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tech / sci.astro.amateur / Re: The Pleiades

SubjectAuthor
* The Pleiadeskellehe...@gmail.com
`* Re: The PleiadesMike Collins
 `* Re: The Pleiadeskellehe...@gmail.com
  `* Re: The Pleiadespalsing
   +- Re: The Pleiadeskellehe...@gmail.com
   `* Re: The PleiadesChris L Peterson
    +- Re: The Pleiadeskellehe...@gmail.com
    `* Re: The PleiadesQuadibloc
     `- Re: The Pleiadeskellehe...@gmail.com

1
The Pleiades

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Subject: The Pleiades
From: kelleher...@gmail.com (kellehe...@gmail.com)
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 by: kellehe...@gmail.com - Sat, 14 May 2022 07:01 UTC

The grouping of stars seen from a moving Earth is currently behind the Sun and comes into view within the range of the C3 camera which registers the Earth's orbital motion-

https://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Venus-Pleiades-April-4_2015S.jpg

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

It is one of those beautiful annual events that I have come to love as the most recognisable just as the heliacal rising of Sirius was to my astronomical ancestors. It should be the same for present society and maybe it will yet become that way.

This year it precedes the appearance of Mercury as that inner planet passes in front of the Sun. In a troubled world, satellite imaging and observations from Earth provide a safe haven for the human heart and mind.

Re: The Pleiades

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Subject: Re: The Pleiades
From: acridini...@gmail.com (Mike Collins)
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 by: Mike Collins - Sat, 14 May 2022 09:26 UTC

Nice to see you enjoying this magnification exercise.
On Saturday, 14 May 2022 at 08:01:09 UTC+1, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote:
> The grouping of stars seen from a moving Earth is currently behind the Sun and comes into view within the range of the C3 camera which registers the Earth's orbital motion-
>
> https://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Venus-Pleiades-April-4_2015S.jpg
>
> https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/
>
> It is one of those beautiful annual events that I have come to love as the most recognisable just as the heliacal rising of Sirius was to my astronomical ancestors. It should be the same for present society and maybe it will yet become that way.
>
> This year it precedes the appearance of Mercury as that inner planet passes in front of the Sun. In a troubled world, satellite imaging and observations from Earth provide a safe haven for the human heart and mind.

Re: The Pleiades

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Subject: Re: The Pleiades
From: kelleher...@gmail.com (kellehe...@gmail.com)
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 by: kellehe...@gmail.com - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:54 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:36 AM UTC+1, Mike Collins wrote:
> Nice to see you enjoying this magnification exercise.
> On Saturday, 14 May 2022 at 08:01:09 UTC+1, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The grouping of stars seen from a moving Earth is currently behind the Sun and comes into view within the range of the C3 camera which registers the Earth's orbital motion-
> >
> > https://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Venus-Pleiades-April-4_2015S.jpg
> >
> > https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/
> >
> > It is one of those beautiful annual events that I have come to love as the most recognisable just as the heliacal rising of Sirius was to my astronomical ancestors. It should be the same for present society and maybe it will yet become that way.
> >
> > This year it precedes the appearance of Mercury as that inner planet passes in front of the Sun. In a troubled world, satellite imaging and observations from Earth provide a safe haven for the human heart and mind.

There is magnification and identification as a lovely exercise (even RA/Dec identification), however, there is also magnification and interpretation as a far more satisfying exercise. I knew someone couldn't stay away after the unnecessary vandalism in the other thread, after all, this form of interpretation is new and nobody wants to be seen disparaging something valuable as it moves into the mainstream observing and research.

I credit you with being the first, aside from myself, to openly affirm the stars would move from left/evening appearance to right/morning appearance as a result of the Earth's orbital motion even before I found the C3 imaging.. I will even credit Savard for pointing out that we would see Venus and Mercury move around our parent star in much the same way Jupiter's satellites move around their parent planet-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcrBAuLBXag

The Americans in the newsgroup have yet to affirm anything and seemed determined to vandalise and insult rather than work to promote this type of astronomy on top of interpretation.

Re: The Pleiades

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Subject: Re: The Pleiades
From: pnals...@gmail.com (palsing)
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 by: palsing - Sun, 15 May 2022 01:28 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 6:54:45 AM UTC-7, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote:

> I credit you with being the first, aside from myself, to openly affirm the stars would move from left/evening appearance to right/morning appearance as a result of the Earth's orbital motion...

Gerald, don't know why you don't understand that the motions that you are describing have been well understood for centuries! Neither one of you fellows are the 'first' to affirm this patently obvious fact. This has been "old news" for a very, very long time... but if it is a recent 'discovery' for you, well, congratulations!

Re: The Pleiades

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Subject: Re: The Pleiades
From: kelleher...@gmail.com (kellehe...@gmail.com)
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 by: kellehe...@gmail.com - Sun, 15 May 2022 06:14 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 2:28:22 AM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 6:54:45 AM UTC-7, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I credit you with being the first, aside from myself, to openly affirm the stars would move from left/evening appearance to right/morning appearance as a result of the Earth's orbital motion...
>
> Gerald, don't know why you don't understand that the motions that you are describing have been well understood for centuries! Neither one of you fellows are the 'first' to affirm this patently obvious fact. This has been "old news" for a very, very long time... but if it is a recent 'discovery' for you, well, congratulations!

I will give you credit for not interpreting the difference between Venus as an evening appearance or to the left of the Sun seen from our slower moving planet and when it is to the right of the Sun as a morning appearance as it is presently. Mercury is coming within range of the C3 camera soon so you have a chance to redeem yourself by describing what the slower moving planets are brightest at the centre of retrogrades while the faster moving Venus and Mercury are darkest among many other topics.

The community of solar system researchers is a really old one so it is always an honour to add to an understanding of our motion and position in the solar system. The first Sun-centred researchers didn't have satellites to discern the difference between planets moving faster than the Earth and slower than the Earth and had to rely on the stationary field of background stars hence the perception of direct/retrograde motions fell short when it comes to Venus and Mercury-

" Now what is said here of Jupiter is to be understood of Saturn and Mars also. In Saturn these retrogressions are somewhat more frequent than in Jupiter, because its motion is slower than Jupiter's, so that the Earth overtakes it in a shorter time. In Mars they are rarer, its motion being faster than that of Jupiter, so that the Earth spends more time in catching up with it. Next, as to Venus and Mercury, whose circles are included within that of the Earth, stoppings and retrograde motions appear in them also, due not to any motion that really exists in them, but to the annual motion of the Earth. This is acutely demonstrated by Copernicus ..." Galileo

You don't insult me Paul, you insult the heritage of astronomy and the community which stretches back to remote antiquity.

I am a Christian, perhaps not the denominational kind as it presently exists, so it is not possible for me to take to myself something that does not belong to me as I treat the information as sharing rather than trying to convince people, at least up to a point. It is why Galileo wrote; “You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him find it within himself..”

Insulting your own spirit or the ability to be inspired and inspiring is like cursing your own life and therefore a living death.

Re: The Pleiades

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From: clp...@alumni.caltech.edu (Chris L Peterson)
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Subject: Re: The Pleiades
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 by: Chris L Peterson - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:12 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 18:28:20 -0700 (PDT), palsing <pnalsing@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 6:54:45 AM UTC-7, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I credit you with being the first, aside from myself, to openly affirm the stars would move from left/evening appearance to right/morning appearance as a result of the Earth's orbital motion...
>
>Gerald, don't know why you don't understand that the motions that you are describing have been well understood for centuries! Neither one of you fellows are the 'first' to affirm this patently obvious fact. This has been "old news" for a very, very long time... but if it is a recent 'discovery' for you, well, congratulations!

The motions have been well described for millennia. And well
understood for centuries. By everyone except Gerald, who still doesn't
understand them.

Re: The Pleiades

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Subject: Re: The Pleiades
From: kelleher...@gmail.com (kellehe...@gmail.com)
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 by: kellehe...@gmail.com - Sun, 15 May 2022 16:51 UTC

Contemporary satellite observations, free from daily rotational influences with the ability to see planets as they actually exist within the framework of a Sun-centred system, obviate the need to appeal to the Ptolemaic framework which the first Sun-centred researchers were obligated to-

". . . the ancient hypotheses clearly fail to account for certain important matters. For example, they do not comprehend the causes of the numbers, extents and durations of the retrogradations and of their agreeing so well with the position and mean motion of the sun. Copernicus alone gives an explanation to those things that provoke astonishment among other astronomers, thus destroying the source of astonishment, which lies in the ignorance of the causes." 1596, Mysterium Cosmographicum

There are many observable traits, however, there is no stationary field of background stars by which to gauge the motions of Venus and Mercury as they run circuits around our parent star just as the moons of Jupiter run circuits around their parent planet-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcrBAuLBXag

The appearance of the Pleiades is the 21st century version of Sirius as a dawn appearance for our ancestors as they are so recognisable.

Priority issues are silly, satellites are new and I have little regard for who is the first to promote the observations and conclusions - too busy looking for new angles and sharing information for others to join in. I would make the concession that I am a Christian as the more I look, the more I love-

" I answer, that a man should so stand free, being quit of himself, that is, of his I, and Me, and Self, and Mine, and the like, that in all things, he should no more seek or regard himself, than if he did not exist, and should take as little account of himself as if he were not, and another had done all his works." Theologia Germanica

Re: The Pleiades

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Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 18:08:14 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: The Pleiades
From: jsav...@ecn.ab.ca (Quadibloc)
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 by: Quadibloc - Mon, 16 May 2022 01:08 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 7:12:06 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

> The motions have been well described for millennia. And well
> understood for centuries. By everyone except Gerald, who still doesn't
> understand them.

He understands... parts of them... well enough. But he refuses to accept that
what was observed by Kepler ended up being explained by Newton, who built
on methods pioneered by Galileo.

To me, at least, this seems like an ideological blind spot, _not_ an inability
to understand Galileo or Copernicus or Kepler, with whom, if anything, he
seems quite conversant.

John Savard

Re: The Pleiades

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=8161&group=sci.astro.amateur#8161

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Subject: Re: The Pleiades
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 by: kellehe...@gmail.com - Tue, 17 May 2022 07:38 UTC

When Mercury travels behind the Sun from right to left, it announces its arrival before it comes with full range of the C3 camera because its light hemisphere faces us while it takes a while to discern its motion as it passes between the Earth and central Sun as mostly its dark hemisphere faces us as it does presently-

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

Venus is much brighter when it passes between the Earth and the Sun because it is much closer to our orbit, whereas Mercury and Venus have roughly the same brightness as they move behind the Sun as Venus is further away from the Earth than the closer Mercury at those positions relative to the Earth in a Sun-centred system. Anyone could express these new perspectives made possible by a satellite tracking with the Earth around the Sun and complimenting the phase changes noted by Galileo-

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/SWI/UV%20montage%20flat.jpg

"But the telescope plainly shows us its horns to be as bounded and distinct as those of the moon, and they are seen to belong to a very large circle, in a ratio almost forty times as great as the same disc when it is beyond the sun, toward the end of its morning appearances.

SAGR. Oh, Nicholas Copernicus, what a pleasure it would have been for you to see this part of your system confirmed by so clear an experiment!

SALV. Yes, but how much less would his sublime intellect be celebrated among the learned! For as I said before, we may see that with reason as his guide he resolutely continued to affirm what sensible experience seemed to contradict. I cannot get over my amazement that he was constantly willing to persist in saying that Venus might go around the sun and be more than six times as far from us at one time than at other times as at another, and still look always equal, when it should have appeared forty times larger." Galileo

If people insist that perspectives from a satellite are not new then let them, there is so much to discuss using the limited life of the orbiting SOHO observatory that observers should not waste this time when this new type of observing opens up a whole new area of interpretation.

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