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tech / sci.astro.amateur / Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
+* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
|+- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
|`- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaNinapenda Jibini
`* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
 `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaStarDust
  +* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |+* Re: Drilling into the ice on Europafred k. engelsĀ®
  ||+* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |||`- Re: Drilling into the ice on Europapalsing
  ||`* Re: Drilling into the ice on Europapalsing
  || `- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  |`* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaStarDust
  | `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |  `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
  |   `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |    +- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |    `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  |     `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |      `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  |       +- Re: Drilling into the ice on Europafred k. engelsĀ®
  |       `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |        `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  |         `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |          +- Re: Drilling into the ice on Europakellehe...@gmail.com
  |          `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
  |           `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |            `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaMartin Brown
  |             `* Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaScott Kozel
  |              `- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson
  `- Re: Drilling into the ice on EuropaChris L Peterson

Pages:12
Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<dcd40237-180e-42e2-9306-49e44ebb5933n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: kelleher...@gmail.com (kellehe...@gmail.com)
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 by: kellehe...@gmail.com - Sun, 1 May 2022 08:48 UTC

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:06:00 AM UTC+1, Scott Kozel wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 9:22:10 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 21:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
> > <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:29:33 PM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:50:06 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
> > >> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:43:56 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
> > >> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
> > >> >> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> > >> >> >> On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> > Asphalt concrete is hard.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
> > >> >> >> crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
> > >> >> >> Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
> > >> >> >> formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for
> > >> >> >production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
> > >> >> >to the job site.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Asphalt commonly gets well over 140F on hot, sunny days. Fresh asphalt
> > >> >> in places like Phoenix can reach 180F. It's a big part of the urban
> > >> >> heat island effect.
> > >> >
> > >> >Well if the atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a
> > >> >clear day, the radiant heat the Sun could boost the pavement temp over 140 F.
> > >> >
> > >> >I live in an area that occasionally reaches 100 F, and I have not yet seen an
> > >> >asphalt pavement liquify.
> > >>
> > >> When I lived in California, on hot days you could pick off blobs of
> > >> tar out of the asphalt and manipulate it like chewing gum.
> > >
> > >You mean like atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a clear day?
> >
> > I doubt it was that hot. But over 100 F, and mid-day, for sure.
> It has been up to 105 F here, and I haven't seen any liquified asphalt pavement yet.
>
> Concrete pavement has been known to expand and blow out.

Different materials expand at different rates depending on how much radiation they absorb as the Earth turns daily to the Sun-

http://prairieecosystems.pbworks.com/f/1179343887/crerar%20temperature%20variation.jpg

It is unfortunate that, due to a misguided allegiance to a poor conclusion made centuries ago, some contributors to this newsgroup don't accept the planet turns once every 24 hours and a thousand times in a thousand 24 hour days. Research for all topics return to a stable foundation rather than coming to a dead stop once the adjustment is made.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<t4lkdj$1aur$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 10:37:53 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Sun, 1 May 2022 09:37 UTC

On 01/05/2022 06:05, Scott Kozel wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 9:22:10 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 21:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
>> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 4:29:33 PM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:50:06 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
>>>> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:43:56 AM UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
>>>>>> <koz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 4:20:56 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 27/04/2022 04:13, Scott Kozel wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Asphalt concrete is hard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Concrete is lot harder than Asphalt at STP in a Young's modulus sense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Concrete_or_Asphalt__4793.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Once the road surface gets to 60+C then asphalt is little different to
>>>>>>>> crushed gravel in wet tar and it tears apart under shear forces.
>>>>>>>> Happens sometimes even in the UK on the hottest sunny days.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I presume that tropical countries use a different higher melting point
>>>>>>>> formulation for their asphalt and/or cast concrete slab roads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Asphalt concrete mix designs are in the 280 - 330 F (536-636 C) range for
>>>>>>> production at the plant to create a molten material that can be transported
>>>>>>> to the job site.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 60 C is 140 F and that would be rare if ever that a pavement got that hot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Asphalt commonly gets well over 140F on hot, sunny days. Fresh asphalt
>>>>>> in places like Phoenix can reach 180F. It's a big part of the urban
>>>>>> heat island effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well if the atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a
>>>>> clear day, the radiant heat the Sun could boost the pavement temp over 140 F.
>>>>>
>>>>> I live in an area that occasionally reaches 100 F, and I have not yet seen an
>>>>> asphalt pavement liquify.
>>>>
>>>> When I lived in California, on hot days you could pick off blobs of
>>>> tar out of the asphalt and manipulate it like chewing gum.
>>>
>>> You mean like atmospheric temp is 115-120 F, and the Sun is at high elevation on a clear day?
>>
>> I doubt it was that hot. But over 100 F, and mid-day, for sure.
>
> It has been up to 105 F here, and I haven't seen any liquified asphalt pavement yet.

It doesn't liquify as such but it no longer has any shear strength and
is torn apart by HGVs and agricultural vehicles in the mid afternoon
when the air and road temperature is hottest. It doesn't help that the
silage and harvest periods coincide with the hottest weather.

Ordinary cars don't usually do much damage by comparison unless they
brake hard or turn abruptly.

Air temperature in the UK seldom gets above 30C but when it does older
tarmac roads can still get globs of molten tar on and soften badly. Last
year was particularly bad (as was 2018 when the rail lines buckled too).

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/roads/roads-melting-uk-heatwave/

There is a S facing hill near me that does it almost every year and it
has been resurfaced relatively recently so I don't believe the claims of
the CEO of the road surfaces association about bitumen fixing it.

The trains also fail under these circumstances as the rails buckle!

> Concrete pavement has been known to expand and blow out.

Never seen that in the UK. There are a few very old bypass/motorways of
that concrete slab construction dating from the 1950's. Very noisy to
drive on since each slab joint generates a sharp noise.

Concrete slab roads moving is more likely due to mining subsidence or
sink holes.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<ba75477f-44d4-46ef-a446-1677c7fb2b69n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Mon, 2 May 2022 04:08 UTC

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 5:37:59 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 01/05/2022 06:05, Scott Kozel wrote:
>
> > It has been up to 105 F here, and I haven't seen any liquified asphalt pavement yet.
>
> It doesn't liquify as such but it no longer has any shear strength and
> is torn apart by HGVs and agricultural vehicles in the mid afternoon
> when the air and road temperature is hottest. It doesn't help that the
> silage and harvest periods coincide with the hottest weather.
>
> Ordinary cars don't usually do much damage by comparison unless they
> brake hard or turn abruptly.
>
> Air temperature in the UK seldom gets above 30C but when it does older
> tarmac roads can still get globs of molten tar on and soften badly. Last
> year was particularly bad (as was 2018 when the rail lines buckled too).

87 F, not hot at all. Something must be wrong with the mix designs.
> > Concrete pavement has been known to expand and blow out.
>
> Never seen that in the UK. There are a few very old bypass/motorways of
> that concrete slab construction dating from the 1950's. Very noisy to
> drive on since each slab joint generates a sharp noise.

Pretty rare here but it has happened, usually on the older pavements (1970s,
1980s).

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

<t4o9f9$1ebl$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 10:49:28 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Mon, 2 May 2022 09:49 UTC

On 02/05/2022 05:08, Scott Kozel wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 5:37:59 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 01/05/2022 06:05, Scott Kozel wrote:
>>
>>> It has been up to 105 F here, and I haven't seen any liquified asphalt pavement yet.
>>
>> It doesn't liquify as such but it no longer has any shear strength and
>> is torn apart by HGVs and agricultural vehicles in the mid afternoon
>> when the air and road temperature is hottest. It doesn't help that the
>> silage and harvest periods coincide with the hottest weather.
>>
>> Ordinary cars don't usually do much damage by comparison unless they
>> brake hard or turn abruptly.
>>
>> Air temperature in the UK seldom gets above 30C but when it does older
>> tarmac roads can still get globs of molten tar on and soften badly. Last
>> year was particularly bad (as was 2018 when the rail lines buckled too).
>
> 87 F, not hot at all. Something must be wrong with the mix designs.

It isn't the air temperature that matters. It is the surface temperature
of the black tarmac road which can get too hot to touch and melts. It
really only takes a nice still day and a clear blue sky in the summer
months and after two or three days some tarmac roads will fail.

I don't doubt that some of it is due to global warming making summer
temperatures higher than they have ever been and taking older roads
beyond their design expectations for the older formulation.

Allegedly they have fixed it with more bitumen and less tar but the
roads near me are recently redone and still melt on hot summers days.
(we only have half a dozen or so really hot days in a year)

>>> Concrete pavement has been known to expand and blow out.
>>
>> Never seen that in the UK. There are a few very old bypass/motorways of
>> that concrete slab construction dating from the 1950's. Very noisy to
>> drive on since each slab joint generates a sharp noise.
>
> Pretty rare here but it has happened, usually on the older pavements (1970s,
> 1980s).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
From: koze...@yahoo.com (Scott Kozel)
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 by: Scott Kozel - Tue, 3 May 2022 02:39 UTC

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 5:49:32 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 02/05/2022 05:08, Scott Kozel wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 5:37:59 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
> >> On 01/05/2022 06:05, Scott Kozel wrote:
> >>
> >>> It has been up to 105 F here, and I haven't seen any liquified asphalt pavement yet.
> >>
> >> It doesn't liquify as such but it no longer has any shear strength and
> >> is torn apart by HGVs and agricultural vehicles in the mid afternoon
> >> when the air and road temperature is hottest. It doesn't help that the
> >> silage and harvest periods coincide with the hottest weather.
> >>
> >> Ordinary cars don't usually do much damage by comparison unless they
> >> brake hard or turn abruptly.
> >>
> >> Air temperature in the UK seldom gets above 30C but when it does older
> >> tarmac roads can still get globs of molten tar on and soften badly. Last
> >> year was particularly bad (as was 2018 when the rail lines buckled too).
> >
> > 87 F, not hot at all. Something must be wrong with the mix designs.
>
> It isn't the air temperature that matters. It is the surface temperature
> of the black tarmac road which can get too hot to touch and melts. It
> really only takes a nice still day and a clear blue sky in the summer
> months and after two or three days some tarmac roads will fail.
>
> I don't doubt that some of it is due to global warming making summer
> temperatures higher than they have ever been and taking older roads
> beyond their design expectations for the older formulation.

You mentioned 30 C (87F). Even over 100F here it does not do that. Surface
temp is a product of air temp and atmospheric clarity.

Something must be wrong with the mix designs.

Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Subject: Re: Drilling into the ice on Europa
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Tue, 3 May 2022 05:15 UTC

On Mon, 2 May 2022 19:39:39 -0700 (PDT), Scott Kozel
<kozelsm@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 5:49:32 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 02/05/2022 05:08, Scott Kozel wrote:
>> > On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 5:37:59 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
>> >> On 01/05/2022 06:05, Scott Kozel wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> It has been up to 105 F here, and I haven't seen any liquified asphalt pavement yet.
>> >>
>> >> It doesn't liquify as such but it no longer has any shear strength and
>> >> is torn apart by HGVs and agricultural vehicles in the mid afternoon
>> >> when the air and road temperature is hottest. It doesn't help that the
>> >> silage and harvest periods coincide with the hottest weather.
>> >>
>> >> Ordinary cars don't usually do much damage by comparison unless they
>> >> brake hard or turn abruptly.
>> >>
>> >> Air temperature in the UK seldom gets above 30C but when it does older
>> >> tarmac roads can still get globs of molten tar on and soften badly. Last
>> >> year was particularly bad (as was 2018 when the rail lines buckled too).
>> >
>> > 87 F, not hot at all. Something must be wrong with the mix designs.
>>
>> It isn't the air temperature that matters. It is the surface temperature
>> of the black tarmac road which can get too hot to touch and melts. It
>> really only takes a nice still day and a clear blue sky in the summer
>> months and after two or three days some tarmac roads will fail.
>>
>> I don't doubt that some of it is due to global warming making summer
>> temperatures higher than they have ever been and taking older roads
>> beyond their design expectations for the older formulation.
>
>You mentioned 30 C (87F). Even over 100F here it does not do that. Surface
>temp is a product of air temp and atmospheric clarity.

Surface temperature depends upon material properties, particularly
emissivity. Under a clear sky, radiative heating significantly
dominates over air temperature. Likewise for cooling. Around here, a
bucket of water left outside at night will have ice on top when the
air temperature never drops below 10 C. And black surfaces on the
right material can easily be tens of degrees above ambient air
temperature under the Sun.

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