Hi

I am working on a project, just for my own business

I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away

Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y functions

I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not need to be precise

Any hints for the cheapest system?

Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?

I need to be able to buy it for my own production

Regards

Klaus

--
Klaus

On 18/12/2021 16:53, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am working on a project, just for my own business
>
> I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other
> visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>
> Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2
> steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y functions

Traditional old school way to do it would be two axis mirror galvos and
analogue signals to determine the position of the laser dot.

> I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not
> need to be precise
>
> Any hints for the cheapest system?

There are some toy laser projectors that can put a diffraction pattern
very like a cross onto a target and some fairly bright white light LED
torches that can focus the LED die onto a target at about that range. If
you can make a mask for one of those then you can nail it.

This is a rather pretty colourful example of the technique using Venus
as the light source and a fine fabric as the diffraction mesh.

https://www.atoptics.co.uk/fz956.htm

> Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap  projector?
>
> I need to be able to buy it for my own production

So you are intending to make these to sell as opposed to a one off?

My money would be to project the cross pattern with Fourier optics so
there are no moving parts and it is very cheap to make.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

18.12.21 17:53, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
>Hi
>
>I am working on a project, just for my own business
>
>I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>
>Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y functions
>
>I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not need to be precise
>
>Any hints for the cheapest system?
>
>Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?
>
>I need to be able to buy it for my own production
>

I can get cheap servos:

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html

But how to align mirrors to translate those servos to xy plane

--
Klaus

On Saturday, 18 December 2021 at 18:22:41 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 18/12/2021 16:53, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > I am working on a project, just for my own business
> >
> > I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other
> > visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
> >
> > Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2
> > steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y functions
> Traditional old school way to do it would be two axis mirror galvos and
> analogue signals to determine the position of the laser dot.
> > I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not
> > need to be precise
> >
> > Any hints for the cheapest system?
> There are some toy laser projectors that can put a diffraction pattern
> very like a cross onto a target and some fairly bright white light LED
> torches that can focus the LED die onto a target at about that range. If
> you can make a mask for one of those then you can nail it.
>
> This is a rather pretty colourful example of the technique using Venus
> as the light source and a fine fabric as the diffraction mesh.
>
> https://www.atoptics.co.uk/fz956.htm
Looks interesting

> > Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?
> >
> > I need to be able to buy it for my own production
> So you are intending to make these to sell as opposed to a one off?
Yes. If my idea pans out I will be selling a, lot of them
>
> My money would be to project the cross pattern with Fourier optics so
> there are no moving parts and it is very cheap to make.
I have not heard about Fourier optics before. I need a max deflection of maybe 45 degrees. So I am guessing it would not be usable

On 18/12/2021 17:53, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> On Saturday, 18 December 2021 at 18:22:41 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 18/12/2021 16:53, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I am working on a project, just for my own business
>>>
>>> I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other
>>> visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>>
>> My money would be to project the cross pattern with Fourier optics so
>> there are no moving parts and it is very cheap to make.

> I have not heard about Fourier optics before. I need a max deflection of maybe 45 degrees. So I am guessing it would not be usable

My next suggestion then would be two laser light sources projecting a
point of light and a cylinder lens to spread it out along a line.

To try it out crudely just find some clear Perspex or glass rod.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On a sunny day (Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:53:04 +0100) it happened Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote in <tscheppe.9r0h3ieyfga9@nntp.aioe.org>:

>Hi
>
>I am working on a project, just for my own business
>
>I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>
>Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y
>functions
>
>I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not need to be precise
>
>Any hints for the cheapest system?
>
>Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?
>
>I need to be able to buy it for my own production

Use RC servos and 1 PIC micro
red laser diodes are cheap on ebay.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/camc_pic/

Or you could get one of those xy movable video security cameras and put a laser diode on it.
Wrote a controller for mine long time ago.
Then you have the camera pointing at the target all the time.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324772560866

On a sunny day (Sat, 18 Dec 2021 18:37:49 +0100) it happened Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote in <tscheppe.1mvsh2cmn565z@nntp.aioe.org>:

>18.12.21 17:53, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
>>Hi
>>
>>I am working on a project, just for my own business
>>
>>I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>>
>>Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y
>>functions
>>
>>I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not need to be precise
>>
>>Any hints for the cheapest system?
>>
>>Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?
>>
>>I need to be able to buy it for my own production
>>
>
>I can get cheap servos:
>
>https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
>
>But how to align mirrors to translate those servos to xy plane

5 cheap red laser diodes make a cross:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192413550626

I bought ten for what was it? 2$58 in 2914, so now they ask 6$89...

On 18/12/2021 5:37 pm, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> 18.12.21 17:53, Klaus Kragelund   wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I am working on a project, just for my own business
>>
>> I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other
>> visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>>
>> Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2
>> steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y functions
>>
>> I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not
>> need to be precise
>>
>> Any hints for the cheapest system?
>>
>> Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap  projector?
>>
>> I need to be able to buy it for my own production
>>
>
> I can get cheap servos:
>
> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
>
> But how to align mirrors to translate those servos to xy plane
>
>
> --
> Klaus

Can a radio control servo move fast enough to fool the eye?

piglet

On 12/18/2021 9:53 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> I am working on a project, just for my own business
>
> I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible
> marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away

To be clear, you are not intending on actually *marking* the target
but, rather, *indicating* a position on it (?)

> Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a
> mechanical arrangement to provide x and y functions

Slow.

Is the target in motion? How "static" must the indication be?

> I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not need to
> be precise

I don't think I understand what this adds. Or, are you claiming there
are other reference data on the target that could be visually
identified (with the camera) and used to adjust the position of
your laser indication?

> Any hints for the cheapest system?

If you have a general idea where the target will reside ("constrained
location"), a vibrating mirror with a (physical) gating aperture
(to ensure the laser never is active in directions that could
cause injury/damage). Gate the beam on/off based on where the
mirror happens to be, presently. (let it remain off when the
reflection wouldn't be where you wanted it to be)

You can mock up a single DoF deflector with a mirror mounted
on a speaker (driving the speaker to deflect the beam)

> Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?
>
> I need to be able to buy it for my own production

On 2021-12-18, Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am working on a project, just for my own business
>
> I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>
> Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y functions

laser pointer with a holographic slide that creates an "X"
I recall buying something like this for under $10 retail.

Alternatively laser, beam splitter and two cylindrical lenses.
or if for some reason you can't get a cheap beam splitter two lasers
and two cylindrical lenses (or cylindrical reflectors if you can't get
lenses, warp a small mirror, or wrap aluminised mylar on a drink can etc.)

This will probably work better than the cheap hologram, as the
cheap ones tend to bleed a lot of the original beam, thus producing
a bright spot on the main axis. (these are dollar-store trinkets,
I have not tried a professional quality hologram)

Or back towards your original plan two lasers and two mirror
galvanometers connected to an AC supply (5V?) add a potentiometer
to control the size of the "X"

--
Jasen.

On Saturday, 18 December 2021 at 19:45:24 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:53:04 +0100) it happened Klaus Kragelund
> <klau...@hotmail.com> wrote in <tscheppe.9...@nntp.aioe.org>:
> >Hi
> >
> >I am working on a project, just for my own business
> >
> >I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
> >
> >Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y
> >functions
> >
> >I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not need to be precise
> >
> >Any hints for the cheapest system?
> >
> >Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?
> >
> >I need to be able to buy it for my own production
> Use RC servos and 1 PIC micro
> red laser diodes are cheap on ebay.
> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/camc_pic/
>
> Or you could get one of those xy movable video security cameras and put a laser diode on it.
> Wrote a controller for mine long time ago.
> Then you have the camera pointing at the target all the time.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/324772560866
That is actually a very nice idea. Kills two birds with one stone :-)

I then need to find a camera with an open SW/library. How did you go about finding the documentation for controlling them?

On Saturday, 18 December 2021 at 21:58:49 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:
> On 12/18/2021 9:53 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> > I am working on a project, just for my own business
> >
> > I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible
> > marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
> To be clear, you are not intending on actually *marking* the target
> but, rather, *indicating* a position on it (?)
> > Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a
> > mechanical arrangement to provide x and y functions
> Slow.
>
> Is the target in motion? How "static" must the indication be?

The target is fixed, so static indication. However, the marking/indication is for people to find the box, so it can have wobble to make easier recognition

> > I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not need to
> > be precise
> I don't think I understand what this adds. Or, are you claiming there
> are other reference data on the target that could be visually
> identified (with the camera) and used to adjust the position of
> your laser indication?

I could close the loop. I use the camera to find the box, and then the laser to point to it, so the user can pick it

> > Any hints for the cheapest system?
> If you have a general idea where the target will reside ("constrained
> location"), a vibrating mirror with a (physical) gating aperture
> (to ensure the laser never is active in directions that could
> cause injury/damage). Gate the beam on/off based on where the
> mirror happens to be, presently. (let it remain off when the
> reflection wouldn't be where you wanted it to be)
That could work, but the intensity would be quite low
>
> You can mock up a single DoF deflector with a mirror mounted
> on a speaker (driving the speaker to deflect the beam)
> > Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?
> >
> > I need to be able to buy it for my own production

Klaus Kragelund wrote:
===================
>
> I can get cheap servos:
>
> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html

** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your idea.
Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.

...... Phil

lørdag den 18. december 2021 kl. 17.53.09 UTC+1 skrev Klaus Kragelund:
> Hi
>
> I am working on a project, just for my own business
>
> I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>
> Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y functions
>
> I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not need to be precise
>
> Any hints for the cheapest system?
>
> Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?
>
> I need to be able to buy it for my own production
>
> Regards
>
> Klaus

https://arduinotech.dk/shop/pan-og-tilt-mount/
https://arduinotech.dk/shop/laser-red-line-cross-650nm-5mw-5v/

On Sunday, 19 December 2021 at 01:21:48 UTC+1, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
> Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> ===================
> >
> > I can get cheap servos:
> >
> > https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
> ** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your idea.
> Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
> The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.
>
I actually found a video of exactly what I want. With 2 servos, and quite fast

He cleverly attaches the two bodies of the servo:

https://youtu.be/Ie09TwoI2J0

On Sunday, 19 December 2021 at 01:29:35 UTC+1, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> On Sunday, 19 December 2021 at 01:21:48 UTC+1, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> > ===================
> > >
> > > I can get cheap servos:
> > >
> > > https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
> > ** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your idea.
> > Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
> > The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.
> >
> I actually found a video of exactly what I want. With 2 servos, and quite fast
>
> He cleverly attaches the two bodies of the servo:
>
> https://youtu.be/Ie09TwoI2J0

Another one here, with 2 small mirrors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUpBPKh6kR8

klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
==================
>
> >
> > > I can get cheap servos:
> > >
> > > https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
> > ** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your idea.
> > Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
> > The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.
> >
> I actually found a video of exactly what I want. With 2 servos, and quite fast
>

** Really ?

Why the fuck did you FAIL to mention the laser generated pattern could be NON VISIBLE visible to the eye ??

...... Phil

On Sunday, 19 December 2021 at 01:46:58 UTC+1, palli...@gmail.com wrote:
> klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
> ==================
> >
> > >
> > > > I can get cheap servos:
> > > >
> > > > https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
> > > ** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your idea.
> > > Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
> > > The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.
> > >
> > I actually found a video of exactly what I want. With 2 servos, and quite fast
> >
> ** Really ?
>
> Why the fuck did you FAIL to mention the laser generated pattern could be NON VISIBLE visible to the eye ??
>

I don't get what you mean about non visible. It's visible in the video?

klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
==================
> >
> > > >
> > > > > I can get cheap servos:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
> > > > ** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your idea.
>>>>
> > > > Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
> > > > The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.
> > > >
> > > I actually found a video of exactly what I want. With 2 servos, and quite fast
> > >
> > ** Really ?
> >
> > Why the fuck did you FAIL to mention the laser generated pattern could be NON VISIBLE visible to the eye ??
> >
> I don't get what you mean about non visible. It's visible in the video?
>

** It's a fucking, slow moving dot - imbecile !

" a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible marking "

Does not compute, captain.

...... Phil

Martin Brown wrote:
> On 18/12/2021 17:53, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
>> On Saturday, 18 December 2021 at 18:22:41 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
>>> On 18/12/2021 16:53, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> I am working on a project, just for my own business
>>>>
>>>> I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other
>>>> visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>>>
>>> My money would be to project the cross pattern with Fourier optics so
>>> there are no moving parts and it is very cheap to make.
>
>> I have not heard about Fourier optics before. I need a max deflection
>> of maybe 45 degrees. So I am guessing it would not be usable
>
> My next suggestion then would be two laser light sources projecting a
> point of light and a cylinder lens to spread it out along a line.
>
> To try it out crudely just find some clear Perspex or glass rod.
>

You can buy holographic reticles that do that. A laser sight for an
airsoft gun gives you the laser pointer as well.

(Disclaimer--I've used reticles like that, but have never used a laser
sight, so I don't know how suitable it is for the purpose.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in
news:20ab8ec1-3987-4557-829a-018c6c9ece3fn@googlegroups.com:

> Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> ===================
>>
>> I can get cheap servos:
>>
>> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
>
>
> ** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your
> idea.
> Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
> The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.
>
>
> ..... Phil
>
>
>

There are swivel mounted mirrors out there with a coil already on
them which can be modulated to hard point or oscillate the mirror
angle.

I used to put 'music' up on the ceiling with my HeNe laser tube, and
two such mirrors.

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in
news:2821da94-f847-49fe-ba2e-99289920d4f5n@googlegroups.com:

> klaus.k...@gmail.com wrote:
> ==================
>>
>> >
>> > > I can get cheap servos:
>> > >
>> > > https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
>> > ** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your
>> > idea. Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
>> > The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.
>> >
>> I actually found a video of exactly what I want. With 2 servos,
>> and quite fast
>>
>
> ** Really ?
>
> Why the fuck did you FAIL to mention the laser generated pattern
> could be NON VISIBLE visible to the eye ??
>
>
>
> ..... Phil
>

You sure do mumble a lot. Meaningless shit too.

On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 4:58:02 PM UTC+11, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> Phil Allison <palli...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:20ab8ec1-3987-4557...@googlegroups.com:
> > Klaus Kragelund wrote:
> > ===================
> >>
> >> I can get cheap servos:
> >>
> >> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
> >
> >
> > ** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your
> > idea.
> > Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
> > The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.
> >
> >
> There are swivel mounted mirrors out there with a coil already on
> them which can be modulated to hard point or oscillate the mirror
> angle.
>
> I used to put 'music' up on the ceiling with my HeNe laser tube, and
> two such mirrors.

** Left and Right channels into X and Y axes ??

Did that on my home brew 5 tube 3 inch scope at age 17.

...... Phil

DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
============================
>>
> >> >
> >> > > I can get cheap servos:
> >> > >
> >> > > https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000903254039.html
> >> > ** RC servos cannot reverse direction near fast enough for your
> >> > idea. Small mirrors mounted on a speaker cone are far better.
> >> > The speakers could be driven with low voltage 60Hz.
> >> >
> >> I actually found a video of exactly what I want. With 2 servos,
> >> and quite fast
> >>
> >
> > ** Really ?
> >
> > Why the fuck did you FAIL to mention the laser generated pattern
> > could be NON VISIBLE visible to the eye ??
> >

> >
> You sure do mumble a lot. Meaningless shit too.

** Try reading the follow up post - you dumb fuckhead.

On a sunny day (Sat, 18 Dec 2021 16:11:29 -0800 (PST)) it happened Klaus
Kragelund <klaus.kragelund@gmail.com> wrote in
<97621678-c1ba-4e2a-817e-762f475bf08cn@googlegroups.com>:

>On Saturday, 18 December 2021 at 19:45:24 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:53:04 +0100) it happened Klaus Kragelund
>> <klau...@hotmail.com> wrote in <tscheppe.9...@nntp.aioe.org>:
>> >Hi
>> >
>> >I am working on a project, just for my own business
>> >
>> >I need a laser marking system, that can show a cross hair or other visible marking on a cardboard box up to 4 meters away
>> >
>> >Initial thought would be class 1 laser (no approvals?) and then 2 steppers in a mechanical arrangement to provide x and y
>> >functions
>> >
>> >I can add a USB camera to home in the laser, so the mechanism does not need to be precise
>> >
>> >Any hints for the cheapest system?
>> >
>> >Maybe using the optical drive for a cheap projector?
>> >
>> >I need to be able to buy it for my own production
>> Use RC servos and 1 PIC micro
>> red laser diodes are cheap on ebay.
>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/camc_pic/
>>
>> Or you could get one of those xy movable video security cameras and put a laser diode on it.
>> Wrote a controller for mine long time ago.
>> Then you have the camera pointing at the target all the time.
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/324772560866
>That is actually a very nice idea. Kills two birds with one stone :-)
>
>I then need to find a camera with an open SW/library. How did you go about finding the documentation for controlling them?

There is some history to that, I wrote soft for my first IP camera:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/mcamip/index.html

The way I hacked that is by looking with 'snort' (monitors IP traffic) at what the web browser with their software did send to it....
They, D-Link, were a bit upset when I reported the security hack/ leak.
Anyways when I bought that Chinese x,y cam I added support it.
Later I added motion control, wrote a program called 'xipcc'
http://panteltje.com/pub/xipcc_setup.gif
that can move the camera left right up down.
That Linux xipcc code is not on my site, but you can have it if you want, is basically open-source,
you could modify it to move the camera auomaticaly, for me it was just a quick hack so I could point the thing.

Let me know if you need the code, then I will make a .tgz and put it on my site, is all Linux C though.