Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Jan Frank wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Jan Frank wrote:
>>
>>>> No. It does not REDUCE the phase noise. Each oscillator has
>>>> it's own phase noise which is not affected by the zdncpfd. It
>>>> merely decouples one from the other.
>>>
>>> It isn't your magic thing that does the reducing, it's the
>>> divider, silly.
>> It has nothing to do with the divider.
>
> My thought experiment has everything to do with the divider, because
> it shows that your scheme

> (however good it may be at reducing the phase detector jitter) cannot
> do as you claim.

> If you can multiply without incurring the 20 log N penalty, then by
> the well known properties of dividers, you can divide it down and get
> something 20 log N decibels quieter than the signal you started
> with.
>
>> It is the phase detector. You can lock two 10MHz signals together,
>> such as a Rubidium and an OCXO and it works the same.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

(Added a bit of clarification--the phase detector gizmo probably works
great, but it can't avoid the 20 log N.)

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Jan Frank wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Jan Frank wrote:
>>
>>>> No. It does not REDUCE the phase noise. Each oscillator has it's own
>>>> phase noise which is not affected by the zdncpfd. It merely decouples
>>>> one from the other.
>>>
>>> It isn't your magic thing that does the reducing, it's the divider,
>>> silly.
>>
>> It has nothing to do with the divider.
>
> My thought experiment has everything to do with the divider, because it
> shows that your scheme is impossible even in principle. If you can
> multiply without incurring the 20 log N penalty, then by the well known
> properties of dividers, you can divide it down and get something 20 log
> N decibels quieter than the signal you started with.

The output is not the conventional linear pdf + and - pulses. The 20*log(N)
does not apply.

>> It is the phase detector. You can lock
>> two 10MHz signals together, such as a Rubidium and an OCXO and it works
>> the same.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

[...]

> (Added a bit of clarification--the phase detector gizmo probably works
> great, but it can't avoid the 20 log N.)
It can and does. It applies the technique used in the noise rejecting sampler
amplitude domain to the time domain. I searched for years to find a way to do
this, and finally found it.

As I stated, it is unlike any other pfd you have seen before.

On 04/01/2022 9:04 pm, Jan Frank wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> (Added a bit of clarification--the phase detector gizmo probably works
>> great, but it can't avoid the 20 log N.)
>
> It can and does. It applies the technique used in the noise rejecting sampler
> amplitude domain to the time domain. I searched for years to find a way to do
> this, and finally found it.
>
> As I stated, it is unlike any other pfd you have seen before.
>
>

Mention of amplitude domain makes me wonder if your development is
related to Pettigrew's amplitude locked loop?

piglet (who knows nothing about amplitude locked loops)

Jan Frank wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Jan Frank wrote:
>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jan Frank wrote:
>>>
>>>>> No. It does not REDUCE the phase noise. Each oscillator has it's own
>>>>> phase noise which is not affected by the zdncpfd. It merely decouples
>>>>> one from the other.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't your magic thing that does the reducing, it's the divider,
>>>> silly.
>>>
>>> It has nothing to do with the divider.
>>
>> My thought experiment has everything to do with the divider, because it
>> shows that your scheme is impossible even in principle. If you can
>> multiply without incurring the 20 log N penalty, then by the well known
>> properties of dividers, you can divide it down and get something 20 log
>> N decibels quieter than the signal you started with.
>
> The output is not the conventional linear pdf + and - pulses. The 20*log(N)
> does not apply.

No sort of phase detector--linear mixer, sampling, bang/bang, xor, you
name it--can get rid of the 20 log N, because it ain't the phase
detector that produces it. It's inherent to the multiplication process.

It's inherent in the frequency multiplication process.

>
>>> It is the phase detector. You can lock
>>> two 10MHz signals together, such as a Rubidium and an OCXO and it works
>>> the same.

Sure, because then 20 log N = 0.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On 4/1/22 1:58 pm, Jan Frank wrote:
> Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:
>
>> On 20/12/21 9:33 am, Jan Frank wrote:
>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> 1 PPS doesn't provide much information
>>
>>> The 10 MHz GPS clock is derived from the 1 PPS. I will use the phase of
>>> the WWVB carrier to compare against the GPS signal.
>>
>> The 1PPS is also derived by a PLL locked to the GPS signals, so you're
>> still dependent on the stability of the underlying VCO for low phase
>> noise. The GPS signal is well below the noise floor, so the PLL loop
>> filter is necessarily slow - meaning the VCO phase noise will probably
>> extend to sub-Hz frequencies before the GPS locking signal starts to
>> pull it in. The 10MHz output is no better, of course.
>>
>> Folk who are enthusiastic about their GPS disciplined 10MHz reference
>> source seem to mostly disregard these issues.
>>
>> Clifford Heath.
>
> You have got it backwards. The 1PPS is from the GPS signal. The 10MHz is
> from an OCXO locked to the 1PPS.

Ohai, Mike M aka Steve aka Jan. You don't need to change your USENET nym
to defeat Youtube, and I wish you wouldn't.

> This is where most people go wrong. There is 20ns to 50ns jitter in the
> 1PPS signal. This is from the internal clock in the GPS receiver that
> decodes the GPS signal and issues the 1PPS pulse. It knows how much error
> there is between the GPS time and when it is going to issue the 1PPS pulse.

"it knows how much error... and when it is going to issue" means it's
making a prediction. The prediction must be continually corrected, and
that requires some kind of LPF doesn't it? So the 1PPS is effectively a
PLL locked to the 1PPS from the GPS signal, as I said. I didn't mention
the 10MHz signal.

Cheers,

Clifford Heath

On a sunny day (Tue, 4 Jan 2022 15:25:06 -0500) it happened Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in
<bbcf2d8f-003e-d901-5b25-f7115f9f6677@electrooptical.net>:

>Jan Frank wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Jan Frank wrote:
>>
>>>> No. It does not REDUCE the phase noise. Each oscillator has it's own
>>>> phase noise which is not affected by the zdncpfd. It merely decouples
>>>> one from the other.
>>>
>>> It isn't your magic thing that does the reducing, it's the divider,
>>> silly.
>>
>> It has nothing to do with the divider.
>
>My thought experiment has everything to do with the divider, because it
>shows that your scheme is impossible even in principle. If you can
>multiply without incurring the 20 log N penalty, then by the well known
>properties of dividers, you can divide it down and get something 20 log
>N decibels quieter than the signal you started with.

I cannot follow you there
sure the timeconstant in the PLL loop matters,
your oscillator can be super super quiet, low phase noise, but slowly steered to the exact frequency?

Or are we talking about different things?

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 04/01/2022 9:04 pm, Jan Frank wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> (Added a bit of clarification--the phase detector gizmo probably works
>>> great, but it can't avoid the 20 log N.)
>>
>> It can and does. It applies the technique used in the noise rejecting
>> sampler amplitude domain to the time domain. I searched for years to
>> find a way to do this, and finally found it.
>>
>> As I stated, it is unlike any other pfd you have seen before.
>>
>>
>
> Mention of amplitude domain makes me wonder if your development is
> related to Pettigrew's amplitude locked loop?
>
> piglet (who knows nothing about amplitude locked loops)

I found some links in google, but the articles were unintelligible. It has no
relation to my work.

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Jan Frank wrote:

[...]

>> The output is not the conventional linear pdf + and - pulses. The
>> 20*log(N) does not apply.
>
> No sort of phase detector--linear mixer, sampling, bang/bang, xor, you
> name it--can get rid of the 20 log N, because it ain't the phase
> detector that produces it. It's inherent to the multiplication process.

I keep telling you it is not linear and does not follow the same
limitations.

> It's inherent in the frequency multiplication process.

>>>> It is the phase detector. You can lock
>>>> two 10MHz signals together, such as a Rubidium and an OCXO and it
>>>> works the same.
> Sure, because then 20 log N = 0.

If you use a conventional pfd, the rubidium noise will transfer to the OCXO
since the pfd is linear. The 20*log(1) is meaningless here.

My detector is not linear and will not transfer the rubidium noise to the
OCXO. It will lock on frequency and phase, but the rubidium jitter will not
affect the OCXO.

Every case of locking one oscillator to another shows a shelf in the phase
noise where the jitter is inside the loop bandwidth. My detector eliminates
this shelf.

For example, you could lock a SAW oscillator at 1 GHZ to a crystal
oscillator at 1 MHz. Normally, the 20*log(N) would produce 60 dB of
degredation in the SAW phase noise.

My detector decouples the SAW from the crystal, and keeps the original SAW
phase noise.

similarly, you could lock a GUNN at 10GHz to a 1 MHz crystal. This would
normally produce 80 dB degredation in the GUNN phase noise, which is why
ultra pure oscillators running at as high a frequency are sought after. See
Wenzel 100Mhz ULN oscillators.

With my detector, this is no longer true. You can use any stable crystal to
achieve the same frequency stability without the additional noise due to
frequency multiplication.

Thanks for your comments. You are giving me excellent ammunition when it
comes to selling my detector to major companies in the low noise business.

> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

> On 4/1/22 1:58 pm, Jan Frank wrote:
>> Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/12/21 9:33 am, Jan Frank wrote:
>>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> 1 PPS doesn't provide much information
>>>
>>>> The 10 MHz GPS clock is derived from the 1 PPS. I will use the phase
>>>> of the WWVB carrier to compare against the GPS signal.
>>>
>>> The 1PPS is also derived by a PLL locked to the GPS signals, so you're
>>> still dependent on the stability of the underlying VCO for low phase
>>> noise. The GPS signal is well below the noise floor, so the PLL loop
>>> filter is necessarily slow - meaning the VCO phase noise will probably
>>> extend to sub-Hz frequencies before the GPS locking signal starts to
>>> pull it in. The 10MHz output is no better, of course.
>>>
>>> Folk who are enthusiastic about their GPS disciplined 10MHz reference
>>> source seem to mostly disregard these issues.
>>>
>>> Clifford Heath.
>>
>> You have got it backwards. The 1PPS is from the GPS signal. The 10MHz
>> is from an OCXO locked to the 1PPS.
>
> Ohai, Mike M aka Steve aka Jan. You don't need to change your USENET nym
> to defeat Youtube, and I wish you wouldn't.

Too bad.

>> This is where most people go wrong. There is 20ns to 50ns jitter in the
>> 1PPS signal. This is from the internal clock in the GPS receiver that
>> decodes the GPS signal and issues the 1PPS pulse. It knows how much
>> error there is between the GPS time and when it is going to issue the
>> 1PPS pulse.
>
> "it knows how much error... and when it is going to issue" means it's
> making a prediction. The prediction must be continually corrected, and
> that requires some kind of LPF doesn't it? So the 1PPS is effectively a
> PLL locked to the 1PPS from the GPS signal, as I said. I didn't mention
> the 10MHz signal.

No, you still don't understand. There is no locking of the 1PPS to GPS. You
can have multiple phase reversals as the receiver clock drifts high and
low. You can have hanging bridges, where the internal clock is temporarily
at the correct frequency, but the wrong phase.

See Tom Van Baak, Sawtooth and hanging bridges, timing stability at
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/MG1613S/

> Cheers,
>
> Clifford Heath
>

Am 04.01.22 um 14:00 schrieb Jan Frank:

> I have posted complete details of the noise rejecting sampler here. The
> zdncpfd is a combination of the sampler plus a very simple extension of the
> comventional pfd.

Google spends 0.7 seconds of its valuable search time
to return nothing but this conversation here and something
that seems to be a cash fraud page that Thunderbird does
not want to enter.

So much for complete details.

Gerhard

On a sunny day (Wed, 5 Jan 2022 10:32:03 +0100) it happened Gerhard Hoffmann
<dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote in <sr3oik$psk$1@solani.org>:

>Am 04.01.22 um 14:00 schrieb Jan Frank:
>
>> I have posted complete details of the noise rejecting sampler here. The
>> zdncpfd is a combination of the sampler plus a very simple extension of the
>> comventional pfd.
>
>Google spends 0.7 seconds of its valuable search time
>to return nothing but this conversation here and something
>that seems to be a cash fraud page that Thunderbird does
>not want to enter.
>
>So much for complete details.
>
>Gerhard

The only 'noise rejecting sampler' for a PLL I came up with years ago
was just a sample and hold on a square wave derived from the local oscillator.
If the sample pulse failed (due to dropouts in the medium)
then no wrong sample was taken,
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/fdc-2.jpg
was for a 5 1/4 inch floppy drive data decoder.
CD4046
Man that thing was good, you could slow down the flop with your hand and it would still read data without errors.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/z80/system14/diagrams/index.html

Am 05.01.22 um 09:25 schrieb Jan Frank:
> Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

> No, you still don't understand. There is no locking of the 1PPS to GPS. You

No, you still don't understand. There IS locking of the 1PPS to
GPS. That is its only purpose. The lock is a long term average,
in terms of hours. An integrating low pass filter IS needed.

> can have multiple phase reversals as the receiver clock drifts high and
> low. You can have hanging bridges, where the internal clock is temporarily
> at the correct frequency, but the wrong phase.
>
> See Tom Van Baak, Sawtooth and hanging bridges, timing stability at
> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/MG1613S/

I consider it fraudulent that you cite TvB's work as if it would
endorse your ideas.

In most GPS receivers the 1pps output is just a port bit of the
CPU. You can ask some receivers for an estimate of how wrong the
previous 1pps has been.

Single 1pps have no meaning other than an opportunity to
blinking a LED. It takes 1000s of them to have any significance.

Gerhard

Jan Frank wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Jan Frank wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> The output is not the conventional linear pdf + and - pulses. The
>>> 20*log(N) does not apply.
>>
>> No sort of phase detector--linear mixer, sampling, bang/bang, xor, you
>> name it--can get rid of the 20 log N, because it ain't the phase
>> detector that produces it. It's inherent to the multiplication process.
>
> I keep telling you it is not linear and does not follow the same
> limitations.
>
>> It's inherent in the frequency multiplication process.
>
>>>>> It is the phase detector. You can lock
>>>>> two 10MHz signals together, such as a Rubidium and an OCXO and it
>>>>> works the same.
>
>> Sure, because then 20 log N = 0.
>
> If you use a conventional pfd, the rubidium noise will transfer to the OCXO
> since the pfd is linear. The 20*log(1) is meaningless here.
>
> My detector is not linear and will not transfer the rubidium noise to the
> OCXO. It will lock on frequency and phase, but the rubidium jitter will not
> affect the OCXO.
>
> Every case of locking one oscillator to another shows a shelf in the phase
> noise where the jitter is inside the loop bandwidth. My detector eliminates
> this shelf.
>
> For example, you could lock a SAW oscillator at 1 GHZ to a crystal
> oscillator at 1 MHz. Normally, the 20*log(N) would produce 60 dB of
> degredation in the SAW phase noise.
>
> My detector decouples the SAW from the crystal, and keeps the original SAW
> phase noise.
>
> similarly, you could lock a GUNN at 10GHz to a 1 MHz crystal. This would
> normally produce 80 dB degredation in the GUNN phase noise, which is why
> ultra pure oscillators running at as high a frequency are sought after. See
> Wenzel 100Mhz ULN oscillators.
>
> With my detector, this is no longer true. You can use any stable crystal to
> achieve the same frequency stability without the additional noise due to
> frequency multiplication.
>
> Thanks for your comments. You are giving me excellent ammunition when it
> comes to selling my detector to major companies in the low noise business.

Good luck with that. They can mostly do math, I expect.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On 6/1/22 2:34 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Jan Frank wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Jan Frank wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> The output is not the conventional linear pdf + and - pulses. The
>>>> 20*log(N) does not apply.
>>>
>>> No sort of phase detector--linear mixer, sampling, bang/bang, xor, you
>>> name it--can get rid of the 20 log N, because it ain't the phase
>>> detector that produces it.  It's inherent to the multiplication process.
>>
>> I keep telling you it is not linear and does not follow the same
>> limitations.
>>
>>> It's inherent in the frequency multiplication process.
>>
>>>>>> It is the phase detector. You can lock
>>>>>> two 10MHz signals together, such as a Rubidium and an OCXO and it
>>>>>> works the same.
>>> Sure, because then 20 log N = 0.
>>
>> If you use a conventional pfd, the rubidium noise will transfer to the
>> OCXO
>> since the pfd is linear. The 20*log(1) is meaningless here.
>>
>> My detector is not linear and will not transfer the rubidium noise to the
>> OCXO. It will lock on frequency and phase, but the rubidium jitter
>> will not
>> affect the OCXO.
>>
>> Every case of locking one oscillator to another shows a shelf in the
>> phase
>> noise where the jitter is inside the loop bandwidth. My detector
>> eliminates
>> this shelf.
>>
>> For example, you could lock a SAW oscillator at 1 GHZ to a crystal
>> oscillator at 1 MHz. Normally, the 20*log(N) would produce 60 dB of
>> degredation in the SAW phase noise.
>>
>> My detector decouples the SAW from the crystal, and keeps the original
>> SAW
>> phase noise.
>>
>> similarly, you could lock a GUNN at 10GHz to a 1 MHz crystal. This would
>> normally produce 80 dB degredation in the GUNN phase noise, which is why
>> ultra pure oscillators running at as high a frequency are sought
>> after. See
>> Wenzel 100Mhz ULN oscillators.
>>
>> With my detector, this is no longer true. You can use any stable
>> crystal to
>> achieve the same frequency stability without the additional noise due to
>> frequency multiplication.
>>
>> Thanks for your comments. You are giving me excellent ammunition when it
>> comes to selling my detector to major companies in the low noise
>> business.
>
> Good luck with that.  They can mostly do math, I expect.

MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just search
his name along with "colloidal silver" for an example. I'm not surprised
he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of starting fights
he cannot win but will not admit defeat.

Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> wrote:

> Am 05.01.22 um 09:25 schrieb Jan Frank:
>> Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:
>
>> No, you still don't understand. There is no locking of the 1PPS to GPS.
>> You
>
> No, you still don't understand. There IS locking of the 1PPS to
> GPS. That is its only purpose. The lock is a long term average,
> in terms of hours. An integrating low pass filter IS needed.

There is no phase locking as in a pll. The internal crystal
oscillator drifts in frequency due to small temperature changes.

Since phase is the integral of frequency, this causes a ramp in
phase. The phase rolls over when it reaches 360 degrees, which
causes the sawtooth waveform in the 1 PPS.

The 1PPS is not locked to the GPS. The error is bounded by the
period of the internal crystal oscillator in the GPS receiver. Since
the oscillator drifts, the phase also changes. See

"Allan Deviations of Typical Clocks"

Quote: "An example of 1PPS sawtooth. This is a "hanging bridge" that
results when receiver's clock passes thru an integer Hz causing a
zero-beat. While this happens, the statistics of time-interval
averaging goes bad."

This is on page 12: https://www.cnssys.com/files/PTTI/PTTI_2006.pdf

Hanging bridges cause an indeterminant error in the phase of the 1PPS. You
normally have no way to detect this, but I show a simple method below.
>> can have multiple phase reversals as the receiver clock drifts high and
>> low. You can have hanging bridges, where the internal clock is
>> temporarily at the correct frequency, but the wrong phase.
>>
>> See Tom Van Baak, Sawtooth and hanging bridges, timing stability at
>> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/MG1613S/
>
> I consider it fraudulent that you cite TvB's work as if it would
> endorse your ideas.

Gerhard, I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion.
I am not using TvB's work to endorse my ideas. These are not my
ideas. They are TvB's. I got them from him.

I cited his page for clairification of their meaning. That is how
references are used. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as
you give credit. Which I did.

> In most GPS receivers the 1pps output is just a port bit of the
> CPU. You can ask some receivers for an estimate of how wrong the
> previous 1pps has been.

Yes. There is a very simple way to drive the error to zero using the
NMEA ZDA - Time and Data message. You can use the information to
adjust the internal crystal in the GPS receiver to the exact
frequency needed for zero beat. See "Allan Deviations of Typical
Clocks", cited above. There is usually no direct connection to
the oscillator, but there are very simple tricks to get around that.

Quote: ZDA - Time and Date

"NOTE: GPS time can be used as a time tag for the PPS output. The ZDA
sentence comes out 00-500 ms after the PPS."

"ZDA - SiRF Timing Message"

"Outputs the time associated with the current 1 PPS pulse. Each
message is output within a few hundred ms after the 1 PPS pulse is
output and tells the time of the pulse that just occurred."

https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/GPS/NMEA%20Reference%20Manual1.pdf

Here is an article that describes the ZDA message string and sample
C code to decode it:

https://resources.winsystems.com/software/nmea.pdf

Even with zero pps error, you still have to contend with the diurnal
phase shift, especially at sunrise and sunset.

> Single 1pps have no meaning other than an opportunity to
> blinking a LED. It takes 1000s of them to have any significance.

It takes around 10^4 pulses to get to 1e-12, depending on the
receiver. See

http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/3gps/gps-adev.gif
(another link to TvB)

> Gerhard

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Jan Frank wrote:

>> Thanks for your comments. You are giving me excellent ammunition when
>> it comes to selling my detector to major companies in the low noise
>> business.
>
> Good luck with that. They can mostly do math, I expect.

They also understand money. Improved performance leads directly to that.

> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

>> Good luck with that.  They can mostly do math, I expect.
>
> MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just search
> his name along with "colloidal silver" for an example. I'm not surprised
> he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of starting fights
> he cannot win but will not admit defeat.

LOL! I posted for a long time on the Yahoo colloidal silver page. It is
full of information on how to make and use colloidal silver. It was moved
to the google groups site when Yahoo terminated the forums. You can find it
at https://groups.google.com, but I haven't posted in years.

Instead of the conventional 3 nines, I use pure silver wire bent in a U-
shape. This avoids the concentration of ions at the sharp tips which leads
to the production of silver hydroxide, which is completely inert and of no
use.

I also use a constant current source to control the current. There is no
control with the 3 nines, which leads to runaway as the solution evolves.

I also use a completely different method of taking the silver ions. Instead
of drinking it, which produces silver chloride when it combines with the
hydrochloric acid in the stomach, I simply hold a mouthful for 15 minutes,
then spit it out. This produces a concentration of around 27 parts per
billion in the typical male, so there is no problem with producing silver
chloride when they contact the salt in the blood.

27 parts per billion is a very small amount, but it is all that is needed.
The silver ions provide the mineral needed by white blood cells to track
and destroy pathogens.

The result is no one who uses my method ever has colds or the flu again. I
haven't had a cold or flu in over 30 years. Shingles is killed in a day or
so, and herpes simplex (cold sores) drop off in about three days.

The silver ions are also useful in healing cuts and burns. I once received
a serious burn on my finger, which completely stripped off the skin down to
the fingernail.

I wrapped the finger in gauze, and kept it saturated with a silver ion
solution. Within a week or so, the wound was completely healed, with no
trace of a scar.

All along, I provided complete details, including descriptions and
schematics.

I also provided the equations for the electrolysis process for the first
time. This explained how the silver ions are released from the anode into
the solution, and why they combine with the hydroxyl ions formed at the
cathode to form silver hydroxide, AgOh. This is one of the least useful
substances on the planet and is to be avoided.

I explained how the concentration of ions combine in the Nernst Diffusion
layer, and how to swap the polarity of the current in the electrolysis
process to minimize it. This allows you to reach a concentration of around
18 ppm (parts per million) instead of the normal 4-5 ppm with the 3 nines.

I also showed how to use the Faraday equation to calculate the silver ion
concentration in the electrolysis process. Here it is:

; General Faraday Calculation For Metals
; This uses the equation solver written by Roger
Schlafly
; Roger Schlafly's files are available at:

;http://archives.math.utk.edu/software/msdos/miscellaneous/mrcry209/.html
; http://www.spinstop.com/roger/eureka.htm
; ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-
stuttgart.de/pdf/borland/Eureka_The_Solver_Owners_Handbook_1987.pdf

; The Faraday Constant gives the amount of charge needed to transfer
; one gram-equivalent of substance by electrolysis. It is 96,485.34
; Coulombs or 26.80 ampere-hours. This is the product of Avogadro's
; number and the charge of the electron.

; Constants

atomwt = metal ; valence

chromium = 51.9961 ; 6 ; atomic weight of chromium
copper = 63.546 ; 2 ; atomic weight of copper
lead = 207.2 ; 2 ; atomic weight of lead
silver = 107.868 ; 1 ; atomic weight of silver
zinc = 65.39 ; 2 ; atomic weight of zinc

faraday = 96485.34 ; Faraday constant

; Unit Conversions

coulombs = amp * seconds ; total number of Coulombs
ionsec = amp / (valence * 1.60217733e-19) ; ions per second
ionsnm2 = ionssqinsec / 6.45e14 ; ions per square nanometer per sec
ionssqinsec = ionsec / area ; ions per sq. in. per sec
mg = grams * 1000 ; convert milligrams to grams
ppb = ppm * 1e3 ; parts per billion
ppm = mg / litres ; 1 ppm is 1 milligram per litre
ppmpermin = ppm / minutes ; ppm per minute
ppt = ppm * 1e6 ; Parts Per Trillion, not Per Thousand
seconds = hours * 3600 ; brew time
seconds = minutes * 60 ; number of minutes
totnumions = ionsec * seconds ; total number of ions transferred
uasqin = (1e6 * amp) / area ; current density in uA per sq in

; Volume Conversions

cc = ml ; 1 cubic centimeter = 1 milliliter
litres = 0.946352946 * quart ; convert US quart to litres
litres = 3.785412 * usgallon ; convert US gallon to litres
litres = 4.546092 * cangallon ; convert Can gallon to litres
ml = litres * 1000 ; convert litres to millilitre
ounces = 33.8140227 * litres ; convert litres to ounces

; Equations

grams = (coulombs * atomwt) / (valence * faraday) ; Faraday Equation

; Brew Parameters

; hours = 22

amp = 300e-6 ; cell current
area = 20
hours = 1
metal = silver ; select metal to use
ml = 10 ; assume 10 cc in contact area
valence = 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the result. Note the values for uasqin, ppm and mg.

atomwt = +107.8680000000000 { = +26967 / 250 }
metal = +107.8680000000000 { = +26967 / 250 }
chromium = +51.9961000000000
copper = +63.5460000000000 { = +31773 / 500 }
lead = +207.2000000000000 { = +1036 / 5 }
silver = +107.8680000000000 { = +26967 / 250 }
zinc = +65.3900000000000 { = +6539 / 100 }
faraday = +96485.3400000000
coulombs = +1.080000000000000 { = +27 / 25 }
amp = +0.0003000000000000000 { = +3 / 10000 }
seconds = +3600.0000000000000
ionsec = +1.87245190892821E+15
valence = +1.0000000000000000
ionsnm2 = +0.14515131076963
ionssqinsec = +93622595446410.4
area = +20.000000000000000
mg = +1.20741078385587
grams = +0.00120741078385587
ppb = 1000*ppm
= +120741.078385587
ppm = 1.20741078385587/(3.785412*usgallon)
= +120.741078385587
litres = 3.785412*usgallon
= +0.010000000000000 { = +1 / 100 }
ppmpermin = 1.20741078385587/(0.946352946*quart)/minutes
= +2.012351306426
minutes = +60.000000000000000
ppt = 1000000*1.20741078385587/(0.946352946*quart)
= +120741078.385587
hours = +1.0000000000000000
totnumions = +6.74082687214155E+18
uasqin = +15.00000000000000
cc = +10.000000000000000
ml = +10.000000000000000
quart = 4.00000022824465*usgallon
= +0.010566882094326
usgallon = 1.20095038532133*cangallon
= +0.002641720372842
cangallon = +0.00219969151526190 { = +2500 / 1136523 }
ounces = 31.9999999982559*quart
= +0.33814022700000

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/silvercentral/message/765?l=1

I consider my contributions to the field very significant, and of interest
to anyone wishing to improve their health.

On 06/01/2022 09:34, Jan Frank wrote:
> Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:
>
>>> Good luck with that.  They can mostly do math, I expect.
>>
>> MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just search
>> his name along with "colloidal silver" for an example. I'm not surprised
>> he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of starting fights
>> he cannot win but will not admit defeat.
>
[snip]
> I consider my contributions to the field very significant, and of interest
> to anyone wishing to improve their health.

Or more likely turn their skin a curious shade of silver grey blue alien
colour as has happened to quite a few of the self medicating colloidal
silver fanatics (and also from industrial injury working with silver).
Argyria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria

Think delusional libertarian freak show...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Jones_(Libertarian_politician)

One odd side effect of the Y2k bug that didn't go away!

On the plus side it is nowhere near as harmful as self medicating with
Radium as was once popular in the USA. Promoted by Eben Byers.

https://historyofyesterday.com/eben-byers-the-man-who-drank-radioactive-water-until-his-jaw-fell-off-d2634336b504

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> On 06/01/2022 09:34, Jan Frank wrote:
>> Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Good luck with that.  They can mostly do math, I expect.
>>>
>>> MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just
>>> search his name along with "colloidal silver" for an example. I'm not
>>> surprised he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of
>>> starting fights he cannot win but will not admit defeat.
>>
> [snip]
>> I consider my contributions to the field very significant, and of
>> interest to anyone wishing to improve their health.
>
> Or more likely turn their skin a curious shade of silver grey blue alien
> colour as has happened to quite a few of the self medicating colloidal
> silver fanatics (and also from industrial injury working with silver).
> Argyria:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria
>
> Think delusional libertarian freak show...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Jones_(Libertarian_politician)

You have to drink huge amounts of badly made colloidal silver over a long
time to see any effect. Stan Jones drank cs made with sodium chloride for
ten years before he turned blue.

Using salt in the electrolysis process was originally recommended for the 3
nines process. It was quickly abandoned when it was found to have no
effect.

The next step was to eliminate the salt and use pure distilled water
instead of ordinary tap water. This produced solutions of 4-5 ppm and had
much better effect.

The method I recommend is to use a constant current source and alternate
the polarity every 15 minutes, with a 5 minute pause in between. I would be
happy to post the LTspice ASC and PRT files, and the Diptrace schematic and
pcb files if requested.

This produces about 18 ppm of silver ions, which is about the strongest you
can make at home.

The next step is to not drink it, which produces silver chloride when the
silver ions come in contact with the hydrochloric acid in your stomach.

Silver chloride is insoluble, and enters the blood stream after it passes
out of the stomach.

It then distributes throughout the body and builds up over time. This
produces the silver tint shown in various photos.

Instead, my recommendation is to hold a mouthful for abut 15 minutes, then
spit it out. This bypasses the formation of silver chloride in the stomach,
and the silver ions are absorbed sublingually.

The resulting ion concentration in the blood is around 27 ppb (parts per
billion). This is far too small to form silver chloride in the blood, but
it is more than enough to help the immune system find and destroy
pathogens.

I have not had a cold or flu in over 30 years. A shingles attack was
stopped in days. A herpes simplex (cold sores) was stopped in 3 days. Other
users report the same results.

A serious burn that stripped the skin of my finger was healed in a week or
so using silver ions in a gauze bandage.

Silver-impregnated bandages are used in hospitals to treat burn victims.
Silver sulphate bandages are another form that is also used.

These bandages rely on enzymes in the victims secretions to release silver
ions into the wound.

This is actually a very inefficient method of obtaining silver ions.

Saturating a gauze bandage is far more effective, but this would require
teaching doctors and nurses how to handle the solution and avoid
contamination, especially to avoid contact with salts. This is practically
impossible, so the current practise is probably best.

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

[...]

> MikeM has a very long history of chasing faeries and myths. Just search
> his name along with "colloidal silver" for an example. I'm not surprised
> he needs to nym-shift constantly, given his history of starting fights
> he cannot win but will not admit defeat.
I enjoy a good fight with intelligent and knowlegable people. You do not
qualify.

I am changing my nym again. I found that Arnie Dwyer is a much more
satisfying name, and I like it much better. I have tried it on Youtube and I
am very satisfied with the results. Here is a list of my previous nyms:

Mike Monett. This is my real name and the name on my patents. BTW, I got my
first patent at MIT. I doubt you even recognize the name.

Steve Wilson. I used this for a long time, but got sick of it.

Arnie Dwyer. This is my new nym. I will use it for future posts.