It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.

I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.

Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.

Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
Deacon Mark

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 1:37:20 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
>
> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked.. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
>
> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
>
> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
>
> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
> Deacon Mark
Mark, when did those symptoms start?

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
<deaconmjc08@gmail.com> wrote:

>It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
>That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
>
>So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
>
>I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
>
>Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
>
>Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
>Deacon Mark

Be aware, the pain will likely show up.. I'm 78, and the back pain
started big time four or five years ago.

On 3/29/2023 3:37 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
>
> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
>
> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
>
> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
>
> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
> Deacon Mark
>

I agree that RBT has survived better than any other
newsgroup I have frequented. Perfect? Almost, but at least
it's active and more civil than most.

And that's fast delivery downstate. Chicago "2 Day" service
is four days now, literally slower than by bicycle (175 mi).

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/29/23 2:02 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> <deaconmjc08@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
>> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
>>
>> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
>>
>> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
>>
>> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
>>
>> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
>> Deacon Mark
>
> Be aware, the pain will likely show up.. I'm 78, and the back pain
> started big time four or five years ago.
>

Mine is helped a lot by using a rowing machine in the gym extensively
three times a week. Cycling is fairly bad for the lower back so I needed
something like this. Lifting a kayak gives me instant back pain so the
gym was the next best thing.

Hint for seniors: Many Medicare Advantage plans include a complimentary
Silver&Fit membership which gets you assigned to a gym. In my case for
free. It's often not advertized though so you need to inquire. One way
to find out is to the "Check Eligibility" tab here which is how I got in:

https://www.silverandfit.com/

I guess the health care providers figure that whatever they reimburse
the gym is less than they save by the health benefits gained.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 3/29/23 2:02 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>> <deaconmjc08@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost
>>> a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
>>> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this
>>> pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz
>>> guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We
>>> all are migrated to other forums.
>>>
>>> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for
>>> the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur
>>> worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty
>>> much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
>>>
>>> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I
>>> dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It
>>> raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got
>>> the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the
>>> bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but
>>> otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2
>>> days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe
>>> tomorrow if weather holds.
>>>
>>> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are
>>> failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out
>>> stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
>>>
>>> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement
>>> working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I
>>> don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap
>>> all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete,
>>> I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
>>> Deacon Mark
>>
>> Be aware, the pain will likely show up.. I'm 78, and the back pain
>> started big time four or five years ago.
>>
>
> Mine is helped a lot by using a rowing machine in the gym extensively
> three times a week. Cycling is fairly bad for the lower back so I needed
> something like this. Lifting a kayak gives me instant back pain so the
> gym was the next best thing.

I find MTB/Gravel riding helps as it builds core strength as you use your
upper body much more.

Hence I can lift bikes even E things one handed without effort.
>
> Hint for seniors: Many Medicare Advantage plans include a complimentary
> Silver&Fit membership which gets you assigned to a gym. In my case for
> free. It's often not advertized though so you need to inquire. One way
> to find out is to the "Check Eligibility" tab here which is how I got in:
>
> https://www.silverandfit.com/
>
> I guess the health care providers figure that whatever they reimburse
> the gym is less than they save by the health benefits gained.
>
Roger Merriman

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:02:16 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
><deaconmjc08@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
>>That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
>>
>>So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
>>
>>I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
>>
>>Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
>>
>>Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
>>Deacon Mark
>
>Be aware, the pain will likely show up.. I'm 78, and the back pain
>started big time four or five years ago. \

Not a certainty but I've discovered that a certain amount of exercise,
i.e. weight lifting, lighter weights, many repetitions, does wonders
for old age aches and pains.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 10:37:13 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> On 3/29/23 2:02 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> > <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
> >> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
> >>
> >> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
> >>
> >> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
> >>
> >> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
> >>
> >> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
> >> Deacon Mark
> >
> > Be aware, the pain will likely show up.. I'm 78, and the back pain
> > started big time four or five years ago.
> >
> Mine is helped a lot by using a rowing machine in the gym extensively
> three times a week. Cycling is fairly bad for the lower back so I needed
> something like this. Lifting a kayak gives me instant back pain so the
> gym was the next best thing.
>
> Hint for seniors: Many Medicare Advantage plans include a complimentary
> Silver&Fit membership which gets you assigned to a gym. In my case for
> free. It's often not advertized though so you need to inquire. One way
> to find out is to the "Check Eligibility" tab here which is how I got in:
>
> https://www.silverandfit.com/
>
> I guess the health care providers figure that whatever they reimburse
> the gym is less than they save by the health benefits gained.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
The name of the game is lumbar support. Most of us spend most of our days sitting in a chair. It is absolutely imperative that the chair be lumbar-friendly. Back in the late eighties I designed a chair for a famous firm and part of my contract was that they would give me free chairs on demand, forever. Into this century, a new management got a case of the cheapie the first time I ever asked for another chair because the first one had broken. I couldn't be bothered to take them to court, but I put them on my shitlist, and persuaded some chums with big portfolios to short them and arranged a stock market accident for them. With the crooked management gone, the new management tried to give me another chair, but I'd already discovered an even better chair.

This is the Herman Miller Mirra chair. There were only two chairs on my final shortlist, after I updated the investigation of chairs available nearly twenty years earlier, as preparation for designing the ultimate chair, and they were both from Herman Miller, the Aeron which is a bit overblown to justify its elevated price, and the Mirra, which costs marginally less and is slightly smaller but perfectly adequate for even big people, and quite as adjustable as the trailblazing Aeron. I chose the Mirra and have been very happy with it.

So the days when I was in constant back pain and keeping my physio in a big new BMW every year are long, long behind me. These days, I have about ten minutes of back pain when I get out of bed, and a bit of standing up and bending over the washbasin for washing my face, and stretching to brush my hair, soon straightens me out.

One important thing I learned: you can forget walking or cycling or jogging to fix your back. They will all make it worse. Get a good chair with adjustable lumbar support and preferably adjustable forearm support as well, and you'll feel better long after you have forgotten the outrageous price of a quality ergonomic chair. Of course, you have to arrange everything else around you not to undo the good work of the chair, for instance the top of your PC screen should be at about eye-level and your forearms with your hands on the keyboard should be parallel to the floor, and your feet when you're installed in your chair should be flat on the floor.

Andre Jute
Superior ergonomics is not a luxury.
>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 05:29:27 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Not a certainty but I've discovered that a certain amount of exercise,
> i.e. weight lifting, lighter weights, many repetitions, does wonders
> for old age aches and pains.

My doctor gave me stretching and range-of-motion exercises that take
about fifteen minutes every night. Also practice in getting up off
the floor. It makes a *lot* of difference. When it's warm enough, I
stop at every gazebo and do an abbreviated set. (There are only two
gazebos in my range.)

Breaking up sitting and standing by walking around at intervals also
helps.

It I'm going to work at the ironing board for a long time, I lower it
enough that I can pin etc. while sitting in a typing chair. Sometimes
rolling to a new position is actually easier than working standing up
and walking around the work table.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 00:48:39 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 05:29:27 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Not a certainty but I've discovered that a certain amount of exercise,
>> i.e. weight lifting, lighter weights, many repetitions, does wonders
>> for old age aches and pains.
>
>My doctor gave me stretching and range-of-motion exercises that take
>about fifteen minutes every night. Also practice in getting up off
>the floor. It makes a *lot* of difference. When it's warm enough, I
>stop at every gazebo and do an abbreviated set. (There are only two
>gazebos in my range.)
>
>Breaking up sitting and standing by walking around at intervals also
>helps.
>
>It I'm going to work at the ironing board for a long time, I lower it
>enough that I can pin etc. while sitting in a typing chair. Sometimes
>rolling to a new position is actually easier than working standing up
>and walking around the work table.

There is no question that as one ages one gets "stiffer" :-) As well I
know. In addition I broke my pelvis some years ago an as a result have
one hip that doesn't work quite as well as the other. So Yes I also
have a series of stretching exercises that I do, more or less
faithfully, once a day.

Re ironing boards. I wonder if it is some sort of national thing. My
mother always ironed while standing but my wife (Thai) has always used
a stool, in fact in our early days she used to iron on the floor, with
a mat of course. Which sounds sort of uncouth I guess, until you
realize that the floor in a Thai house is clean enough to eat off :-)
Take your shoes off and wash your feet before entering, please :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 4:37:20 PM UTC-4, Mark Cleary wrote:
> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
>
> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked.. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
>
> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
>
> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
>
> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.

While it's important not to neglect some form of load-bearing exercise for good bone health, Regular yoga classes works wonders for overall strength and flexibility. Cycling is notoriously bad for any one of those three issues. As Roger mentions, good core strength is the key. Start with a Yin class until you get a base of the movements and poses, then move into Vinyasa style (start out with slow-flow, a power vinyasa class will seriously kick your ass if you're not already fit). For extra motivation find a class with a cute instructor.

> Deacon Mark

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:55:26 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 10:37:13 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> > On 3/29/23 2:02 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> > > <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
> > >> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
> > >>
> > >> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
> > >>
> > >> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
> > >>
> > >> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
> > >>
> > >> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
> > >> Deacon Mark
> > >
> > > Be aware, the pain will likely show up.. I'm 78, and the back pain
> > > started big time four or five years ago.
> > >
> > Mine is helped a lot by using a rowing machine in the gym extensively
> > three times a week. Cycling is fairly bad for the lower back so I needed
> > something like this. Lifting a kayak gives me instant back pain so the
> > gym was the next best thing.
> >
> > Hint for seniors: Many Medicare Advantage plans include a complimentary
> > Silver&Fit membership which gets you assigned to a gym. In my case for
> > free. It's often not advertized though so you need to inquire. One way
> > to find out is to the "Check Eligibility" tab here which is how I got in:
> >
> > https://www.silverandfit.com/
> >
> > I guess the health care providers figure that whatever they reimburse
> > the gym is less than they save by the health benefits gained.
> >
> > --
> > Regards, Joerg
> >
> > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> >
> The name of the game is lumbar support. Most of us spend most of our days sitting in a chair. It is absolutely imperative that the chair be lumbar-friendly. Back in the late eighties I designed a chair for a famous firm and part of my contract was that they would give me free chairs on demand, forever. Into this century, a new management got a case of the cheapie the first time I ever asked for another chair because the first one had broken. I couldn't be bothered to take them to court, but I put them on my shitlist, and persuaded some chums with big portfolios to short them and arranged a stock market accident for them. With the crooked management gone, the new management tried to give me another chair, but I'd already discovered an even better chair.
>
> This is the Herman Miller Mirra chair. There were only two chairs on my final shortlist, after I updated the investigation of chairs available nearly twenty years earlier, as preparation for designing the ultimate chair, and they were both from Herman Miller, the Aeron which is a bit overblown to justify its elevated price, and the Mirra, which costs marginally less and is slightly smaller but perfectly adequate for even big people, and quite as adjustable as the trailblazing Aeron. I chose the Mirra and have been very happy with it.
>
> So the days when I was in constant back pain and keeping my physio in a big new BMW every year are long, long behind me. These days, I have about ten minutes of back pain when I get out of bed, and a bit of standing up and bending over the washbasin for washing my face, and stretching to brush my hair, soon straightens me out.
>
> One important thing I learned: you can forget walking or cycling or jogging to fix your back. They will all make it worse. Get a good chair with adjustable lumbar support and preferably adjustable forearm support as well, and you'll feel better long after you have forgotten the outrageous price of a quality ergonomic chair. Of course, you have to arrange everything else around you not to undo the good work of the chair, for instance the top of your PC screen should be at about eye-level and your forearms with your hands on the keyboard should be parallel to the floor, and your feet when you're installed in your chair should be flat on the floor.

Andre, if cycling doesn't improve your back problems you probably have too upright a position.

On 3/29/2023 4:37 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>
> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.

My workshop has two stools of different heights. When working on a bike
or almost any other device, I'm usually moving between standing and
sitting on one or the other. I think that changing posture is good for
you. (Hey, it works in a Catholic mass!)

My back gets tired if I'm on my feet for long periods of time,
especially if I'm not walking briskly. That's improved since I started
abdominal exercises with an "ab roller" - an 8" diameter wheel centered
on a 12" axle with handles on the ends. It's used by kneeling and
rolling it out in front of you, forward and back, sort of an alternative
to situps. Situps don't work well for me, I think because they tend to
compress the lower spine. This stretches the lower spine while working
abdominal muscles.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/29/2023 4:37 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>
>> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement
>> working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't
>> have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the
>> time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel
>> like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
>
> My workshop has two stools of different heights. When working on a bike
> or almost any other device, I'm usually moving between standing and
> sitting on one or the other. I think that changing posture is good for
> you. (Hey, it works in a Catholic mass!)
>
> My back gets tired if I'm on my feet for long periods of time,
> especially if I'm not walking briskly. That's improved since I started
> abdominal exercises with an "ab roller" - an 8" diameter wheel centered
> on a 12" axle with handles on the ends. It's used by kneeling and
> rolling it out in front of you, forward and back, sort of an alternative
> to situps. Situps don't work well for me, I think because they tend to
> compress the lower spine. This stretches the lower spine while working
> abdominal muscles.
>
My hips and back can start to hurt mainly my hips if I’m on my feet for
long and moving about or simply standing.

But that’s due to my injuries.

Roger Merriman

On 3/30/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/29/2023 4:37 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>
>> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in
>> basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back
>> just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving
>> slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on
>> bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like
>> a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
>
> My workshop has two stools of different heights. When
> working on a bike or almost any other device, I'm usually
> moving between standing and sitting on one or the other. I
> think that changing posture is good for you. (Hey, it works
> in a Catholic mass!)
>
> My back gets tired if I'm on my feet for long periods of
> time, especially if I'm not walking briskly. That's improved
> since I started abdominal exercises with an "ab roller" - an
> 8" diameter wheel centered on a 12" axle with handles on the
> ends. It's used by kneeling and rolling it out in front of
> you, forward and back, sort of an alternative to situps.
> Situps don't work well for me, I think because they tend to
> compress the lower spine. This stretches the lower spine
> while working abdominal muscles.
>

My sympathies to all contributors and I'm happy that you
have found accommodation.

While I have always stood to build wheels, my #1
wheelbuilder always sits. Our wheels are of equal quality in
equal time.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 12:29:15 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/30/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/29/2023 4:37 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >>
> >> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in
> >> basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back
> >> just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving
> >> slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on
> >> bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like
> >> a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
> >
> > My workshop has two stools of different heights. When
> > working on a bike or almost any other device, I'm usually
> > moving between standing and sitting on one or the other. I
> > think that changing posture is good for you. (Hey, it works
> > in a Catholic mass!)
> >
> > My back gets tired if I'm on my feet for long periods of
> > time, especially if I'm not walking briskly. That's improved
> > since I started abdominal exercises with an "ab roller" - an
> > 8" diameter wheel centered on a 12" axle with handles on the
> > ends. It's used by kneeling and rolling it out in front of
> > you, forward and back, sort of an alternative to situps.
> > Situps don't work well for me, I think because they tend to
> > compress the lower spine. This stretches the lower spine
> > while working abdominal muscles.
> >
> My sympathies to all contributors and I'm happy that you
> have found accommodation.
>
> While I have always stood to build wheels, my #1
> wheelbuilder always sits. Our wheels are of equal quality in
> equal time.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Today was only on the trainer managed that. Then I took 2 Naproxen Sodium (generic Advil) and stood for 5 minutes in the ice cold shower running on my back. That really helped. Then just this afternoon after playing jazz guitar for about 70 minutes I did my serious of exercises I normally do. I do 10 hip rolls on the floor. Then straight leg raises with one leg and on my back on the floor. Then some stretching and hand weights. I was able to do my little core crunches that are not a full sit up. A full sit up I think is actually not good for the back. Then some more various leg stretches, and I am much better. Hopefully on the mend. I hate taking any of the nsaids. They are ok but can raise the blood pressure.

I was good and did no standing or working on bikes in the basement. I think I was getting stiff and then bending over and fatigue and my back decided enough was enough. I have to admit like Andrew I build and true wheels standing. I have the truing stand on my high bench that puts the hub about chest height. Sitting to build a wheel depending on the position could be ok or not ok. The one thing I avoid doing and have for years is to bend at the waist and try and touch toes, with legs lock straight. That is curtains and very hard on the back.
Deacon Mark.

On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 3:07:01 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:55:26 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 10:37:13 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> > > On 3/29/23 2:02 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> > > > <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
> > > >> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
> > > >>
> > > >> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
> > > >>
> > > >> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great.. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
> > > >>
> > > >> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
> > > >>
> > > >> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
> > > >> Deacon Mark
> > > >
> > > > Be aware, the pain will likely show up.. I'm 78, and the back pain
> > > > started big time four or five years ago.
> > > >
> > > Mine is helped a lot by using a rowing machine in the gym extensively
> > > three times a week. Cycling is fairly bad for the lower back so I needed
> > > something like this. Lifting a kayak gives me instant back pain so the
> > > gym was the next best thing.
> > >
> > > Hint for seniors: Many Medicare Advantage plans include a complimentary
> > > Silver&Fit membership which gets you assigned to a gym. In my case for
> > > free. It's often not advertized though so you need to inquire. One way
> > > to find out is to the "Check Eligibility" tab here which is how I got in:
> > >
> > > https://www.silverandfit.com/
> > >
> > > I guess the health care providers figure that whatever they reimburse
> > > the gym is less than they save by the health benefits gained.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards, Joerg
> > >
> > > http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> > >
> > The name of the game is lumbar support. Most of us spend most of our days sitting in a chair. It is absolutely imperative that the chair be lumbar-friendly. Back in the late eighties I designed a chair for a famous firm and part of my contract was that they would give me free chairs on demand, forever. Into this century, a new management got a case of the cheapie the first time I ever asked for another chair because the first one had broken. I couldn't be bothered to take them to court, but I put them on my shitlist, and persuaded some chums with big portfolios to short them and arranged a stock market accident for them. With the crooked management gone, the new management tried to give me another chair, but I'd already discovered an even better chair.
> >
> > This is the Herman Miller Mirra chair. There were only two chairs on my final shortlist, after I updated the investigation of chairs available nearly twenty years earlier, as preparation for designing the ultimate chair, and they were both from Herman Miller, the Aeron which is a bit overblown to justify its elevated price, and the Mirra, which costs marginally less and is slightly smaller but perfectly adequate for even big people, and quite as adjustable as the trailblazing Aeron. I chose the Mirra and have been very happy with it.
> >
> > So the days when I was in constant back pain and keeping my physio in a big new BMW every year are long, long behind me. These days, I have about ten minutes of back pain when I get out of bed, and a bit of standing up and bending over the washbasin for washing my face, and stretching to brush my hair, soon straightens me out.
> >
> > One important thing I learned: you can forget walking or cycling or jogging to fix your back. They will all make it worse. Get a good chair with adjustable lumbar support and preferably adjustable forearm support as well, and you'll feel better long after you have forgotten the outrageous price of a quality ergonomic chair. Of course, you have to arrange everything else around you not to undo the good work of the chair, for instance the top of your PC screen should be at about eye-level and your forearms with your hands on the keyboard should be parallel to the floor, and your feet when you're installed in your chair should be flat on the floor.
> Andre, if cycling doesn't improve your back problems you probably have too upright a position.
>
I don't actually sit so upright that my backbone forms a shock absorber for the seat tube. When I say that "I sit upright", I mean some position between 5 degrees (which I would define as "very upright") and a semisporting 15 angle.
>
But, in general, I don't see how cycling can improve an already wrecked back. It's better than jogging, which is a whole series of shocks to the skeleton, but inferior to swimming. According to a book my doctor's daughter had prescribed at school, housework is one of the top exercises...

I have some fused sections in my spine, so I don't expect too much from any kind of exercise. Being painfree all these years because I'm sitting right is already a boon. I've also noticed that my treadmill, a huge industrial type York, has a more resilient feel underfoot than the roads outside the house.

Andre Jute
Cyclist, sometime hillwalker.
>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:00:01 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
<deaconmjc08@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 12:29:15?PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/30/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 3/29/2023 4:37 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in
>> >> basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back
>> >> just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving
>> >> slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on
>> >> bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like
>> >> a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
>> >
>> > My workshop has two stools of different heights. When
>> > working on a bike or almost any other device, I'm usually
>> > moving between standing and sitting on one or the other. I
>> > think that changing posture is good for you. (Hey, it works
>> > in a Catholic mass!)
>> >
>> > My back gets tired if I'm on my feet for long periods of
>> > time, especially if I'm not walking briskly. That's improved
>> > since I started abdominal exercises with an "ab roller" - an
>> > 8" diameter wheel centered on a 12" axle with handles on the
>> > ends. It's used by kneeling and rolling it out in front of
>> > you, forward and back, sort of an alternative to situps.
>> > Situps don't work well for me, I think because they tend to
>> > compress the lower spine. This stretches the lower spine
>> > while working abdominal muscles.
>> >
>> My sympathies to all contributors and I'm happy that you
>> have found accommodation.
>>
>> While I have always stood to build wheels, my #1
>> wheelbuilder always sits. Our wheels are of equal quality in
>> equal time.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>Today was only on the trainer managed that. Then I took 2 Naproxen Sodium (generic Advil) and stood for 5 minutes in the ice cold shower running on my back. That really helped. Then just this afternoon after playing jazz guitar for about 70 minutes I did my serious of exercises I normally do. I do 10 hip rolls on the floor. Then straight leg raises with one leg and on my back on the floor. Then some stretching and hand weights. I was able to do my little core crunches that are not a full sit up. A full sit up I think is actually not good for the back. Then some more various leg stretches, and I am much better. Hopefully on the mend. I hate taking any of the nsaids. They are ok but can raise the blood pressure.
>
>I was good and did no standing or working on bikes in the basement. I think I was getting stiff and then bending over and fatigue and my back decided enough was enough. I have to admit like Andrew I build and true wheels standing. I have the truing stand on my high bench that puts the hub about chest height. Sitting to build a wheel depending on the position could be ok or not ok. The one thing I avoid doing and have for years is to bend at the waist and try and touch toes, with legs lock straight. That is curtains and very hard on the back.
>Deacon Mark.

Streching is what works for me, but a ride on the Catrike, like I did
today, takes the pain away for the rest of the day and following
night. Tomorrow, it will be back and I'll do my daily streching
proceedures.

The one machine you should give a miss is the Nordic Walker. This is a machine on which you stand on articulated pedals and hold onto articulated handgrips, the deal movement replication the action of walking on Norwegian snowshoes and the handgrips mimicking due alpine sticks. Everything is spring loaded or counterweighted. When the physiotherapists putting me back on my feet after heart surgery heard I had one, they went ballistic. Apparently the Nordic Walker is known for bringing the user's respiration rate up too quickly. I'd had innumerable emphatic lectures, even before anyone discovered I had a Nordic Walker in my gym, on warming up and warming down on bike rides or even just going for a stroll. The Nordic Walker contravenes the number one rule of physiotherapy, at least how it is practiced in this particular highly respected hospital. -- AJ
>
AJ

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 12:31:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Re ironing boards. I wonder if it is some sort of national thing. My
> mother always ironed while standing but my wife (Thai) has always used
> a stool, in fact in our early days she used to iron on the floor, with
> a mat of course. Which sounds sort of uncouth I guess, until you
> realize that the floor in a Thai house is clean enough to eat off :-)
> Take your shoes off and wash your feet before entering, please :-)

We always had an ironing board, as far as I know. The gasoline iron
in the attic would have been downright hazardous to use on the floor.

Mom cut out patterns on the pink wool carpet in the living room, with
pinkng shears. (They call carpets area rugs now). When we lived in
The Meadows, I had hardwood floors with two-inch boards. These were
really handy for laying out a pattern to see how much fabric to buy.

I still use the floor when my table isn't big enough, but now I cut
the fabric into sections that will fit on the table after pinning the
pattern.

I used the floor twice to measure the four yards I'm cutting into a
cotton jersey -- finally decided to make my next yellow-linen jersey
of yellow cotton rather than petal-pink linen. But I'm drawing
threads and cutting it into rectangles, which can be done on the card
tables.

This is verbose because I'm overdue for a nap. Probably won't read
Usenet for a few days; I'm having an overdose of Real Life (TM).

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On 2023-04-05, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 12:31:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Re ironing boards. I wonder if it is some sort of national thing. My
>> mother always ironed while standing but my wife (Thai) has always used
>> a stool, in fact in our early days she used to iron on the floor, with
>> a mat of course. Which sounds sort of uncouth I guess, until you
>> realize that the floor in a Thai house is clean enough to eat off :-)
>> Take your shoes off and wash your feet before entering, please :-)
>
> We always had an ironing board, as far as I know. The gasoline iron
> in the attic would have been downright hazardous to use on the floor.
>
> Mom cut out patterns on the pink wool carpet in the living room, with
> pinkng shears. (They call carpets area rugs now). When we lived in
> The Meadows, I had hardwood floors with two-inch boards. These were
> really handy for laying out a pattern to see how much fabric to buy.
>
> I still use the floor when my table isn't big enough, but now I cut
> the fabric into sections that will fit on the table after pinning the
> pattern.
>
> I used the floor twice to measure the four yards I'm cutting into a
> cotton jersey -- finally decided to make my next yellow-linen jersey
> of yellow cotton rather than petal-pink linen. But I'm drawing
> threads and cutting it into rectangles, which can be done on the card
> tables.
>
> This is verbose because I'm overdue for a nap. Probably won't read
> Usenet for a few days; I'm having an overdose of Real Life (TM).
>

There is a facebook or something or other group called "Extreme Ironing"
which features people with an ironing board and feigning (or maybe it's
real?) ironing in places such as mountain peaks, under water, deep dark
caves, etcetera, etcetera.

It was *my* job to iron the pillow cases when I was a tad (Joy's age).
Our ironing board folded down from a wall in the kitchen.

I have a Coleman white gas fueled iron as a decoration on my wood stove. It
works well, by the way.

I don't iron on my bicycle as yet....on topic!

pH

On 3/29/23 3:55 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 10:37:13 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
>> On 3/29/23 2:02 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
>>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
>>>> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
>>>>
>>>> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
>>>>
>>>> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
>>>> Deacon Mark
>>>
>>> Be aware, the pain will likely show up.. I'm 78, and the back pain
>>> started big time four or five years ago.
>>>
>> Mine is helped a lot by using a rowing machine in the gym extensively
>> three times a week. Cycling is fairly bad for the lower back so I needed
>> something like this. Lifting a kayak gives me instant back pain so the
>> gym was the next best thing.
>>
>> Hint for seniors: Many Medicare Advantage plans include a complimentary
>> Silver&Fit membership which gets you assigned to a gym. In my case for
>> free. It's often not advertized though so you need to inquire. One way
>> to find out is to the "Check Eligibility" tab here which is how I got in:
>>
>> https://www.silverandfit.com/
>>
>> I guess the health care providers figure that whatever they reimburse
>> the gym is less than they save by the health benefits gained.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>
> The name of the game is lumbar support. Most of us spend most of our days sitting in a chair. It is absolutely imperative that the chair be lumbar-friendly. Back in the late eighties I designed a chair for a famous firm and part of my contract was that they would give me free chairs on demand, forever. Into this century, a new management got a case of the cheapie the first time I ever asked for another chair because the first one had broken. I couldn't be bothered to take them to court, but I put them on my shitlist, and persuaded some chums with big portfolios to short them and arranged a stock market accident for them. With the crooked management gone, the new management tried to give me another chair, but I'd already discovered an even better chair.
>
> This is the Herman Miller Mirra chair. There were only two chairs on my final shortlist, after I updated the investigation of chairs available nearly twenty years earlier, as preparation for designing the ultimate chair, and they were both from Herman Miller, the Aeron which is a bit overblown to justify its elevated price, and the Mirra, which costs marginally less and is slightly smaller but perfectly adequate for even big people, and quite as adjustable as the trailblazing Aeron. I chose the Mirra and have been very happy with it.
>

My wife, being a former nurse, got me a Martin Stoll orthopedic chair.
Afterwards I bought a knee chair from Steifensand which forces my back
to balance all the time. Very good stuff but also very expensive.
Customer service is superb. When the guys let one of the shipping
containers slam and stuff in there got crushed I called Martin Stoll.
They sent me five new rollers for a rather small fee. No shipping charge
and from Germany to the US that alone was definitely more than what they
charged me.

They also last a long time. I re-upholstered part of them after 15
years. Now that they are well over 30 years old I'll have to do it again
soon. But the rest of the chairs including the gas springs still works fine.

> So the days when I was in constant back pain and keeping my physio in a big new BMW every year are long, long behind me. These days, I have about ten minutes of back pain when I get out of bed, and a bit of standing up and bending over the washbasin for washing my face, and stretching to brush my hair, soon straightens me out.
>

My L4. L5 and L6 discs are shot. So essentially one wrong movement
floors me.

> One important thing I learned: you can forget walking or cycling or jogging to fix your back. They will all make it worse.

Not quite. Like Roger said I find that mountain biking improves the back
muscles and that helps. Of course, one has to use a full suspension
bike. Once I forgot to release the rear lock-out after leaving pavement
and a mile into the rough singletrack back pain crept up. Turned it back
on, a few miles later the back pain was gone.

But rowing is best for me. Except I can't lift a kayak anymore on
account of my back so it's the rowing machine at the gym.

Get a good chair with adjustable lumbar support and preferably
adjustable forearm support as well, and you'll feel better long after
you have forgotten the outrageous price of a quality ergonomic chair. Of
course, you have to arrange everything else around you not to undo the
good work of the chair, for instance the top of your PC screen should be
at about eye-level and your forearms with your hands on the keyboard
should be parallel to the floor, and your feet when you're installed in
your chair should be flat on the floor.
>

And be prepared to pay a princely sum but it's worth it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 11:38:45 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> On 3/29/23 3:55 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 10:37:13 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 3/29/23 2:02 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
> >>> <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
> >>>> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
> >>>>
> >>>> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
> >>>>
> >>>> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
> >>>>
> >>>> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
> >>>>
> >>>> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
> >>>> Deacon Mark
> >>>
> >>> Be aware, the pain will likely show up.. I'm 78, and the back pain
> >>> started big time four or five years ago.
> >>>
> >> Mine is helped a lot by using a rowing machine in the gym extensively
> >> three times a week. Cycling is fairly bad for the lower back so I needed
> >> something like this. Lifting a kayak gives me instant back pain so the
> >> gym was the next best thing.
> >>
> >> Hint for seniors: Many Medicare Advantage plans include a complimentary
> >> Silver&Fit membership which gets you assigned to a gym. In my case for
> >> free. It's often not advertized though so you need to inquire. One way
> >> to find out is to the "Check Eligibility" tab here which is how I got in:
> >>
> >> https://www.silverandfit.com/
> >>
> >> I guess the health care providers figure that whatever they reimburse
> >> the gym is less than they save by the health benefits gained.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards, Joerg
> >>
> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> >>
> > The name of the game is lumbar support. Most of us spend most of our days sitting in a chair. It is absolutely imperative that the chair be lumbar-friendly. Back in the late eighties I designed a chair for a famous firm and part of my contract was that they would give me free chairs on demand, forever. Into this century, a new management got a case of the cheapie the first time I ever asked for another chair because the first one had broken. I couldn't be bothered to take them to court, but I put them on my shitlist, and persuaded some chums with big portfolios to short them and arranged a stock market accident for them. With the crooked management gone, the new management tried to give me another chair, but I'd already discovered an even better chair.
> >
> > This is the Herman Miller Mirra chair. There were only two chairs on my final shortlist, after I updated the investigation of chairs available nearly twenty years earlier, as preparation for designing the ultimate chair, and they were both from Herman Miller, the Aeron which is a bit overblown to justify its elevated price, and the Mirra, which costs marginally less and is slightly smaller but perfectly adequate for even big people, and quite as adjustable as the trailblazing Aeron. I chose the Mirra and have been very happy with it.
> >
> My wife, being a former nurse, got me a Martin Stoll orthopedic chair.
> Afterwards I bought a knee chair from Steifensand which forces my back
> to balance all the time. Very good stuff but also very expensive.
> Customer service is superb. When the guys let one of the shipping
> containers slam and stuff in there got crushed I called Martin Stoll.
> They sent me five new rollers for a rather small fee. No shipping charge
> and from Germany to the US that alone was definitely more than what they
> charged me.
>
> They also last a long time. I re-upholstered part of them after 15
> years. Now that they are well over 30 years old I'll have to do it again
> soon. But the rest of the chairs including the gas springs still works fine.
> > So the days when I was in constant back pain and keeping my physio in a big new BMW every year are long, long behind me. These days, I have about ten minutes of back pain when I get out of bed, and a bit of standing up and bending over the washbasin for washing my face, and stretching to brush my hair, soon straightens me out.
> >
> My L4. L5 and L6 discs are shot. So essentially one wrong movement
> floors me.
> > One important thing I learned: you can forget walking or cycling or jogging to fix your back. They will all make it worse.
> Not quite. Like Roger said I find that mountain biking improves the back
> muscles and that helps. Of course, one has to use a full suspension
> bike. Once I forgot to release the rear lock-out after leaving pavement
> and a mile into the rough singletrack back pain crept up. Turned it back
> on, a few miles later the back pain was gone.
>
> But rowing is best for me. Except I can't lift a kayak anymore on
> account of my back so it's the rowing machine at the gym.
> Get a good chair with adjustable lumbar support and preferably
> adjustable forearm support as well, and you'll feel better long after
> you have forgotten the outrageous price of a quality ergonomic chair. Of
> course, you have to arrange everything else around you not to undo the
> good work of the chair, for instance the top of your PC screen should be
> at about eye-level and your forearms with your hands on the keyboard
> should be parallel to the floor, and your feet when you're installed in
> your chair should be flat on the floor.
> >
> And be prepared to pay a princely sum but it's worth it.
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
That's an encouraging history for people with back pain, Joerg.
>
I used a Finnish kneeling chair at one stage and it worked but eventually it just moved the pain elsewhere because as a novelist, my elbows were hanging in free space for 14 hours a day. I still have the kneeling chair but it is used to park Imperial size paper on so that I don't have to bend or reach up for the heavy boxes of watercolour paper.
>
About the princely sums good chairs cost, I got a letter from a chum who says, about the chair I designed, "At least they gave you one free and you didn't mention it lasted a very long time, as did your Mirra chair." I thought I mentioned that the good lumbar support chairs last incredible amounts of time. They do. And my Mirra, already well over a decade old, looks perfectly capable of reaching the 30 years you've had out of your Stoll chair.
>
Andre Jute
Sometime industrial designer.
>

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 4:37:20 p.m. UTC-4, Mark Cleary wrote:
> It seems all the usenet groups have gone to garbage stuff. I was almost a charter member of rec.music.makers.jazzguitar
> That one I was in starting in the later 90's. Then I work into this pretty much off and on. Lately though this has been a rebound. The jazz guitar group went to the worst of the worst no one there anymore. We all are migrated to other forums.
>
> So to the post. Andrew on Monday mails be out a campy 621 ferrule for the Habanero Build although I had a work around, so the rear derailleur worked.. I really want the proper one because they are cheap and pretty much the best. Andrew also had a 110mm X 35 stem. I had a 80mm 30ish.
>
> I got it today and to the final tweaking of the build. I must say I dialed in pretty close to my 2017 Habanero Team Neuvo 58mm frame. It raised the drop bars to almost the same height and this is 56. I got the saddles in same place from the ground. With the higher rise the bike does not have the aboslute cool smooth look in terms of lines but otherwise looks great. Rides well I did a 45 and 55 mile ride last 2 days with the old stem. Will get it out with the new stem maybe tomorrow if weather holds.
>
> Andrew, you get big thanks for working in America, like it seems we are failing to do that much anymore. Also, this group is still whipping out stuff of good, bad, and even crazy but hey it still exists.
>
> Finally, is it just me or at almost 62 I stand around in basement working on my bike and after a few hours the back just gives up. I don't have any pain but starting moving slow and careful. I drop crap all the time working on bikes and picking up standing on the concrete, I feel like a 90 year old man getting out of a chair. Carry on.
> Deacon Mark

Unfortunately this newsgroup is also well on its way to mostly garbage stuff postings. It's overly populated by Trolls, those who can't resist replying to said Trolls, and thread hijackers. Andrew is one of the few people here who still stays on topic and gives helpful advice to matters pertaining to BICYCLES.

Cheers