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tech / sci.astro.amateur / Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
+* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
|+- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
|`- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaNinapenda Jibini
`* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
 `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaStarDust
  +* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |+* Re: Drilling into the ice on Europafred k. engels®
  ||+* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |||`- Re: Drilling into the ice on Europapalsing
  ||`* Re: Drilling into the ice on Europapalsing
  || `- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  |`* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaStarDust
  | `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |  `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
  |   `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |    +- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |    `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  |     `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |      `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  |       +- Re: Drilling into the ice on Europafred k. engels®
  |       `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |        `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  |         `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |          +- Re: Drilling into the ice on Europakellehe...@gmail.com
  |          `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
  |           `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |            `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
  |             `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |              `- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  `- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson

Pages:12
Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<t43hq1$11qa$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 14:02:56 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 13:02 UTC

On 24/04/2022 02:22, RichA wrote:
> How more difficult would it be to drill through 4-5km of ice at -160 deg. C.
>
> https://phys.org/news/2022-04-jupiter-moon-closer-surface-thought.html
>

If you don't care about being able to transmit a signal back out again
then being able to maintain a temperature above 1C and wait would
probably be good enough. The warmer it is the better rate of progress
but not too hot. Sort of thing a radioisotope thermal generator might be
good at - you could use the waste heat to soften the ice a bit and
counter rotating blades to cut into it.

Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.

Relying on acoustic transducers for the probe to talk back to a surface
lander would be one way of doing it cheaply. Sterilising the probe is
essential just in case there really is something novel alive deep in the
Europan oceans.

Shades of ACC's 2010...

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<2bma6hpjt46e2uktqcg5n3fftd7a5jtu8g@4ax.com>

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 14:10 UTC

On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 14:02:56 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 24/04/2022 02:22, RichA wrote:
>> How more difficult would it be to drill through 4-5km of ice at -160 deg. C.
>>
>> https://phys.org/news/2022-04-jupiter-moon-closer-surface-thought.html
>>
>
>If you don't care about being able to transmit a signal back out again
>then being able to maintain a temperature above 1C and wait would
>probably be good enough. The warmer it is the better rate of progress
>but not too hot. Sort of thing a radioisotope thermal generator might be
>good at - you could use the waste heat to soften the ice a bit and
>counter rotating blades to cut into it.
>
>Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.
>
>Relying on acoustic transducers for the probe to talk back to a surface
>lander would be one way of doing it cheaply. Sterilising the probe is
>essential just in case there really is something novel alive deep in the
>Europan oceans.
>
>Shades of ACC's 2010...

You'd also need to pump the meltwater back up to the surface, and keep
it from freezing on that trip... which might take quite a lot of
energy. Assuming you want to keep the channel open.

Or... maybe your probe carries a spool with a few kilometers of fiber
optic, and unrolls it as you go down, and just lets it freeze back in
behind it. That essentially gives you another instrument, as well,
since a fiber in the ice like this produces loads of seismic data.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<t43o6f$1nkt$2@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 15:51:59 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 14:51 UTC

On 24/04/2022 15:10, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 14:02:56 +0100, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 24/04/2022 02:22, RichA wrote:
>>> How more difficult would it be to drill through 4-5km of ice at -160 deg. C.
>>>
>>> https://phys.org/news/2022-04-jupiter-moon-closer-surface-thought.html
>>>
>>
>> If you don't care about being able to transmit a signal back out again
>> then being able to maintain a temperature above 1C and wait would
>> probably be good enough. The warmer it is the better rate of progress
>> but not too hot. Sort of thing a radioisotope thermal generator might be
>> good at - you could use the waste heat to soften the ice a bit and
>> counter rotating blades to cut into it.
>>
>> Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.
>>
>> Relying on acoustic transducers for the probe to talk back to a surface
>> lander would be one way of doing it cheaply. Sterilising the probe is
>> essential just in case there really is something novel alive deep in the
>> Europan oceans.
>>
>> Shades of ACC's 2010...
>
> You'd also need to pump the meltwater back up to the surface, and keep
> it from freezing on that trip... which might take quite a lot of
> energy. Assuming you want to keep the channel open.

I was envisaging minimum energy solution which is allow the melt water
slush to freeze behind the probe.
>
> Or... maybe your probe carries a spool with a few kilometers of fiber
> optic, and unrolls it as you go down, and just lets it freeze back in
> behind it. That essentially gives you another instrument, as well,
> since a fiber in the ice like this produces loads of seismic data.

It might well work - certainly a lot more bandwidth that way.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<XnsAE837F26AA872taustincagmailcom@85.12.62.245>

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: tausti...@gmail.com (Ninapenda Jibini)
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 by: Ninapenda Jibini - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 19:29 UTC

Chris L Peterson <clp@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote in
news:2bma6hpjt46e2uktqcg5n3fftd7a5jtu8g@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 14:02:56 +0100, Martin Brown
> <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 24/04/2022 02:22, RichA wrote:
>>> How more difficult would it be to drill through 4-5km of ice
>>> at -160 deg. C.
>>>
>>> https://phys.org/news/2022-04-jupiter-moon-closer-surface-thoug
>>> ht.html
>>>
>>
>>If you don't care about being able to transmit a signal back out
>>again then being able to maintain a temperature above 1C and
>>wait would probably be good enough. The warmer it is the better
>>rate of progress but not too hot. Sort of thing a radioisotope
>>thermal generator might be good at - you could use the waste
>>heat to soften the ice a bit and counter rotating blades to cut
>>into it.
>>
>>Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.
>>
>>Relying on acoustic transducers for the probe to talk back to a
>>surface lander would be one way of doing it cheaply. Sterilising
>>the probe is essential just in case there really is something
>>novel alive deep in the Europan oceans.
>>
>>Shades of ACC's 2010...
>
> You'd also need to pump the meltwater back up to the surface,
> and keep it from freezing on that trip... which might take quite
> a lot of energy.

The pump would be a good source of heat for the melting part.
Though pumping liquid water for multiple kilometers would take
quite a lot of energy.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 04:45 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>
> Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.

Water ice at cryogenic temperatures is almost as hard and tough as granite.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: csok...@gmail.com (StarDust)
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 by: StarDust - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 04:54 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:45:56 PM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> >
> > Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.
> Water ice at cryogenic temperatures is almost as hard and tough as granite.

Actually, granite is not that hard!
Diamond coring drill goes through it like butter.
Done that, when through holes had be drilled into precision granite surface plate, because measuring instruments were mounted to it!

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 14:40 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 12:54:24 AM UTC-4, StarDust wrote:
> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:45:56 PM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > >
> > > Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.
> >
> > Water ice at cryogenic temperatures is almost as hard and tough as granite.
>
> Actually, granite is not that hard!
> Diamond coring drill goes through it like butter.
> Done that, when through holes had be drilled into precision granite surface plate, because measuring instruments were mounted to it!

Granite is hard enough that it can be used as aggregate in concrete and asphalt and
used to build highway pavement that can carry thousands of large trucks per day.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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From: burynulP...@ppllaanneett.nnll (fred k. engels®)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:58:35 -0700
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 by: fred k. engels® - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 14:58 UTC

Ok, goodnight folks. lock.gif
This topic has obviously run its course.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 18:11 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, fred k. engels® wrote:
> Ok, goodnight folks. lock.gif
> This topic has obviously run its course.

The chemical characteristics of water ice at cryogenic temperatures
is definitely on-topic.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: pnals...@gmail.com (palsing)
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 by: palsing - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 02:56 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:58:42 AM UTC-7, fred k. engels® wrote:
> Ok, goodnight folks. lock.gif
> This topic has obviously run its course.

Who died and made you King?

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: pnals...@gmail.com (palsing)
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 by: palsing - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 02:58 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 11:11:10 AM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, fred k. engels® wrote:
> > Ok, goodnight folks. lock.gif
> > This topic has obviously run its course.

> The chemical characteristics of water ice at cryogenic temperatures
> is definitely on-topic.

I'm pretty sure that talking about planetary exploration falls under the very broad subject of 'astronomy'...

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: csok...@gmail.com (StarDust)
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 by: StarDust - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 03:13 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:40:34 AM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 12:54:24 AM UTC-4, StarDust wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:45:56 PM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
> > > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.
> > >
> > > Water ice at cryogenic temperatures is almost as hard and tough as granite.
> >
> > Actually, granite is not that hard!
> > Diamond coring drill goes through it like butter.
> > Done that, when through holes had be drilled into precision granite surface plate, because measuring instruments were mounted to it!
> Granite is hard enough that it can be used as aggregate in concrete and asphalt and
> used to build highway pavement that can carry thousands of large trucks per day.

Da!
Is asphalt hard?

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<0rue6hl1ofa6ct2q238ut2nb5a4uf7b5tk@4ax.com>

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 04:56 UTC

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 19:56:23 -0700 (PDT), palsing <pnalsing@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:58:42 AM UTC-7, fred k. engels® wrote:
>> Ok, goodnight folks. lock.gif
>> This topic has obviously run its course.
>
>Who died and made you King?

It's just some kind of bot. Ignore it.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<d3b29e42-b6ff-4a9c-9047-9bfdfe6a5a82n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 03:13 UTC

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 11:13:17 PM UTC-4, StarDust wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:40:34 AM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
> > On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 12:54:24 AM UTC-4, StarDust wrote:
> > > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:45:56 PM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.
> > > >
> > > > Water ice at cryogenic temperatures is almost as hard and tough as granite.
> > >
> > > Actually, granite is not that hard!
> > > Diamond coring drill goes through it like butter.
> > > Done that, when through holes had be drilled into precision granite surface plate, because measuring instruments were mounted to it!
> > Granite is hard enough that it can be used as aggregate in concrete and asphalt and
> > used to build highway pavement that can carry thousands of large trucks per day.
> Da!
> Is asphalt hard?

Asphalt concrete is hard.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 09:20:52 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 08:20 UTC

On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 11:13:17 PM UTC-4, StarDust wrote:
>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:40:34 AM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 12:54:24 AM UTC-4, StarDust wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:45:56 PM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.
>>>>>
>>>>> Water ice at cryogenic temperatures is almost as hard and tough as granite.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, granite is not that hard!
>>>> Diamond coring drill goes through it like butter.
>>>> Done that, when through holes had be drilled into precision granite surface plate, because measuring instruments were mounted to it!
>>> Granite is hard enough that it can be used as aggregate in concrete and asphalt and
>>> used to build highway pavement that can carry thousands of large trucks per day.
>> Da!
>> Is asphalt hard?
>
> Asphalt concrete is hard.

Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html

Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.

I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<2chi6hhe0kr40594e2adirt0iq89g64k67@4ax.com>

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 13:33 UTC

On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 21:54:22 -0700 (PDT), StarDust <csoka01@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:45:56 PM UTC-7, Scott Kozel wrote:
>> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>> >
>> > Ice has considerable strength at cryogenic temperatures.
>> Water ice at cryogenic temperatures is almost as hard and tough as granite.
>
>Actually, granite is not that hard!
>Diamond coring drill goes through it like butter.
>Done that, when through holes had be drilled into precision granite surface plate, because measuring instruments were mounted to it!

"Hardness" is one aspect of material strength. Granite is very hard.
But that doesn't mean it's difficult to drill into. Some hard
materials are easy to work with, some softer ones are difficult.

I think ice is one of the easiest materials to drill into because it
doesn't do much damage to most conventional drill bit materials.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 02:39 UTC

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
>
> > Asphalt concrete is hard.
>
> Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
>
> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
>
> Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
> crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
> Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
>
> I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
> formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.

Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for
production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
to the job site.

60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 02:42 UTC

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 10:39:43 PM UTC-4, Scott Kozel wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
> >
> > > Asphalt concrete is hard.
> >
> > Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
> >
> > https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
> >
> > Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
> > crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
> > Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
> >
> > I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
> > formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.
> Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for

Correction
138 to 166 C

> production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
> to the job site.
>
> 60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 04:43 UTC

On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
<kozelsm@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
>>
>> > Asphalt concrete is hard.
>>
>> Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
>>
>> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
>>
>> Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
>> crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
>> Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
>>
>> I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
>> formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.
>
>Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for
>production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
>to the job site.
>
>60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.

Asphalt commonly gets well over 140F on hot, sunny days. Fresh asphalt
in places like Phoenix can reach 180F. It's a big part of the urban
heat island effect.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:50 UTC

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:43:56 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> >> On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
> >>
> >> > Asphalt concrete is hard.
> >>
> >> Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
> >>
> >> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
> >>
> >> Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
> >> crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
> >> Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
> >>
> >> I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
> >> formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.
> >
> >Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for
> >production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
> >to the job site.
> >
> >60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.
>
> Asphalt commonly gets well over 140F on hot, sunny days. Fresh asphalt
> in places like Phoenix can reach 180F. It's a big part of the urban
> heat island effect.

Well if the atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a
clear day, the radiant heat the Sun could boost the pavement temp over 140 F.

I live in an area that occasionally reaches 100 F, and I have not yet seen an
asphalt pavement liquify.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 20:29 UTC

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:50:06 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
<kozelsm@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:43:56 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
>> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>> >> On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Asphalt concrete is hard.
>> >>
>> >> Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
>> >>
>> >> Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
>> >> crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
>> >> Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
>> >>
>> >> I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
>> >> formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.
>> >
>> >Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for
>> >production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
>> >to the job site.
>> >
>> >60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.
>>
>> Asphalt commonly gets well over 140F on hot, sunny days. Fresh asphalt
>> in places like Phoenix can reach 180F. It's a big part of the urban
>> heat island effect.
>
>Well if the atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a
>clear day, the radiant heat the Sun could boost the pavement temp over 140 F.
>
>I live in an area that occasionally reaches 100 F, and I have not yet seen an
>asphalt pavement liquify.

When I lived in California, on hot days you could pick off blobs of
tar out of the asphalt and manipulate it like chewing gum.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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From: burynulP...@ppllaanneett.nnll (fred k. engels®)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 05:58:25 -0700
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 by: fred k. engels® - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:58 UTC

Prime Minister Justin Blackface has just tweeted his condolences
Three massive spy satellites Chicom launches expected in three days

So, How's that pretty picture astro photography horseshit® working out for
ya?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EoAHdwGBvU

"

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 04:13 UTC

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:29:33 PM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:50:06 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:43:56 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
> >> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> >> >> On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Asphalt concrete is hard.
> >> >>
> >> >> Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
> >> >>
> >> >> Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
> >> >> crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
> >> >> Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
> >> >>
> >> >> I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
> >> >> formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.
> >> >
> >> >Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for
> >> >production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
> >> >to the job site.
> >> >
> >> >60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.
> >>
> >> Asphalt commonly gets well over 140F on hot, sunny days. Fresh asphalt
> >> in places like Phoenix can reach 180F. It's a big part of the urban
> >> heat island effect.
> >
> >Well if the atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a
> >clear day, the radiant heat the Sun could boost the pavement temp over 140 F.
> >
> >I live in an area that occasionally reaches 100 F, and I have not yet seen an
> >asphalt pavement liquify.
>
> When I lived in California, on hot days you could pick off blobs of
> tar out of the asphalt and manipulate it like chewing gum.

You mean like atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a clear day?

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 13:22 UTC

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 21:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
<kozelsm@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:29:33 PM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:50:06 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
>> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:43:56 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
>> >> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>> >> >> On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Asphalt concrete is hard.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
>> >> >> crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
>> >> >> Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
>> >> >> formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.
>> >> >
>> >> >Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for
>> >> >production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
>> >> >to the job site.
>> >> >
>> >> >60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.
>> >>
>> >> Asphalt commonly gets well over 140F on hot, sunny days. Fresh asphalt
>> >> in places like Phoenix can reach 180F. It's a big part of the urban
>> >> heat island effect.
>> >
>> >Well if the atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a
>> >clear day, the radiant heat the Sun could boost the pavement temp over 140 F.
>> >
>> >I live in an area that occasionally reaches 100 F, and I have not yet seen an
>> >asphalt pavement liquify.
>>
>> When I lived in California, on hot days you could pick off blobs of
>> tar out of the asphalt and manipulate it like chewing gum.
>
>You mean like atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a clear day?

I doubt it was that hot. But over 100 F, and mid-day, for sure.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
Injection-Date: Sun, 01 May 2022 05:05:59 +0000
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 by: Scott Kozel - Sun, 1 May 2022 05:05 UTC

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 9:22:10 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 21:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:29:33 PM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> >> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:50:06 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
> >> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:43:56 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
> >> >> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> >> >> >> On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Asphalt concrete is hard.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
> >> >> >> crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
> >> >> >> Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
> >> >> >> formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for
> >> >> >production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
> >> >> >to the job site.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.
> >> >>
> >> >> Asphalt commonly gets well over 140F on hot, sunny days. Fresh asphalt
> >> >> in places like Phoenix can reach 180F. It's a big part of the urban
> >> >> heat island effect.
> >> >
> >> >Well if the atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a
> >> >clear day, the radiant heat the Sun could boost the pavement temp over 140 F.
> >> >
> >> >I live in an area that occasionally reaches 100 F, and I have not yet seen an
> >> >asphalt pavement liquify.
> >>
> >> When I lived in California, on hot days you could pick off blobs of
> >> tar out of the asphalt and manipulate it like chewing gum.
> >
> >You mean like atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a clear day?
>
> I doubt it was that hot. But over 100 F, and mid-day, for sure.

It has been up to 105 F here, and I haven't seen any liquified asphalt pavement yet.

Concrete pavement has been known to expand and blow out.

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