On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

> I've had a little experience
> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
> containers.

It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
carbon atom.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:20:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>> I've had a little experience
>> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
>> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
>> containers.
>
>It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
>carbon atom.

And... there is a lot of it around :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:20:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>> I've had a little experience
>> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
>> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
>> containers.

>It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
>carbon atom.

That won't work. The OH (hydroxyl radical or hydroxide ion) will
neither burn (oxidize) nor easily dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen
ions.

A hydrogen powered car works by generating electricity with a fuel
cell and use the generated electricity to charged a small EV (electric
vehicle) battery. The rest is a conventional EV car. It's much like
a gasoline engine plus battery hybrid, where the gasoline engine is
replaced by a fuel cell.

For a fuel cell to work, it needs hydrogen gas as fuel and oxygen gas
from the air. Hydroxide ions won't work because the bonding force
between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms is too great to dissociate and
break the hydrogen into protons and electrons, where the electrons
provide the charging current. Another way to look at it is that H2O
(water) is the waste product of the fuel cell after it has consumed
the hydrogen. It's generally not a great idea to feed the waste
products of a machine, back into that machine.

"How does a fuel cell work?"
<https://www.fuelcellenergy.com/blog/how-does-a-fuel-cell-work/>

"Fuel Cell Basics"
<https://www.fchea.org/fuelcells>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 5:56:51 AM UTC+2, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:20:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
> <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> >On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I've had a little experience
> >> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
> >> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
> >> containers.
>
> >It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
> >carbon atom.
> That won't work. The OH (hydroxyl radical or hydroxide ion) will
> neither burn (oxidize) nor easily dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen
> ions.
>
> A hydrogen powered car works by generating electricity with a fuel
> cell and use the generated electricity to charged a small EV (electric
> vehicle) battery. The rest is a conventional EV car. It's much like
> a gasoline engine plus battery hybrid, where the gasoline engine is
> replaced by a fuel cell.
>
> For a fuel cell to work, it needs hydrogen gas as fuel and oxygen gas
> from the air. Hydroxide ions won't work because the bonding force
> between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms is too great to dissociate and
> break the hydrogen into protons and electrons, where the electrons
> provide the charging current. Another way to look at it is that H2O
> (water) is the waste product of the fuel cell after it has consumed
> the hydrogen. It's generally not a great idea to feed the waste
> products of a machine, back into that machine.
>
> "How does a fuel cell work?"
> <https://www.fuelcellenergy.com/blog/how-does-a-fuel-cell-work/>
>
> "Fuel Cell Basics"
> <https://www.fchea.org/fuelcells>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

You need (clean) electricity to produce hydrogen, then you need a fuel cell to produce electricity to charge a battery. In my world that doesn't make sense for an EV that can be charged directly with the (clean) electricity already available in any house with the existing infrastructure. Does the fuel cell replaces a large part of the needed battery for an EV and is it worth the effort to solve the problem of hydrogen? It is all about the needed range/time needed to charge the bayttery. Needed range is for most people overrated and charge time still improves. What problems do we want to solve? Please don't let politicians make that decision.

Lou

On 7/16/2023 10:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:20:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
> <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've had a little experience
>>> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
>>> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
>>> containers.
>
>> It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
>> carbon atom.
>
> That won't work. The OH (hydroxyl radical or hydroxide ion) will
> neither burn (oxidize) nor easily dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen
> ions.
>
> A hydrogen powered car works by generating electricity with a fuel
> cell and use the generated electricity to charged a small EV (electric
> vehicle) battery. The rest is a conventional EV car. It's much like
> a gasoline engine plus battery hybrid, where the gasoline engine is
> replaced by a fuel cell.
>
> For a fuel cell to work, it needs hydrogen gas as fuel and oxygen gas
> from the air. Hydroxide ions won't work because the bonding force
> between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms is too great to dissociate and
> break the hydrogen into protons and electrons, where the electrons
> provide the charging current. Another way to look at it is that H2O
> (water) is the waste product of the fuel cell after it has consumed
> the hydrogen. It's generally not a great idea to feed the waste
> products of a machine, back into that machine.
>
> "How does a fuel cell work?"
> <https://www.fuelcellenergy.com/blog/how-does-a-fuel-cell-work/>
>
> "Fuel Cell Basics"
> <https://www.fchea.org/fuelcells>
>

Ms Beeson wrote, "hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
>> carbon atom.", not an hydroxyl. Hey there's a thought!

What if we tried a volatile hydrocarbon with a contained
ignition? That just might work!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 1:32:30 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/16/2023 10:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:20:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
> > <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've had a little experience
> >>> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
> >>> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
> >>> containers.
> >
> >> It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
> >> carbon atom.
> >
> > That won't work. The OH (hydroxyl radical or hydroxide ion) will
> > neither burn (oxidize) nor easily dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen
> > ions.
> >
> > A hydrogen powered car works by generating electricity with a fuel
> > cell and use the generated electricity to charged a small EV (electric
> > vehicle) battery. The rest is a conventional EV car. It's much like
> > a gasoline engine plus battery hybrid, where the gasoline engine is
> > replaced by a fuel cell.
> >
> > For a fuel cell to work, it needs hydrogen gas as fuel and oxygen gas
> > from the air. Hydroxide ions won't work because the bonding force
> > between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms is too great to dissociate and
> > break the hydrogen into protons and electrons, where the electrons
> > provide the charging current. Another way to look at it is that H2O
> > (water) is the waste product of the fuel cell after it has consumed
> > the hydrogen. It's generally not a great idea to feed the waste
> > products of a machine, back into that machine.
> >
> > "How does a fuel cell work?"
> > <https://www.fuelcellenergy.com/blog/how-does-a-fuel-cell-work/>
> >
> > "Fuel Cell Basics"
> > <https://www.fchea.org/fuelcells>
> >
> Ms Beeson wrote, "hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
> >> carbon atom.", not an hydroxyl. Hey there's a thought!
>
> What if we tried a volatile hydrocarbon with a contained
> ignition? That just might work!
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
Backyard steel smelters is the answer. -- Chairman Mao, Peking
Your average handyman can easily make a small nuclear fission motor scaled to automotive requirements. -- Alfred E Neumann, Boston
>

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 8:39:10 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 1:32:30 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 7/16/2023 10:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:20:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
> > > <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I've had a little experience
> > >>> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
> > >>> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
> > >>> containers.
> > >
> > >> It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
> > >> carbon atom.
> > >
> > > That won't work. The OH (hydroxyl radical or hydroxide ion) will
> > > neither burn (oxidize) nor easily dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen
> > > ions.
> > >
> > > A hydrogen powered car works by generating electricity with a fuel
> > > cell and use the generated electricity to charged a small EV (electric
> > > vehicle) battery. The rest is a conventional EV car. It's much like
> > > a gasoline engine plus battery hybrid, where the gasoline engine is
> > > replaced by a fuel cell.
> > >
> > > For a fuel cell to work, it needs hydrogen gas as fuel and oxygen gas
> > > from the air. Hydroxide ions won't work because the bonding force
> > > between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms is too great to dissociate and
> > > break the hydrogen into protons and electrons, where the electrons
> > > provide the charging current. Another way to look at it is that H2O
> > > (water) is the waste product of the fuel cell after it has consumed
> > > the hydrogen. It's generally not a great idea to feed the waste
> > > products of a machine, back into that machine.
> > >
> > > "How does a fuel cell work?"
> > > <https://www.fuelcellenergy.com/blog/how-does-a-fuel-cell-work/>
> > >
> > > "Fuel Cell Basics"
> > > <https://www.fchea.org/fuelcells>
> > >
> > Ms Beeson wrote, "hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
> > >> carbon atom.", not an hydroxyl. Hey there's a thought!
> >
> > What if we tried a volatile hydrocarbon with a contained
> > ignition? That just might work!
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> Backyard steel smelters is the answer. -- Chairman Mao, Peking
> Your average handyman can easily make a small nuclear fission motor scaled to automotive requirements. -- Alfred E Neumann, Boston
> >
+1

On 7/16/2023 10:20 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I've had a little experience
>> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
>> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
>> containers.
>
> It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
> carbon atom.

I store a lot of them attached two at a time to an oxygen atom.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 07:32:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/16/2023 10:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:20:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
>> <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've had a little experience
>>>> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
>>>> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
>>>> containers.
>>
>>> It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
>>> carbon atom.
>>
>> That won't work. The OH (hydroxyl radical or hydroxide ion) will
>> neither burn (oxidize) nor easily dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen
>> ions.
>>
>> A hydrogen powered car works by generating electricity with a fuel
>> cell and use the generated electricity to charged a small EV (electric
>> vehicle) battery. The rest is a conventional EV car. It's much like
>> a gasoline engine plus battery hybrid, where the gasoline engine is
>> replaced by a fuel cell.
>>
>> For a fuel cell to work, it needs hydrogen gas as fuel and oxygen gas
>> from the air. Hydroxide ions won't work because the bonding force
>> between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms is too great to dissociate and
>> break the hydrogen into protons and electrons, where the electrons
>> provide the charging current. Another way to look at it is that H2O
>> (water) is the waste product of the fuel cell after it has consumed
>> the hydrogen. It's generally not a great idea to feed the waste
>> products of a machine, back into that machine.
>>
>> "How does a fuel cell work?"
>> <https://www.fuelcellenergy.com/blog/how-does-a-fuel-cell-work/>
>>
>> "Fuel Cell Basics"
>> <https://www.fchea.org/fuelcells>

>Ms Beeson wrote, "hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
> >> carbon atom.", not an hydroxyl. Hey there's a thought!

Oops. My mistake and apologies. Also, remind me not to try doing
anything useful at 11pm.

Attaching a hydrogen atom to a carbon atom produces a hydrocarbon. To
release the energy, we typically combine hydrocarbons with oxygen,
which is commonly called "burning". To release the hydrogen from a
hydrocarbon molecule, it would likely require heating, which requires
additional energy. There's been considerable work done on chemical
storage of hydrogen:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage#Chemical_storage>
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/DOE_FCTO_hydrogen_storage_materials_capacity_chart.png>
The Wikipedia article lists a variety chemical combinations that will
store hydrogen. The compounds that most easily absorb hydrogen are
also those that are reluctant to later release the hydrogen.

Currently, a performance limiting factor on engine power is the rate
at which hydrogen gas can be forced through the fuel cell. Using a
slow process to release the hydrogen would probably result in
performance issues. Intermediate storage in a miniature hydrogen
liquification plant would solve this problem, but is probably beyond
today's technology.

Using adsorption, where the hydrogen is stored on the surface of some
material, instead of absorption, where it is stored in a bulk material
might work to increase the rate of hydrogen storage and desorption.
However, the surface area required might require a rather large
chemical reactor. Functional, but not very practical.

Currently, in hydrogen cars, the hydrogen is stored as a compressed
gas at 350 - 700 bar (5,000 - 10,000 psi). There's no chemical
conversion process involved in either filling the tank or extracting
the hydrogen fuel. That's about as simple as possible (unless you
want the engine to burn the hydrogen). Adding a carbon or other
carrier makes things not so simple. Note that compressing or
liquefying hydrogen leaves no waste and requires little cleaning,
while chemical storage is dirty and might require consumables which
could later become waste.

>What if we tried a volatile hydrocarbon with a contained
>ignition? That just might work!

You seem to be proposing a mobile refinery. Instead of belching
methane as a waste product, it would belch H20 (water) and carbon
soot, leaving only the hydrogen to power the fuel cell. I have some
ideas on how to make this work (molecular sieve) but I need to do some
math first. If it takes more energy to break apart the hydrocarbon
compounds and then the methane, than the energy produced by the
hydrogen fuel cell (which I think is likely), then it's not worth the
effort. It might be more efficient to burn the methane in an ICE
(internal combustion engine). We've had methane powered cars powered
by animal dropping in that past. The major limitation was that they
couldn't rapidly generate methane for acceleration and long distances.
Semi-functional and probably not practical.

Incidentally, I was watching a company in Canada that developed a
system for cracking methane from municipal dumps using the heat from
parabolic dish reflectors. The hydrogen produced was collected and
intended to power hydrogen cars. Several people calculated that it
was cheaper and more energy efficient to burn the methane in a
conventional car engine, than to power the car with a fuel cell. I
can dig out the paperwork if anyone is interested. Just because
something can be made to work, doesn't make it worthwhile.

Methinks designing a better and safe cryogenic tank for liquid
hydrogen would be more productive.

"Storing Hydrogen"
<https://energies.airliquide.com/resources-planet-hydrogen/how-hydrogen-stored>
"Hydrogen turns into a liquid when it is cooled to a temperature below
-252,87 °C. At -252.87°C and 1.013 bar, liquid hydrogen has a density
of close to 71 kg/m3. At this pressure, 5 kg of hydrogen can be stored
in a 75-liter tank."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 7/17/2023 12:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 07:32:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/16/2023 10:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:20:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
>>> <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've had a little experience
>>>>> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
>>>>> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
>>>>> containers.
>>>
>>>> It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
>>>> carbon atom.
>>>
>>> That won't work. The OH (hydroxyl radical or hydroxide ion) will
>>> neither burn (oxidize) nor easily dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen
>>> ions.
>>>
>>> A hydrogen powered car works by generating electricity with a fuel
>>> cell and use the generated electricity to charged a small EV (electric
>>> vehicle) battery. The rest is a conventional EV car. It's much like
>>> a gasoline engine plus battery hybrid, where the gasoline engine is
>>> replaced by a fuel cell.
>>>
>>> For a fuel cell to work, it needs hydrogen gas as fuel and oxygen gas
>>> from the air. Hydroxide ions won't work because the bonding force
>>> between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms is too great to dissociate and
>>> break the hydrogen into protons and electrons, where the electrons
>>> provide the charging current. Another way to look at it is that H2O
>>> (water) is the waste product of the fuel cell after it has consumed
>>> the hydrogen. It's generally not a great idea to feed the waste
>>> products of a machine, back into that machine.
>>>
>>> "How does a fuel cell work?"
>>> <https://www.fuelcellenergy.com/blog/how-does-a-fuel-cell-work/>
>>>
>>> "Fuel Cell Basics"
>>> <https://www.fchea.org/fuelcells>
>
>> Ms Beeson wrote, "hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
>>>> carbon atom.", not an hydroxyl. Hey there's a thought!
>
> Oops. My mistake and apologies. Also, remind me not to try doing
> anything useful at 11pm.
>
> Attaching a hydrogen atom to a carbon atom produces a hydrocarbon. To
> release the energy, we typically combine hydrocarbons with oxygen,
> which is commonly called "burning". To release the hydrogen from a
> hydrocarbon molecule, it would likely require heating, which requires
> additional energy. There's been considerable work done on chemical
> storage of hydrogen:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage#Chemical_storage>
> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/DOE_FCTO_hydrogen_storage_materials_capacity_chart.png>
> The Wikipedia article lists a variety chemical combinations that will
> store hydrogen. The compounds that most easily absorb hydrogen are
> also those that are reluctant to later release the hydrogen.
>
> Currently, a performance limiting factor on engine power is the rate
> at which hydrogen gas can be forced through the fuel cell. Using a
> slow process to release the hydrogen would probably result in
> performance issues. Intermediate storage in a miniature hydrogen
> liquification plant would solve this problem, but is probably beyond
> today's technology.
>
> Using adsorption, where the hydrogen is stored on the surface of some
> material, instead of absorption, where it is stored in a bulk material
> might work to increase the rate of hydrogen storage and desorption.
> However, the surface area required might require a rather large
> chemical reactor. Functional, but not very practical.
>
> Currently, in hydrogen cars, the hydrogen is stored as a compressed
> gas at 350 - 700 bar (5,000 - 10,000 psi). There's no chemical
> conversion process involved in either filling the tank or extracting
> the hydrogen fuel. That's about as simple as possible (unless you
> want the engine to burn the hydrogen). Adding a carbon or other
> carrier makes things not so simple. Note that compressing or
> liquefying hydrogen leaves no waste and requires little cleaning,
> while chemical storage is dirty and might require consumables which
> could later become waste.
>
>> What if we tried a volatile hydrocarbon with a contained
>> ignition? That just might work!
>
> You seem to be proposing a mobile refinery. Instead of belching
> methane as a waste product, it would belch H20 (water) and carbon
> soot, leaving only the hydrogen to power the fuel cell. I have some
> ideas on how to make this work (molecular sieve) but I need to do some
> math first. If it takes more energy to break apart the hydrocarbon
> compounds and then the methane, than the energy produced by the
> hydrogen fuel cell (which I think is likely), then it's not worth the
> effort. It might be more efficient to burn the methane in an ICE
> (internal combustion engine). We've had methane powered cars powered
> by animal dropping in that past. The major limitation was that they
> couldn't rapidly generate methane for acceleration and long distances.
> Semi-functional and probably not practical.
>
> Incidentally, I was watching a company in Canada that developed a
> system for cracking methane from municipal dumps using the heat from
> parabolic dish reflectors. The hydrogen produced was collected and
> intended to power hydrogen cars. Several people calculated that it
> was cheaper and more energy efficient to burn the methane in a
> conventional car engine, than to power the car with a fuel cell. I
> can dig out the paperwork if anyone is interested. Just because
> something can be made to work, doesn't make it worthwhile.
>
> Methinks designing a better and safe cryogenic tank for liquid
> hydrogen would be more productive.
>
> "Storing Hydrogen"
> <https://energies.airliquide.com/resources-planet-hydrogen/how-hydrogen-stored>
> "Hydrogen turns into a liquid when it is cooled to a temperature below
> -252,87 °C. At -252.87°C and 1.013 bar, liquid hydrogen has a density
> of close to 71 kg/m3. At this pressure, 5 kg of hydrogen can be stored
> in a 75-liter tank."
>
>

Nope. I was thinking we might use existing plentiful
volatile hydrocarbons, maybe refining them for optimal
density, in a contained ignition device.

You mentioned this would 'probably require heating' but the
same effect can be attained with changing pressure instead.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/88T8m4c7BxA/maxresdefault.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 10:29:44 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/17/2023 12:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 07:32:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/16/2023 10:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 22:20:24 -0400, Joy Beeson
> >>> <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 09:50:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I've had a little experience
> >>>>> handling hydrogen gas. It will leak through most any seal. If one
> >>>>> build a proper seal, the gas will diffuse though steel and plastic
> >>>>> containers.
> >>>
> >>>> It's fairly easy to contain a hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
> >>>> carbon atom.
> >>>
> >>> That won't work. The OH (hydroxyl radical or hydroxide ion) will
> >>> neither burn (oxidize) nor easily dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen
> >>> ions.
> >>>
> >>> A hydrogen powered car works by generating electricity with a fuel
> >>> cell and use the generated electricity to charged a small EV (electric
> >>> vehicle) battery. The rest is a conventional EV car. It's much like
> >>> a gasoline engine plus battery hybrid, where the gasoline engine is
> >>> replaced by a fuel cell.
> >>>
> >>> For a fuel cell to work, it needs hydrogen gas as fuel and oxygen gas
> >>> from the air. Hydroxide ions won't work because the bonding force
> >>> between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms is too great to dissociate and
> >>> break the hydrogen into protons and electrons, where the electrons
> >>> provide the charging current. Another way to look at it is that H2O
> >>> (water) is the waste product of the fuel cell after it has consumed
> >>> the hydrogen. It's generally not a great idea to feed the waste
> >>> products of a machine, back into that machine.
> >>>
> >>> "How does a fuel cell work?"
> >>> <https://www.fuelcellenergy.com/blog/how-does-a-fuel-cell-work/>
> >>>
> >>> "Fuel Cell Basics"
> >>> <https://www.fchea.org/fuelcells>
> >
> >> Ms Beeson wrote, "hydrogen atom if you attach it to a
> >>>> carbon atom.", not an hydroxyl. Hey there's a thought!
> >
> > Oops. My mistake and apologies. Also, remind me not to try doing
> > anything useful at 11pm.
> >
> > Attaching a hydrogen atom to a carbon atom produces a hydrocarbon. To
> > release the energy, we typically combine hydrocarbons with oxygen,
> > which is commonly called "burning". To release the hydrogen from a
> > hydrocarbon molecule, it would likely require heating, which requires
> > additional energy. There's been considerable work done on chemical
> > storage of hydrogen:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage#Chemical_storage>
> > <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/DOE_FCTO_hydrogen_storage_materials_capacity_chart.png>
> > The Wikipedia article lists a variety chemical combinations that will
> > store hydrogen. The compounds that most easily absorb hydrogen are
> > also those that are reluctant to later release the hydrogen.
> >
> > Currently, a performance limiting factor on engine power is the rate
> > at which hydrogen gas can be forced through the fuel cell. Using a
> > slow process to release the hydrogen would probably result in
> > performance issues. Intermediate storage in a miniature hydrogen
> > liquification plant would solve this problem, but is probably beyond
> > today's technology.
> >
> > Using adsorption, where the hydrogen is stored on the surface of some
> > material, instead of absorption, where it is stored in a bulk material
> > might work to increase the rate of hydrogen storage and desorption.
> > However, the surface area required might require a rather large
> > chemical reactor. Functional, but not very practical.
> >
> > Currently, in hydrogen cars, the hydrogen is stored as a compressed
> > gas at 350 - 700 bar (5,000 - 10,000 psi). There's no chemical
> > conversion process involved in either filling the tank or extracting
> > the hydrogen fuel. That's about as simple as possible (unless you
> > want the engine to burn the hydrogen). Adding a carbon or other
> > carrier makes things not so simple. Note that compressing or
> > liquefying hydrogen leaves no waste and requires little cleaning,
> > while chemical storage is dirty and might require consumables which
> > could later become waste.
> >
> >> What if we tried a volatile hydrocarbon with a contained
> >> ignition? That just might work!
> >
> > You seem to be proposing a mobile refinery. Instead of belching
> > methane as a waste product, it would belch H20 (water) and carbon
> > soot, leaving only the hydrogen to power the fuel cell. I have some
> > ideas on how to make this work (molecular sieve) but I need to do some
> > math first. If it takes more energy to break apart the hydrocarbon
> > compounds and then the methane, than the energy produced by the
> > hydrogen fuel cell (which I think is likely), then it's not worth the
> > effort. It might be more efficient to burn the methane in an ICE
> > (internal combustion engine). We've had methane powered cars powered
> > by animal dropping in that past. The major limitation was that they
> > couldn't rapidly generate methane for acceleration and long distances.
> > Semi-functional and probably not practical.
> >
> > Incidentally, I was watching a company in Canada that developed a
> > system for cracking methane from municipal dumps using the heat from
> > parabolic dish reflectors. The hydrogen produced was collected and
> > intended to power hydrogen cars. Several people calculated that it
> > was cheaper and more energy efficient to burn the methane in a
> > conventional car engine, than to power the car with a fuel cell. I
> > can dig out the paperwork if anyone is interested. Just because
> > something can be made to work, doesn't make it worthwhile.
> >
> > Methinks designing a better and safe cryogenic tank for liquid
> > hydrogen would be more productive.
> >
> > "Storing Hydrogen"
> > <https://energies.airliquide.com/resources-planet-hydrogen/how-hydrogen-stored>
> > "Hydrogen turns into a liquid when it is cooled to a temperature below
> > -252,87 °C. At -252.87°C and 1.013 bar, liquid hydrogen has a density
> > of close to 71 kg/m3. At this pressure, 5 kg of hydrogen can be stored
> > in a 75-liter tank."
> >
> >
> Nope. I was thinking we might use existing plentiful
> volatile hydrocarbons, maybe refining them for optimal
> density, in a contained ignition device.
>
> You mentioned this would 'probably require heating' but the
> same effect can be attained with changing pressure instead.
>
> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/88T8m4c7BxA/maxresdefault.jpg
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

The one outstanding advantage of electric cars is the great reduction in moving/wearing parts. The bearings wear. And the brakes pads and disks wear a great deal less than in ICE cars because of regenerative braking. That is only 60 to 70% effective but that means 60 to 70% less wear on the brakes. I was not pro-electric car until Toyota's announcement of their R&D into solid state batteries.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/toyotas-solid-state-batteries-will-offer-a-range-of-745-miles-and-charge-in-under-10-minutes/ar-AA1dWtlc