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tech / sci.astro.amateur / Re: Here we go again

SubjectAuthor
* Here we go againkellehe...@gmail.com
+* Re: Here we go againChris L Peterson
|`* Re: Here we go againkellehe...@gmail.com
| `- Re: Here we go againkellehe...@gmail.com
`* Re: Here we go againQuadibloc
 `* Re: Here we go againChris L Peterson
  `- Re: Here we go againfred k. engels®

1
Here we go again

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Subject: Here we go again
From: kelleher...@gmail.com (kellehe...@gmail.com)
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 by: kellehe...@gmail.com - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 14:28 UTC

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/25/science/time-second-measurement.html

The second is not a unit of time, it is a unit of timekeeping with a very specific trajectory of historical events leading to its adoption along with the equable minute and hour.

The phony histories surrounding the distance a second from its roots in the daily and annual cycles of the Earth should now be long gone as observers become accustomed to the actual trajectory of events within written history along with an approved use of satellite imaging.

The disruptive reasoning interferes with the reason for the variations in the natural noon cycle through which the average/equable 24 hour day is derived and with it the equable hour, minute and second as subdivisions of the equable 24 hour average.

Attempting to lock out the variable surface rotation in response to the variable orbital velocities of the Earth and registers as the variations in the daily cycles with the central Sun as a reference is crucial for many dozens of topics and planetary dynamics.

Re: Here we go again

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Here we go again
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:56 UTC

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:28:26 -0700 (PDT), "kellehe...@gmail.com"
<kelleher.gerald@gmail.com> wrote:

>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/25/science/time-second-measurement.html
>
>The second is not a unit of time, it is a unit of timekeeping with a very specific trajectory of historical events leading to its adoption along with the equable minute and hour.

The second is a unit of time which is historically related to
primitive timekeeping methods, but is now attached to physical
constants, so that any technological species in the Universe could
understand and replicate it. All other units of time are simply
derived from the second.

Re: Here we go again

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Subject: Re: Here we go again
From: kelleher...@gmail.com (kellehe...@gmail.com)
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 by: kellehe...@gmail.com - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 19:20 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 5:56:49 PM UTC+1, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:28:26 -0700 (PDT), "kellehe...@gmail.com"
> <kellehe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/25/science/time-second-measurement.html
> >
> >The second is not a unit of time, it is a unit of timekeeping with a very specific trajectory of historical events leading to its adoption along with the equable minute and hour.
> The second is a unit of time which is historically related to
> primitive timekeeping methods, but is now attached to physical
> constants, so that any technological species in the Universe could
> understand and replicate it. All other units of time are simply
> derived from the second.

The fundamental unit of timekeeping is a proportion.

Timekeeping, including the average/equable 24 hour day and splintered into equable hours, minutes and seconds, is based on a proportion between two cycles.

The first reference is a product of the orbital motion of the Earth and specifically the first annual appearance of a star from behind the glare of the central Sun as that star emerges far enough to the right of the Sun.

The second reference is the noon/sunrise/sunset cycle and the number of this times this event occurs relative to the first annual appearance of the star-

".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree, 238 BC

Translated into planetary dynamics, the number of times the planet turns daily for the number of times the planet orbits the Sun is a proportions of 4 orbital circuits for 1461 rotations of the planet to a close proximity. This then converts into the recognisable 365 1/4 rotations per circuit without any fixed reference with further refinements needed to make the proportion more accurate.

Experimental theorists insist there are 366 1/4 rotations per circuit based on an RA/Dec assumption which in turns represents the foundation for the clockwork solar system of Sir Isaac and his hapless followers.

Having explained the principle foundation by way of planetary dynamics, the next step is strictly the relationship between timekeeping and the variations at a local level and determined by the variations in natural noon. The hour, minute and second are dependent on the averaging process which links natural noon to clock noon so that average converts into constant rotation via the Lat/Long system.

Re: Here we go again

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Subject: Re: Here we go again
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 04:39 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 8:28:28 AM UTC-6, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote:

> The second is not a unit of time, it is a unit of timekeeping

It is true that changing to the use of atomic time as the basis for our current official
system of timekeeping has led to inconveniences like leap seconds. Historically,
the second was derived from the solar day.
Why didn't we keep things that way? Why did scientists and engineers insist on tying
the second to things like a particular spectral line of a particular substance, so that the
second and the solar day can actually go out of sync?
I can't blame you for *asking that question*, but I do blame you for wilfully rejecting the
answer.
Tidal forces, caused by the gravity of the Sun and Moon, cause the Earth's rotation to
slow down by a minute amount over the centuries. For purposes of science and engineering,
a second that changes in length is intolerable. It must be possible to state physical laws in
an accurate fashion that is not complicated by correction factors taking the changed rotation
of the Earth into account.
Having a fixed, unalterable standard of time makes the mathematical formulation of physical
laws simpler. From that foundation, we can predict how electronic devices work, how
mechanical devices work, and we can predict the motions of the Earth, the Moon, and the other
planets.
Before there were "leap-seconds", the need for an unchanging standard of time was
recognized specifically in connection with the movements of the planets. Simon Newcomb
used such a scale of time in his _Tables of the Sun_ in 1895, and it became the basis
for the official time standard of Ephemeris Time in 1952, when the discrepancies became
noticeable.
The SI second, a unit of time on the basis of which units like the ohm, the farad, and the henry
are defined, was based on the length of a second of Ephemeris Time, which is why we have
leap seconds now that we no longer use a second that changes its length every year within our
civil time.

John Savard

Re: Here we go again

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Here we go again
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 13:46 UTC

On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 21:39:43 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>Tidal forces, caused by the gravity of the Sun and Moon, cause the Earth's rotation to
>slow down by a minute amount over the centuries. For purposes of science and engineering,
>a second that changes in length is intolerable.

In essence, what we did was change the second from a unit of
timekeeping (which Gerald seems to require it to be) to a unit of
time.

Had we left the second tied to the motion of the Earth (which we could
have), we'd simply have needed to invent a new unit that could be used
for anything that depended upon describing the laws of nature.

Re: Here we go again

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Subject: Re: Here we go again
From: kelleher...@gmail.com (kellehe...@gmail.com)
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 by: kellehe...@gmail.com - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 15:33 UTC

The creation of the average 24 hour day is an extension of the sunrise/noon/sunset cycles where the proportion is 1461 rotations for 4 orbital circuits using external cyclical references and reduces to 365 1/4 rotations per circuit without an external reference. A further refinement is required, but this can be set aside as a separate technical issue.

If a complete sunrise/noon/sunset cycle was measured individually using noon as the anchor, no two cycles would be the same, so although each 24 hour cycle could be divided into hours, minutes and seconds, there would be no equality in an hour, minute and second from one cycle to the next. The answer to this is best explained by a sand or water clock which would register different quantities of sand or water for each complete cycle. If 100 cycles were measured consecutively, then different amounts would result. If the 100 cycles were combined and then divided equally, it would produce an average without losing the anchor to noon which would even out across time. This is what the Equation of Time does as a timekeeping facility by reducing the variations in the natural noon cycle to a 24 hour average by keeping noon as an anchor.

Once the average 24 hour day is ascertained, then average hours, minutes and seconds can be equated to that 24 hour day such as 24 equable hours, 1,440 minutes or 86,400 seconds. Once this type of precision is reached in mechanical form, it becomes possible to measure cycles from beginning to end more accurately. This includes the daily return of a star to the same location in 23 hours 56 minutes 04 seconds.

The subtlety of the next process is how to convert the average 24 hour day into constant rotation at a rate of 15 degrees per hour and once in 24 hours and what is ultimately the Lat/Long and GPS frameworks built around the Earth geometry and rotation. It is the use of the words 'average' and 'constant' that do the trick insofar as the Equation of Time keeps the average 24 hour day anchored to natural noon. It is possible to say that the average flow of water through a pipe is the same as a constant flow of water through a pipe so likewise with 24 hour timekeeping and its relationship to natural noon as the Sun crosses the observer's longitude meridian.

Once these steps are considered, it becomes possible to see where using RA/Dec should not be in competition with the framework for constant/average rotation using the central/noon Sun as a reference. RA/Dec can exist as a separate timekeeping flexibility like time zones or DST which are also outriggers of the 24 hour and Lat/Long system.

Re: Here we go again

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From: burynulP...@ppllaanneett.nnll (fred k. engels®)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Here we go again
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 by: fred k. engels® - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:53 UTC

WONDERFUL NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!
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another massive 53 satellites!!!!!!!!!!!!

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