On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 3:42:55 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com> writes:
>
> > Radey Shouman <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>> On 6/24/2023 4:25 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 6/23/2023 4:53 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There are a lot of people who are afraid of riding in the dark, no
> >>>>>>>> matter what headlights are available.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We live in a very, very fearful society, as evidenced by post here.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I grew up in the countryside beyond rural ie off the road network and sort
> >>>>>>> of place can’t get takeaways too or even taxis! So I’m not worried about
> >>>>>>> the dark.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm not convinced the fear of the dark is explained just by where one
> >>>>>> has grown up. I grew up in city and suburbs, so total darkness was never
> >>>>>> really available. But not only am I not afraid of the dark, I actually
> >>>>>> bemoan its passing. https://www.darksky.org/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But back to point does depend where and who one is, for example walking
> >>>>>>> home via the woods late night around my folks place the chance of meeting
> >>>>>>> someone is fairly unlikely let alone any personal risk, compared to say one
> >>>>>>> of the town centres for example on my commute is fairly iffy subway not
> >>>>>>> realistic way around it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know one of my colleagues half my size and woman will not go through it
> >>>>>>> as it’s dark and dingy and has occasionally some folks sleeping in it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I’m not viewed as threat but it rightly makes my colleague anxious.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've read quite a bit about the failure of the extensive bike trails to
> >>>>>> attract significant use in places like Milton Keynes and Stephenage.
> >>>>>> Those towns were designed so people could easily get anywhere by
> >>>>>> separate paths, no cars required. To eliminate car-bike conflicts as
> >>>>>> much as possible, there are underpasses on the bike paths. But at least
> >>>>>> some people complain that those spots make them feel insecure, so that's
> >>>>>> been listed as a reason for the mode share failure.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I though it was more the wandering nature of the bike trails, plus it was
> >>>>> so easy to use a car that folks took the easier option?
> >>>>
> >>>> That's been mentioned too, of course. Like most things, there are
> >>>> probably multiple contributing factors.
> >>>>
> >>>> I remember the first time we visited England, back in 1976. We attended
> >>>> an evening concert in some small city (maybe Salisbury?) and I was
> >>>> pleasantly surprised to see lots of pedestrians walking about in the
> >>>> dark of night after the concert ended. Then and now, that would be rare
> >>>> in most places in the U.S. Here, I think more people are afraid of the
> >>>> dark.
> >>>>
> >>> Having a quick read that is rather on point, ie that these places where
> >>> designed at peak car point in time, and the cycleway where essentially
> >>> upgrades to footpaths planned.
> >>>
> >>> Ie the town wasn’t designed with cycling in mind but cars and hence car
> >>> transportation was very easy so most did.
> >>>
> >>> America is certainly more famous for areas you can’t walk plus has laws
> >>> that prohibit? Where as uk and other places if one wants to can ride/walk
> >>> down most roads only motorways and few specific roads are motor vehicles
> >>> only.
> >>
> >> I can't think of any public areas in the US where walking is actually
> >> prohibited, save limited access highways.
> >>
> >
> > I suspect it’s more crossing the road ie even if the law is ignored or
> > decriminalised ie crossing where there isn’t a official crossing point.
> >
> > Which just isn’t a uk or even Europe thing, hence the occasional tourist
> > that gets a ticket for crossing a road and so on.
> >
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6251431.stm
> >
> > Francis Cade (youtuber) cycled across America last year with a friend in a
> > hand cycle, and due I’m sure to the types of areas they stopped ie cheap
> > hotels etc, getting across the road to get food was a constant theme!
> Ah, I see. Although crossing at unauthorized points of a road may be
> unlawful almost everywhere in the US, I would be quite surprised to be
> ticketed, much less wrestled to the ground, for doing so. I guess some
> jurisdictions are unduly aggressive that way.
>
> On the other hand I wouldn't be too surprised to be run over by a
> careless motorist even in a designated crosswalk.
>
> --

More surprising - the largest case they could possibly hold against a motorist even at that is manslaughter. Even with undeniable proof that it was done on purpose. My 45 mile ride yesterday had some VERY polite drivers but also some people driving twice the already too high speed limit without a cop in sight. I was repairing a flat out in front of the police station and the speed cars were driving at one time would have caused multiple police chases.

On 6/26/2023 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/26/2023 8:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 6/25/2023 10:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 6/25/2023 6:42 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ah, I see. Although crossing at unauthorized points of a
>>>> road may be
>>>> unlawful almost everywhere in the US, I would be quite
>>>> surprised to be
>>>> ticketed, much less wrestled to the ground, for doing so.
>>>> I guess some
>>>> jurisdictions are unduly aggressive that way.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand I wouldn't be too surprised to be run
>>>> over by a
>>>> careless motorist even in a designated crosswalk.
>>>
>>> We were with friends in their car in Charlotte, NC. Those
>>> friends tend to be very safety minded. (The guy was an OSHA
>>> inspector.)
>>>
>>> At a rather complex intersection, he commented
>>> disapprovingly about a woman who crossed not at an
>>> intersection, but maybe 100 feet away from it.
>>>
>>> I pointed out that had she crossed at the intersection,
>>> she'd be in the path of turning drivers who may not notice
>>> her. (I know a person who was hit by a car that way while
>>> crossing with the light in a crosswalk.) The woman in
>>> question was crossing at a spot where no turns were
>>> possible, and where there was a small concrete center island
>>> useful as a pedestrian refuge.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The mother of one of our former RBT contributors was run
>> over by a city bus in exactly that way. She had the light
>> and also a broken leg.
>
> It's not clear to me: Was she crossing in the crosswalk, or
> away from it as this woman did?
>

She was, unlike your example, following The Official
Directions.

She crossed at a crosswalk after waiting for the pedestrian
walk light and was hit by the same left-turning bus driver
who later killed a woman in the same manner at the same
intersection.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 20:18:33 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 18:42:52 -0400, Radey Shouman
>> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Ah, I see. Although crossing at unauthorized points of a road may be
>>>unlawful almost everywhere in the US,
>>
>> No, it's only in the cities.
>
>I don't think it's true in most US cities. It's certainly not true in Boston.

It varies by state. As of Jan 1, 2023, jaywalking between traffic
siganls or outside of designated crosswalks is still illegal in
California, but you can't get cited or fined for jaywalking:

"CHAPTER 5. Pedestrians’ Rights and Duties"
<https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=21955.&lawCode=VEH>

(a) Between adjacent intersections controlled by traffic control
signal devices or by police officers, pedestrians shall not cross the
roadway at any place except in a crosswalk.

(b) (1) A peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with
Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 of the Penal Code, shall not stop a
pedestrian for a violation of subdivision (a) unless a reasonably
careful person would realize there is an immediate danger of a
collision with a moving vehicle or other device moving exclusively by
human power.

"Jaywalking is now legal, but Californians still need to be cautious"
<https://www.pacbiztimes.com/2023/02/10/jaywalking-is-now-legal-but-californians-still-need-to-be-cautious/>

The "Freedom to Walk Act," (AB 2147) signed by Gov. Gavin Newsom in
September, reverses one of the strictest jaywalking laws in the
country. For decades, pedestrians crossing against the light or
outside of a designated crosswalk (the definition of jaywalking) could
be stopped by a traffic officer and issued a fine of up to $250. Now,
officers cannot stop or fine people for jaywalking, unless a
"reasonably careful person" would realize there is an immediate chance
of a collision with a moving vehicle.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 9:50:42 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/26/2023 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 6/26/2023 8:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 6/25/2023 10:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 6/25/2023 6:42 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Ah, I see. Although crossing at unauthorized points of a
> >>>> road may be
> >>>> unlawful almost everywhere in the US, I would be quite
> >>>> surprised to be
> >>>> ticketed, much less wrestled to the ground, for doing so.
> >>>> I guess some
> >>>> jurisdictions are unduly aggressive that way.
> >>>>
> >>>> On the other hand I wouldn't be too surprised to be run
> >>>> over by a
> >>>> careless motorist even in a designated crosswalk.
> >>>
> >>> We were with friends in their car in Charlotte, NC. Those
> >>> friends tend to be very safety minded. (The guy was an OSHA
> >>> inspector.)
> >>>
> >>> At a rather complex intersection, he commented
> >>> disapprovingly about a woman who crossed not at an
> >>> intersection, but maybe 100 feet away from it.
> >>>
> >>> I pointed out that had she crossed at the intersection,
> >>> she'd be in the path of turning drivers who may not notice
> >>> her. (I know a person who was hit by a car that way while
> >>> crossing with the light in a crosswalk.) The woman in
> >>> question was crossing at a spot where no turns were
> >>> possible, and where there was a small concrete center island
> >>> useful as a pedestrian refuge.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> The mother of one of our former RBT contributors was run
> >> over by a city bus in exactly that way. She had the light
> >> and also a broken leg.
> >
> > It's not clear to me: Was she crossing in the crosswalk, or
> > away from it as this woman did?
> >
> She was, unlike your example, following The Official
> Directions.
>
> She crossed at a crosswalk after waiting for the pedestrian
> walk light and was hit by the same left-turning bus driver
> who later killed a woman in the same manner at the same
> intersection.

There HAD to be drugs involved. Bus drivers are normally very good and polite drivers in my experience.

On 6/26/2023 12:50 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/26/2023 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/26/2023 8:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The mother of one of our former RBT contributors was run
>>> over by a city bus in exactly that way. She had the light
>>> and also a broken leg.
>>
>> It's not clear to me: Was she crossing in the crosswalk, or
>> away from it as this woman did?
>>
>
> She was, unlike your example, following The Official Directions.
>
> She crossed at a crosswalk after waiting for the pedestrian walk light
> and was hit by the same left-turning bus driver who later killed a woman
> in the same manner at the same intersection.

I'm on a bike advocacy board with one woman who is also deeply into
pedestrian advocacy. She has many examples of the ways laws and
facilities are prejudiced against pedestrians. She's quite passionate
about that.

You'll be glad to know that she hates roundabouts, not because of bike
issues but because of pedestrian issues.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/26/2023 8:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/26/2023 12:50 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 6/26/2023 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 6/26/2023 8:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The mother of one of our former RBT contributors was run
>>>> over by a city bus in exactly that way. She had the light
>>>> and also a broken leg.
>>>
>>> It's not clear to me: Was she crossing in the crosswalk, or
>>> away from it as this woman did?
>>>
>>
>> She was, unlike your example, following The Official
>> Directions.
>>
>> She crossed at a crosswalk after waiting for the
>> pedestrian walk light and was hit by the same left-turning
>> bus driver who later killed a woman in the same manner at
>> the same intersection.
>
> I'm on a bike advocacy board with one woman who is also
> deeply into pedestrian advocacy. She has many examples of
> the ways laws and facilities are prejudiced against
> pedestrians. She's quite passionate about that.
>
> You'll be glad to know that she hates roundabouts, not
> because of bike issues but because of pedestrian issues.
>
>

It's the same issue.

Autos are rightfully distracted by other vehicles at varying
speeds merging (or colliding) from both sides. Cyclists and
pedestrians are at risk of being road bumps.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, June 27, 2023 at 5:55:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/26/2023 8:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 6/26/2023 12:50 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 6/26/2023 10:02 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 6/26/2023 8:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The mother of one of our former RBT contributors was run
> >>>> over by a city bus in exactly that way. She had the light
> >>>> and also a broken leg.
> >>>
> >>> It's not clear to me: Was she crossing in the crosswalk, or
> >>> away from it as this woman did?
> >>>
> >>
> >> She was, unlike your example, following The Official
> >> Directions.
> >>
> >> She crossed at a crosswalk after waiting for the
> >> pedestrian walk light and was hit by the same left-turning
> >> bus driver who later killed a woman in the same manner at
> >> the same intersection.
> >
> > I'm on a bike advocacy board with one woman who is also
> > deeply into pedestrian advocacy. She has many examples of
> > the ways laws and facilities are prejudiced against
> > pedestrians. She's quite passionate about that.
> >
> > You'll be glad to know that she hates roundabouts, not
> > because of bike issues but because of pedestrian issues.
> >
> >
> It's the same issue.
>
> Autos are rightfully distracted by other vehicles at varying
> speeds merging (or colliding) from both sides. Cyclists and
> pedestrians are at risk of being road bumps.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Pedestrians do not cross roundabouts, they cross on either side.

On 6/27/2023 10:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 27, 2023 at 5:55:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 6/26/2023 8:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm on a bike advocacy board with one woman who is also
>>> deeply into pedestrian advocacy. She has many examples of
>>> the ways laws and facilities are prejudiced against
>>> pedestrians. She's quite passionate about that.
>>>
>>> You'll be glad to know that she hates roundabouts, not
>>> because of bike issues but because of pedestrian issues.
>>>
>>>
>> It's the same issue.
>>
>> Autos are rightfully distracted by other vehicles at varying
>> speeds merging (or colliding) from both sides. Cyclists and
>> pedestrians are at risk of being road bumps.

Again, I've had no real trouble on the single lane roundabouts I ride. I
take the lane, and on two occasions I've given a "Stop!" signal to
motorists I thought were approaching too quickly, as if they might not
yield. Otherwise IME it's been smooth sailing, only slightly more
complicated when three or more cyclists are riding together.

> Pedestrians do not cross roundabouts, they cross on either side.

Pedestrians have a different problem, if traffic is heavy. There are no
red lights to separate vehicles into platoons. Pedestrians then have to
start out into a crosswalk as vehicles approach, hoping a motorist will
have mercy. It's a particular problem for walkers with vision problems.

There are design features that can reduce the problem, but they are not
normally employed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2023-06-24, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 6/24/2023 4:25 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 6/23/2023 4:53 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There are a lot of people who are afraid of riding in the dark, no
>>>>> matter what headlights are available.
>>>>>
>>>>> We live in a very, very fearful society, as evidenced by post here.
>>>>>
>>>> I grew up in the countryside beyond rural ie off the road network and sort
>>>> of place can’t get takeaways too or even taxis! So I’m not worried about
>>>> the dark.
>>>
>>> I'm not convinced the fear of the dark is explained just by where one
>>> has grown up. I grew up in city and suburbs, so total darkness was never
>>> really available. But not only am I not afraid of the dark, I actually
>>> bemoan its passing. https://www.darksky.org/
>>>
>>>> But back to point does depend where and who one is, for example walking
>>>> home via the woods late night around my folks place the chance of meeting
>>>> someone is fairly unlikely let alone any personal risk, compared to say one
>>>> of the town centres for example on my commute is fairly iffy subway not
>>>> realistic way around it.
>>>>
>>>> I know one of my colleagues half my size and woman will not go through it
>>>> as it’s dark and dingy and has occasionally some folks sleeping in it.
>>>>
>>>> I’m not viewed as threat but it rightly makes my colleague anxious.
>>>
>>> I've read quite a bit about the failure of the extensive bike trails to
>>> attract significant use in places like Milton Keynes and Stephenage.
>>> Those towns were designed so people could easily get anywhere by
>>> separate paths, no cars required. To eliminate car-bike conflicts as
>>> much as possible, there are underpasses on the bike paths. But at least
>>> some people complain that those spots make them feel insecure, so that's
>>> been listed as a reason for the mode share failure.
>>
>> I though it was more the wandering nature of the bike trails, plus it was
>> so easy to use a car that folks took the easier option?
>
> That's been mentioned too, of course. Like most things, there are
> probably multiple contributing factors.
>
> I remember the first time we visited England, back in 1976. We attended
> an evening concert in some small city (maybe Salisbury?) and I was
> pleasantly surprised to see lots of pedestrians walking about in the
> dark of night after the concert ended. Then and now, that would be rare
> in most places in the U.S. Here, I think more people are afraid of the
> dark.
>

I am wont to think it's more about people here being more afraid of
malefactors in the dark awaiting them.

I love the real dark here where I live.

pH

On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 21:51:29 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
wrote:

>On 2023-06-24, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 6/24/2023 4:25 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6/23/2023 4:53 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are a lot of people who are afraid of riding in the dark, no
>>>>>> matter what headlights are available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We live in a very, very fearful society, as evidenced by post here.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I grew up in the countryside beyond rural ie off the road network and sort
>>>>> of place can’t get takeaways too or even taxis! So I’m not worried about
>>>>> the dark.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not convinced the fear of the dark is explained just by where one
>>>> has grown up. I grew up in city and suburbs, so total darkness was never
>>>> really available. But not only am I not afraid of the dark, I actually
>>>> bemoan its passing. https://www.darksky.org/
>>>>
>>>>> But back to point does depend where and who one is, for example walking
>>>>> home via the woods late night around my folks place the chance of meeting
>>>>> someone is fairly unlikely let alone any personal risk, compared to say one
>>>>> of the town centres for example on my commute is fairly iffy subway not
>>>>> realistic way around it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know one of my colleagues half my size and woman will not go through it
>>>>> as it’s dark and dingy and has occasionally some folks sleeping in it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not viewed as threat but it rightly makes my colleague anxious.
>>>>
>>>> I've read quite a bit about the failure of the extensive bike trails to
>>>> attract significant use in places like Milton Keynes and Stephenage.
>>>> Those towns were designed so people could easily get anywhere by
>>>> separate paths, no cars required. To eliminate car-bike conflicts as
>>>> much as possible, there are underpasses on the bike paths. But at least
>>>> some people complain that those spots make them feel insecure, so that's
>>>> been listed as a reason for the mode share failure.
>>>
>>> I though it was more the wandering nature of the bike trails, plus it was
>>> so easy to use a car that folks took the easier option?
>>
>> That's been mentioned too, of course. Like most things, there are
>> probably multiple contributing factors.
>>
>> I remember the first time we visited England, back in 1976. We attended
>> an evening concert in some small city (maybe Salisbury?) and I was
>> pleasantly surprised to see lots of pedestrians walking about in the
>> dark of night after the concert ended. Then and now, that would be rare
>> in most places in the U.S. Here, I think more people are afraid of the
>> dark.
>>
>
>I am wont to think it's more about people here being more afraid of
>malefactors in the dark awaiting them.
>
>I love the real dark here where I live.
>
>pH

I like walking in the dark in the early morning hours when most people
are sound asleep. I like the pease and quiet. I'd like riding then,
too, but the trails are all closed.