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tech / sci.electronics.repair / Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

SubjectAuthor
* Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Peter W.
|`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Peter W.
+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
|+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
|`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -ohg...@gmail.com
+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -John McGaw
|+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
||`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
|`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequentlyChris
 |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -John McGaw
 || +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |     +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |     `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |      +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |      `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |       `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Peter W.
 || |        `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -ohg...@gmail.com
 || `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 ||+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 ||+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 || `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Wade Garrett
 ||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 ||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Wade Garrett
 ||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 ||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 ||  `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 ||+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 |||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
 ||| `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 |||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 |||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
 |||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reClifford Heath
 |||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
 |||  `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
 ||+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 |||`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
 || ||+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Phil Allison
 || ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || || +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
 || || `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequentlyChris
 || ||  +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || ||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || ||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking remike
 || ||  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Tim R
 || ||   `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -ohg...@gmail.com
 || |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || ||+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || ||`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Phil Allison
 || |+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Bob F
 || | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |    +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |     +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |     `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |      `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |       `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | | +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | | +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |        | | | |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | |   +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |   |+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |   |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -ohg...@gmail.com
 || |        | | |   +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |    |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -ohg...@gmail.com
 || |        | | |    |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    |   `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -ohg...@gmail.com
 || |        | | |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | |     +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |     |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |     `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |        | | `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Bob F
 || |        | `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |        `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli

Pages:123456
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 17:42 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 13:42:07 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In article <g3unki-jk.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

the battery must be disconnected from the car
first, or the electronics can be destroyed (overvoltage). Happened to me.

the battery doesn't need to be disconnected.

nospam, don't talk of things you don't understand

take your own advice.

i'm *very* familiar with battery chargers for various battery
chemistries. you clearly are not.

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car itself.

that is flat out false. where did you get that bogus information?

applying 20-30v to a 12v lead acid car battery will destroy it.

fast charging is a function of the *current*, not the voltage. see
below, and the initial charge phase is constant current, while the
battery voltage rises to a particular threshold. see below for
specifics.

What you say now is trash:

it isn't.

here's an example of a ctek car battery charger and its various phases.
other brands are similar.

https://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/022514-CTEK-
battery-charger-3-chart-633x360.jpg>

modern car battery chargers initially supply a constant current until
the battery voltage rises to ~14.4v (bulk charge), at which point it
switches to constant voltage to top it off (absorption charge) until
the current draw is minimal, and then switches to trickle charging (aka
float).

when the vehicle is running, the voltage is ~13.8v with a fully charged
battery (higher if it's not).

chargers that do not limit voltage and/or current can destroy all sorts
of things, including the battery. do not use.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: sms
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 17:48 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 10:48:51 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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On 5/9/2022 10:03 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

The exception is the "pulse chargers" that attempt to remove sulfation in lead-acid batteries by using high-voltage, high-frequency pulses, and in that case it would make sense to disconnect the battery from the vehicle prior to attempting this.

There is no conclusive proof that pulse charging has any positive effect, only some limited empirical evidence. There are ways to remove sulfation from non-sealed lead-acid batteries, but not with pulsed charging.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 17:58 UTC
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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 13:58:05 -0400
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In article <t5bk64$f9c$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:


Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

2.75v is the acceptable maximum.

The exception is the "pulse chargers" that attempt to remove sulfation
in lead-acid batteries by using high-voltage, high-frequency pulses, and
in that case it would make sense to disconnect the battery from the
vehicle prior to attempting this.

pulse chargers are nowhere near 20-30v.

for ctek, it's 15.8v for the initial (and mostly useless) desulfation
phase, which will not destroy a vehicle's electronics.

There is no conclusive proof that pulse charging has any positive
effect, only some limited empirical evidence.

true.

There are ways to remove
sulfation from non-sealed lead-acid batteries, but not with pulsed charging.

none that reliably work.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Lewis
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Miskatonic U
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 18:13 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!kreme.dont-email.me!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 18:13:57 -0000 (UTC)
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In message <t5bedb$8fo$1@dont-email.me> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 5/9/2022 4:07 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-05-08 16:20, nospam wrote:
In article <t58hup$esn$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:


You can charge at the very low rate by not letting the charger see the
resistors on the data pins.

by not seeing the resistors (or actual negotiation), the 'very low
rate' is 100ma, as per the usb spec, which is insufficient to charge a
phone battery.

Don't be that absolute. When you do that, you deserve getting the
«nospam is wrong of course™» response.

Some phones may not charge at that rate, others do.

I have one such cable with just two wires, and all of my devices (with
micro-usb connectors) can charge with it, except an old Samsung Galaxy
Mini 2 phone. That cable came with a BT headphone, probably with the
purpose of forcing slow, low rate, charging.

I have a charger with eight outputs. 2 of them are "1 load unit", same
as an old computer. They can charge all my phones, tablets, headsets,
cameras, etc. All of those with USB connection, that is. Except one,
that old Samsung phone.

So I intentionally use those two outputs to charge my phone while I
sleep, or other devices that I'm likely to forget I left charging.

I have been doing that to my previous phone for four years, the battery
is just fine.

nospam is wrong of course™

You're ignorance is showing.

You can charge a phone, albeit very slowly, at 100mA.

Not likely, since the phones need to be on in order to charge, and they
use more than 100mA to be on. You will not charge the phone at 100mA,
you will very slightly slow the phones discharge.

There's no good reason to do this

Of course not, since it will not charge the phone.

For an iPhone there is two ways a) turn off the phone,

No iPhone will not charge at all when off.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain, but nose rings are kinda passé by now."


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Peter W.
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.repair
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 18:43 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
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Newsgroups: sci.electronics.repair
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 11:43:30 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
From: peterwie...@gmail.com (Peter W.)
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No iPhone will not charge at all when off.

Funny thing, my wife's iPhone 13, and the two before that charged just fine when off.

https://www.iphonefaq.org/archives/97310

Jimmy Neutron is proud of itself! All this BS, stupidity and absolute crap over nothing whatsoever of substance!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: ohg...@gmail.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.repair
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Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
From: ohge...@gmail.com (ohg...@gmail.com)
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On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 2:43:33 PM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
No iPhone will not charge at all when off.
Funny thing, my wife's iPhone 13, and the two before that charged just fine when off.



Yep. Not only will all phones charge when off, they often charge faster when off although not dramatically so.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Andy Burnelli
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 21:41 UTC
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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 22:41:21 +0100
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ohg...@gmail.com wrote:

Notice the tire experiments above where there is precious little
information on the Internet why all the cars that are perfectly aligned in
any given twisty road area wear the tires the exact same abnormal way.

Take a look at the Scotty Kilmer video below, and note particularly that
the photos I've been posting (which I've posted for years) are the _same_
as in Scotty Kilmer's videos (just look and you'll recognize my pictures!).
https://youtu.be/i7alzjqmPQo

This is a shot he took of my BMW tires, for example, with wear lined up:
https://i.postimg.cc/HngnZR6h/scottykilmer.jpg He stole my images! :)

Kilmer is a backyard mechanic at best who doesn't know any more about, well, *anything* than any one else.  I wouldn't let this guy change the oil on a car.

I understand and I don't disagree since I, myself, have a love:hate
relationship with Scotty Kilmer, as he seems to spew every bit of nonsense
in the book - but - he's also an extremely experienced mechanic.

BTW, this offshoot tangent happened when Jeff Liebermann asked how many
apps I have installed if I can lose hundreds without blinking an eye, and the test I just ran moments ago shows 663 installed 3rd-party
"packages" and 390 system packages.

I include the documentation of a post I just made below so that the folks
on this newsgroup (which is different from that post) can benefit from the
tremendous effort in making the solution easily cut & paste for everyone.

If anyone here can help find the missing apps, I'd appreciate your
knowledge since I've tried what I know offhand and that has failed so far.

 Please see below for a post I just made for this recent thread today:
 *Using Windows to find hidden files on the Android file system over Wi-Fi*
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/gonmj6NB2f0


WIP: Using Windows to find hidden files on the Android file system

Help requested from those who know more about finding hidden files
on Android from the Windows computer over your local Wi-Fi network.

Recently I updated Android 11 to 12 and all hell broke loose (perhaps
because I change my GSF ID which, we can assume, is saved by apps).
https://i.postimg.cc/0Q4xmPPR/gsfid01.jpg How to change GSF ID
Maybe changing the GSF ID caused apps with GSF to be indexed wrong?
https://i.postimg.cc/YStB48LH/gsfid03.jpg Some apps use GSF APIs

This learning experience is perhaps a good thing as it's an opportunity to
learn where Android apps typically install their code into.
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/GngVnfddiT8

As that location is likely still there (I find it hard to believe that
Google _deleted_ the apps off my Android phone during the update).
https://i.postimg.cc/L4tFb7ND/update14.jpg The apps are gone!

Running adb over Wi-Fi (tcpip port 5555) allows me to list packages:
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages > installed.txt (lists 663 packages)
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -s (of which 390 lines are system)
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -3 (and where 273 lines are third party)
One of which, we would have hoped, would be zoom, but it's not there:
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -f | findStr "zoom" (finds nothing)

Luckily, re-installing even hundreds of apps on Android is trivial since
all the APKs are automatically _not deleted_ when apps are installed.
https://i.postimg.cc/Z5kdD2rg/aurora04.jpg Just don't delete APKs

Which means they can be saved directly onto a Windows mount point.
https://i.postimg.cc/cJK9rbjn/update03.jpg APKs saved into Windows
And then the APKs can simply be slid onto Android to re-install apps.
https://i.postimg.cc/wvsbcNBz/scrcpy05.jpg Drag APK from Windows

But even without that, just clicking on the now-dead grayed-out icons
brings up the correct _new_ APK in the FOSS google play store client.
https://i.postimg.cc/MHNhkgpY/update11.jpg App is not installed

The point being the problem is NOT to re-install hundreds of APKs, as that
part is already trivial.... the problem here is to see if they're _still_
on the Android phone, where I need to know _where_ apps typically go.

Now it's time to look where the missing apps are typically installed into.

Let's take Zoom for example, which seems to have simply disappeared.
https://i.postimg.cc/brtpv9T1/update17.jpg Even Zoom disappeared!

First, let's check if Zoom requires GSF, and when we do, we see it does.
https://i.postimg.cc/XJrSQ0w6/update21.jpg Zoom requires GSF

So now, the question is whether or not Zoom is _already_ installed and perhaps just hidden - but _where_ would zoom be installed onto Android?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=where+does+android+zoom+install+into
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=where+do+android+apps+install+into

 *Android Developers > Docs> Guides > App install location*
https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/data/install-location
 "android:installLocation manifest attribute"

Apparently the flow is that the developer declares the location
 android:installLocation=<unset>   App will be installed on internal storage only
 android:installLocation="preferExternal"
  App will be installed on sdcard if available
 android:installLocation="auto"
  App will be installed But adb seems to show the location of installed packages.
https://stackpointer.io/mobile/android-adb-list-installed-package-names/416/

So let's try those adb commands over wi-fi (TCPIP port 5555) to see stuff.
 C:\> adb kill-server
 C:\> adb tcpip 5555
      restarting in TCP mode port: 5555
 C:\> adb connect 192.168.0.2:5555       connected to 192.168.0.2:5555
 C:\> adb devices
      List of devices attached
      192.168.0.2:5555   device

I was hoping the "disabled" apps option would list zoom, but it didn't:
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -d > disabled_apps.txt (219L)
Nor did the enabled apps option list zoom (which wasn't expected):
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -e > enabled_apps.txt (444L)

I'm not at all sure what the definition of a "disabled" app really is.
But what was interesting was disabled apps were mostly in 1 spot.
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -d -f > location_disabled_apps.txt       package:/data/app/~~{stuff} (208L)
      package:/product/app/. (3L)
      package:/system/app/. (3L)       package:/system/priv-app/. (5L)

While enabled apps were far more scattered about the Android filesystem.
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -e -f > location_enabled_apps.txt (444)
      package:/apex/. (11L)
      package:/data/app/~~{stuff} (87L)
      package:/product/app/. (8L)
      package:/product/overlay/. (28L)
      package:/product/priv-app/. (7L)
      package:/system/app/. (106L)
      package:/system/carrier/. (4L)       package:/system/framework/. (2L)
      package:/system/priv-app/. (171L)
      package:/system/system_ext/priv-app/. (8L)
      package:/vendor/overlay/. (11L)
      package:/vendor/priv-app/. (1L) Of course, if I _install_ Zoom, the commands below will tell me where it
installed into, but I'm trying to find out if it's really still there.

So let's try this adb command over wi-fi (TCPIP port 5555) to see:
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -f -s > sys_package_location.txt (390L)
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -f    > 3rd_package_location.txt (663L)

Summarizing those files, the system apps seem to be installed into
 package:/apex/.
 package:/data/app/.
 package:/product/app/.
 package:/product/overlay/.
 package:/product/priv-app/.
 package:/system/app/.
 package:/system/carrier/.
 package:/system/framework/.
 package:/system/priv-app/.

Click here to read the complete article
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Carlos E.R.
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 10:24 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 12:24:15 +0200
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On 2022-05-09 19:48, sms wrote:
On 5/9/2022 10:03 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.


The exception is the "pulse chargers" that attempt to remove sulfation in lead-acid batteries by using high-voltage, high-frequency pulses, and in that case it would make sense to disconnect the battery from the vehicle prior to attempting this.

There is no conclusive proof that pulse charging has any positive effect, only some limited empirical evidence. There are ways to remove sulfation from non-sealed lead-acid batteries, but not with pulsed charging.

No, this is just an industrial sized fast charger, intended to be used on garages to give enough charge in 10 minutes to a battery so that it can start the car and the client leaves. The client is told he has to replace the battery soon.

It is brutal.

It pushes the 12v battery up to 20 or 30 volts.

The instructions specifically say to disconnect the battery from the car. It is obvious, 20 volts can destroy the car electronics.

This is not done on a good battery.

And yes, I have seen this with my own eyes. You will not easily find it on google.


--
Cheers, Carlos.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
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Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 12:33 UTC
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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
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Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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In article <f3rpki-c6t.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


The exception is the "pulse chargers" that attempt to remove sulfation
in lead-acid batteries by using high-voltage, high-frequency pulses, and
in that case it would make sense to disconnect the battery from the
vehicle prior to attempting this.

There is no conclusive proof that pulse charging has any positive
effect, only some limited empirical evidence. There are ways to remove
sulfation from non-sealed lead-acid batteries, but not with pulsed
charging.

No, this is just an industrial sized fast charger, intended to be used
on garages to give enough charge in 10 minutes to a battery so that it
can start the car and the client leaves. The client is told he has to
replace the battery soon.

what is the make/model of this mythical charger?

It is brutal.

it can be. fast charging is harsher on the battery than slow charging,
but sometimes it's needed in an emergency. it should not be used
routinely.

It pushes the 12v battery up to 20 or 30 volts.

no it doesn't, since 20-30v will destroy a 12v lead acid battery.

you are confusing volts with amps.

fast chargers supply 20-30 *amps* to rapidly charge a car battery. not
volts.

many of them can supply more than that, most of which can also supply
significantly higher currents to start the vehicle (not to recharge).

car repair shops have something similar to these:
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61PD7OB6rvS._AC_SL1200_.jpg
https://www.toolsource.com/images/prod_images/ASO6001A_1200Wx1200H.jpg

The instructions specifically say to disconnect the battery from the
car. It is obvious, 20 volts can destroy the car electronics.

it will also destroy the battery.

This is not done on a good battery.

because good batteries do not need to be recharged.

And yes, I have seen this with my own eyes. You will not easily find it
on google.

because what you describe is wrong.

otherwise, it would easily be found with a search.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Andy Burnelli
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 15:56 UTC
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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 16:56:16 +0100
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UPDATE

Since I've tentatively concluded, much to my chagrin, that Android did, indeed, completely wipe out _hundreds_ of apps (zoom among them), perhaps because they were GSF apps which didn't like that I changed the supposedly permanent unique GSF ID tracking identification number...  https://i.postimg.cc/X7ZspnsG/gsfid01.jpg You can change the GSF ID
https://i.postimg.cc/YStB48LH/gsfid03.jpg GSF Apps use the GSF ID

I decided to _install_ Zoom (which was easily enough done) and then run the adb commands again to see where it put stuff as an added learning
effort.
https://i.postimg.cc/wBndvc4d/update22.jpg Re-installing Zoom is easy
https://i.postimg.cc/tCzy56Jh/update23.jpg Now let's look where it went

This is where Zoom seems to have installed on Android:
https://i.postimg.cc/MKr5hWsv/update24.jpg Zoom in /data/app/~~{stuff}
https://i.postimg.cc/MKr5hWsv/update24.jpg Zoom in /data/app/~~{stuff}
package:/data/app/~~PzJKYsZQ2ZCx6CppblPgRQ==/us.zoom.videomeetings-zGYsIcaI0d-LZ0jXknyD6A==/base.apk=us.zoom.videomeetings

But something is wrong with my Windows dir /s/a/l/on/b since it didn't
find the installed zoom location for some unknown-to-me-as-yet reason. All it found were six new lines (all of which is the saved APK only).
 C:\> findstr /i /r /c:"^.*zoom" android_filesystem.txt
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\.651004.download-complete
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\651004

z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\651004\config.arm64_v8a.apk
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\651004\config.xhdpi.apk

z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\651004\us.zoom.videomeetings.apk

Since this experiment of adding just one app is rarely done, here are the
file
size differences between Android minus Zoom and Android with Zoom just now.
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -f -s > sys_package_location.txt (390L ->
390L)
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -f    > 3rd_package_location.txt (663L ->
664L)
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages > installed.txt (663L -> 664L)
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -d > disabled_apps.txt (219L -> 299L)
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -e > enabled_apps.txt (444L -> 445L)
 C:\> adb shell pm list packages -f -U  > UID.txt (Zoom uid:10588)
 dir /s/a/l/on/b > c:\tmp\android_filesystem.txt (3914L -> 3920L)

In summary, it does appear that migrating from Android 11 to Android 12 actually deleted hundreds of apps, among them zoom, where there's no trace of those apps on Android after the upgrade other than the Nova launcher
saved their location in the well-organized homescreen hierarchy.

Hence re-installing those hundreds of apps is trivial simply because
just tapping on the apps opens up the FOSS google play client to install
the latest version off the Google Play Store repository - or - I can
just as easily slide the APK from Windows over to Android - or - I can
just tap on the saved APK on Android (if I had happened to save it there).

I haven't conclusively proven anything yet as to why the migration of
Android 11 to Android 12 wiped out hundreds of apps, but I suspect it
was simply that the GSF apps misbehaved when they found out that I had
changed the supposedly permanent GSF ID.
--
Usenet is a world-wide team sport where purposefully helpful kind-hearted adults help each other and learn by pooling our individual capabilities.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Andy Burnelli
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 15:57 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!Gj+613xB9sVIQxAtFideEw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 16:57:08 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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View all headers
UPDATE:

I learn more about computers by breaking the rules than by following them.
1. It's (only?) GSF apps that are gone after upgrading Android 11 to 12
2. It may be due to the fact I changed the supposedly permanent GSF ID
3. Luckily Nova knows (almost) exactly how to point to the app installer
4. However it's a mystery _how_ Nova knows (almost) exactly which it is
5. Given the app appears to otherwise be wiped completely off the map
6. However Windows, for some reason, doesn't _find_ the installed app
7. And yet, adb on Windows can easily find that newly installed app The main questions that need to be resolved are
a. Why can't Windows "dir" find the installed app when Windows adb can?
b. How does Nova launcher know exactly which app was wiped off the phone?
c. Why should Android upgrades even care about the GSF ID?

Bear in mind there's almost no effort whatsoever in re-installing the
hundreds of missing apps; all the effort is going into trying to figure out
_why_ and _how_ that happened (as a lot of "magic" seems to have occurred).

Since I've tentatively concluded, much to my chagrin, that Android did, indeed, completely wipe out _hundreds_ of apps (zoom among them), perhaps because they were GSF apps which didn't like that I changed the supposedly permanent unique GSF ID tracking identification number...

Every disaster is an opportunity to learn, where, so far, as I'm going
slowly since it's something I look at when I need an app, all the missing
apps were GSF apps, which, for now, fits the hypothesis that they never
tested Android upgrades for the circumstance that the GSF ID changed.

But why would an Android upgrade even _care_ that a GSF ID had changed?
What's it to them?

I decided to _install_ Zoom (which was easily enough done) and then run the adb commands again to see where it put stuff as an added learning effort.
But something is wrong with my Windows dir /s/a/l/on/b since it didn't
find the installed zoom location for some unknown-to-me-as-yet reason. All it found were six new lines (all of which is the saved APK only).
 C:\> findstr /i /r /c:"^.*zoom" android_filesystem.txt
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\.651004.download-complete
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\651004
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\651004\config.arm64_v8a.apk
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\651004\config.xhdpi.apk
 z:\aurora\store\downloads\us.zoom.videomeetings\651004\us.zoom.videomeetings.apk

This is another _new_ learning experience. Why didn't the Windows "dir" command find the zoom installation hierarchy?
Where does Zoom put its installed files if not in the system directory?

Hence re-installing those hundreds of apps is trivial simply because
just tapping on the apps opens up the FOSS google play client to install
the latest version off the Google Play Store repository...

Yet another new learning experience is the fact that the ease of installing
the app is based on "something" (I don't know yet) which is hidden data.

Something about the grayed out icons tells Android exactly which app to
find in the FOSS google play store client... however... in one or two cases
so far, it did _not_ find the right "something" in that client.

So there's yet more "magic" going on that I don't understand about this yet
but it has been a wonderful new learning experience since you can't learn
this stuff without some lab work in destructive testing procedures.
--
I learn more about Android by breaking the rules than by following them.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Carlos E.R.
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 17:30 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 19:30:50 +0200
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On 2022-05-10 14:33, nospam wrote:
In article <f3rpki-c6t.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


I saw it personally.



--
Cheers, Carlos.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 18:14 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 14:14:57 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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View all headers
In article <b3kqki-flc.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


I saw it personally.

that's not a citation, nor did you see that.

what you saw was a 20-30 *amp* charger. not volts.

20-30 volts (3.3-5v/cell) would destroy a 12v lead acid battery, also
risking explosion, potentially destroying quite a bit more.

feel free to cite a credible reference to the contrary *and* go back to
the garage and take a photo of the charger that you claim was used so
that its specs can be verified.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Carlos E.R.
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 19:11 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!lilly.ping.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 21:11:35 +0200
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View all headers
On 2022-05-10 20:14, nospam wrote:
In article <b3kqki-flc.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


I saw it personally.

that's not a citation, nor did you see that.

Cite me. I saw it. I am the source.


what you saw was a 20-30 *amp* charger. not volts.

Nope. Volts. Several electronic devices in my car were destroyed.


--
Cheers, Carlos.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 19:18 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 15:18:19 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In article <70qqki-02f.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


I saw it personally.

that's not a citation, nor did you see that.

Cite me. I saw it. I am the source.

that's not how citations work. you can't cite yourself.

what you describe is not how lead acid batteries are charged.

take a photo of the charger and/or find one or more links describing it.

what you saw was a 20-30 *amp* charger. not volts.

Nope. Volts. Several electronic devices in my car were destroyed.

again, take a photo of the charger and/or find some links describing it.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Carlos E.R.
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 20:58 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 22:58:59 +0200
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On 2022-05-10 21:18, nospam wrote:
In article <70qqki-02f.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


I saw it personally.

that's not a citation, nor did you see that.

Cite me. I saw it. I am the source.

that's not how citations work. you can't cite yourself.

I am a witness.


what you describe is not how lead acid batteries are charged.

take a photo of the charger and/or find one or more links describing it.

Nope. It was over a decade ago.

Take my word for it, then you waste your time and find the information. I did that research at the time.
What you get is my recollection.

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect and dangerous thing to do; in fact, it destroyed part of the electronics of my car. But I did not know what they were doing at the time or I would have stopped them. I could have sued them.

--
Cheers, Carlos.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: sms
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 21:24 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 14:24:51 -0700
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On 5/10/2022 1:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect and dangerous thing to do; in fact, it destroyed part of the electronics of my car. But I did not know what they were doing at the time or I would have stopped them. I could have sued them.

I don't know where that repair shop would have found such a battery charger unless they were using a 24V charger on a 12V battery.

Trying to charge a nominal 12V battery at 30 volts would have unexpected consequences. The battery is a huge load with very low internal resistance so in order for the vehicle electronics to be damaged the charger must also have been supplying enormous amounts of current.

You can hook up a small, unregulated,  20V solar panel to keep a non-AGM car battery charged because the current is so low (a fraction of an amp) that as soon as you connect the battery the load drops the output to around 12 volts.



Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 22:12 UTC
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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 18:12:37 -0400
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In article <j90rki-r9k.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:


Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car
battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


I saw it personally.

that's not a citation, nor did you see that.

Cite me. I saw it. I am the source.

that's not how citations work. you can't cite yourself.

I am a witness.

apparently the only one, since such a device cannot possibly work.

applying 20-30v to a 12v lead acid battery is a *really* bad idea.

what you describe is not how lead acid batteries are charged.

take a photo of the charger and/or find one or more links describing it.

Nope. It was over a decade ago.

it doesn't matter when it was.

all it takes is to find a device that charges 12v lead acid batteries
at 20-30v. it doesn't have to be available for purchase anymore.

let's see its specs, how it works, etc.

note that there are chargers that charge *24v* lead acid batteries at
~29v, except that those batteries are not used in cars, nor would a
garage have such a charger because they'll never encounter such a
vehicle.

24v lead acid batteries (usually two 12v in series) are often found in
scooters, wheelchairs, lawn mowers, etc. they also normally have a
custom connector for the charger.

Take my word for it, then you waste your time and find the information.
I did that research at the time.
What you get is my recollection.

your recollection is not substantive.

find a link or even just an article about the existence of such a
charger.

what is working against your claim are countless links about charging
lead acid batteries at a constant current until the terminal voltage
rises to ~2.4v/cell. i already posted the graph of the various stages.

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect and
dangerous thing to do;

exactly why such a device does not exist.

if it did exist, there would be *something* written about it somewhere,
even if it's nothing more than to avoid it.

in fact, it destroyed part of the electronics of
my car. But I did not know what they were doing at the time or I would
have stopped them. I could have sued them.

a bigger question is how many cars were destroyed by this garage.

you should have sued them for destroying your property as well as the
manufacturer of the mythical charger, because such a charger, if it did
exist, could cause explosions, which would cause all sorts of damage
and injuries, possibly fatal.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 22:12 UTC
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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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In article <t5el75$d1f$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

Trying to charge a nominal 12V battery at 30 volts would have unexpected
consequences.

exactly


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Carlos E.R.
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 23:24 UTC
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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 01:24:39 +0200
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On 2022-05-10 23:24, sms wrote:
On 5/10/2022 1:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect and dangerous thing to do; in fact, it destroyed part of the electronics of my car. But I did not know what they were doing at the time or I would have stopped them. I could have sued them.

I don't know where that repair shop would have found such a battery charger unless they were using a 24V charger on a 12V battery.

Nope. Just 12 volt battery, huge garage charger with a setting on "boost" or "super boost" mode.

Something like this, but I don't see documentation on the site:

https://suministrosorozco.com/epages/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70.sf/es_ES/?ObjectPath=/Shops/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70/Products/A807546

The one they used had wheels.


Trying to charge a nominal 12V battery at 30 volts would have unexpected

I think it was rather 20.

consequences. The battery is a huge load with very low internal resistance so in order for the vehicle electronics to be damaged the charger must also have been supplying enormous amounts of current.

Which it did.

CMOS electronics stands 18 volts. Considering that the electronics (the entire display setup) failed maybe two months later, the voltage on the car would have been around 20. The radio survived because it was disconnected. The car was diesel, so no ignition. I think the remote door opener also failed.


The charger was used by someone that was not a full mechanic, but one that was usually on the front desk. A full mechanic would have known that the instructions for that mode say to disconnect the battery from the car because you can fry the electronics. And she did fry the electronics, but unfortunately not instantly, not that minute, so we did not made the connection.

And yes, I did read the documentation, two years later the incident. I found it somewhere, but I do not know the keyword to find it again.

--
Cheers, Carlos.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Lewis
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Miskatonic U
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:01 UTC
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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!kreme.dont-email.me!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:01:37 -0000 (UTC)
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In message <b3kqki-flc.ln1@Telcontar.valinor> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-05-10 14:33, nospam wrote:
In article <f3rpki-c6t.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.

I saw it personally.

Do you also have a picture of a stack of books to "prove" it?

You are so entirely STUPIDLY wrong it's not even funny.

--
Adolescence is the period between childhood and adultery


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Lewis
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Miskatonic U
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:03 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:03:49 -0000 (UTC)
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In message <70qqki-02f.ln1@Telcontar.valinor> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-05-10 20:14, nospam wrote:
In article <b3kqki-flc.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


I saw it personally.

that's not a citation, nor did you see that.

Cite me. I saw it. I am the source.

No you are not. You are an ignorant fool.

--
A dyslexic walks into a bra...


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:04 UTC
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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 20:04:56 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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In article <nq8rki-p6s.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect and
dangerous thing to do; in fact, it destroyed part of the electronics
of my car. But I did not know what they were doing at the time or I
would have stopped them. I could have sued them.

I don't know where that repair shop would have found such a battery
charger unless they were using a 24V charger on a 12V battery.

Nope. Just 12 volt battery, huge garage charger with a setting on
"boost" or "super boost" mode.

those modes are high *current*.

Something like this, but I don't see documentation on the site:


https://suministrosorozco.com/epages/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70.sf/
es_ES/?ObjectPath=/Shops/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70/Products/A807546>

https://www.telwin.com/en/prodotti/index.html?id=807546&lingua=E
https://www.nonpaints.com/en/telwin-alpine-20-boost-portable-electric-b
attery-charger-12-and-24-volt-18-amp-300-watt>

  € Charging current: 18 A

it's also a 12/24v charger. maybe someone set it to 24v, which would
quickly destroy a 12v battery and anything connected to it that was
expecting only 12v (actually 13.8v when the engine is running).

The one they used had wheels.

most high current chargers do.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61PD7OB6rvS._AC_SL1200_.jpg

Trying to charge a nominal 12V battery at 30 volts would have unexpected

I think it was rather 20.

20 amps, sure.

20 volts, definitely no.

if it was manually set for 24v batteries, it would be ~29v.

here's a graph of charging three types of 12v lead acid batteries. note
that the threshold voltage is slightly different for each, and always
under 15v. double the values for a 24 battery.
https://newcontent.westmarine.com/content/wm-img/WestAdvisor/articles/B
attery-Chargers-2.jpg>


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Lewis
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Miskatonic U
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:08 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!kreme.dont-email.me!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:08:09 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Miskatonic U
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In message <j90rki-r9k.ln1@Telcontar.valinor> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-05-10 21:18, nospam wrote:
In article <70qqki-02f.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches the car
itself.

I've never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


I saw it personally.

that's not a citation, nor did you see that.

Cite me. I saw it. I am the source.

that's not how citations work. you can't cite yourself.

I am a witness.

You are a moron who has no idea what you saw, or is simply making shit
up.

what you describe is not how lead acid batteries are charged.

take a photo of the charger and/or find one or more links describing it.

Nope. It was over a decade ago.

And you got the details wrong.

Take my word for it,

Not a chance in hell. I've seen a lead-acid battery pop its acid when
the wrong voltage charger was used, back in the days when VWs had lower
volt batteries that the standard 12V.

then you waste your time and find the information.

There we go, you cannot find any source to back up your claim.
Congratulations, you have now proved your claim is bullshit.

I did that research at the time.

No you didn't.

What you get is my recollection.

Which is worthless.

--
If women wear a pair of pants, a pair of glasses, and a pair of
earrings, why don't they wear a pair of bras?


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Lewis
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Miskatonic U
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:11 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!kreme.dont-email.me!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 00:11:56 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Miskatonic U
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In message <nq8rki-p6s.ln1@Telcontar.valinor> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-05-10 23:24, sms wrote:
On 5/10/2022 1:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect and
dangerous thing to do; in fact, it destroyed part of the electronics
of my car. But I did not know what they were doing at the time or I
would have stopped them. I could have sued them.

I don't know where that repair shop would have found such a battery
charger unless they were using a 24V charger on a 12V battery.

Nope. Just 12 volt battery, huge garage charger with a setting on
"boost" or "super boost" mode.

That is AMPS that are boosted, you numpty moron, not volts.

Something like this, but I don't see documentation on the site:

https://suministrosorozco.com/epages/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70.sf/es_ES/?ObjectPath=/Shops/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70/Products/A807546

Translation:

Battery chargers for charging free electrolyte (WET) batteries with 12/24 V voltage, protection against overloads and inversions
of polarity. Equipped with an ammeter and normal, fast load selector (BOOST) and ammeter.

And:

Charging current 18 A (12 V) 12 A (24 V)

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Wuh, I think so, Brain, but wouldn't anything lose its flavor on the
bedpost overnight?"


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