Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 1:16:32 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:59:43 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 10:09:34 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 15:28:51 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 22:23:17 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 13:53:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 1:44:00?AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 23:12:06 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 11:02:30?AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:28:44?AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 2:35:36?PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 1:56:07?PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NASA and a flat-proof bicycle tire:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/vSNtifE0Z2Q
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They compare it to a Gatorskin riding over nails.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first 3 minutes are about bike tires. (And hey, for Americans,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gun content!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The remaining 24 minutes or so is interesting metallurgy for those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are curious. Stress-strain curve in 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dimensions! Unusual lattice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> structures! Thermal effects!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For bikes I would assume that ride quality which is what all airless
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tires
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to fail on even compared to Marathon plus let alone Gatorskins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something nice to ride on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And clearly you loose ability to tune the pressure to your weight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bar being shot this seems to be something that tubless can cope with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> punctures really are a problem. I?ve certainly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seen folks do similar nail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sheets ride overs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Though nails screws are largely fairly low probability personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did have to screw a screw out of the tire on Thursday riding though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> London, had heard it tapping but thought/hoped it was just a bit of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in the Big Apples!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting technology for specific uses but can?t see it being used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bikes for performance and probably cost reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you even begin to imagine what that material would cost let alone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retooling an entire industry to use a material 1/100th as good as what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been developed over the last 150 years?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone that could possibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that a lifetime tire made of special metal could be developed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply doesn't know how tires wear - they are abraded off by the road
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surface and not punctured to death. (though of course that does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasionally occur.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 28 mm Gatorskins are not in the least very hard riding. As Jeorg has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pointed out many times - the sidewalls on Gatorskins are not protected
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and hence flexible. The traction material is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not GP5000 grade but is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awful. I have a set on one of my bikes as an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiment and was happily
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprised that a tire as flat proof and as cheap as that can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be on the market.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless they have improved dramatically since I last used them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gatorskins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ride awful noticeably worse than other road training tires even ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cheaper! And have woeful grip I remember being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertained on moist days
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being able to spin the rear wheel with just a modicum of torque!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I found 4 season a much better blend particularly grip.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Though road tires in general aren?t particularly grippy hence wet roads
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feel so sketchy, it what I noticed moving to the old MTB
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the commute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the gravel bike, both have large grip margins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I moved away from Gatorskins because the new racing tires made such a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge increase in flat protection and have lower rolling resistance. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't corner like Pogaca to begin with. And then reading the relatively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high reported rolling resistance of the Michelin Pro4 and the reportedly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lower rolling resistance of the Michelin Power, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lost all faith in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolling resistance tests. I have the Michelin Power tires on my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fondriest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Pro4's on the Tomassini and you can PLAINLY tell that the Pro4's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are faster. And I could from the first day I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bought them. (though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> originally I was using Pro2's).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In my experience how a tire feels and it?s absolute performance can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to tease out, particularly as like for like tires will have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> broadly similar performance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would agree with you save the fact that I have multiple bikes that I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can ride with different tires and can directly compare them. Comparing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Pro4's and the Power Endurance is easy since the Power is so much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slower than the Pro4. But this is in direct contradiction to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolling resistance tests!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The drum tests I?d not hold much faith with!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did though note that one set of MTB tires that felt very slow when I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compared times vs older tires very closely matched and as such I realised
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was just the way those tires felt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Road to gravel bike tires due to the lower pressures ie sub 50psi tires do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feel softer and have more give and so can feel slow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again times seem to be fairly close.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell no bad tires out there assuming like for like, ie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decent high end stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I find the greatest difference not to be rolling resistance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but flat resistance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In theory tubeless would solve that, though I never had many flats back
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when I rode road bikes proper between 1/2 a year which included commuting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and so on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I ride 40s at 80/90 PSI. I've used Schwalbe Green Guard Marathons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively for about six years now. I'm mostly interested in comfort
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and convenience than high speed, and averaging 13/14 mph on 40+ mile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rides is fast enough for a soon_to_be 79 year old guy a 45+ pound
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bike.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I run Schwalbe G one allrounds which for me are the sweet spot, ie fast
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough, grippy enough and durable enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My previous tires as I did experiment with number of tires over last few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years, where a touch puncture prone, and though road bike fast had naff all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> grip so you?d end up fishtailing up hills and having to be even more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> careful with body weight to get up said hills!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Schwalbe makes a tire (Durano?) that simply doesn't flat. I imagine that
>>>>>>>>>>>> it must ride badly but I've never seen one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, the durano is far from being a doesn't_go_flat tire. They're quite
>>>>>>>>>>> thin. I tried a set, got a flat, and wore them out pretty quickly.
>>>>>>>>>>> You're probably thinking of the Schwalbe Marathon Plus tire, which are
>>>>>>>>>>> pretty tough, ride very hard and slow, and are very hard to mount. I
>>>>>>>>>>> tries a set of them, too. One was so lumpy, out of round, I had to
>>>>>>>>>>> return it
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He?s sort of correct in that was/is a Durano plus ie road tire with the
>>>>>>>>>> plus rubber layer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In theory should ride ok, as ride quality seems to be sidewalls than
>>>>>>>>>> anything under the tread, apparently folks using foam liners claim bar
>>>>>>>>>> extra weight it?s unnoticeable.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed... I stand corrected.....The Durano Plus is new.. in fact it
>>>>>>>>> appears that the entire Durano series is new. They don't even make a
>>>>>>>>> Durano in either of my sizes any more...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No it’s a good 10 Years or more old? Can’t see it on the uk website but
>>>>>>>> they are moving stuff about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess I haven't been keeping up. My records show that I bought
>>>>>>> three Duranos (two 20," one 26") back in 2017. I believe they were
>>>>>>> 35mm. They were just plain "Duranos," no suffix. I was not impressed
>>>>>>> with the rolling resistance or the durability. I don't see those tires
>>>>>>> on the Schwalbe web site, but I note that they are listed as OEM on
>>>>>>> the Catrike 700.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't experiment with tires any more. I've done so in the past and
>>>>>>> got burned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sometimes you have to try before your sure, I’ve used a number of gravel
>>>>>> bike tires from cheap ie hybrid types with some decent knobs to light fast
>>>>>> stuff, have to find the one that fits as you where, done the same on the
>>>>>> MTB and indeed the commute bike, which I do generally just buy same again
>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Though is a One plus ie road tire clincher with plus layer so looks like it
>>>>>>>> might being discontinued.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One of the folks I know who is one of the high distance/speed type
>>>>>>>> commuters used them they broadly have same use case as Gatorskins.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For that use he liked them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> I looked up the rolling resistance of the Durano Plus. 16.5 watts - but
>>>>> everyone reports them to not get flats so I suppose over a long wearing
>>>>> period perhaps you save more time by not getting flats. I think that the
>>>>> Continental 4 Seasons is probably just as good and only has slightly
>>>>> lower rolling resistance but they felt really slow to me. I am beginning
>>>>> to get the idea that except for very special uses such as racing, the
>>>>> rolling resistance tests are useless.
>>>>>
>>>> I doubt even for that, that the drum tests are too simplistic a model
>>>> essentially.
>>>>
>>>> My experience is that within a type it’s very close. For example I run
>>>> Schwalbe G-one allround, I’ve used Michelin Power Gravel, panaracer gravel
>>>> king sk and some Pirelli cinturato H.
>>>>
>>>> All really close, and similar small knob gravel tires. Very little to split
>>>> them really. Pirelli is just faster but also less grip, though it’s the
>>>> grip or lack of that is more noticeable than the speed!
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> I suppose that in a CLASS of tires that the actual rolling resistance
>>> varies so little as to be unimportant. Michelin Power series seems very
>>> slow to me, like Continental 4 Seasons. I have always been surprised at
>>> how fact Michelin Pro4's feel, though I seldom find them for sale anymore.
>>>
>> The 4 seasons should feel a touch slower or be a touch slower than the
>> power or Pro4’s as it’s intended as durable tire like the Gatorskins but
>> faster.
>>
>> Speed is quite difficult to tell from feel, my gravel tires feel squishy
>> compared to road tires, but that doesn’t translate to that much speed loss
>> ie my relatively thin tired gravel bike doesn’t give much away to a road
>> bike, but has quite a different feel due to much lower pressures!
>
> In my experience the 4 Seasons is considerably slower than the
> Gatorskins. But I think that they have better traction but increased wear.
>