My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
message.

Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
is not like a power-on reset.

The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
and this thing contains several relays.

The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
the point where they're no longer adequate.

Any thoughts?

Sylvia.

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 Dec 2021 22:17:48 +1100) it happened Sylvia Else
<sylvia@email.invalid> wrote in <j2ocutFndc7U1@mid.individual.net>:

>My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
>while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
>it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
>message.
>
>Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
>is not like a power-on reset.
>
>The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
>current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
>and this thing contains several relays.
>
>The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
>it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
>would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
>the point where they're no longer adequate.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Sylvia.

If you have a scope measure the ripple voltage on those electrolytic caps
Also in most cases with faulty wallwarts I have seen
the bad caps are a bit swollen at the top.
_____
(_____|=========
.
/ \
|

On 2021-12-25, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
> it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
> message.
>
> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
> is not like a power-on reset.
>
> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
> and this thing contains several relays.
>
> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
> it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
> would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
> the point where they're no longer adequate.
>
> Any thoughts?

I've seen capacitors fail to perform when hot, somewhere near the top
of their temperature range performance begins to decline.

--
Jasen.

On 2021-12-25, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving.

> Any thoughts?

could be a voltage regulator going into thermal limiting?

--
Jasen.

On 25-Dec-21 10:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
> it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
> message.
>
> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
> is not like a power-on reset.
>
> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
> and this thing contains several relays.
>
> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
> it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
> would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
> the point where they're no longer adequate.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Sylvia.
Thanks for the replies.

My diagnosis is a burnt-out fan motor. This fan is meant to keep the
electronics cool.

Sylvia.

On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 22:17:48 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

>My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
>while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
>it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
>message.
>
>Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
>is not like a power-on reset.
>
>The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
>current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
>and this thing contains several relays.
>
>The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
>it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
>would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
>the point where they're no longer adequate.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Sylvia.

The relay coils are copper, which increases in resistance by about
+.4%/°C. Relays are *current operated* devices (ampere*turns) that
happen to be specified in terms of nominal operating voltage.

So if the power supply is marginal the relay might not pull in when
it's warm. I would guess the capacitors are the culprit.
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

In article <j2ocutFndc7U1@mid.individual.net>,
Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

>The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
>it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
>would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
>the point where they're no longer adequate.
>
>Any thoughts?

Could still be bad caps, could be cracked/broken solder joints on the PC
board, loose or intermittent cable connections.

If a replacement controller board isn't available, then an R&R of all
of the electrolytic caps (use good-brand 105C or better), and
inspection of all solder joints (especially those on connectors) and a
touch-up of any questionable ones with proper solder and flux would be
what I'd probably try.

On 25/12/2021 9:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
> it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
> message.
>
> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
> is not like a power-on reset.
>
> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
> and this thing contains several relays.
>
> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
> it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
> would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
> the point where they're no longer adequate.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Sylvia.

Call an authorized repairer. They will have seen the problem before and
come with all parts required for repairs.

Fast repair, no sweat.

Also, even if you are eminently qualified to do such a repair, if an
insurance company wants to fight paying out (say for example, your house
burns down for some other reason) they may try to say the fire started
with the oven and it was your fault because you were not authorized to
do the repair and did not use authorized components. It does not happen
often, but it does happen.

We live in an age of compliance and legal liability not the past age of
competence and ability -

On 27-Dec-21 7:01 pm, David Eather wrote:
> On 25/12/2021 9:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
>> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers.
>> Eventually it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program
>> Cancelled" message.
>>
>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running.
>> This is not like a power-on reset.
>>
>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
>> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that
>> before, and this thing contains several relays.
>>
>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
>> it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
>> would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
>> the point where they're no longer adequate.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> Call an authorized repairer. They will have seen the problem before and
> come with all parts required for repairs.
>
> Fast repair, no sweat.
>
> Also, even if you are eminently qualified to do such a repair, if an
> insurance company wants to fight paying out (say for example, your house
> burns down for some other reason) they may try to say the fire started
> with the oven and it was your fault because you were not authorized to
> do the repair and did not use authorized components. It does not happen
> often, but it does happen.
>
> We live in an age of compliance and legal liability not the past age of
> competence and ability -

I live in Australia. Insurers don't get to pull that nonsense here.

As for arriving with the required parts, they don't do component level
repair, and it's unlikely boards are still available for this oven,
which is probably more than 15 years old.

Sylvia.

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 2:13:33 AM UTC, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 25-Dec-21 10:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> > My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
> > while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
> > it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
> > message.
> >
> > Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
> > is not like a power-on reset.
> >
> > The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
> > current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
> > and this thing contains several relays.
> >
> > The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
> > it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
> > would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
> > the point where they're no longer adequate.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Sylvia.
> Thanks for the replies.
>
> My diagnosis is a burnt-out fan motor. This fan is meant to keep the
> electronics cool.
>
> Sylvia.

Ah, so you've determined that the fan was the cause?
I take it this is an "in wall" unit, not a free-standing oven
(= "range" in the U.S., with stove top). Being an in-wall
type makes sense to me it needs a cooling fan. The
"range" types put all the electronics in separate housing
away from the heat.

FWIW, my first guess was going to be:
Check the AC mains line voltage (easier than opening
up the oven...) Maybe its low "brown out", due to faulty
wiring or circuit breaker, or excessive loading on that branch.

On 27-Dec-21 7:12 pm, Rich S wrote:
> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 2:13:33 AM UTC, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 25-Dec-21 10:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
>>> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
>>> it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
>>> message.
>>>
>>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
>>> is not like a power-on reset.
>>>
>>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
>>> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
>>> and this thing contains several relays.
>>>
>>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
>>> it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
>>> would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
>>> the point where they're no longer adequate.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>> Thanks for the replies.
>>
>> My diagnosis is a burnt-out fan motor. This fan is meant to keep the
>> electronics cool.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> Ah, so you've determined that the fan was the cause?

"determined that it was the cause" is perhaps over stating it, but the
fan is clearly broken, and without it the electronics bay was heating
up. Jasen's suggestion that a regulator would go into thermal limiting
is then entirely plausible.

It would also explain why I could never reproduce the issue with the
cover off - the extra ventilation was keeping the temperature down.

I'm left wondering whether I previously just failed to notice the fan
wasn't running, or whether the fault was somehow intermittent. I'll
probably never know now.

> I take it this is an "in wall" unit, not a free-standing oven
> (= "range" in the U.S., with stove top). Being an in-wall
> type makes sense to me it needs a cooling fan. The
> "range" types put all the electronics in separate housing
> away from the heat.

Yes.

Sylvia.

On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 19:35:08 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

>On 27-Dec-21 7:12 pm, Rich S wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 2:13:33 AM UTC, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 25-Dec-21 10:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
>>>> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
>>>> it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
>>>> message.
>>>>
>>>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
>>>> is not like a power-on reset.
>>>>
>>>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
>>>> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
>>>> and this thing contains several relays.
>>>>
>>>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
>>>> it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
>>>> would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
>>>> the point where they're no longer adequate.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>> Thanks for the replies.
>>>
>>> My diagnosis is a burnt-out fan motor. This fan is meant to keep the
>>> electronics cool.
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>> Ah, so you've determined that the fan was the cause?
>
>"determined that it was the cause" is perhaps over stating it, but the
>fan is clearly broken, and without it the electronics bay was heating
>up. Jasen's suggestion that a regulator would go into thermal limiting
>is then entirely plausible.
>
>It would also explain why I could never reproduce the issue with the
>cover off - the extra ventilation was keeping the temperature down.
>
>I'm left wondering whether I previously just failed to notice the fan
>wasn't running, or whether the fault was somehow intermittent. I'll
>probably never know now.
>
>> I take it this is an "in wall" unit, not a free-standing oven
>> (= "range" in the U.S., with stove top). Being an in-wall
>> type makes sense to me it needs a cooling fan. The
>> "range" types put all the electronics in separate housing
>> away from the heat.
>
>Yes.
>
>Sylvia.

They're 'usually' pretty quiet and hidden. though
they might get noisier before seizing up.

If the coil's not actually fused open, it just needs a
bit of cleaning.

RL

On 28-Dec-21 1:33 am, legg wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 19:35:08 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 27-Dec-21 7:12 pm, Rich S wrote:
>>> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 2:13:33 AM UTC, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> On 25-Dec-21 10:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
>>>>> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
>>>>> it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
>>>>> message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
>>>>> is not like a power-on reset.
>>>>>
>>>>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
>>>>> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
>>>>> and this thing contains several relays.
>>>>>
>>>>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
>>>>> it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
>>>>> would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
>>>>> the point where they're no longer adequate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>> Thanks for the replies.
>>>>
>>>> My diagnosis is a burnt-out fan motor. This fan is meant to keep the
>>>> electronics cool.
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>>
>>> Ah, so you've determined that the fan was the cause?
>>
>> "determined that it was the cause" is perhaps over stating it, but the
>> fan is clearly broken, and without it the electronics bay was heating
>> up. Jasen's suggestion that a regulator would go into thermal limiting
>> is then entirely plausible.
>>
>> It would also explain why I could never reproduce the issue with the
>> cover off - the extra ventilation was keeping the temperature down.
>>
>> I'm left wondering whether I previously just failed to notice the fan
>> wasn't running, or whether the fault was somehow intermittent. I'll
>> probably never know now.
>>
>>> I take it this is an "in wall" unit, not a free-standing oven
>>> (= "range" in the U.S., with stove top). Being an in-wall
>>> type makes sense to me it needs a cooling fan. The
>>> "range" types put all the electronics in separate housing
>>> away from the heat.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> They're 'usually' pretty quiet and hidden. though
> they might get noisier before seizing up.
>
> If the coil's not actually fused open, it just needs a
> bit of cleaning.
>
> RL

It's a three-speed shaded-pole motor. Only the highest speed contact has
continuity with common. The other two are neither connected to common,
nor to each other. The wire to the lowest speed contact has vapourised,
leaving a black residue.

It's not clear why that would leave the medium speed contact isolated.

Sylvia.

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 11:56:18 PM UTC, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 28-Dec-21 1:33 am, legg wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 19:35:08 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 27-Dec-21 7:12 pm, Rich S wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 2:13:33 AM UTC, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>>> On 25-Dec-21 10:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>>>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
> >>>>> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually
> >>>>> it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled"
> >>>>> message.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This
> >>>>> is not like a power-on reset.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
> >>>>> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before,
> >>>>> and this thing contains several relays.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when
> >>>>> it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which
> >>>>> would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to
> >>>>> the point where they're no longer adequate.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Any thoughts?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sylvia.
> >>>> Thanks for the replies.
> >>>>
> >>>> My diagnosis is a burnt-out fan motor. This fan is meant to keep the
> >>>> electronics cool.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sylvia.
> >>>
> >>> Ah, so you've determined that the fan was the cause?
> >>
> >> "determined that it was the cause" is perhaps over stating it, but the
> >> fan is clearly broken, and without it the electronics bay was heating
> >> up. Jasen's suggestion that a regulator would go into thermal limiting
> >> is then entirely plausible.
> >>
> >> It would also explain why I could never reproduce the issue with the
> >> cover off - the extra ventilation was keeping the temperature down.
> >>
> >> I'm left wondering whether I previously just failed to notice the fan
> >> wasn't running, or whether the fault was somehow intermittent. I'll
> >> probably never know now.
> >>
> >>> I take it this is an "in wall" unit, not a free-standing oven
> >>> (= "range" in the U.S., with stove top). Being an in-wall
> >>> type makes sense to me it needs a cooling fan. The
> >>> "range" types put all the electronics in separate housing
> >>> away from the heat.
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >> Sylvia.
> >
> > They're 'usually' pretty quiet and hidden. though
> > they might get noisier before seizing up.
> >
> > If the coil's not actually fused open, it just needs a
> > bit of cleaning.
> >
> > RL
> It's a three-speed shaded-pole motor. Only the highest speed contact has
> continuity with common. The other two are neither connected to common,
> nor to each other. The wire to the lowest speed contact has vapourised,
> leaving a black residue.
>
> It's not clear why that would leave the medium speed contact isolated.
>
> Sylvia.

OK so it's an AC line-powered fan.
If it has several wires (for High, Medium and Low-speed)
(plus the common) then it could be a capacitor-coupled
speed control. Sometimes the capacitor fails and the
armature is fine. Of course repairing this may not be
any more appealing than just replacing the whole
fan unit :-) Cheers, RS

On 27/12/2021 6:11 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 27-Dec-21 7:01 pm, David Eather wrote:
>> On 25/12/2021 9:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
>>> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers.
>>> Eventually it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program
>>> Cancelled" message.
>>>
>>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running.
>>> This is not like a power-on reset.
>>>
>>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
>>> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that
>>> before, and this thing contains several relays.
>>>
>>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing
>>> when it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors
>>> which would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've
>>> aged to the point where they're no longer adequate.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>> Call an authorized repairer. They will have seen the problem before
>> and come with all parts required for repairs.
>>
>> Fast repair, no sweat.
>>
>> Also, even if you are eminently qualified to do such a repair, if an
>> insurance company wants to fight paying out (say for example, your
>> house burns down for some other reason) they may try to say the fire
>> started with the oven and it was your fault because you were not
>> authorized to do the repair and did not use authorized components. It
>> does not happen often, but it does happen.
>>
>> We live in an age of compliance and legal liability not the past age
>> of competence and ability -
>
> I live in Australia. Insurers don't get to pull that nonsense here.
>
> As for arriving with the required parts, they don't do component level
> repair, and it's unlikely boards are still available for this oven,
> which is probably more than 15 years old.
>
> Sylvia.

The age thing is very valid.

But, I also live in Australia. This is about 20 years ago: My bestie, a
technician with a trade school qualification and a Associate Diploma in
electrical engineering had an insurance assessor tried to pin a house
fire on his repair of a TV. He had to jump up and down and make all
sorts of noises to stop that, and the fire then went down as "unknown
causes" so it didn't get to the insurance company, but if my mate wasn't
there and didn't put up a vigorous defense it would have. You can judge
yourself if the insurance company would have tried to reclaim it's
payout. Much later it came out that a child who lived at the house had
been playing with candles, did something silly and was scared to own up.

On 28-Dec-21 3:30 pm, David Eather wrote:
> On 27/12/2021 6:11 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 27-Dec-21 7:01 pm, David Eather wrote:
>>> On 25/12/2021 9:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
>>>> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers.
>>>> Eventually it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program
>>>> Cancelled" message.
>>>>
>>>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running.
>>>> This is not like a power-on reset.
>>>>
>>>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little
>>>> coil current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across
>>>> that before, and this thing contains several relays.
>>>>
>>>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing
>>>> when it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors
>>>> which would be expected to perform better when warm, even if they've
>>>> aged to the point where they're no longer adequate.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>>
>>> Call an authorized repairer. They will have seen the problem before
>>> and come with all parts required for repairs.
>>>
>>> Fast repair, no sweat.
>>>
>>> Also, even if you are eminently qualified to do such a repair, if an
>>> insurance company wants to fight paying out (say for example, your
>>> house burns down for some other reason) they may try to say the fire
>>> started with the oven and it was your fault because you were not
>>> authorized to do the repair and did not use authorized components. It
>>> does not happen often, but it does happen.
>>>
>>> We live in an age of compliance and legal liability not the past age
>>> of competence and ability -
>>
>> I live in Australia. Insurers don't get to pull that nonsense here.
>>
>> As for arriving with the required parts, they don't do component level
>> repair, and it's unlikely boards are still available for this oven,
>> which is probably more than 15 years old.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> The age thing is very valid.
>
> But, I also live in Australia. This is about 20 years ago: My bestie, a
> technician with a trade school qualification and a Associate Diploma in
> electrical engineering had an insurance assessor tried to pin a house
> fire on his repair of a TV. He had to jump up and down and make all
> sorts of noises to stop that, and the fire then went down as "unknown
> causes" so it didn't get to the insurance company, but if my mate wasn't
> there and didn't put up a vigorous defense it would have. You can judge
> yourself if the insurance company would have tried to reclaim it's
> payout. Much later it came out that a child who lived at the house had
> been playing with candles, did something silly and was scared to own up.

It ultimately depends on the terms and conditions of the insurance
contract, but I would be surprised if it would have made any difference
to the outcome if your bestie had in fact caused the fire by way of the
repair to his television. To avoid its liability the insurer would have
to show, on balance of probability, that it was the intent of your
bestie that the television catch fire.

It's somewhat analogous to insuring one's car against damage in a crash.
While some crashes arise with a genuine lack of fault on anyone's part
(sudden medical event, for example), most crashes are the result of a
driver doing something they shouldn't. Only the shonkiest of insurers
issue policies that only cover no-fault accidents.

As an aside, note that many car-hire contracts, including from some well
known car rental contracts, have terms that exclude liability for
accidents that result from a breach of the road rules, which puts those
into the same group as the shonkiest of insurers, and those rental
companies should be avoided by anyone who doesn't want to become bankrupt.

Sylvia.

On 12/27/2021 1:11 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 27-Dec-21 7:01 pm, David Eather wrote:
>> On 25/12/2021 9:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a while,
>>> it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually it shuts
>>> off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled" message.
>>>
>>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This is
>>> not like a power-on reset.
>>>
>>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
>>> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before, and
>>> this thing contains several relays.
>>>
>>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when it's
>>> got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which would be
>>> expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to the point
>>> where they're no longer adequate.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>> Call an authorized repairer. They will have seen the problem before and come
>> with all parts required for repairs.
>>
>> Fast repair, no sweat.
>>
>> Also, even if you are eminently qualified to do such a repair, if an
>> insurance company wants to fight paying out (say for example, your house
>> burns down for some other reason) they may try to say the fire started with
>> the oven and it was your fault because you were not authorized to do the
>> repair and did not use authorized components. It does not happen often, but
>> it does happen.
>>
>> We live in an age of compliance and legal liability not the past age of
>> competence and ability -
>
> I live in Australia. Insurers don't get to pull that nonsense here.

Here (SW USA), the previous homeowner is liable for electrical faults
for a period of 5 years AFTER the sale of a property. As the oven would
likely be sold WITH the house, your liability would extend far into the
next owner's occupancy.

A bigger concern is not wanting to put *oneself* at risk as YOU will be
occupying the place in the near term.

It is for this reason that I either do my own repairs *or* actively
supervise the party doing them.

[I once had a firm replace the brakes in a vehicle. Some *years*
later, had a front spindle bearing fail which rendered the front
brakes completely useless (the calibers being pushed apart by
the wobbling wheel). I applied the emergency/parking brake
which is a purely mechanical system affecting only the rear
*drum* brakes. Only to discover that they also had failed.
It turns out, the reshoeing had left out the mechanical link
(just a solid steel bar) that allows the emergency/parking brake
to pull one shoe into the drum via the second shoe. The link was
present on one side of the vehicle but ineffective owing to the
slack designed into the emergency/parking brake cabling. (had the
link *not* been present when the reshoeing was done, one can bet
the shop would have brought it to my attention and charged me
accordingly for its replacement! instead, they had simply forgot
to install it)]

> As for arriving with the required parts, they don't do component level repair,
> and it's unlikely boards are still available for this oven, which is probably
> more than 15 years old.

It wouldn't be uncommon to find a spare part for a major appliance
at 20+ years, here. You might not be able to find a replacement
"plastic shelf bracket" for the interior of a refrigerator. Or,
the louvered control door that gates cold air into the refrigerator
compartment from the freezer. But, you'd find an icemaker,
compressor, etc.

Don WHY does this fool exist wrote:
=============================
>
>>
> >> Also, even if you are eminently qualified to do such a repair, if an
> >> insurance company wants to fight paying out (say for example, your house
> >> burns down for some other reason) they may try to say the fire started with
> >> the oven and it was your fault because you were not authorized to do the
> >> repair and did not use authorized components. It does not happen often, but
> >> it does happen.
> >
> > I live in Australia. Insurers don't get to pull that nonsense here.
>
> Here (SW USA), the previous homeowner is liable for electrical faults
> for a period of 5 years AFTER the sale of a property.

** Only if it can be proven they were responsible for them and serious harm was the DIRECT result.
Being " not immune " and being * liable* are not the same thing.

> As the oven would
> likely be sold WITH the house, your liability would extend far into the
> next owner's occupancy.

** Hypothetical bullshit.

> It is for this reason that I either do my own repairs *or* actively
> supervise the party doing them.
>

** Bet they fucking hate that.

> > As for arriving with the required parts, they don't do component level repair,
> > and it's unlikely boards are still available for this oven, which is probably
> > more than 15 years old.
>
> It wouldn't be uncommon to find a spare part for a major appliance
> at 20+ years, here.

** It wouldn't be uncommon not to either.
Particularly PCB boards.

....... Phil

On 12/27/2021 1:11 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 27-Dec-21 7:01 pm, David Eather wrote:
>> On 25/12/2021 9:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a while,
>>> it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers. Eventually it shuts
>>> off, resets itself, and restarts with a "Program Cancelled" message.
>>>
>>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running. This is
>>> not like a power-on reset.
>>>
>>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little coil
>>> current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across that before, and
>>> this thing contains several relays.
>>>
>>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing when it's
>>> got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors which would be
>>> expected to perform better when warm, even if they've aged to the point
>>> where they're no longer adequate.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>> Call an authorized repairer. They will have seen the problem before and come
>> with all parts required for repairs.
>>
>> Fast repair, no sweat.
>>
>> Also, even if you are eminently qualified to do such a repair, if an
>> insurance company wants to fight paying out (say for example, your house
>> burns down for some other reason) they may try to say the fire started with
>> the oven and it was your fault because you were not authorized to do the
>> repair and did not use authorized components. It does not happen often, but
>> it does happen.

A neighbor had an electrical fire in her automobile, parked out front of her
house. The city FD came to extinguish it. And, did so.

Some hours later (after bedtime), the fire reignited. Turns out, the FD never
disconnected the battery so the ignition source was still present. Car
burned. Along with the *entire* house (one of the few wood-framed in the
neighborhood).

Didn't take much effort for her insurance company to eek out these facts.

And, the city to pay to *rebuild* her home! (eery feeling seeing an
empty, charred slab... and then the original house BACK on it!) I wonder
what would have happened had she (or another neighbor) lost her life in
the blaze?

>> We live in an age of compliance and legal liability not the past age of
>> competence and ability -
>
> I live in Australia. Insurers don't get to pull that nonsense here.
>
> As for arriving with the required parts, they don't do component level repair,
> and it's unlikely boards are still available for this oven, which is probably
> more than 15 years old.

Any real estate transaction, here, (legally) requires the seller to disclose
ALL "material" facts about the property that could be seen as affecting
its value, or potential hazards (liabilities) going forwards.

It is not possible to avoid the disclosure with a /caveat emptor/ clause.
I.e., an "as is" sale simply says "Seller isn't going to fix/upgrade the
items that should otherwise be fixed/upgraded". But, IT DOES NOT ABSOLVE
YOU FROM THE DISCLOSURE REQUIREMENT! The disclosure is required even if the
buyer fails to ask.

<https://www.aaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Residential-Sellers-Property-Disclosure-Statement-SPDS_REV_01Oct2017.pdf>

There are additional requirements placed on issues that the buyer *does*
inquire about! So, if you answer "Are you aware of any PAST or PRESENT
(emphasis mine) problems with any built-in appliances? Explain:" with
anything other than "No/None", the buyer can ask you to elaborate on
your answer and you are obligated to "disclose the information, even if
you do not consider the information to be material".

Failing to disclose something you KNOW about leaves you liable for that
*fraud*. Which means, buyer can sue to be "made whole" for consequences
of your omissions/misrepresentations. "My house burned down because of a
fault in the oven that was not disclosed, by seller, at time of purchase"

[We keep files on ever aspect of the house -- repairs, alterations,
enhancements, etc. This documents what was done, when, by whom and
for how much (the latter allows adjustments to resale value). So,
in addition to acting as a convenient reference for us, it also
forms the basis for any future "disclosure" requirement. It gives
the impression of thoroughness. Contrast with "No, I can't think
of anything important..."]

Note that disclosure applies to anything you *learn* about your property
up to the time of sale. So, if a home inspector discovers something, you
have to report that, as well ("Gee, I didn't know the house had termites
until the inspection, yesterday!")

Of course, if you don't know something, you can't disclose it (e.g.,
the house sitting on a toxic waste site)

Agents (and inspectors) have additional requirements consequential to their
licensing.

And, commercial properties have some additional "seller bias" built in
(the thinking being that a buyer of a commercial property can/should have
the resources to conduct a detailed inspection).

Of course, you can *lie* about what you know. But, you'd have to be wary of
being caught in that lie (and thus guilty of intentional fraud instead of
negligent fraud). Remember, the party suing will have "representation" and
likely have experience in that regard. Esp if an insurer with money at stake!

Looking at date codes of a PCB (or the components ON the PCB) in an appliance
and comparing to your term of ownership can easily convince a jury (of people
who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty!) that you *must* have
known of a repair -- even if you deny having made it, yourself.

Household wiring, here, is stamped with a date code every few feet. So, you
can prove that it was installed no *earlier* than that date (and it
was obviously installed no LATER than the date of the legal action!).

Neighbors can be queried to get an impression of the type of person you are
(DIY vs. hire-out vs. pay-unlicensed-under-table). Neighbors are often
very chatty with folks without realizing where that information might
be going! (We've had private detectives come to the door asking about
other folks in the neighborhood)

The county clerk has records of permits issued against your property, etc.
You usually have to disclose any insurance claims made within the past
5 years.

Point being, if someone incurs a significant loss (including loss of life)
as a result of one of your actions, there is likely a significant motivation
to go after you for (civil) damages. Esp if the alternative is for that
someone (insurance company!) to be faced with those losses!

Of course, that's *here*. Commenting on how things are done *there*, many
thousands of miles away with different legal system, etc. would be as
foolish as expecting someone from THERE to think they understood how
things are done *here*! (How close to the front door of a public
building can I be and still legally smoke a cigarette? What are the rules
regarding my carrying of a firearm in public? Under what conditions do I
have to *pay* for my rescue? What are the criteria that constitute
"running" a traffic signal? What are the limits on "automated traffic
regulation enforcement"? What constitutes a "barking dog" violation?
How much light can be directed skyward from exterior illumination?
What color temperature limitations are placed on those fixtures? When
is rainwater harvesting *required*? How deep can water accumulate before
considered a fine-able action? Over what size area? etc. A myriad of
things that the pols and citizenry, here, have decided are important
enough to codify into law. It's always amusing to see where a region's
values lie!)

On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 22:16:58 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>
>It wouldn't be uncommon to find a spare part for a major appliance
>at 20+ years, here.

Did you know there's a couple little pieces of plastic at the bottom
door hinge in Kenmore fridges that makes the door close the last few
inches? It wears out and becomes smooth and the door has a tendency
to stay open a bit more than the magnetic seal can grab.

Easily available as a repair item from the parts suppliers, kind of
stupid expensive ($20 US or so) but not the sort of thing that's
easily 3D printed or otherwise.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71j2XGi1wjS._AC_SL1500_.jpg

I think ours is 20+ now. Ice maker still works, no issues.
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

On 12/28/2021 3:32 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 22:16:58 -0700, Don Y
> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> It wouldn't be uncommon to find a spare part for a major appliance
>> at 20+ years, here.
>
> Did you know there's a couple little pieces of plastic at the bottom
> door hinge in Kenmore fridges that makes the door close the last few
> inches? It wears out and becomes smooth and the door has a tendency
> to stay open a bit more than the magnetic seal can grab.
>
> Easily available as a repair item from the parts suppliers, kind of
> stupid expensive ($20 US or so) but not the sort of thing that's
> easily 3D printed or otherwise.
>
> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71j2XGi1wjS._AC_SL1500_.jpg
>
> I think ours is 20+ now. Ice maker still works, no issues.

Our frig is on rollers. They are made of plastic and develop flat spots,
cracks, etc. Insanely expensive (for a simple cylinder of plastic
with a hole bored through the axis). But, without them, moving the
frig is a PITA (as it would scratch the surface of the floor tile).

Big markets tend to encourage the availability of spares. Even if
the OEM stops supplying them, someone will often step in and
provide a drop-in alternative.

John Robertson (?) can attest to the viability of *developing* drop-in
replacement parts for his target market. Despite appearing a niche,
it is obviously big enough to justify his efforts!

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 15:51:07 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 12/28/2021 3:32 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 22:16:58 -0700, Don Y
>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It wouldn't be uncommon to find a spare part for a major appliance
>>> at 20+ years, here.
>>
>> Did you know there's a couple little pieces of plastic at the bottom
>> door hinge in Kenmore fridges that makes the door close the last few
>> inches? It wears out and becomes smooth and the door has a tendency
>> to stay open a bit more than the magnetic seal can grab.
>>
>> Easily available as a repair item from the parts suppliers, kind of
>> stupid expensive ($20 US or so) but not the sort of thing that's
>> easily 3D printed or otherwise.
>>
>> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71j2XGi1wjS._AC_SL1500_.jpg
>>
>> I think ours is 20+ now. Ice maker still works, no issues.
>
>Our frig is on rollers. They are made of plastic and develop flat spots,
>cracks, etc. Insanely expensive (for a simple cylinder of plastic
>with a hole bored through the axis). But, without them, moving the
>frig is a PITA (as it would scratch the surface of the floor tile).
>
>Big markets tend to encourage the availability of spares. Even if
>the OEM stops supplying them, someone will often step in and
>provide a drop-in alternative.
>
>John Robertson (?) can attest to the viability of *developing* drop-in
>replacement parts for his target market. Despite appearing a niche,
>it is obviously big enough to justify his efforts!

Have a lathe or know someone that does? Make replacement rollers out
of Delrin (generic name is acetal).

Here are some casters - maybe one will just fit

..<https://www.mcmaster.com/casters/>

Here is where to get small quantities of the material:

..<https://www.mcmaster.com/raw-materials/plastic/wear-resistant-easy-to-machine-acetal-rods-and-discs/>

Very easy to machine.

Joe Gwinn

On 28/12/2021 3:11 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 28-Dec-21 3:30 pm, David Eather wrote:
>> On 27/12/2021 6:11 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 27-Dec-21 7:01 pm, David Eather wrote:
>>>> On 25/12/2021 9:17 pm, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>> My kitchen's electric oven is misbehaving. After it's been on for a
>>>>> while, it can make a buzzing noise, and its LCD (?) flickers.
>>>>> Eventually it shuts off, resets itself, and restarts with a
>>>>> "Program Cancelled" message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Clearly, its microcontroller knows that it was previously running.
>>>>> This is not like a power-on reset.
>>>>>
>>>>> The buzzing sounds a bit like a relay that's receiving so little
>>>>> coil current that voltage ripple makes it buzz. I've come across
>>>>> that before, and this thing contains several relays.
>>>>>
>>>>> The obvious thought is dying electrolytic capacitors, but failing
>>>>> when it's got warm doesn't fit my understanding of such capacitors
>>>>> which would be expected to perform better when warm, even if
>>>>> they've aged to the point where they're no longer adequate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>
>>>> Call an authorized repairer. They will have seen the problem before
>>>> and come with all parts required for repairs.
>>>>
>>>> Fast repair, no sweat.
>>>>
>>>> Also, even if you are eminently qualified to do such a repair, if an
>>>> insurance company wants to fight paying out (say for example, your
>>>> house burns down for some other reason) they may try to say the fire
>>>> started with the oven and it was your fault because you were not
>>>> authorized to do the repair and did not use authorized components.
>>>> It does not happen often, but it does happen.
>>>>
>>>> We live in an age of compliance and legal liability not the past age
>>>> of competence and ability -
>>>
>>> I live in Australia. Insurers don't get to pull that nonsense here.
>>>
>>> As for arriving with the required parts, they don't do component
>>> level repair, and it's unlikely boards are still available for this
>>> oven, which is probably more than 15 years old.
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>> The age thing is very valid.
>>
>> But, I also live in Australia. This is about 20 years ago: My bestie,
>> a technician with a trade school qualification and a Associate Diploma
>> in electrical engineering had an insurance assessor tried to pin a
>> house fire on his repair of a TV. He had to jump up and down and make
>> all sorts of noises to stop that, and the fire then went down as
>> "unknown causes" so it didn't get to the insurance company, but if my
>> mate wasn't there and didn't put up a vigorous defense it would have.
>> You can judge yourself if the insurance company would have tried to
>> reclaim it's payout. Much later it came out that a child who lived at
>> the house had been playing with candles, did something silly and was
>> scared to own up.
>
> It ultimately depends on the terms and conditions of the insurance
> contract, but I would be surprised if it would have made any difference
> to the outcome if your bestie had in fact caused the fire by way of the
> repair to his television. To avoid its liability the insurer would have
> to show, on balance of probability, that it was the intent of your
> bestie that the television catch fire.
>
> It's somewhat analogous to insuring one's car against damage in a crash.
> While some crashes arise with a genuine lack of fault on anyone's part
> (sudden medical event, for example), most crashes are the result of a
> driver doing something they shouldn't. Only the shonkiest of insurers
> issue policies that only cover no-fault accidents.
>
> As an aside, note that many car-hire contracts, including from some well
> known car rental contracts, have terms that exclude liability for
> accidents that result from a breach of the road rules, which puts those
> into the same group as the shonkiest of insurers, and those rental
> companies should be avoided by anyone who doesn't want to become bankrupt.
>
> Sylvia.

not so. the insurer is not a court of law, they just need a suspicion to
not payout and then you have to go to court and fight (and pay) to get
your policy enforced and they will fight. your chance of winning is
rather small especially since they drew up the contract.

On 12/28/2021 4:45 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 15:51:07 -0700, Don Y
> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 12/28/2021 3:32 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 22:16:58 -0700, Don Y
>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It wouldn't be uncommon to find a spare part for a major appliance
>>>> at 20+ years, here.
>>>
>>> Did you know there's a couple little pieces of plastic at the bottom
>>> door hinge in Kenmore fridges that makes the door close the last few
>>> inches? It wears out and becomes smooth and the door has a tendency
>>> to stay open a bit more than the magnetic seal can grab.
>>>
>>> Easily available as a repair item from the parts suppliers, kind of
>>> stupid expensive ($20 US or so) but not the sort of thing that's
>>> easily 3D printed or otherwise.
>>>
>>> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71j2XGi1wjS._AC_SL1500_.jpg
>>>
>>> I think ours is 20+ now. Ice maker still works, no issues.
>>
>> Our frig is on rollers. They are made of plastic and develop flat spots,
>> cracks, etc. Insanely expensive (for a simple cylinder of plastic
>> with a hole bored through the axis). But, without them, moving the
>> frig is a PITA (as it would scratch the surface of the floor tile).
>>
>> Big markets tend to encourage the availability of spares. Even if
>> the OEM stops supplying them, someone will often step in and
>> provide a drop-in alternative.
>>
>> John Robertson (?) can attest to the viability of *developing* drop-in
>> replacement parts for his target market. Despite appearing a niche,
>> it is obviously big enough to justify his efforts!
>
> Have a lathe or know someone that does? Make replacement rollers out
> of Delrin (generic name is acetal).
>
> Here are some casters - maybe one will just fit
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/casters/>
>
> Here is where to get small quantities of the material:
>
> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/raw-materials/plastic/wear-resistant-easy-to-machine-acetal-rods-and-discs/>
>
> Very easy to machine.

My first thought (back then) was to *print* some. Simple, relatively small,
etc.

But, gave up on that when I considered how unlikely it might be to get
one that "rolled" well. (if it got stuck, then it would defeat the
purpose if it became a *skid* to drag the frig across the floor).

Then, considered cutting a 1.5" wide slice out of one of my solid
dowel rolling pins. But, a waste of a nice rolling pin!

Then, thought of a local metal supplier who has a "scrap" room
where material is sold by the pound at a discounted rate. Look
for a short length of aluminum (or -- ick -- CRS) dowel and have
*them* cut it into slices for me -- so I just have to drill the
center. But, that's a half hour drive, each way, plus waiting for
the cuts, etc.

Finally conceded to just ordering the parts from a local appliance
parts supplier and letting them deliver them to me (to save the
40 minute round trip to pick them up).

Sometimes, just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you
really *should*! Price might be outrageous -- considering what the
item *is* -- but time has value, as well.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:43:51 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 12/28/2021 4:45 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 15:51:07 -0700, Don Y
>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/28/2021 3:32 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 22:16:58 -0700, Don Y
>>>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It wouldn't be uncommon to find a spare part for a major appliance
>>>>> at 20+ years, here.
>>>>
>>>> Did you know there's a couple little pieces of plastic at the bottom
>>>> door hinge in Kenmore fridges that makes the door close the last few
>>>> inches? It wears out and becomes smooth and the door has a tendency
>>>> to stay open a bit more than the magnetic seal can grab.
>>>>
>>>> Easily available as a repair item from the parts suppliers, kind of
>>>> stupid expensive ($20 US or so) but not the sort of thing that's
>>>> easily 3D printed or otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71j2XGi1wjS._AC_SL1500_.jpg
>>>>
>>>> I think ours is 20+ now. Ice maker still works, no issues.
>>>
>>> Our frig is on rollers. They are made of plastic and develop flat spots,
>>> cracks, etc. Insanely expensive (for a simple cylinder of plastic
>>> with a hole bored through the axis). But, without them, moving the
>>> frig is a PITA (as it would scratch the surface of the floor tile).
>>>
>>> Big markets tend to encourage the availability of spares. Even if
>>> the OEM stops supplying them, someone will often step in and
>>> provide a drop-in alternative.
>>>
>>> John Robertson (?) can attest to the viability of *developing* drop-in
>>> replacement parts for his target market. Despite appearing a niche,
>>> it is obviously big enough to justify his efforts!
>>
>> Have a lathe or know someone that does? Make replacement rollers out
>> of Delrin (generic name is acetal).
>>
>> Here are some casters - maybe one will just fit
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/casters/>
>>
>> Here is where to get small quantities of the material:
>>
>> .<https://www.mcmaster.com/raw-materials/plastic/wear-resistant-easy-to-machine-acetal-rods-and-discs/>
>>
>> Very easy to machine.
>
>My first thought (back then) was to *print* some. Simple, relatively small,
>etc.
>
>But, gave up on that when I considered how unlikely it might be to get
>one that "rolled" well. (if it got stuck, then it would defeat the
>purpose if it became a *skid* to drag the frig across the floor).
>
>Then, considered cutting a 1.5" wide slice out of one of my solid
>dowel rolling pins. But, a waste of a nice rolling pin!
>
>Then, thought of a local metal supplier who has a "scrap" room
>where material is sold by the pound at a discounted rate. Look
>for a short length of aluminum (or -- ick -- CRS) dowel and have
>*them* cut it into slices for me -- so I just have to drill the
>center. But, that's a half hour drive, each way, plus waiting for
>the cuts, etc.
>
>Finally conceded to just ordering the parts from a local appliance
>parts supplier and letting them deliver them to me (to save the
>40 minute round trip to pick them up).
>
>Sometimes, just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you
>really *should*! Price might be outrageous -- considering what the
>item *is* -- but time has value, as well.

If you can just buy them, that will certainly be fastest and cheapest.

If the intent is instead to improve it (stop the flat spots), them
making your own may make sense. But cutoffs from a raw material
supplier will not be accurately cut enough to just drill a hole and
call it good. A machine tool is needed.

Joe Gwinn