I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.

They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?

Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
>
> They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
>
> Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.

Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard.. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win. Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic. The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.

Lou

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 10:03:37 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> >
> > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> >
> > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that.. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win. Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic. The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
>
> Lou

As you say, it isn't that simple. Vindegaard dropped Pogachar the other day like a stone. If there were a longer distance to the line the time gap would have been a lot larger. This was a case where Pogacar wasn't ghosting Vindegaard. Jumbo-Visma is a LOT stronger team than UAE which is why Pogacar has been in the Jumbo-Visma line. So you have to use that to your advantage by putting UAE on the front and burning them up.

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> >
> > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> >
> > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that.. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.

I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.

> Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.

?
Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.

> The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.

Yes.

>
> Lou

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > >
> > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > >
> > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> ?
> Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> Yes.

I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.

On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > >
> > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > >
> > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT.. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > ?
> > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > Yes.
> I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.

That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.

Lou

On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > >
> > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > >
> > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > ?
> > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > > Yes.
> > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
>
> Lou

He was dead meat for Podacar but he had a huge lead. He took less time to recover than the time it took for Podacar to cross the line! Now that is fitness.

On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > >
> > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > >
> > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > ?
> > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > > Yes.
> > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
>
> Lou

One of the things I've noticed is that Pogacar is a sprinter and is light enough to do that on a steep climb. I expect Vindegaard to beat him up the long climbs of the Alpes and the Time Trials.

On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 4:48:29 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > > ?
> > > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > > > Yes.
> > > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> > That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
> >
> > Lou
> He was dead meat for Podacar but he had a huge lead. He took less time to recover than the time it took for Podacar to cross the line! Now that is fitness.

But were was Kwiatkowski today? To win a grand tour you have to be good the whole 3 weeks. That was an exciting stage today.

Lou

On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 4:48:29 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > > > ?
> > > > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > > > > Yes.
> > > > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> > > That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > He was dead meat for Podacar but he had a huge lead. He took less time to recover than the time it took for Podacar to cross the line! Now that is fitness.
> But were was Kwiatkowski today? To win a grand tour you have to be good the whole 3 weeks. That was an exciting stage today.
>
> Lou

I think that I heard he is 27 so it isn't as if he doesn't have time to learn.

On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 3:33:27 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 4:48:29 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > > > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > > > > ?
> > > > > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > > > > > Yes.
> > > > > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> > > > That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > He was dead meat for Podacar but he had a huge lead. He took less time to recover than the time it took for Podacar to cross the line! Now that is fitness.
> > But were was Kwiatkowski today? To win a grand tour you have to be good the whole 3 weeks. That was an exciting stage today.
> >
> > Lou
> I think that I heard he is 27 so it isn't as if he doesn't have time to learn.

No he is from 1990.

Lou

On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 10:53:45 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 3:33:27 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 4:48:29 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma....@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > > > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > > > > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > > > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > > > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > > > > > > Yes.
> > > > > > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> > > > > That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > He was dead meat for Podacar but he had a huge lead. He took less time to recover than the time it took for Podacar to cross the line! Now that is fitness.
> > > But were was Kwiatkowski today? To win a grand tour you have to be good the whole 3 weeks. That was an exciting stage today.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > I think that I heard he is 27 so it isn't as if he doesn't have time to learn.
> No he is from 1990.
>
> Lou

Good Lord, and all this time I could have sworn that he won a stage. How many stages have you won? Point being that he succeeded where others failed. We haven't seen Woods on the front after his win either.

On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 11:32:58 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 10:53:45 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 3:33:27 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 4:48:29 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma....@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > > > > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > > > > > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > > > > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > > > > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > > > > > > > Yes.
> > > > > > > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch.. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> > > > > > That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > He was dead meat for Podacar but he had a huge lead. He took less time to recover than the time it took for Podacar to cross the line! Now that is fitness.
> > > > But were was Kwiatkowski today? To win a grand tour you have to be good the whole 3 weeks. That was an exciting stage today.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > I think that I heard he is 27 so it isn't as if he doesn't have time to learn.
> > No he is from 1990.
> >
> > Lou
> Good Lord, and all this time I could have sworn that he won a stage. How many stages have you won? Point being that he succeeded where others failed.. We haven't seen Woods on the front after his win either.

You don't make sense. You were comparing Kwiatskoswski with Pogacar or Vingegaard and I was saying that Kwiatkowski is not a grand Tour winner; GC rider. Never was and never will be. That is another league. He is rider to support a potentional GC rider, a winner for classics, stage winner like he proved in the past and during this edition of the TdF. Please pay attention and don't ask stupid questions like 'how many stages did I won'.

Lou

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 1:07:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 11:32:58 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 10:53:45 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 3:33:27 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 4:48:29 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > > > > > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > > > > > > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > > > > > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > > > > > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > > > > > > > > Yes.
> > > > > > > > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> > > > > > > That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > He was dead meat for Podacar but he had a huge lead. He took less time to recover than the time it took for Podacar to cross the line! Now that is fitness.
> > > > > But were was Kwiatkowski today? To win a grand tour you have to be good the whole 3 weeks. That was an exciting stage today.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > I think that I heard he is 27 so it isn't as if he doesn't have time to learn.
> > > No he is from 1990.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Good Lord, and all this time I could have sworn that he won a stage. How many stages have you won? Point being that he succeeded where others failed. We haven't seen Woods on the front after his win either.
> You don't make sense. You were comparing Kwiatskoswski with Pogacar or Vingegaard and I was saying that Kwiatkowski is not a grand Tour winner; GC rider. Never was and never will be. That is another league. He is rider to support a potentional GC rider, a winner for classics, stage winner like he proved in the past and during this edition of the TdF. Please pay attention and don't ask stupid questions like 'how many stages did I won'.
>
> Lou

Lou, NO ONE is in the class of Vindegaard or Podacar except possibly Roglich. So what the hell are you talking about? How many stages has Wout Van Aart won and he is about as good as they come. EVERYONE is an "also ran" so why are you pretending that if you're not as good as Podecar that you're no good at all?

Sometimes I have to wonder where your arguments are coming from. You're all over the map from good sense to "what the hell?"

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 4:50:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 1:07:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 11:32:58 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 10:53:45 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 3:33:27 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 4:48:29 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > > > > > > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > > > > > > > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > > > > > > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > > > > > > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV..
> > > > > > > > > > Yes.
> > > > > > > > > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> > > > > > > > That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > He was dead meat for Podacar but he had a huge lead. He took less time to recover than the time it took for Podacar to cross the line! Now that is fitness.
> > > > > > But were was Kwiatkowski today? To win a grand tour you have to be good the whole 3 weeks. That was an exciting stage today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > I think that I heard he is 27 so it isn't as if he doesn't have time to learn.
> > > > No he is from 1990.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > Good Lord, and all this time I could have sworn that he won a stage. How many stages have you won? Point being that he succeeded where others failed. We haven't seen Woods on the front after his win either.
> > You don't make sense. You were comparing Kwiatskoswski with Pogacar or Vingegaard and I was saying that Kwiatkowski is not a grand Tour winner; GC rider. Never was and never will be. That is another league. He is rider to support a potentional GC rider, a winner for classics, stage winner like he proved in the past and during this edition of the TdF. Please pay attention and don't ask stupid questions like 'how many stages did I won'.
> >
> > Lou
> Lou, NO ONE is in the class of Vindegaard or Podacar except possibly Roglich. So what the hell are you talking about? How many stages has Wout Van Aart won and he is about as good as they come. EVERYONE is an "also ran" so why are you pretending that if you're not as good as Podecar that you're no good at all?
>
> Sometimes I have to wonder where your arguments are coming from. You're all over the map from good sense to "what the hell?"

Where did I say that 'if you're not as good as Pogacar that you're no good at all'? All I was saying that you have people for the GC and stage winners/classic riders and Kwiatkowski is not a GC rider. I respect/enjoy both types but after Kwiatkowski's stage win he could thake the 'day off' the next day and he did. A GC rider can't do that. I am not the one that is all over the place and I think you can't learn me anything about pro cycling, the riders, the tactics and used equipment. You proved that more than once. Have a nice day.

Lou

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 8:10:49 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 4:50:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 1:07:06 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 11:32:58 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 10:53:45 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 3:33:27 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 9:55:27 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 4:48:29 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 3:39:05 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 12:28:33 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 12:16:42 PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:03:37 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that Vindegaard made a very stupid tactical error taking the Yellow so early. He should have left it with Henley or let Pogacar have it. This would have put UAE on the front pulling the Peloton and Vindegaard sitting on Pogecar's wheel and wearing him out. Jumbo-Visma won last year by having superior team and superior tactics wearing Pogacar down.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > They still have the strongest team but their tactics were forced by ONE MAN into putting themselves in a losing position. Why do you suppose that they didn't learn from last year's tactics?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now the best thing possible would be to put UAE back into the defending position which they don't really have the team for. Let Pogacar pick up 20 seconds or so and ride his rear wheel.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Pfff if it were that simple. The past has proven that Pogaçar will beat Vingegaard in a 'sprint' uphill, so JV have to wear him out before that. That succeeded in the first mountain stage and they tried that again the day after. To their surprise Pogaçar was in a much better shape that day and they should realized that earlier so Vingegaard would not have ride in the wind after Wout van Aert and Sep Kuss dropped too early. They should have backed off earlier so Sep Kuss would have lasted longer. Yesterday they tried that again and overall Pogaçar was not better than Vingegaard but he has just a better punch at the end. Vingegaard did not suffer more or less in the wheel of Sep Kuss than Pogaçar in the wheel of Vingegaard. If I were JV I would set such a the pace so Kuss and Kelderman last longer in the final climb. Let see what happens in the Alpes and in the TT. I'm sure the best rider will win.
> > > > > > > > > > > I've been thinking that Vingo has been doing too much work. I think you're right, they need to control the pace a bit better and keep Kuss and Kelderman more fresh for the finish.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Tactics discussion of Chris Horner is all in hindsight. He won the Vuelta with a cowardly tactic.
> > > > > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > > > > > Call me partisan, but I didn't see it that way. He was patient, on the final mountain stage rode Nibali's wheel, then made the winning move up the Angliru. That's how you win - no cowardice there.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The current generation is much mor fun to watch. YYMV.
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes.
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know that I would say that they are more fun to watch. They are presently riding so hard ALL of the time that the only time a breakaway escapes is when they are purposely let go. Today our Polish friend rode like he really knew what he was doing. When he came over the line he hardly had to take a breather before the was giving interviews.
> > > > > > > > > That was a strange tactic of UAE today. The breakaway was 19 men and they worked very well together on the flats. Hard to control. Fun fact I once was in the wheel of Kwiakowski in a descent in Spain. I didn’t know at that moment but he was wearing a Sky team kit riding a Pinnarello so I looked it up on Strava afterwards.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > > > He was dead meat for Podacar but he had a huge lead. He took less time to recover than the time it took for Podacar to cross the line! Now that is fitness.
> > > > > > > But were was Kwiatkowski today? To win a grand tour you have to be good the whole 3 weeks. That was an exciting stage today.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lou
> > > > > > I think that I heard he is 27 so it isn't as if he doesn't have time to learn.
> > > > > No he is from 1990.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > Good Lord, and all this time I could have sworn that he won a stage.. How many stages have you won? Point being that he succeeded where others failed. We haven't seen Woods on the front after his win either.
> > > You don't make sense. You were comparing Kwiatskoswski with Pogacar or Vingegaard and I was saying that Kwiatkowski is not a grand Tour winner; GC rider. Never was and never will be. That is another league. He is rider to support a potentional GC rider, a winner for classics, stage winner like he proved in the past and during this edition of the TdF. Please pay attention and don't ask stupid questions like 'how many stages did I won'.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Lou, NO ONE is in the class of Vindegaard or Podacar except possibly Roglich. So what the hell are you talking about? How many stages has Wout Van Aart won and he is about as good as they come. EVERYONE is an "also ran" so why are you pretending that if you're not as good as Podecar that you're no good at all?
> >
> > Sometimes I have to wonder where your arguments are coming from. You're all over the map from good sense to "what the hell?"
> Where did I say that 'if you're not as good as Pogacar that you're no good at all'? All I was saying that you have people for the GC and stage winners/classic riders and Kwiatkowski is not a GC rider. I respect/enjoy both types but after Kwiatkowski's stage win he could thake the 'day off' the next day and he did. A GC rider can't do that. I am not the one that is all over the place and I think you can't learn me anything about pro cycling, the riders, the tactics and used equipment. You proved that more than once. Have a nice day.
>
> Lou
I am not trying to teach you anything. I'm trying to understand your statements. No one expects Kwiakowski or Woods or Henly to win the Tour. That certainly doesn't lessen their stage wins. Wout Pouls waited an entire career for a stage win. I feel very happy for him.