they throw them away after one race. Why are we supposed to believe that hill rides on very rough pavement isn't supposed to effect tire milage?
> > > > > >
> > > > > That's because those guys do not care about cost. They don't pay,
> > > > > sponsors or teams do. In automotive it's even more extreme where the
> > > > > whole engine gets taken out after a single race.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards, Joerg
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> > > > There is that of course but would YOU want to ride a set of tubulars that had just finished Paris-Roubaix? Roger seemed to have the idea that they were using tubeless tires. Maybe someone experimented with them but tubeless do get punctures and then NOTHING holds them in place on the rims So everyone is still using tubulars because if you get a flat you don't have the tire moving about on the rim.
> > > A lot of riders use(d) tubeless tires in the last two editions.
> > I don't think "a lot" because the announcers made a point of mentioning the people that did. Jagged edge cobbles make flats and tubeless tires CAN come off the rims with a blowout from these. You probably haven't had that problem considering the quality of you roads but I did. Carbon wheels didn't seal particularly well and there would be a lot of sealant between the rim and the tire which allowed the tire to move around.
> Did you ride the cobbles of PR? I did (some of them).
> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike/paris-roubaix-tech-trends/

Remember I was complaining about the roads here despite paying an extra 12 cents per gallon to repair them? Because of the condition the roads were left in (that is 1.565 Trillion dollars per year) and they weren't even bothering to fill potholes. But they DID use that money to give themselves substantial raises. "In 2019, California state government workers earned an average of $143,000 per year, while local government employees earned nearly as much, averaging about $131,000 annually. But California’s private sector workers earned about $71,000, roughly half as much as their public sector counterparts. These figures include base pay, as well as overtime, and the value of non-wage benefits, such as employer pension/retirement contributions, health care, and paid days off."

Potholes are as bad or worse than the average cobbles of Paris-Roubaix which aren't that awful on the whole. There are only two or three sections of cobbles that earn Paris-Roubaix its reputation. In Paris itself on the finishing route of the Tour de France there is a section of cobbles that is smoother than the adjoining asphalt. Or at least there was when I was there for Amstrong's third win.

Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 2/25/23 12:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 12:38:33 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2/25/23 11:44 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2/25/23 7:12 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/24/23 8:34 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 5:13:53 PM UTC+1, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I use conti gp5000 25 mm and I get at least 5000 miles sometimes 6000
>>>>>>>>> on a set. The price is around $125 for a pair, no complaints with
>>>>>>>>> that kind of mileage.
>>>>>>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now you mentioned it I am still on my first GP5000 32 mm front tire and
>>>>>>>> my second rear tire on my gravel bike after 15000 road km.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You don't have any mountains to write home about but we do. Some roads
>>>>>>> must be climbed standing in the pedals. I think that makes a huge
>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About 40 years ago I lived in the southern part of the Netherlands. When
>>>>>>> I cycled mostly there or in Germany tires lasted a bit longer. When I
>>>>>>> cycled a lot in the hilly section of Belgium they wore down faster. The
>>>>>>> roads there were much worse, too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then there is rider weight and cargo. I currently weigh 198lbs or 90kg.
>>>>>>> The bike with the usual load is another 40lbs or 18kg.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I lived at the bottom of the highest Dutch "mountain" which measured a
>>>>>>> whopping 322.5 meters or so. They really insisted on that fraction of a
>>>>>>> meter :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d assume it’s more the abrasive surfaces the bike parks (MTB) for example
>>>>>> are much more abrasive surfaces plus more frequent braking vs more natural
>>>>>> trails which if anything flow better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My MTB rear tires never last more than 800mi, depending on terrain.
>>>>> Since $50 tires didn't last any longer I now make sure I never pay more
>>>>> than $25. So far the best price per mile came out of tires from
>>>>> Thailand, MTB as well as road bike.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Most of my MTB riding is not man made bike trails now, which is much less
>>>> hard on the tires hence I get a fair bit more 1500 ish.
>>>>
>>>> Ie it’s often softer squishy stuff, rather than rocky stuff like trail
>>>> Centres or even rocky more natural stuff I suspect that the rocky trails
>>>> around Tenerife with the volcanic rock would display fairly rapidly wear
>>>> rates.
>>>>
>>>> Some manufactures have Bike Park editions of their tyres for that reason.
>>>>
>>> For us a rocky trail is the only safely bikeable connection between here
>>> and Placerville (east, towards Lake Tahoe). It could be considered
>>> man-made but is more of a trail that kind of "happened", and then became
>>> an official trail. I've met MTB commuters on it.
>>>
>>> My MTB is modified at the back so it can take a little cargo, similar to
>>> adventure motorcycles but smaller.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> --
>>> Regards, Joerg
>>>
>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>> Remember when most of the trails were made by deer? THAT was trail riding.
>>
>
> I use some of those. They aren't particularly rough but they are also
> used by other animals who let off big steaming piles and the front wheel
> flings that up. Forgot which event but it made a lot of riders sick.
> Turned out they had mounted a 2nd bottle underneath the downtube and ...
>
Bottles with caps seems wise! And I’ve used similar for few decades for
that reason not that it’s ever happened but well vomiting bugs are
generally on my list of things to avoid!

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/25/2023 2:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I suspect that when comparing the same tire under different conditions,
>>> the biggest factor in tire wear is the amount of work done by traction.
>>> IOW, the same person on the same bike must wear a rear tire faster if he
>>> climbs a lot rather than riding on flats; or if he rides faster rather
>>> than slower. Pushing harder wears the rubber faster.
>>>
>>> Here's why. The rubber in contact with the pavement is flexible. The
>>> harder the rubber pushes rearward on the pavement, the more the rubber
>>> in contact and immediately above must flex toward the front, because of
>>> that driving force.
>>>
>>> But when a particular point in the rubber leaves the pavement, the force
>>> is removed. The rubber flexes back to its unstressed position. As it
>>> does that it abrades against the pavement. That causes microscopic wear.
>>>
>>> Repeat a few hundred thousand times, and you've got measurable tire
>>> wear. And again, the bigger the force, the bigger the flex, the bigger
>>> the recovery motion and the bigger the wear.
>>>
>>> Surface smoothness or roughness also figures in, but in any case I think
>>> that's the detailed mechanism.
>>>
>> Doesn’t seem to pan out like that, ie the fast folks at the club who tend
>> to ride faster and hills as well fitter don’t seem to go through
> tyres any
>> faster than the more socially minded folks.
>
> I wonder if the fitter and faster riders are also lighter riders. The
> thrust, and I presume wear, necessary to get a light and fast rider up a
> hill may be no more than that required to get a heavy slow rider up a hill.
>
Not particularly, some are they have the rather light roadie frames but the
club has plenty of fit fast guys and gals who are rowers ie large chaps.

Like most things in life it’s almost certainly more complex than first
thought, and will be number of variables hence seem to get a range of life
spans see also chains!

Roger Merriman

On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:53:59 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 2:32:50 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 9:34:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 11:48:02 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 8:21:35 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 10:10:51 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> > > > > > On 2/25/23 7:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 9:45:03 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> > > > > > >> On 2/24/23 8:34 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > >>> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 5:13:53 PM UTC+1, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > > > > > >> [...]
> > > > > > >>>> I use conti gp5000 25 mm and I get at least 5000 miles sometimes 6000 on a set. The price is around $125 for a pair, no complaints with that kind of mileage.
> > > > > > >>>> Deacon Mark
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Now you mentioned it I am still on my first GP5000 32 mm front tire and my second rear tire on my gravel bike after 15000 road km.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >> You don't have any mountains to write home about but we do. Some roads
> > > > > > >> must be climbed standing in the pedals. I think that makes a huge
> > > > > > >> difference.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> About 40 years ago I lived in the southern part of the Netherlands. When
> > > > > > >> I cycled mostly there or in Germany tires lasted a bit longer. When I
> > > > > > >> cycled a lot in the hilly section of Belgium they wore down faster. The
> > > > > > >> roads there were much worse, too.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Then there is rider weight and cargo. I currently weigh 198lbs or 90kg.
> > > > > > >> The bike with the usual load is another 40lbs or 18kg.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I lived at the bottom of the highest Dutch "mountain" which measured a
> > > > > > >> whopping 322.5 meters or so. They really insisted on that fraction of a
> > > > > > >> meter :-)
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> Regards, Joerg
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> > > > > > > Very many teams us GP5000 tubulars in Paris-Roubaix And they throw them away after one race. Why are we supposed to believe that hill rides on very rough pavement isn't supposed to effect tire milage?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > That's because those guys do not care about cost. They don't pay,
> > > > > > sponsors or teams do. In automotive it's even more extreme where the
> > > > > > whole engine gets taken out after a single race.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Regards, Joerg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> > > > > There is that of course but would YOU want to ride a set of tubulars that had just finished Paris-Roubaix? Roger seemed to have the idea that they were using tubeless tires. Maybe someone experimented with them but tubeless do get punctures and then NOTHING holds them in place on the rims So everyone is still using tubulars because if you get a flat you don't have the tire moving about on the rim.
> > > > A lot of riders use(d) tubeless tires in the last two editions.
> > > I don't think "a lot" because the announcers made a point of mentioning the people that did. Jagged edge cobbles make flats and tubeless tires CAN come off the rims with a blowout from these. You probably haven't had that problem considering the quality of you roads but I did. Carbon wheels didn't seal particularly well and there would be a lot of sealant between the rim and the tire which allowed the tire to move around.
> > Did you ride the cobbles of PR? I did (some of them).
> > https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike/paris-roubaix-tech-trends/
.."
>
> Potholes are as bad or worse than the average cobbles of Paris-Roubaix which aren't that awful on the whole. There are only two or three sections of cobbles that earn Paris-Roubaix its reputation.

Pff ride them yourself wimp. Stop complaining about your potholes you can ride around them. On the cobbles you can’t. From a Dutch sport tv program a while back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PadVQq53h3I

and this was a dry edition. Look back 2021 edition.

Lou

On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:13:48 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:53:59 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 2:32:50 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 9:34:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 11:48:02 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 8:21:35 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 10:10:51 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> > > > > > > On 2/25/23 7:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 9:45:03 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On 2/24/23 8:34 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 5:13:53 PM UTC+1, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > > > > > > >> [...]
> > > > > > > >>>> I use conti gp5000 25 mm and I get at least 5000 miles sometimes 6000 on a set. The price is around $125 for a pair, no complaints with that kind of mileage.
> > > > > > > >>>> Deacon Mark
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Now you mentioned it I am still on my first GP5000 32 mm front tire and my second rear tire on my gravel bike after 15000 road km.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >> You don't have any mountains to write home about but we do.. Some roads
> > > > > > > >> must be climbed standing in the pedals. I think that makes a huge
> > > > > > > >> difference.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> About 40 years ago I lived in the southern part of the Netherlands. When
> > > > > > > >> I cycled mostly there or in Germany tires lasted a bit longer. When I
> > > > > > > >> cycled a lot in the hilly section of Belgium they wore down faster. The
> > > > > > > >> roads there were much worse, too.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Then there is rider weight and cargo. I currently weigh 198lbs or 90kg.
> > > > > > > >> The bike with the usual load is another 40lbs or 18kg.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I lived at the bottom of the highest Dutch "mountain" which measured a
> > > > > > > >> whopping 322.5 meters or so. They really insisted on that fraction of a
> > > > > > > >> meter :-)
> > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > >> Regards, Joerg
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> > > > > > > > Very many teams us GP5000 tubulars in Paris-Roubaix And they throw them away after one race. Why are we supposed to believe that hill rides on very rough pavement isn't supposed to effect tire milage?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's because those guys do not care about cost. They don't pay,
> > > > > > > sponsors or teams do. In automotive it's even more extreme where the
> > > > > > > whole engine gets taken out after a single race.
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Regards, Joerg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> > > > > > There is that of course but would YOU want to ride a set of tubulars that had just finished Paris-Roubaix? Roger seemed to have the idea that they were using tubeless tires. Maybe someone experimented with them but tubeless do get punctures and then NOTHING holds them in place on the rims So everyone is still using tubulars because if you get a flat you don't have the tire moving about on the rim.
> > > > > A lot of riders use(d) tubeless tires in the last two editions.
> > > > I don't think "a lot" because the announcers made a point of mentioning the people that did. Jagged edge cobbles make flats and tubeless tires CAN come off the rims with a blowout from these. You probably haven't had that problem considering the quality of you roads but I did. Carbon wheels didn't seal particularly well and there would be a lot of sealant between the rim and the tire which allowed the tire to move around.
> > > Did you ride the cobbles of PR? I did (some of them).
> > > https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro-bike/paris-roubaix-tech-trends/
> ."
> >
> > Potholes are as bad or worse than the average cobbles of Paris-Roubaix which aren't that awful on the whole. There are only two or three sections of cobbles that earn Paris-Roubaix its reputation.
> Pff ride them yourself wimp. Stop complaining about your potholes you can ride around them. On the cobbles you can’t. From a Dutch sport tv program a while back:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PadVQq53h3I
>
> and this was a dry edition. Look back 2021 edition.
>
> Lou

The bad sections of cobbles are perfectly awful and there is no question about that. But most of Paris-Roubaix are no worse than very bad road. As I noted, one end of the entrance to Paris for the Tour de France is over pave' and is smoother than the asphalt. I was there and walked on it. So pave' like any other road surface can vary a great deal. And they make a point of having good roads connecting the pave'. And with gravel tires things have changed a lot. You said the other day that you're riding 30 mm tires. So I assume that most of your riding isn't on perfectly smooth roads like the picture you showed us.

Here's what Redwood Road looked like after the storm. This is near the bottom by the golf course and was one of the better sections of the road. I reported the impending collapse for months with no response of the road department. This road didn't simply fall off because of the rain, but had huge 3" deep potholes and dangerous cracks opening up continually making this descent which used to be a 40 mph descent into something that you couldn't go down at 20 mph. And even then you were risking your wheels. https://headtopics.com/us/redwood-road-in-castro-valley-collapses-in-storm-33730752

Another section of Chabot Road between Fairmont Drive (hill) and Estudillo Road (about 5 miles) had just been approved by our city council to allow 60-100 heavy truck loads of dirt for the next 40 to 80 YEARS. This road was breaking up from light car traffic and in one case where there was a dirt road running off to the side where Truck traffic had once been used to build the Chabot Dam to make our reserve water supply, the road was so bad that it collapsed under the weight of my bicycle and luckily that dirt road was there to allow me safe stopping room. After the council approved that insane road use, the rain caused the road to entirely fall off. The local paper won't even show the damage because it would embarrass the council. Now consider that - the NEWSPAPER won't report the news.