https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:26:55 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Do you see any point at all in that patent?

On 4/13/2023 4:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:26:55 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> Do you see any point at all in that patent?
>

No

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/13/2023 1:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/

Chasing ever-diminishing returns.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:26:47 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/

"However, the rocker chain pitch increases and decreases throughout
its range of articulation and this means special cogs and gears are
required to enable the adoption of this rocker chain design."

Special cogs and gears? No thanks.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 8:55:49 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/13/2023 1:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/
>
> Chasing ever-diminishing returns.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
Maybe some applications in track racing where extrememly subtle differences could make those .001" second differences (I'm thinking the Hour Record), but other than that......

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 9:36:50 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:26:47 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/
>
> "However, the rocker chain pitch increases and decreases throughout
> its range of articulation and this means special cogs and gears are
> required to enable the adoption of this rocker chain design."
>
> Special cogs and gears? No thanks.
>

IMO different cogs and gears are no different than transitions with the number of cogs - you are essentially swapping the entire drive train with the possible exception of the chain rings/front derailleur.

I was more dubious about the statement " Any debris entering the space between the rocker pins and the center pin could limit articulation of the links and prevent the chain running at all consistently." They go on the say this would basically prevent off-road applications, but apparently they aren't aware that road riding likely kicks up as many small particles that could jam the rockers - yeah, no thanks.

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 02:03:59 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 8:55:49?PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/13/2023 1:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/
>>
>> Chasing ever-diminishing returns.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>Maybe some applications in track racing where extrememly subtle differences could make those .001" second differences (I'm thinking the Hour Record), but other than that......

(;-) On the other hand it is NEW and undoubtedly will be EXPENSIVE so
what's not to like?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 02:10:33 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 9:36:50?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:26:47 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/
>>
>> "However, the rocker chain pitch increases and decreases throughout
>> its range of articulation and this means special cogs and gears are
>> required to enable the adoption of this rocker chain design."
>>
>> Special cogs and gears? No thanks.

>IMO different cogs and gears are no different than transitions with the number of cogs - you are essentially swapping the entire drive train with the possible exception of the chain rings/front derailleur.

Methinks the tooth profile on the chain rings gears will also need to
be specially tweaked. The bulk of the damage done to conventional
chains occurs when the chain bends around the gears. The smaller the
turn radius, the more wear. The small radius rear derailleur gears
are not a problem because the only tension on the rear derailleur
gears is from the weight of the chain. The chain ring is less of a
problem because the bend radius is much less than the freewheel.
However, if one is interested in reducing chain friction by a few
decimal points, all the tooth profiles will need to accommodate the
new chain.

>I was more dubious about the statement " Any debris entering the space between the rocker pins and the center pin could limit articulation of the links and prevent the chain running at all consistently." They go on the say this would basically prevent off-road applications, but apparently they aren't aware that road riding likely kicks up as many small particles that could jam the rockers - yeah, no thanks.

In my never humble opinion, the bulk of the fine dirt and dust that
eventually gets into a conventional chain and wears down the pins (but
not the rollers) starts by getting stuck to the gap between the side
plates and the roller. Repetitive bending of the chain around the
gears works the grit into the gap and eventually onto the pin and
bushing.
<https://bike.bikegremlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chain_wornpin.gif>
If the design of the chain or an add-on contrived that brushes away
this grit BEFORE it can enter the gap, methinks the chain would last
longer. Older chains, with worn pins and more grit, would also be
more efficient for a longer time.

Using a brush oiler to remove the grit is common in industrial roller
chain applications:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=roller+chain+lubrication+brush&tbm=isch>
I can probably be made to work on a bicycle if an easy way to mount it
could be contrived. I did some proposed designs for adding brushes on
the front and rear derailleur. The difficult part is preventing the
bristles from getting stuck in the gap between the chain side plates
and roller.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/14/2023 1:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 02:10:33 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 9:36:50?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:26:47 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://bikerumor.com/ceramicspeed-rocker-joint-roller-chain-high-efficiency-drivetrain/
>>>
>>> "However, the rocker chain pitch increases and decreases throughout
>>> its range of articulation and this means special cogs and gears are
>>> required to enable the adoption of this rocker chain design."
>>>
>>> Special cogs and gears? No thanks.
>
>> IMO different cogs and gears are no different than transitions with the number of cogs - you are essentially swapping the entire drive train with the possible exception of the chain rings/front derailleur.
>
> Methinks the tooth profile on the chain rings gears will also need to
> be specially tweaked. The bulk of the damage done to conventional
> chains occurs when the chain bends around the gears. The smaller the
> turn radius, the more wear. The small radius rear derailleur gears
> are not a problem because the only tension on the rear derailleur
> gears is from the weight of the chain. The chain ring is less of a
> problem because the bend radius is much less than the freewheel.
> However, if one is interested in reducing chain friction by a few
> decimal points, all the tooth profiles will need to accommodate the
> new chain.
>
>> I was more dubious about the statement " Any debris entering the space between the rocker pins and the center pin could limit articulation of the links and prevent the chain running at all consistently." They go on the say this would basically prevent off-road applications, but apparently they aren't aware that road riding likely kicks up as many small particles that could jam the rockers - yeah, no thanks.
>
> In my never humble opinion, the bulk of the fine dirt and dust that
> eventually gets into a conventional chain and wears down the pins (but
> not the rollers) starts by getting stuck to the gap between the side
> plates and the roller. Repetitive bending of the chain around the
> gears works the grit into the gap and eventually onto the pin and
> bushing.
> <https://bike.bikegremlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/chain_wornpin.gif>
> If the design of the chain or an add-on contrived that brushes away
> this grit BEFORE it can enter the gap, methinks the chain would last
> longer. Older chains, with worn pins and more grit, would also be
> more efficient for a longer time.
>
> Using a brush oiler to remove the grit is common in industrial roller
> chain applications:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=roller+chain+lubrication+brush&tbm=isch>
> I can probably be made to work on a bicycle if an easy way to mount it
> could be contrived. I did some proposed designs for adding brushes on
> the front and rear derailleur. The difficult part is preventing the
> bristles from getting stuck in the gap between the chain side plates
> and roller.
>

I think you're right about a different tooth profile for the
segmented chain pin design but not about chain and tooth wear.

For chain as we know it, wear is between rivet and roller
and/or sleeve and roller. The roller does not turn against
the tooth (except in extreme failure). Tooth face
degradation as here:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/WORN.JPG

is due to elongated chain pitch, as Jobst Brandt noted,

"At the outset the term "chain stretch" is technically wrong
and misleading. Chains do not stretch, in the dictionary
sense, by elongating the metal through tension. They
lengthen because their hinge pins and sleeves wear which is
caused almost exclusively by road grit that enters the chain
when oiled."

and

"A new chain often will not freely engage a worn rear
sprocket under load even though it has the same pitch as the
chain. This occurs because the previous (worn and elongated)
chain formed pockets higher on each tooth (a larger pitch
diameter) than an in pitch chain describes. This wear occurs
because a worn chain rides high on the teeth. A chain with
correct pitch cannot enter the pockets when its previous
roller bears the previous tooth, because the pocket has an
overhang that prevents entry. "

longer more thorough Brandt chain comments here:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/3'32.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/14/2023 2:35 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> If the design of the chain or an add-on contrived that brushes away
> this grit BEFORE it can enter the gap, methinks the chain would last
> longer. Older chains, with worn pins and more grit, would also be
> more efficient for a longer time.
>
> Using a brush oiler to remove the grit is common in industrial roller
> chain applications:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=roller+chain+lubrication+brush&tbm=isch>
> I can probably be made to work on a bicycle if an easy way to mount it
> could be contrived.

I doubt such a thing is practical. Most industrial chains don't have to
deal with anything like the dirty environment of even a road bike chain.
In a clean environment, continuously adding a tiny amount of oil makes
sense. In an environment foggy with road grit, it's just a means of
gluing the fine dust to the chain.

If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
fiber!" so it's marketable.

Convincing the UCI to allow it would be the biggest obstacle, of course;
because no matter how good something is, if racers don't use it, it
won't sell.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
> fiber!" so it's marketable.
>

Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.

Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?

On 4/14/2023 9:00 PM, Tim R wrote:
> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
>> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
>> fiber!" so it's marketable.
>>
>
> Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.
>
> Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?
>

Yes.

Among the absolute best bicycles I have ever ridden the 1913
Pope Columbia shaft drive was remarkable. Light, good
handling and amazingly quiet.

https://www.prices4antiques.com/item_images/medium/66/33/26-03.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 3:14:20 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/14/2023 9:00 PM, Tim R wrote:
> > On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
> >> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
> >> fiber!" so it's marketable.
> >>
> >
> > Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.
> >
> > Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?
> >
> Yes.
>
> Among the absolute best bicycles I have ever ridden the 1913
> Pope Columbia shaft drive was remarkable. Light, good
> handling and amazingly quiet.
>
> https://www.prices4antiques.com/item_images/medium/66/33/26-03.jpg
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
Where are the covers to the gears? Or is the thinking that a sturdy gear will wear only over a very long time?
>
A chain and a sprocket is a very simple solution to drive. On a forum for tourers I;ve be on for umpteen years, I introduced the members the Hebie Chainglider and many took it up. My experience is that the Chainglider quadrupled my mileage per chain. Others who already ready were getting exceptional mileages with proven maintenance routines got double the mileage and up.
>
The Chainglider is made of hard, reinforced rubber-like synthetic material and encloses the chain and the drive surfaces of chainrings and sprockets totally.
>
The implication of Jobst's analysis is that, if you can stop or slow chain wear, chainrings and sprockets will last longer.
_ My purpose with the Chainglider is a zero maintenance bike, and cleanliness for riding it in street clothes, ideal I have long since achieved. I run the chains on my bikes for their entire lifespan on the factory lube, no extra lube, no service, no maintenance, no cleaning, nothing for the entire life of the chain.. There is no oil on my clothes and my sprocket and chainrings appear to last forever; at 11K kilometres they haven't even been turned, so 25K from a set of gears seems entirely possible with a Hebie Chainglider.
>
You can see why I'm not in the least interested in cleaning regimes, new fancy chains, rubber band belt drive as available on Rohloff and NuVinci installations, and other novelties..A Chainglider setup including carriage and taxes costs about 50 Euro, and practically it leaves the Gates Belt Drive for dead not only on a cost comparison but in that it does the job more competently for a lot less money.
>
That said, if the new chain works, it might be worth tiny fractions of a second to the highest let
Andre Jute
The Hebie Chainglider is the only chain cover I can in good con conscience recommend to the owner of a bicycle with a hub gearbox.
>

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 10:48:30 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 3:14:20 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/14/2023 9:00 PM, Tim R wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>
> > >> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
> > >> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
> > >> fiber!" so it's marketable.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.
> > >
> > > Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?
> > >
> > Yes.
> >
> > Among the absolute best bicycles I have ever ridden the 1913
> > Pope Columbia shaft drive was remarkable. Light, good
> > handling and amazingly quiet.
> >
> > https://www.prices4antiques.com/item_images/medium/66/33/26-03.jpg
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> Where are the covers to the gears? Or is the thinking that a sturdy gear will wear only over a very long time?
> >
> A chain and a sprocket is a very simple solution to drive. On a forum for tourers I;ve be on for umpteen years, I introduced the members the Hebie Chainglider and many took it up. My experience is that the Chainglider quadrupled my mileage per chain. Others who already ready were getting exceptional mileages with proven maintenance routines got double the mileage and up.
> >
> The Chainglider is made of hard, reinforced rubber-like synthetic material and encloses the chain and the drive surfaces of chainrings and sprockets totally.
> >
> The implication of Jobst's analysis is that, if you can stop or slow chain wear, chainrings and sprockets will last longer.
> _
> My purpose with the Chainglider is a zero maintenance bike, and cleanliness for riding it in street clothes, ideal I have long since achieved. I run the chains on my bikes for their entire lifespan on the factory lube, no extra lube, no service, no maintenance, no cleaning, nothing for the entire life of the chain.. There is no oil on my clothes and my sprocket and chainrings appear to last forever; at 11K kilometres they haven't even been turned, so 25K from a set of gears seems entirely possible with a Hebie Chainglider.
> >
> You can see why I'm not in the least interested in cleaning regimes, new fancy chains, rubber band belt drive as available on Rohloff and NuVinci installations, and other novelties..A Chainglider setup including carriage and taxes costs about 50 Euro, and practically it leaves the Gates Belt Drive for dead not only on a cost comparison but in that it does the job more competently for a lot less money.
> >
> That said, if the new chain works, it might be worth tiny fractions of a second to the highest let
> Andre Jute
> The Hebie Chainglider is the only chain cover I can in good con conscience recommend to the owner of a bicycle with a hub gearbox.
> >

On long tours I can see the value of a chain protector. But for sport bikes, chains are cheap. Especially when you have the equipment to clean and wax the chain every once in awhile.

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 3:14:20 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/14/2023 9:00 PM, Tim R wrote:
> > On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
> >> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
> >> fiber!" so it's marketable.
> >>
> >
> > Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.
> >
> > Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?
> >
> Yes.
>
> Among the absolute best bicycles I have ever ridden the 1913
> Pope Columbia shaft drive was remarkable. Light, good
> handling and amazingly quiet.
>
> https://www.prices4antiques.com/item_images/medium/66/33/26-03.jpg
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
Though I haven't looked into shaft-driven bikes for well over a couple of decades now, I wondered at that time whether they have been given a fair trial. When I last looked, the only shaft-driven bikes were driven with plastic gears... For instance, now that a significant percentage of bicycles are electrically driven from central motors, and ridden by cyclists who aren't enamoured of the maintenance procedures of the drop-bar brigade, or possibly even unaware of the necessity, the shaft drive could make a comeback on grounds of cleanliness alone. There are plastic gears in most electric motors on bikes, and while I melted some in an earlier installation, metal replacements are available but not fitted only on grounds of noise rather than cost. Since I insist on silence in mechanical appliances, I didn't fit the metal gears; instead I bought a bigger motor and rebuilt the control electronics that came with it to withstand the heavy current loads my installation must withstand, and at the same time switched from a front to a central installation, which has lasted a dozen years already without ever even getting warm.
>
Andre Jute
If shaft drive had the tens of millions invested that derailleur chains and hub gearboxes had, perhaps we'd all be pedalling shaft drives.
>

On 4/14/2023 10:00 PM, Tim R wrote:
> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
>> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
>> fiber!" so it's marketable.
>>
>
> Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could
never afford it.
>
> Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?

Shaft drive bikes existed at least as early as 1900. The great Major
Taylor raced on one, at least for part of his career.
https://www.neh.gov/article/meet-major-taylor-fastest-man-two-wheels

Shaft drives have been marketed in the past 10 years, but I think
they're unlikely to ever get popular. Each bevel gearset imposes
friction losses greater than a clean chain drive. The shaft drive itself
is probably heavier, and gears in general are intolerant of
misalignment. Their precise alignment adds to manufacturing costs, and
requires a more rigid (thus heavier) frame.

Then there's the problem of producing multiple gear ratios. I suppose a
shaft drive to an internal gear hub (14 speed Rohloff hub?) is possible,
but that's another increase in expense plus weight.

I briefly test rode one antique shaft drive bike at a cycling convention
years ago. It was certainly smooth, quiet and elegant looking. But I
wouldn't want one even for just riding around our little village.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 09:56:50 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 19:00:52 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
><timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16?PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
>>> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
>>> fiber!" so it's marketable.
>
>>Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.

My Yamaha Virago was shaft drive.

>>Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?

Yeah, but the mechanical losses are high.

>The latest incantation of a drive shaft bicycle is the CeramicSpeed
>Driven:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=ceramicspeed+driven+drivetrain&tbm=isch>
><https://www.cyclingabout.com/chainless-shaft-drive-bicycles/>
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eimLIkJaNFM>
>
>Here's Kickstarter project from 1920 which failed:
><https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637260734/a-bomb-proof-bike?>
>
>I've only read about them and have never seen or ridden a bicycle with
>one. Skimming what I find online, CeramicSpeed was looking for
>investors in 2021:
><https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 19:00:52 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16?PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
>> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
>> fiber!" so it's marketable.

>Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.
>Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?

The latest incantation of a drive shaft bicycle is the CeramicSpeed
Driven:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=ceramicspeed+driven+drivetrain&tbm=isch>
<https://www.cyclingabout.com/chainless-shaft-drive-bicycles/>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eimLIkJaNFM>

Here's Kickstarter project from 1920 which failed:
<https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637260734/a-bomb-proof-bike?>

I've only read about them and have never seen or ridden a bicycle with
one. Skimming what I find online, CeramicSpeed was looking for
investors in 2021:
<https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 3:39:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 10:48:30 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 3:14:20 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 4/14/2023 9:00 PM, Tim R wrote:
> > > > On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
> > > >> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
> > > >> fiber!" so it's marketable.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.
> > > >
> > > > Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?
> > > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > Among the absolute best bicycles I have ever ridden the 1913
> > > Pope Columbia shaft drive was remarkable. Light, good
> > > handling and amazingly quiet.
> > >
> > > https://www.prices4antiques.com/item_images/medium/66/33/26-03.jpg
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >
> > Where are the covers to the gears? Or is the thinking that a sturdy gear will wear only over a very long time?
> > >
> > A chain and a sprocket is a very simple solution to drive. On a forum for tourers I;ve be on for umpteen years, I introduced the members the Hebie Chainglider and many took it up. My experience is that the Chainglider quadrupled my mileage per chain. Others who already ready were getting exceptional mileages with proven maintenance routines got double the mileage and up.
> > >
> > The Chainglider is made of hard, reinforced rubber-like synthetic material and encloses the chain and the drive surfaces of chainrings and sprockets totally.
> > >
> > The implication of Jobst's analysis is that, if you can stop or slow chain wear, chainrings and sprockets will last longer.
> > _
> > My purpose with the Chainglider is a zero maintenance bike, and cleanliness for riding it in street clothes, ideal I have long since achieved. I run the chains on my bikes for their entire lifespan on the factory lube, no extra lube, no service, no maintenance, no cleaning, nothing for the entire life of the chain.. There is no oil on my clothes and my sprocket and chainrings appear to last forever; at 11K kilometres they haven't even been turned, so 25K from a set of gears seems entirely possible with a Hebie Chainglider.
> > >
> > You can see why I'm not in the least interested in cleaning regimes, new fancy chains, rubber band belt drive as available on Rohloff and NuVinci installations, and other novelties..A Chainglider setup including carriage and taxes costs about 50 Euro, and practically it leaves the Gates Belt Drive for dead not only on a cost comparison but in that it does the job more competently for a lot less money.
> > >
> > That said, if the new chain works, it might be worth tiny fractions of a second to the highest let
> > Andre Jute
> > The Hebie Chainglider is the only chain cover I can in good con conscience recommend to the owner of a bicycle with a hub gearbox.
> > >
> On long tours I can see the value of a chain protector. But for sport bikes, chains are cheap. Especially when you have the equipment to clean and wax the chain every once in awhile.
>
It's the maintenance and oil on your skin or clothes that the Chainglider removes. My chain maintenance consists of fitting a new chain when I change the oil in the Rohloff every 5000km/one year for the nth time which corresponds to 4 or 5K km on the chain. I buy the KMC X8-93 or -99 in batches when there is a sale at about 14 each delivered to my door, all taxes paid, and I give some away to pedal pals, and use the rest.
>
Sheldon considered that you could run an open chain on the factory lube for 700km (Slow Johnny will look it up for us so we can determine if Sheldon was talking about "miles"). But the KMC factory lube, at least on their midrange chains, which are the best cost/value item on the market, is so good that on a fully covered chain it lasted (to about 0.5mm chain wear) 4506km. Significantly, none of the degraded factory lube had come off on the inside of the Chainglider, so it was still protecting the chain and the chain and the toothed items in the transmission. See the photo of the clean inside of the Chainglider at 3500km at::
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.msg77889#msg77889
>
Andre Jute
A Rohloff is a pleasure to cycle on long after the price is forgotten -- AJ channeling Sir Frederick Henry Royce
>

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 2:39:21 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 09:56:50 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
> >On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 19:00:52 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
> ><timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16?PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
> >>> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
> >>> fiber!" so it's marketable.
> >
> >>Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.
> My Yamaha Virago was shaft drive.
> >>Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?
> Yeah, but the mechanical losses are high.
> >The latest incantation of a drive shaft bicycle is the CeramicSpeed
> >Driven:
> ><https://www.google.com/search?q=ceramicspeed+driven+drivetrain&tbm=isch>
> ><https://www.cyclingabout.com/chainless-shaft-drive-bicycles/>
> ><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eimLIkJaNFM>
> >
> >Here's Kickstarter project from 1920 which failed:
> ><https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637260734/a-bomb-proof-bike?>
> >
> >I've only read about them and have never seen or ridden a bicycle with
> >one. Skimming what I find online, CeramicSpeed was looking for
> >investors in 2021:
> ><https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>

I often wonder when this subject comes up for the 99th time why they don't understand that shaft drives are very lossy and with very large and rapid wear.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:19:51 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/15/2023 11:56 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Here's Kickstarter project from 1920 which failed:
>> <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637260734/a-bomb-proof-bike?>

>That kickstarter was very advanced for 1920.

Oops. My fingers had developed artificial intelligence and sometimes
refuse to type what I had intended.

Actually, my problem is that I think faster than I type. The result
is that I drop letters or words while I think ahead about what I'm
going to type next. If you read my various postings, you might notice
that some short words are missing. In this case, I dropped the first
or last 20 which combined with the July 19 became 1920.

From the Kickstarter page:
Funding Unsuccessful
The project's funding goal was not
reached on Sun, July 19 2020 4:28 PM PDT

Thanks for the correction.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/16/2023 2:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:19:51 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/15/2023 11:56 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> Here's Kickstarter project from 1920 which failed:
>>> <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637260734/a-bomb-proof-bike?>
>
>> That kickstarter was very advanced for 1920.
>
> Oops. My fingers had developed artificial intelligence and sometimes
> refuse to type what I had intended.
>
> Actually, my problem is that I think faster than I type. The result
> is that I drop letters or words while I think ahead about what I'm
> going to type next. If you read my various postings, you might notice
> that some short words are missing. In this case, I dropped the first
> or last 20 which combined with the July 19 became 1920.
>
> From the Kickstarter page:
> Funding Unsuccessful
> The project's funding goal was not
> reached on Sun, July 19 2020 4:28 PM PDT
>
> Thanks for the correction.
>

Yep, we all do that.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 6:20:02 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/15/2023 11:56 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 19:00:52 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
> > <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16?PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
> >>> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
> >>> fiber!" so it's marketable.
> >
> >> Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.
> >> Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?
> >
> > The latest incantation of a drive shaft bicycle is the CeramicSpeed
> > Driven:
> > <https://www.google.com/search?q=ceramicspeed+driven+drivetrain&tbm=isch>
> > <https://www.cyclingabout.com/chainless-shaft-drive-bicycles/>
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eimLIkJaNFM>
> >
> > Here's Kickstarter project from 1920 which failed:
> > <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637260734/a-bomb-proof-bike?>
> >
> > I've only read about them and have never seen or ridden a bicycle with
> > one. Skimming what I find online, CeramicSpeed was looking for
> > investors in 2021:
> > <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
> >
> >
> That kickstarter was very advanced for 1920.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Exactly how did they have "internal brakes" when you absolutely need front wheel braking? I do like stainless steel bikes - Tomassini make a "Fire X" steel frame out of it. You can probably talk them into making a stainless fork to go with it. If they still made cable actuated Dura Ace the 12 speed version would be just right with that frame. Campy Super Record is the alternative. 18 lb steel framed bike.

On 4/16/2023 5:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 6:20:02 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/15/2023 11:56 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 19:00:52 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
>>> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:15:16?PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If I were motivated to work on this problem, I'd look at designing a
>>>>> total enclosure for the chain. Make it "aerodynamic!" and "carbon
>>>>> fiber!" so it's marketable.
>>>
>>>> Back when I rode motorcycles I coveted the BMW shaft drive, but could never afford it.
>>>> Has there ever been a shaft drive bicycle?
>>>
>>> The latest incantation of a drive shaft bicycle is the CeramicSpeed
>>> Driven:
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=ceramicspeed+driven+drivetrain&tbm=isch>
>>> <https://www.cyclingabout.com/chainless-shaft-drive-bicycles/>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eimLIkJaNFM>
>>>
>>> Here's Kickstarter project from 1920 which failed:
>>> <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637260734/a-bomb-proof-bike?>
>>>
>>> I've only read about them and have never seen or ridden a bicycle with
>>> one. Skimming what I find online, CeramicSpeed was looking for
>>> investors in 2021:
>>> <https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3>
>>>
>>>
>> That kickstarter was very advanced for 1920.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Exactly how did they have "internal brakes" when you absolutely need front wheel braking? I do like stainless steel bikes - Tomassini make a "Fire X" steel frame out of it. You can probably talk them into making a stainless fork to go with it. If they still made cable actuated Dura Ace the 12 speed version would be just right with that frame. Campy Super Record is the alternative. 18 lb steel framed bike.
>

Your next bike:

https://waterfordbikes.com/w/bikes/artisan-stainless/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971