Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.

Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?

Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?

Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? My rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might require more changes? The debate on pad material too?
Deacon Mark

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 12:06:56 PM UTC-7, Mark Cleary wrote:
> Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
>
> Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?
>
> Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
>
> Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? My rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might require more changes? The debate on pad material too?
> Deacon Mark

The pads are not that delicate. Especially the metallic pads. Shimano hydraulic disks are a breeze to bleed and getting the Shimano kit is the way to go. FLAT bar bikes are a real pain in the butt to bleed since they don't have straight line hydraulics like the road groups. I finally got the flat bar components to bleed by leaving it overnight for the air to slowly bleed out of the open port. At that point I got it to fully bleed. Though perhaps there was a better way by lifting the hydraulic brake levers vertically above the disk calipers so that the reservoir in the levers is open to air. Probably would take some practice but Shimano road levers are a cinch.

On 4/10/2023 2:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
>
> Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?
>
> Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
>
> Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? My rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might require more changes? The debate on pad material too?
> Deacon Mark
>

Yes, just like auto or motorcycle discs, the rotor and pads
need to be kept free of oi, silicone, wax or brake fluid.
For normal occasional use a can of disc brake cleaner is
cheap at any auto parts store or most LBS.

Yes, some systems will bleed if left hanging vertically or
upside down. Don't do that with hydraulic bicycle systems
(or with autos for that matter!)

I don't know what brake or pads you bought but there aren't
any substandard o.e.m. pads on any major brand disc brake.
Worry not.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 9:39:07 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/10/2023 2:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
> >
> > Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?
> >
> > Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
> >
> > Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? My rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might require more changes? The debate on pad material too?
> > Deacon Mark
> >
> Yes, just like auto or motorcycle discs, the rotor and pads
> need to be kept free of oi, silicone, wax or brake fluid.
> For normal occasional use a can of disc brake cleaner is
> cheap at any auto parts store or most LBS.
>
> Yes, some systems will bleed if left hanging vertically or
> upside down. Don't do that with hydraulic bicycle systems
> (or with autos for that matter!)

My storage

https://photos.app.goo.gl/i138tjtiuyyqW4yZ9

Never had any problem. Shifters are still above front caliper.

>
> I don't know what brake or pads you bought but there aren't
> any substandard o.e.m. pads on any major brand disc brake.
> Worry not.

I settled for resin, less prone for squealing then metal. I think wear is less of an issue for Mark as it is for me (flat).
New and improved:

https://www.mantel.com/shimano-l05a-rf-resin-schijfremblokjes

Lou

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 1:07:41 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 9:39:07 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/10/2023 2:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > > Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
> > >
> > > Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?
> > >
> > > Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
> > >
> > > Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? My rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might require more changes? The debate on pad material too?
> > > Deacon Mark
> > >
> > Yes, just like auto or motorcycle discs, the rotor and pads
> > need to be kept free of oi, silicone, wax or brake fluid.
> > For normal occasional use a can of disc brake cleaner is
> > cheap at any auto parts store or most LBS.
> >
> > Yes, some systems will bleed if left hanging vertically or
> > upside down. Don't do that with hydraulic bicycle systems
> > (or with autos for that matter!)
> My storage
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/i138tjtiuyyqW4yZ9
>
> Never had any problem. Shifters are still above front caliper.
> >
> > I don't know what brake or pads you bought but there aren't
> > any substandard o.e.m. pads on any major brand disc brake.
> > Worry not.
> I settled for resin, less prone for squealing then metal. I think wear is less of an issue for Mark as it is for me (flat).
> New and improved:
>
> https://www.mantel.com/shimano-l05a-rf-resin-schijfremblokjes

I really didn't do a lot of testing. The Caliper shoes wore out rapidly of the steep stuff I was riding and I changed over to metallic pads. This had better life but they squealed unless they were in perfect adjustment. I just assumed that the resin pads would do that as well since they did some squealing. One thing that they ALL did was sudden and harsh braking unless you were extremely careful.

Mark Cleary <deaconmjc08@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up
> Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with
> them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for
> guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
>
> Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change
> fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the
> most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups
> for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper
> alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?

>
> Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any
> mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly
> we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain
> oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say
> water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads?
> What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
>
> Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the
> garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? My
> rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years or
> more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might
> require more changes? The debate on pad material too?
> Deacon Mark
>

Overthinking it, in general with brakes they are set up and then don’t need
maintenance for years bar changing pads which I suspect since don’t you get
high mileage from tires? So i suspect pads will be similar.

Roger Merriman

On 4/10/23 12:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
>

Yep, beware of the union toss :-)

> Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?
>

I could not find a bleed kit for my MTB (Promax Decipher hydraulic). So
I simply set the brake reservoirs on the levers horizontal, open them
and do repeated handle squeezes until no more bubbles come up, then top
off the fluid. Worked fine for about seven years now. That takes about
half an hour for both brakes, once a year.

> Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
>

Nah, I ride my MTB through all kinds of muck. Water, cattle pee,
liquified cattle poop and water of interesting color with who knows
what's in it. I don't send a sampling vial to a lab before crossing :-)

Only thing is the brakes sound like a large truck or a big locomotive
braking when wet but that dissipates.

On the flatter trails the rear disk gets caked in trail dust and then
wet. We have a lot of decomposed granite and its dust, including
tremolite (naturally occuring asbestos). This causes a bone-chilling
grinding noise when I have to reach into the rear brake but even that
doesn't seem to harm anything.

> Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? ...

Definitely not advised to do that. Keep the bike upright if you can. I
lay it sideways in my car though when going to a far away trailhead and
that was ok. Upside down might be ok on some system but you never know.
It would be a bummer if you want to go on a ride and find the front
brake has gone soft.

My rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years
or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might
require more changes? The debate on pad material too?

The braking force on hydraulic disks is much better but I assume on road
bikes they'll last. On my MTB the front pads last 1000 to 2000mi
depending on riding turf, the rear longer. However, that us MUCH
different riding than road, up and down, you are in the brakes a lot. To
the point where the disks sometimes need a spritz from the water bottle
.... hissssss.

As for material, I prefer ceramic-based, similar to what offroad
motorcyclists use. It's often only available online but that is way
cheaper than the bike store anyhow. It eats disks faster than resin but
I want all the stopping power I can get and the least amount of fading.
Disk brakes have gotten me out of situations where I could have been
hurt badly. Often operator error, like missing a turn on a gnarly
singletrack. Or get-home-itis, >20mph on singletrack, what could
possibly go wrong?

I've always wondered, is it disk or disc? I regularly see both.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 2:38:39 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 4/10/23 12:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
> >
> Yep, beware of the union toss :-)
> > Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?
> >
> I could not find a bleed kit for my MTB (Promax Decipher hydraulic). So
> I simply set the brake reservoirs on the levers horizontal, open them
> and do repeated handle squeezes until no more bubbles come up, then top
> off the fluid. Worked fine for about seven years now. That takes about
> half an hour for both brakes, once a year.
> > Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
> >
> Nah, I ride my MTB through all kinds of muck. Water, cattle pee,
> liquified cattle poop and water of interesting color with who knows
> what's in it. I don't send a sampling vial to a lab before crossing :-)
>
> Only thing is the brakes sound like a large truck or a big locomotive
> braking when wet but that dissipates.
>
> On the flatter trails the rear disk gets caked in trail dust and then
> wet. We have a lot of decomposed granite and its dust, including
> tremolite (naturally occuring asbestos). This causes a bone-chilling
> grinding noise when I have to reach into the rear brake but even that
> doesn't seem to harm anything.
>
>
> > Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? ...
>
>
> Definitely not advised to do that. Keep the bike upright if you can. I
> lay it sideways in my car though when going to a far away trailhead and
> that was ok. Upside down might be ok on some system but you never know.
> It would be a bummer if you want to go on a ride and find the front
> brake has gone soft.
> My rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years
> or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might
> require more changes? The debate on pad material too?
> The braking force on hydraulic disks is much better but I assume on road
> bikes they'll last. On my MTB the front pads last 1000 to 2000mi
> depending on riding turf, the rear longer. However, that us MUCH
> different riding than road, up and down, you are in the brakes a lot. To
> the point where the disks sometimes need a spritz from the water bottle
> ... hissssss.
>
> As for material, I prefer ceramic-based, similar to what offroad
> motorcyclists use. It's often only available online but that is way
> cheaper than the bike store anyhow. It eats disks faster than resin but
> I want all the stopping power I can get and the least amount of fading.
> Disk brakes have gotten me out of situations where I could have been
> hurt badly. Often operator error, like missing a turn on a gnarly
> singletrack. Or get-home-itis, >20mph on singletrack, what could
> possibly go wrong?
>
> I've always wondered, is it disk or disc? I regularly see both.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
You ride a great deal more than most people but seems to me you did a LOT of climbing. So what was that about riding flats? Have you changed? I hung my lask disk bike levers high to allow the air to bleed all the way to the top overnight. Once the air was out of the reservoir it bled more or less normally.

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 3:39:07 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/10/2023 2:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
> >
> > Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?
> >
> > Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
> >
> > Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? My rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might require more changes? The debate on pad material too?
> > Deacon Mark
> >
> Yes, just like auto or motorcycle discs, the rotor and pads
> need to be kept free of oi, silicone, wax or brake fluid.
> For normal occasional use a can of disc brake cleaner is
> cheap at any auto parts store or most LBS.
>
> Yes, some systems will bleed if left hanging vertically or
> upside down. Don't do that with hydraulic bicycle systems
> (or with autos for that matter!)

lol...I'm imagining kunich claiming he has hooks for his vast collection of TR7s

>
> I don't know what brake or pads you bought but there aren't
> any substandard o.e.m. pads on any major brand disc brake.
> Worry not.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 2:38:39 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 4/10/23 12:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
> >
> Yep, beware of the union toss :-)
> > Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?
> >
> I could not find a bleed kit for my MTB (Promax Decipher hydraulic). So
> I simply set the brake reservoirs on the levers horizontal, open them
> and do repeated handle squeezes until no more bubbles come up, then top
> off the fluid. Worked fine for about seven years now. That takes about
> half an hour for both brakes, once a year.
> > Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
> >
> Nah, I ride my MTB through all kinds of muck. Water, cattle pee,
> liquified cattle poop and water of interesting color with who knows
> what's in it. I don't send a sampling vial to a lab before crossing :-)
>
> Only thing is the brakes sound like a large truck or a big locomotive
> braking when wet but that dissipates.
>
> On the flatter trails the rear disk gets caked in trail dust and then
> wet. We have a lot of decomposed granite and its dust, including
> tremolite (naturally occuring asbestos). This causes a bone-chilling
> grinding noise when I have to reach into the rear brake but even that
> doesn't seem to harm anything.
>
>
> > Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird over time? ...
>
>
> Definitely not advised to do that. Keep the bike upright if you can. I
> lay it sideways in my car though when going to a far away trailhead and
> that was ok. Upside down might be ok on some system but you never know.
> It would be a bummer if you want to go on a ride and find the front
> brake has gone soft.
> My rim brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years
> or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might
> require more changes? The debate on pad material too?
> The braking force on hydraulic disks is much better but I assume on road
> bikes they'll last. On my MTB the front pads last 1000 to 2000mi
> depending on riding turf, the rear longer. However, that us MUCH
> different riding than road, up and down, you are in the brakes a lot. To
> the point where the disks sometimes need a spritz from the water bottle
> ... hissssss.
>
> As for material, I prefer ceramic-based, similar to what offroad
> motorcyclists use. It's often only available online but that is way
> cheaper than the bike store anyhow. It eats disks faster than resin but
> I want all the stopping power I can get and the least amount of fading.
> Disk brakes have gotten me out of situations where I could have been
> hurt badly. Often operator error, like missing a turn on a gnarly
> singletrack. Or get-home-itis, >20mph on singletrack, what could
> possibly go wrong?
>
> I've always wondered, is it disk or disc? I regularly see both.

Because of the viscosity of the hydraulic fluid you have to fill the reservoirs and let the setup lay overnight with the air slowly working its way up the lines. I was quite surprised that this was necessary even with a factory bleeding kit. When you pull the handle it blocks off the reservoir to keep from simply blowing the fluid out of the reservoir vent. I had given up and was going to take it in to the shop the next day but when I got up and pulled the handle most of the air in the system was gone. Since all of the air was now at the top of the system I simply refilled the reservoir and used the bleed to pump the remainder out of the system. After than it didn't give me a moments problem.

On 4/11/23 8:27 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 2:38:39 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 4/10/23 12:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>> Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show
>>> up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive
>>> guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have
>>> been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
>>>
>> Yep, beware of the union toss :-)
>>> Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air,
>>> change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the
>>> Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did
>>> a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be
>>> able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the
>>> options?
>>>
>> I could not find a bleed kit for my MTB (Promax Decipher
>> hydraulic). So I simply set the brake reservoirs on the levers
>> horizontal, open them and do repeated handle squeezes until no more
>> bubbles come up, then top off the fluid. Worked fine for about
>> seven years now. That takes about half an hour for both brakes,
>> once a year.
>>> Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want
>>> any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see
>>> but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of
>>> water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash
>>> your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does
>>> these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you
>>> think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
>>>
>> Nah, I ride my MTB through all kinds of muck. Water, cattle pee,
>> liquified cattle poop and water of interesting color with who
>> knows what's in it. I don't send a sampling vial to a lab before
>> crossing :-)
>>
>> Only thing is the brakes sound like a large truck or a big
>> locomotive braking when wet but that dissipates.
>>
>> On the flatter trails the rear disk gets caked in trail dust and
>> then wet. We have a lot of decomposed granite and its dust,
>> including tremolite (naturally occuring asbestos). This causes a
>> bone-chilling grinding noise when I have to reach into the rear
>> brake but even that doesn't seem to harm anything.
>>
>>
>>> Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in
>>> the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird
>>> over time? ...
>>
>>
>> Definitely not advised to do that. Keep the bike upright if you
>> can. I lay it sideways in my car though when going to a far away
>> trailhead and that was ok. Upside down might be ok on some system
>> but you never know. It would be a bummer if you want to go on a
>> ride and find the front brake has gone soft. My rim brake bike gets
>> Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years or more I don't
>> stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might require more
>> changes? The debate on pad material too? The braking force on
>> hydraulic disks is much better but I assume on road bikes they'll
>> last. On my MTB the front pads last 1000 to 2000mi depending on
>> riding turf, the rear longer. However, that us MUCH different
>> riding than road, up and down, you are in the brakes a lot. To the
>> point where the disks sometimes need a spritz from the water
>> bottle ... hissssss.
>>
>> As for material, I prefer ceramic-based, similar to what offroad
>> motorcyclists use. It's often only available online but that is
>> way cheaper than the bike store anyhow. It eats disks faster than
>> resin but I want all the stopping power I can get and the least
>> amount of fading. Disk brakes have gotten me out of situations
>> where I could have been hurt badly. Often operator error, like
>> missing a turn on a gnarly singletrack. Or get-home-itis, >20mph on
>> singletrack, what could possibly go wrong?
>>
>> I've always wondered, is it disk or disc? I regularly see both.
>
> Because of the viscosity of the hydraulic fluid you have to fill the
> reservoirs and let the setup lay overnight with the air slowly
> working its way up the lines. I was quite surprised that this was
> necessary even with a factory bleeding kit. When you pull the handle
> it blocks off the reservoir to keep from simply blowing the fluid out
> of the reservoir vent. ...

Bicycle hydraulic brake systems generally do not have such a vent while
the ones on motor vehicles do. It's a closed system. For gas release I
have to set the brake handle reservoirs straight and take their lids
off. Then I pump the handles many times until no more micro-bubbles come
up. Afterwards I top off the fluid and put the lids back on. Make sure
to have a good wad of wrap around there because brake fluid drips can
leave nasty stains on whatever they land on.

> ... I had given up and was going to take it in to
> the shop the next day but when I got up and pulled the handle most of
> the air in the system was gone. Since all of the air was now at the
> top of the system I simply refilled the reservoir and used the bleed
> to pump the remainder out of the system. After than it didn't give me
> a moments problem.
>

With my procedure above I always end up with a nice hard lever feel and
very responsive brakes.

Regarding hills (your other post), yes, it's rather hilly around here. I
also used to do lots of flatland rides but not much anympre. Being an
involuntary 24/7 family medical cargiver now I cannot leave home for
more than 2h at a time anymore, unless I can line of respite caregivers
which is tough. So that confines me to the hilly region.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 12:42:02 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 4/11/23 8:27 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 2:38:39 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 4/10/23 12:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >>> Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to show
> >>> up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship expensive
> >>> guitars with them they don't handle the packages too well. I have
> >>> been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed Ex.
> >>>
> >> Yep, beware of the union toss :-)
> >>> Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed air,
> >>> change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits available and the
> >>> Park is the most expensive. Would probably just get that if I did
> >>> a lot of tune ups for folks but my guess is for myself I might be
> >>> able to find a cheaper alternative. Is the wise, and what are the
> >>> options?
> >>>
> >> I could not find a bleed kit for my MTB (Promax Decipher
> >> hydraulic). So I simply set the brake reservoirs on the levers
> >> horizontal, open them and do repeated handle squeezes until no more
> >> bubbles come up, then top off the fluid. Worked fine for about
> >> seven years now. That takes about half an hour for both brakes,
> >> once a year.
> >>> Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't want
> >>> any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I can see
> >>> but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather, and pools of
> >>> water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can you still wash
> >>> your bike as normal with say water and a hose if needed. Does
> >>> these present problems for the pads? What kind of pad do you
> >>> think I am getting they are Shimano 105 7020 shifters?
> >>>
> >> Nah, I ride my MTB through all kinds of muck. Water, cattle pee,
> >> liquified cattle poop and water of interesting color with who
> >> knows what's in it. I don't send a sampling vial to a lab before
> >> crossing :-)
> >>
> >> Only thing is the brakes sound like a large truck or a big
> >> locomotive braking when wet but that dissipates.
> >>
> >> On the flatter trails the rear disk gets caked in trail dust and
> >> then wet. We have a lot of decomposed granite and its dust,
> >> including tremolite (naturally occuring asbestos). This causes a
> >> bone-chilling grinding noise when I have to reach into the rear
> >> brake but even that doesn't seem to harm anything.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down in
> >>> the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting weird
> >>> over time? ...
> >>
> >>
> >> Definitely not advised to do that. Keep the bike upright if you
> >> can. I lay it sideways in my car though when going to a far away
> >> trailhead and that was ok. Upside down might be ok on some system
> >> but you never know. It would be a bummer if you want to go on a
> >> ride and find the front brake has gone soft. My rim brake bike gets
> >> Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2 years or more I don't
> >> stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I assume might require more
> >> changes? The debate on pad material too? The braking force on
> >> hydraulic disks is much better but I assume on road bikes they'll
> >> last. On my MTB the front pads last 1000 to 2000mi depending on
> >> riding turf, the rear longer. However, that us MUCH different
> >> riding than road, up and down, you are in the brakes a lot. To the
> >> point where the disks sometimes need a spritz from the water
> >> bottle ... hissssss.
> >>
> >> As for material, I prefer ceramic-based, similar to what offroad
> >> motorcyclists use. It's often only available online but that is
> >> way cheaper than the bike store anyhow. It eats disks faster than
> >> resin but I want all the stopping power I can get and the least
> >> amount of fading. Disk brakes have gotten me out of situations
> >> where I could have been hurt badly. Often operator error, like
> >> missing a turn on a gnarly singletrack. Or get-home-itis, >20mph on
> >> singletrack, what could possibly go wrong?
> >>
> >> I've always wondered, is it disk or disc? I regularly see both.
> >
> > Because of the viscosity of the hydraulic fluid you have to fill the
> > reservoirs and let the setup lay overnight with the air slowly
> > working its way up the lines. I was quite surprised that this was
> > necessary even with a factory bleeding kit. When you pull the handle
> > it blocks off the reservoir to keep from simply blowing the fluid out
> > of the reservoir vent. ...
>
>
> Bicycle hydraulic brake systems generally do not have such a vent while
> the ones on motor vehicles do. It's a closed system. For gas release I
> have to set the brake handle reservoirs straight and take their lids
> off. Then I pump the handles many times until no more micro-bubbles come
> up. Afterwards I top off the fluid and put the lids back on. Make sure
> to have a good wad of wrap around there because brake fluid drips can
> leave nasty stains on whatever they land on.
>
>
> > ... I had given up and was going to take it in to
> > the shop the next day but when I got up and pulled the handle most of
> > the air in the system was gone. Since all of the air was now at the
> > top of the system I simply refilled the reservoir and used the bleed
> > to pump the remainder out of the system. After than it didn't give me
> > a moments problem.
> >
> With my procedure above I always end up with a nice hard lever feel and
> very responsive brakes.
>
> Regarding hills (your other post), yes, it's rather hilly around here. I
> also used to do lots of flatland rides but not much anympre. Being an
> involuntary 24/7 family medical cargiver now I cannot leave home for
> more than 2h at a time anymore, unless I can line of respite caregivers
> which is tough. So that confines me to the hilly region.
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

The flat bar levers I was talking about would NOT bleed air because they were empty and pulling the lever didn't seem to suck any fluid into them. Leaving them overnight, the air slowly exited and in the morning I could pump the lever and slowly eject the air out of the system. The vent I was talking about was the open bleed vent. Yes it is a closed system but only after you bleed the air out and replace the cap screw.

On 4/24/23 1:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 12:42:02 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 4/11/23 8:27 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 2:38:39 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/23 12:06 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>>> Well according to UPS my Habanero Road DIsk bike supposed to
>>>>> show up Thursday. UPS is fine for bikes but don't ship
>>>>> expensive guitars with them they don't handle the packages
>>>>> too well. I have been lucky but for guitars I ship with Fed
>>>>> Ex.
>>>>>
>>>> Yep, beware of the union toss :-)
>>>>> Ok, I reviewed all the disk brakes stuff and how to bleed
>>>>> air, change fluid, and add fluid. Seems lots of kits
>>>>> available and the Park is the most expensive. Would probably
>>>>> just get that if I did a lot of tune ups for folks but my
>>>>> guess is for myself I might be able to find a cheaper
>>>>> alternative. Is the wise, and what are the options?
>>>>>
>>>> I could not find a bleed kit for my MTB (Promax Decipher
>>>> hydraulic). So I simply set the brake reservoirs on the levers
>>>> horizontal, open them and do repeated handle squeezes until no
>>>> more bubbles come up, then top off the fluid. Worked fine for
>>>> about seven years now. That takes about half an hour for both
>>>> brakes, once a year.
>>>>> Finally, the pads seems to be delicate in that they don't
>>>>> want any mineral oil or contaminants getting on them. That I
>>>>> can see but frankly we ride bikes in the rain and weather,
>>>>> and pools of water that contain oil and oily compounds. Can
>>>>> you still wash your bike as normal with say water and a hose
>>>>> if needed. Does these present problems for the pads? What
>>>>> kind of pad do you think I am getting they are Shimano 105
>>>>> 7020 shifters?
>>>>>
>>>> Nah, I ride my MTB through all kinds of muck. Water, cattle
>>>> pee, liquified cattle poop and water of interesting color with
>>>> who knows what's in it. I don't send a sampling vial to a lab
>>>> before crossing :-)
>>>>
>>>> Only thing is the brakes sound like a large truck or a big
>>>> locomotive braking when wet but that dissipates.
>>>>
>>>> On the flatter trails the rear disk gets caked in trail dust
>>>> and then wet. We have a lot of decomposed granite and its
>>>> dust, including tremolite (naturally occuring asbestos). This
>>>> causes a bone-chilling grinding noise when I have to reach into
>>>> the rear brake but even that doesn't seem to harm anything.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Now that I think about should I not hang the bike upside down
>>>>> in the garage like my rim brake bike, will the fluid getting
>>>>> weird over time? ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Definitely not advised to do that. Keep the bike upright if
>>>> you can. I lay it sideways in my car though when going to a far
>>>> away trailhead and that was ok. Upside down might be ok on some
>>>> system but you never know. It would be a bummer if you want to
>>>> go on a ride and find the front brake has gone soft. My rim
>>>> brake bike gets Kool Stop pads and they last me at least 2
>>>> years or more I don't stop heavy and ride in the flats. Disk I
>>>> assume might require more changes? The debate on pad material
>>>> too? The braking force on hydraulic disks is much better but I
>>>> assume on road bikes they'll last. On my MTB the front pads
>>>> last 1000 to 2000mi depending on riding turf, the rear longer.
>>>> However, that us MUCH different riding than road, up and down,
>>>> you are in the brakes a lot. To the point where the disks
>>>> sometimes need a spritz from the water bottle ... hissssss.
>>>>
>>>> As for material, I prefer ceramic-based, similar to what
>>>> offroad motorcyclists use. It's often only available online but
>>>> that is way cheaper than the bike store anyhow. It eats disks
>>>> faster than resin but I want all the stopping power I can get
>>>> and the least amount of fading. Disk brakes have gotten me out
>>>> of situations where I could have been hurt badly. Often
>>>> operator error, like missing a turn on a gnarly singletrack. Or
>>>> get-home-itis, >20mph on singletrack, what could possibly go
>>>> wrong?
>>>>
>>>> I've always wondered, is it disk or disc? I regularly see
>>>> both.
>>>
>>> Because of the viscosity of the hydraulic fluid you have to fill
>>> the reservoirs and let the setup lay overnight with the air
>>> slowly working its way up the lines. I was quite surprised that
>>> this was necessary even with a factory bleeding kit. When you
>>> pull the handle it blocks off the reservoir to keep from simply
>>> blowing the fluid out of the reservoir vent. ...
>>
>>
>> Bicycle hydraulic brake systems generally do not have such a vent
>> while the ones on motor vehicles do. It's a closed system. For gas
>> release I have to set the brake handle reservoirs straight and take
>> their lids off. Then I pump the handles many times until no more
>> micro-bubbles come up. Afterwards I top off the fluid and put the
>> lids back on. Make sure to have a good wad of wrap around there
>> because brake fluid drips can leave nasty stains on whatever they
>> land on.
>>
>>
>>> ... I had given up and was going to take it in to the shop the
>>> next day but when I got up and pulled the handle most of the air
>>> in the system was gone. Since all of the air was now at the top
>>> of the system I simply refilled the reservoir and used the bleed
>>> to pump the remainder out of the system. After than it didn't
>>> give me a moments problem.
>>>
>> With my procedure above I always end up with a nice hard lever feel
>> and very responsive brakes.
>>
>> Regarding hills (your other post), yes, it's rather hilly around
>> here. I also used to do lots of flatland rides but not much
>> anympre. Being an involuntary 24/7 family medical cargiver now I
>> cannot leave home for more than 2h at a time anymore, unless I can
>> line of respite caregivers which is tough. So that confines me to
>> the hilly region. -- Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> The flat bar levers I was talking about would NOT bleed air because
> they were empty and pulling the lever didn't seem to suck any fluid
> into them. Leaving them overnight, the air slowly exited and in the
> morning I could pump the lever and slowly eject the air out of the
> system. The vent I was talking about was the open bleed vent. Yes it
> is a closed system but only after you bleed the air out and replace
> the cap screw.
>

Ah, ok. Though hydraulic brake levers on a bicycle should never be empty.

Also, it's not so good to let a bike brake system sit open overnight. On
motor vehicles the high energy coming from brake action causes air to be
vaporized out the top but bicycles don't generate that much heat (except
MTB on a long downhill) and they also can't vent. Brake fluid is quite
hygroscopic so with that method you might end up with a brake system
that seems well bled but where, on a long descent, the water content in
the fluid causes it to boil and then you may completely lose one of the
brakes, and rather suddenly. Happened to an MTB buddy of mine but being
an experienced dirt bike rider he managed with an impressive slide,
rocks flying and all.

IOW I would not do that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/