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tech / sci.physics.relativity / I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

SubjectAuthor
* I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity inRichard Hertz
+* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
| `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|  +- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |  +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPython
|   |  |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |  | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |  |  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   |  |   `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   |   `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |    `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   |     `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |      `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityKen Seto
|   |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityKen Seto
|   |  `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMisal Yamagata
|   +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   |+* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||+* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||| `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPaparios
|   |||  |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  | +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  | |`- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   |||  | +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
|   |||  | |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |||  | | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
|   |||  | |  `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |||  | +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityThe Starmaker
|   |||  | |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityThe Starmaker
|   |||  | | `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPaparios
|   |||  |  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  |   +- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  |   `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPaparios
|   |||  |    `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  |     `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityThe Starmaker
|   |||  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   |||   `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||    +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityThe Starmaker
|   |||    |`- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearJ. J. Lodder
|   |||    `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   || +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsThe Starmaker
|   || |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
|   || | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   || |  `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
|   || `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||  +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPython
|   ||  |`- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   ||  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   ||   `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||    `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   | +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   | |`- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   | `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
 +- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
 `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan

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I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2022 16:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in
110 years.
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Fri, 8 Apr 2022 23:36 UTC

It took me a while searching on the biased Google, so I turned to read the
historical comments of the most relevant relativists at this forum.

Based on their descriptions, many of which are backed by white papers, I've
composed the following short list.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

I know that I left out many others (not on purpose), but it serves as a guide
of the main contribution of both relativity theories to the development of
the modern civilization, in particular in the last 50 years.

Maybe any of you can help by adding more contributions that I might have
overlooked, due to the amount of achievements that had an impact on so
many fields in science, technology and economy.

I didn't include the definition of TIME as what my personal clock shows, as
it is a topic still under hot debate, in particular due to the increasing impact
of femtoseconds in our daily life.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<84f6eda9-e19b-4211-9fe9-5cd9b318caf5n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 07:03 UTC

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 8:36:26 PM UTC-3, Richard Hertz wrote:
> It took me a while searching on the biased Google, so I turned to read the
> historical comments of the most relevant relativists at this forum.
>
> Based on their descriptions, many of which are backed by white papers, I've
> composed the following short list.
>
> 1.
> 2.
> 3.
> 4.
> 5.
>
> I know that I left out many others (not on purpose), but it serves as a guide
> of the main contribution of both relativity theories to the development of
> the modern civilization, in particular in the last 50 years.
>
> Maybe any of you can help by adding more contributions that I might have
> overlooked, due to the amount of achievements that had an impact on so
> many fields in science, technology and economy.
>
> I didn't include the definition of TIME as what my personal clock shows, as
> it is a topic still under hot debate, in particular due to the increasing impact
> of femtoseconds in our daily life.

I'd like to add one more important gift that relativity gave to the modern world:

6.

There, now I'm satisfied with this half dozen of life-changing, world-shaping contributions of SR and GR.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: patdo...@comcast.net (patdolan)
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 by: patdolan - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 11:26 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 12:03:57 AM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote:
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 8:36:26 PM UTC-3, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > It took me a while searching on the biased Google, so I turned to read the
> > historical comments of the most relevant relativists at this forum.
> >
> > Based on their descriptions, many of which are backed by white papers, I've
> > composed the following short list.
> >
> > 1.
> > 2.
> > 3.
> > 4.
> > 5.
> >
> > I know that I left out many others (not on purpose), but it serves as a guide
> > of the main contribution of both relativity theories to the development of
> > the modern civilization, in particular in the last 50 years.
> >
> > Maybe any of you can help by adding more contributions that I might have
> > overlooked, due to the amount of achievements that had an impact on so
> > many fields in science, technology and economy.
> >
> > I didn't include the definition of TIME as what my personal clock shows, as
> > it is a topic still under hot debate, in particular due to the increasing impact
> > of femtoseconds in our daily life.
> I'd like to add one more important gift that relativity gave to the modern world:
>
> 6.
>
> There, now I'm satisfied with this half dozen of life-changing, world-shaping contributions of SR and GR.
Brilliant Richard, brilliant! I too have often wondered why relativity was developed in the first place. I have never understood Einstein's reason: to solve a mystery at the heart of electro-dynamics, i.e., the asymmetry of the moving loop and the stationary magnet qua the stationary loop and the moving magnet. There are far greater inconsistencies at the heart of relativity than there ever were at the heart of electrodynamics. That's why its creator never won a Nobel.

I believe relativity was the scientific establishment's contribution to the worldwide progressive movement sweeping the world in the late 1800s early 1900s. "Everything is Relative" went well with all the new thinking at the time. Relativity was the scientific analog of the Da-Da art movement--also a product of Germany. Einstein and his general theory were perfectly timed for a content-hungry news-reel industry which was also taking off at the time. That's why his fame is equal to Newton's. But Newton's theory of gravity can explain why a 1.0 kilogram mass exerts 9.81 Newtons of force on a tabletop. Einstein's theory of gravity can't.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: patdo...@comcast.net (patdolan)
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 by: patdolan - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 11:41 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 4:26:12 AM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 12:03:57 AM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 8:36:26 PM UTC-3, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > > It took me a while searching on the biased Google, so I turned to read the
> > > historical comments of the most relevant relativists at this forum.
> > >
> > > Based on their descriptions, many of which are backed by white papers, I've
> > > composed the following short list.
> > >
> > > 1.
> > > 2.
> > > 3.
> > > 4.
> > > 5.
> > >
> > > I know that I left out many others (not on purpose), but it serves as a guide
> > > of the main contribution of both relativity theories to the development of
> > > the modern civilization, in particular in the last 50 years.
> > >
> > > Maybe any of you can help by adding more contributions that I might have
> > > overlooked, due to the amount of achievements that had an impact on so
> > > many fields in science, technology and economy.
> > >
> > > I didn't include the definition of TIME as what my personal clock shows, as
> > > it is a topic still under hot debate, in particular due to the increasing impact
> > > of femtoseconds in our daily life.
> > I'd like to add one more important gift that relativity gave to the modern world:
> >
> > 6.
> >
> > There, now I'm satisfied with this half dozen of life-changing, world-shaping contributions of SR and GR.
> Brilliant Richard, brilliant! I too have often wondered why relativity was developed in the first place. I have never understood Einstein's reason: to solve a mystery at the heart of electro-dynamics, i.e., the asymmetry of the moving loop and the stationary magnet qua the stationary loop and the moving magnet. There are far greater inconsistencies at the heart of relativity than there ever were at the heart of electrodynamics. That's why its creator never won a Nobel.
>
> I believe relativity was the scientific establishment's contribution to the worldwide progressive movement sweeping the world in the late 1800s early 1900s. "Everything is Relative" went well with all the new thinking at the time. Relativity was the scientific analog of the Da-Da art movement--also a product of Germany. Einstein and his general theory were perfectly timed for a content-hungry news-reel industry which was also taking off at the time. That's why his fame is equal to Newton's. But Newton's theory of gravity can explain why a 1.0 kilogram mass exerts 9.81 Newtons of force on a tabletop. Einstein's theory of gravity can't.

I also note that for the first 20 years of the GPS's existence the GPS algorithms contained not one single hint of correction for either SR or GR effects. It wasn't until the early 2000s that Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups forced the Air Force to include GR and SR "correction factors" into those algorithms--factors that have no practical effect on the system. I found links to some of the early power point presentations to the Air Force as to why corrections should be made, and posted them in this forum. The Air Force, being a public funded entity, eventually complied with their request..

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 14:50 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 8:41:49 AM UTC-3, patdolan wrote:

<snip>

> I also note that for the first 20 years of the GPS's existence the GPS algorithms contained not one single hint of correction for either SR or GR effects. It wasn't until the early 2000s that Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups forced the Air Force to include GR and SR "correction factors" into those algorithms--factors that have no practical effect on the system. I found links to some of the early power point presentations to the Air Force as to why corrections should be made, and posted them in this forum. The Air Force, being a public funded entity, eventually complied with their request.

I know why GPS was pulled as the flagship of relativity at the end of XX century: PROPAGANDA.

It explains this Time Magazine cover, because narratives fail if not supported by heavy and constant brainwashing from MSM:

"Of the 100 chosen, Albert Einstein was chosen as the Person of the Century, on the grounds that he was the preeminent scientist in a century dominated by science."

http://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19991231,00.html

I thought that Hitler was the most influential person of the XX century, because his actions REALLY shaped the world since 1940,
after erasing half Europe, Northen Africa and Middle East, and defining the future of Asia. Bretton Woods, USD, IMF, UN, NATO, etc.

But it is just me.

Einstein was being propped by the same magazine as the man behind the atomic bomb, in his 1946 cover, but such prop failed. They
gave a new try 54 years after.

Do you see the atomic cloud with E=mc2 written on it? Nice PsyOp, isn't it?, even when it was scientifically rejected by Serber, second
in command behind Oppenheimer, on his 1992 booklet "Los Alamos Primer", which main content I introduced here a couple of times
in 2019, explaining the physics behind A-bomb as Serber taught in 1942.

http://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19460701,00.html

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<t2s90a$n5b$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 11:33:41 -0400
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 by: Michael Moroney - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 15:33 UTC

On 4/9/2022 7:41 AM, patdolan wrote:

> I also note that for the first 20 years of the GPS's existence the GPS algorithms contained not one single hint of correction for either SR or GR effects.

You "note" incorrectly. The GR correction is in the GPS specs from the
start. At the time of the launch of the first prototype GPS satellite,
there must have been some discussion whether GR effects were valid,
since the first GPS prototype bird had the ability to turn the GR clock
adjustment on or off. That is, select between a Cs clock divisor of
either 9,192,631,770 or 9,192,631,774.1 to generate all the signals
intended for earth reception. Using 9,192,631,770 meant the transmitted
frequency was the same as the received frequency, that is, no SR/GR
effects. Using 9,192,631,774.1 meant using the effects predicted by SR
and GR, and the transmitted frequencies were slightly below the received
frequencies. That is, a frequency transmitted at 10.22999999543 MHz was
received on earth at 10.23 MHz. The satellite was launched in 1979, the
switch was set to use 9,192,631,770 as the timebase divisor for 20 days.
Meaning the SR/GR predictions don't apply. The satellite didn't work
correctly, there was too much error. After 20 days, the switch was set
to use 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor, meaning SR/GR needed to be
accounted for, and then the system worked correctly. All further
satellites used 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor and none of them had any
such switch.

(insert response by Wozniak with the false claim the results are 180
degrees backwards from what they actually are here)

Since the GPS used SR/GR corrections from the start in 1979, claiming
the system didn't have any SR/GR corrections at all for 20 years is
false, and absurdly so.

> It wasn't until the early 2000s that Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups forced the Air Force to include GR and SR "correction factors" into those algorithms--factors that have no practical effect on the system.

Absurd claim, the system used SR/GR corrections from the start in 1979,
and there isn't any way to add such corrections later without having
effects on the system.

"Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups" sounds like paranoid conspiracy
theories to me.

> I found links to some of the early power point presentations to the Air Force as to why corrections should be made, and posted them in this forum. The Air Force, being a public funded entity, eventually complied with their request.

Absurd. The GPS used SR/GR corrections from its inception, other than
being initially disabled in the first prototype for 20 days.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: patdo...@comcast.net (patdolan)
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 by: patdolan - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 15:51 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 8:33:36 AM UTC-7, Michael Moroney wrote:
> On 4/9/2022 7:41 AM, patdolan wrote:
>
> > I also note that for the first 20 years of the GPS's existence the GPS algorithms contained not one single hint of correction for either SR or GR effects.
> You "note" incorrectly. The GR correction is in the GPS specs from the
> start. At the time of the launch of the first prototype GPS satellite,
> there must have been some discussion whether GR effects were valid,
> since the first GPS prototype bird had the ability to turn the GR clock
> adjustment on or off. That is, select between a Cs clock divisor of
> either 9,192,631,770 or 9,192,631,774.1 to generate all the signals
> intended for earth reception. Using 9,192,631,770 meant the transmitted
> frequency was the same as the received frequency, that is, no SR/GR
> effects. Using 9,192,631,774.1 meant using the effects predicted by SR
> and GR, and the transmitted frequencies were slightly below the received
> frequencies. That is, a frequency transmitted at 10.22999999543 MHz was
> received on earth at 10.23 MHz. The satellite was launched in 1979, the
> switch was set to use 9,192,631,770 as the timebase divisor for 20 days.
> Meaning the SR/GR predictions don't apply. The satellite didn't work
> correctly, there was too much error. After 20 days, the switch was set
> to use 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor, meaning SR/GR needed to be
> accounted for, and then the system worked correctly. All further
> satellites used 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor and none of them had any
> such switch.
>
> (insert response by Wozniak with the false claim the results are 180
> degrees backwards from what they actually are here)
>
> Since the GPS used SR/GR corrections from the start in 1979, claiming
> the system didn't have any SR/GR corrections at all for 20 years is
> false, and absurdly so.
> > It wasn't until the early 2000s that Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups forced the Air Force to include GR and SR "correction factors" into those algorithms--factors that have no practical effect on the system.
> Absurd claim, the system used SR/GR corrections from the start in 1979,
> and there isn't any way to add such corrections later without having
> effects on the system.
>
> "Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups" sounds like paranoid conspiracy
> theories to me.
> > I found links to some of the early power point presentations to the Air Force as to why corrections should be made, and posted them in this forum. The Air Force, being a public funded entity, eventually complied with their request.
> Absurd. The GPS used SR/GR corrections from its inception, other than
> being initially disabled in the first prototype for 20 days.
Cite/link the documents that prove this.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: setoke...@gmail.com (Ken Seto)
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 by: Ken Seto - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 15:58 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 11:33:36 AM UTC-4, Michael Moroney wrote:
> On 4/9/2022 7:41 AM, patdolan wrote:
>
> > I also note that for the first 20 years of the GPS's existence the GPS algorithms contained not one single hint of correction for either SR or GR effects.
> You "note" incorrectly. The GR correction is in the GPS specs from the
> start. At the time of the launch of the first prototype GPS satellite,
> there must have been some discussion whether GR effects were valid,
> since the first GPS prototype bird had the ability to turn the GR clock
> adjustment on or off. That is, select between a Cs clock divisor of
> either 9,192,631,770 or 9,192,631,774.1 to generate all the signals
> intended for earth reception. Using 9,192,631,770 meant the transmitted
> frequency was the same as the received frequency, that is, no SR/GR
> effects. Using 9,192,631,774.1 meant using the effects predicted by SR
> and GR, and the transmitted frequencies were slightly below the received
> frequeironment ncies. That is, a frequency transmitted at 10.22999999543 MHz was
> received on earth at 10.23 MHz. The satellite was launched in 1979, the
> switch was set to use 9,192,631,770 as the timebase divisor for 20 days.
> Meaning the SR/GR predictions don't apply. The satellite didn't work
> correctly, there was too much error. After 20 days, the switch was set
> to use 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor, meaning SR/GR needed to be
> accounted for, and then the system worked correctly. All further
> satellites used 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor and none of them had any
> such switch.

Stupid moron Mike.....that's because a clock second in a gravity environment contains a larger amount of absolute time. Gee you are so fucking backward.
>
> (insert response by Wozniak with the false claim the results are 180
> degrees backwards from what they actually are here)
>
> Since the GPS used SR/GR corrections from the start in 1979, claiming
> the system didn't have any SR/GR corrections at all for 20 years is
> false, and absumoron Mikerdly so.
> > It wasn't until the early 2000s that Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups forced the Air Force to include GR and SR "correction factors" into those algorithms--factors that have no practical effect on the system.
> Absurd claim, the system used SR/GR corrections from the start in 1979,
> and there isn't any way to add such corrections later without having
> effects on the system.
>
> "Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups" sounds like paranoid conspiracy
> theories to me.
> > I found links to some of the early power point presentations to the Air Force as to why corrections should be made, and posted them in this forum. The Air Force, being a public funded entity, eventually complied with their request.
> Absurd. The GPS used SR/GR corrections from its inception, other than
> being initially disabled in the first prototype for 20 days.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 16:15 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 12:33:36 PM UTC-3, Michael Moroney wrote:

<snip>

> You "note" incorrectly. The GR correction is in the GPS specs from the
> start. At the time of the launch of the first prototype GPS satellite,
> there must have been some discussion whether GR effects were valid,
> since the first GPS prototype bird had the ability to turn the GR clock
> adjustment on or off. That is, select between a Cs clock divisor of
> either 9,192,631,770 or 9,192,631,774.1 to generate all the signals
> intended for earth reception. Using 9,192,631,770 meant the transmitted
> frequency was the same as the received frequency, that is, no SR/GR
> effects. Using 9,192,631,774.1 meant using the effects predicted by SR
> and GR, and the transmitted frequencies were slightly below the received
> frequencies. That is, a frequency transmitted at 10.22999999543 MHz was
> received on earth at 10.23 MHz. The satellite was launched in 1979, the
> switch was set to use 9,192,631,770 as the timebase divisor for 20 days.
> Meaning the SR/GR predictions don't apply. The satellite didn't work
> correctly, there was too much error. After 20 days, the switch was set
> to use 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor, meaning SR/GR needed to be
> accounted for, and then the system worked correctly. All further
> satellites used 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor and none of them had any
> such switch.

<snip>

NO, failed EE!. That's NOT the way atomic clocks work!

Can't believe you didn't learn anything from previous threads in the last years!

There is not such thing as a 9,192,631,770 or 9,192,631,774.1 divisor.
What is phase locked is the main OCXO at 10.23 Mhz, using a negative feedback loop from 9.12 Ghz oscillations
at the Ramsay cavity, which are immediately transformed into audiofrequency signals right after the cavity.

Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
+/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.

It's the work of the slow time response box that FILTERS such audio signal to SLOWLY COMPENSATE the center
frequency of the 10.23 Mhz MASTER OSCILLATOR.

The OUTPUT of such oscillator is THEN multiplied up to 9.12 Ghz (MULTIPLIED, get this), in order to excite cesium atoms
at the Ramsay cavity. The output of photonic discharge of energy of those overexcited atoms is CENTERED around the nominal
frequency f0, and has a spectral distribution of gaussian type (mostly), with 1 SIGMA DEVIATION of around 150 Hz.

Atomic clocks provide PHASE LOCKING for the baseband 10.23 Mhz OCXO (in this case). It means that NO FREQUENCY LOCKING
exists between the 10.23 OCXO master oscillator and the 9.12 Ghz Ramsay cavity.

The sooner you learn it, ANIMAL, the better.

If there is a PLL synthesizer, it's working to provide an output at 10.23 Mhz with fine tuning capabilities, before such output is
upscaled to the Ghz range.

It's the same method applied to rubidium atomic clocks.

Stop behaving as a parrot, Moroney, and come to reason!!

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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From: bodkin...@gmail.com (Odd Bodkin)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of
relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 16:20:47 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Odd Bodkin - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 16:20 UTC

Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> wrote:
..
>
> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
>
>

You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?

Fantastic! Where is that evidence?

--
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: patdo...@comcast.net (patdolan)
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 by: patdolan - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 16:35 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 9:20:50 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> .
> >
> > Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
> > the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
> > +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
> >
> >
> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
>
> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
>
> --
> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
If an atomic clock can reliably detect a difference of 45 usec/day at an altitude of 20,000km then it should be able to reliably detect a difference of at least 45 usec/decade at an altitude of 4km (top of Mt. Rainier) when compared to sea level. Where is that evidence?

Just as in the case of the gravitational bending of starlight, the experimental results for gravitational time dilation does not exist.

Since the Mercury program, engineers have noted a speeding up of the onboard clocks of orbiting space vehicles by 30-40 usecs/day. But this is easily explained by the vanishing of mechanical forces on circuit components during free fall.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 17:11 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:20:50 PM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> .
> >
> > Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
> > the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
> > +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
> >
> >
> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
>
> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
>
> --
> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

One of many, many sources that explain how atomic clocks work, and how their "MW noise" has been reduced 100 times
in the last 40 years. Read it as a trained EE would, Bodkin.

Oh! wait. You are just a simple woodworker physicist wannabe.

Dependence of microwave-excitation signal parameters on frequency stability of caesium atomic clock
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283671528_Dependence_of_microwave-excitation_signal_parameters_on_frequency_stability_of_caesium_atomic_clock

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<t2sfup$2uj$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bodkin...@gmail.com (Odd Bodkin)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of
relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 17:32:10 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Odd Bodkin - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 17:32 UTC

patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 9:20:50 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
>>> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
>>> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
>>>
>>>
>> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
>> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
>>
>> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
>>
>> --
>> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
> If an atomic clock can reliably detect a difference of 45 usec/day at an
> altitude of 20,000km then it should be able to reliably detect a
> difference of at least 45 usec/decade at an altitude of 4km (top of Mt.
> Rainier) when compared to sea level. Where is that evidence?

Forget Mt. Rainier. This has been measured at a difference of elevation of
about a step ladder a few years ago.

>
> Just as in the case of the gravitational bending of starlight, the
> experimental results for gravitational time dilation does not exist.

Oh poor boy. So out of touch.

>
> Since the Mercury program, engineers have noted a speeding up of the
> onboard clocks of orbiting space vehicles by 30-40 usecs/day. But this
> is easily explained by the vanishing of mechanical forces on circuit
> components during free fall.
>

--
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 17:36 UTC

On Saturday, 9 April 2022 at 17:33:36 UTC+2, Michael Moroney wrote:
> On 4/9/2022 7:41 AM, patdolan wrote:
>
> > I also note that for the first 20 years of the GPS's existence the GPS algorithms contained not one single hint of correction for either SR or GR effects.
> You "note" incorrectly. The GR correction is

Is forbdden by your moronic postulate, by your moronic ISO
and by your idiot gurus; and no surprise, since the clocks
with this correction indicate t'=t, just like all serious clocks
always did.

> adjustment on or off. That is, select between a Cs clock divisor of
> either 9,192,631,770 or 9,192,631,774.1 to generate all the signals
> intended for earth reception. Using 9,192,631,770 meant

the obedience to The Shit and its Holy ISO.

> effects. Using 9,192,631,774.1 meant

pissing at your Holiest Postulate, pissing at your ISO
idiocy and at the whole of your religion, supid Mike.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<6251D8F2.122A@ix.netcom.com>

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.
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 by: The Starmaker - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 19:05 UTC

Richard Hertz wrote:
>
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:20:50 PM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > .
> > >
> > > Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
> > > the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
> > > +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
> > >
> > >
> > You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
> > varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
> >
> > Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
> >
> > --
> > Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>
> One of many, many sources that explain how atomic clocks work, and how their "MW noise" has been reduced 100 times
> in the last 40 years. Read it as a trained EE would, Bodkin.
>
> Oh! wait. You are just a simple woodworker physicist wannabe.
>
> Dependence of microwave-excitation signal parameters on frequency stability of caesium atomic clock
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283671528_Dependence_of_microwave-excitation_signal_parameters_on_frequency_stability_of_caesium_atomic_clock

According to Consumer Reports Magazine, today's atomic clocks would be off by just one second after 6 million years of use in the kitchen.

--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, and challenge
the unchallengeable.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: patdo...@comcast.net (patdolan)
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 by: patdolan - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 19:23 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> patdolan <patd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 9:20:50 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> .
> >>>
> >>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
> >>> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
> >>> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
> >> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
> >>
> >> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
> > If an atomic clock can reliably detect a difference of 45 usec/day at an
> > altitude of 20,000km then it should be able to reliably detect a
> > difference of at least 45 usec/decade at an altitude of 4km (top of Mt.
> > Rainier) when compared to sea level. Where is that evidence?
> Forget Mt. Rainier. This has been measured at a difference of elevation of
> about a step ladder a few years ago.

Link please.
> >
> > Just as in the case of the gravitational bending of starlight, the
> > experimental results for gravitational time dilation does not exist.
> Oh poor boy. So out of touch.
> >
> > Since the Mercury program, engineers have noted a speeding up of the
> > onboard clocks of orbiting space vehicles by 30-40 usecs/day. But this
> > is easily explained by the vanishing of mechanical forces on circuit
> > components during free fall.
> >
> --
> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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in 110 years.
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 by: Paparios - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 19:59 UTC

El sábado, 9 de abril de 2022 a las 15:23:08 UTC-4, patdolan escribió:
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Forget Mt. Rainier. This has been measured at a difference of elevation of
> > about a step ladder a few years ago.
> Link please.

C. W. Chou, D. B. Hume, T. Rosenband, D. J. Wineland (24 September 2010), "Optical clocks and relativity", Science, 329(5999): 1630–1633;

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: patdo...@comcast.net (patdolan)
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 by: patdolan - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 20:12 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 12:59:49 PM UTC-7, Paparios wrote:
> El sábado, 9 de abril de 2022 a las 15:23:08 UTC-4, patdolan escribió:
> > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Forget Mt. Rainier. This has been measured at a difference of elevation of
> > > about a step ladder a few years ago.
> > Link please.
> C. W. Chou, D. B. Hume, T. Rosenband, D. J. Wineland (24 September 2010), "Optical clocks and relativity", Science, 329(5999): 1630–1633;
Thank you Paparios. Now, and this is most important, please link us to anyone who has repeated this experiment from 12 years ago.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: patdo...@comcast.net (patdolan)
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 by: patdolan - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 20:25 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:12:13 PM UTC-7, patdolan wrote:
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 12:59:49 PM UTC-7, Paparios wrote:
> > El sábado, 9 de abril de 2022 a las 15:23:08 UTC-4, patdolan escribió:
> > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > > Forget Mt. Rainier. This has been measured at a difference of elevation of
> > > > about a step ladder a few years ago.
> > > Link please.
> > C. W. Chou, D. B. Hume, T. Rosenband, D. J. Wineland (24 September 2010), "Optical clocks and relativity", Science, 329(5999): 1630–1633;
> Thank you Paparios. Now, and this is most important, please link us to anyone who has repeated this experiment from 12 years ago.

Never mind Papparios. I've found the related articles. It only takes a quick glance at the experimental set up to determine that they investigator were either measuring the temperature gradient of the fiber optic cable between its top and bottom, or the atmospheric pressure gradient acting on the fiber optic cable between top and bottom, or a combination of both.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<1pq5z89.17iblaa18izmt9N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 22:30:34 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 20:30 UTC

The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> Richard Hertz wrote:
> >
> > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:20:50 PM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > .
> > > >
> > > > Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
> > > > the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
> > > > +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
> > > varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
> > >
> > > Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Odd Bodkin ╉ Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
> >
> > One of many, many sources that explain how atomic clocks work, and how
> > their "MW noise" has been reduced 100 times in the last 40 years. Read
> > it as a trained EE would, Bodkin.
> >
> > Oh! wait. You are just a simple woodworker physicist wannabe.
> >
> > Dependence of microwave-excitation signal parameters on frequency
> > stability of caesium atomic clock
> > <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283671528_Dependence_of_microwave-
excitation_signal_parameters_on_frequency_stability_of_caesium_atomic_clock>
>
> According to Consumer Reports Magazine, today's atomic clocks would be off
> by just one second after 6 million years of use in the kitchen.

A conservative estimate, perhaps for commercial versions?
At about 30 million seconds/year
that is 1 second in 1.8 * 10^14 seconds.
The best atomic clocks are approaching stabilities of 10^-15.
But that is for a single cluster of clocks.
TAI is a weighted average of hundreds of such at standards labs,
so it is an order of magnitude better.

But the best frequency standards (strontium lattice clocks)
are approaching stabilities of 10^-18, so about one second
in the lifetime of the universe. (of about 13 billion years)

This is good enough to detect the gravitational frequency shift
corresponding to a few centimeters shift in altitude,

Jan

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<1pq619d.1868zn5c9lwozN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 22:37:48 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 20:37 UTC

patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 12:59:49 PM UTC-7, Paparios wrote:
> > El sábado, 9 de abril de 2022 a las 15:23:08 UTC-4, patdolan escribió:
> > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > > Forget Mt. Rainier. This has been measured at a difference of
> > > > elevation of about a step ladder a few years ago.
> > > Link please.
> > C. W. Chou, D. B. Hume, T. Rosenband, D. J. Wineland (24 September
> > 2010), "Optical clocks and relativity", Science, 329(5999): 1630–1633;
> >
> Thank you Paparios. Now, and this is most important, please link us to
> anyone who has repeated this experiment from 12 years ago.

Since then replicated many times, at many places,
and to far greater accuracy.
Measuring relativistic gravitational frequency shifts
has become everyday routine in the meantime,

Jan

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<t2ssfj$1ifi$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 17:06:05 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Michael Moroney - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 21:06 UTC

On 4/9/2022 11:51 AM, patdolan wrote:
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 8:33:36 AM UTC-7, Michael Moroney wrote:
>> On 4/9/2022 7:41 AM, patdolan wrote:
>>
>>> I also note that for the first 20 years of the GPS's existence the GPS algorithms contained not one single hint of correction for either SR or GR effects.
>> You "note" incorrectly. The GR correction is in the GPS specs from the
>> start. At the time of the launch of the first prototype GPS satellite,
>> there must have been some discussion whether GR effects were valid,
>> since the first GPS prototype bird had the ability to turn the GR clock
>> adjustment on or off. That is, select between a Cs clock divisor of
>> either 9,192,631,770 or 9,192,631,774.1 to generate all the signals
>> intended for earth reception. Using 9,192,631,770 meant the transmitted
>> frequency was the same as the received frequency, that is, no SR/GR
>> effects. Using 9,192,631,774.1 meant using the effects predicted by SR
>> and GR, and the transmitted frequencies were slightly below the received
>> frequencies. That is, a frequency transmitted at 10.22999999543 MHz was
>> received on earth at 10.23 MHz. The satellite was launched in 1979, the
>> switch was set to use 9,192,631,770 as the timebase divisor for 20 days.
>> Meaning the SR/GR predictions don't apply. The satellite didn't work
>> correctly, there was too much error. After 20 days, the switch was set
>> to use 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor, meaning SR/GR needed to be
>> accounted for, and then the system worked correctly. All further
>> satellites used 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor and none of them had any
>> such switch.
>>
>> (insert response by Wozniak with the false claim the results are 180
>> degrees backwards from what they actually are here)
>>
>> Since the GPS used SR/GR corrections from the start in 1979, claiming
>> the system didn't have any SR/GR corrections at all for 20 years is
>> false, and absurdly so.
>>> It wasn't until the early 2000s that Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups forced the Air Force to include GR and SR "correction factors" into those algorithms--factors that have no practical effect on the system.
>> Absurd claim, the system used SR/GR corrections from the start in 1979,
>> and there isn't any way to add such corrections later without having
>> effects on the system.
>>
>> "Einstein enthusiast lobbying groups" sounds like paranoid conspiracy
>> theories to me.
>>> I found links to some of the early power point presentations to the Air Force as to why corrections should be made, and posted them in this forum. The Air Force, being a public funded entity, eventually complied with their request.
>> Absurd. The GPS used SR/GR corrections from its inception, other than
>> being initially disabled in the first prototype for 20 days.
> Cite/link the documents that prove this.

http://www.leapsecond.com/history/Ashby-Relativity.htm
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA058591.pdf
https://www.artsjournal.com/artfulmanager/main/the-relativity-switch.php

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<t2ssj8$1ifi$2@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2022 17:08:03 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Michael Moroney - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 21:08 UTC

On 4/9/2022 11:58 AM, Ken Seto wrote:
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 11:33:36 AM UTC-4, Michael Moroney wrote:
>> On 4/9/2022 7:41 AM, patdolan wrote:
>>
>>> I also note that for the first 20 years of the GPS's existence the GPS algorithms contained not one single hint of correction for either SR or GR effects.
>> You "note" incorrectly. The GR correction is in the GPS specs from the
>> start. At the time of the launch of the first prototype GPS satellite,
>> there must have been some discussion whether GR effects were valid,
>> since the first GPS prototype bird had the ability to turn the GR clock
>> adjustment on or off. That is, select between a Cs clock divisor of
>> either 9,192,631,770 or 9,192,631,774.1 to generate all the signals
>> intended for earth reception. Using 9,192,631,770 meant the transmitted
>> frequency was the same as the received frequency, that is, no SR/GR
>> effects. Using 9,192,631,774.1 meant using the effects predicted by SR
>> and GR, and the transmitted frequencies were slightly below the received
>> frequeironment ncies. That is, a frequency transmitted at 10.22999999543 MHz was
>> received on earth at 10.23 MHz. The satellite was launched in 1979, the
>> switch was set to use 9,192,631,770 as the timebase divisor for 20 days.
>> Meaning the SR/GR predictions don't apply. The satellite didn't work
>> correctly, there was too much error. After 20 days, the switch was set
>> to use 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor, meaning SR/GR needed to be
>> accounted for, and then the system worked correctly. All further
>> satellites used 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor and none of them had any
>> such switch.
>
> Stupid moron Mike.....that's because a clock second in a gravity environment contains a larger amount of absolute time. Gee you are so fucking backward.
>>

Stupid Ken, we're discussing actual physics here, not Seto's
make-believe assertions. Run along now.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 21:11 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 5:30:37 PM UTC-3, J. J. Lodder wrote:

<snip>

> At about 30 million seconds/year that is 1 second in 1.8 * 10^14 seconds.
> The best atomic clocks are approaching stabilities of 10^-15.
> But that is for a single cluster of clocks.
> TAI is a weighted average of hundreds of such at standards labs, so it is an order of magnitude better.
>
> But the best frequency standards (strontium lattice clocks)
> are approaching stabilities of 10^-18, so about one second
> in the lifetime of the universe. (of about 13 billion years)
>
> This is good enough to detect the gravitational frequency shift corresponding to a few centimeters shift in altitude,
>
> Jan

This is a repost of an older one, about Germany's PTB going further than that.
It's from an old thread:

Einstein's doctrine for GR succeeded to be installed within the atom, in Germany.
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.physics.relativity/c/r25fp7Vjlhw/m/DJi1N5tJAwAJ

COPY POST from Richard Hertz, Oct 11, 2021, 2:10:26 AM

****************************************************
Relativists finally succeeded to introduce Einstein's 1911 proposal of gravity
affecting the behavior of electrons in atoms, forcing corrections on hyperfine
transitions within cesium atoms in atomic clocks. At least in Germany, and at
least theoretically.

--------------------- Excerpt from Einstein 1911 paper ------------------------------------
§ 3. Time and the Velocity of Light in the Gravitational Field

f the radiation emitted in the uniformly accelerated system K′ in S2 toward
S1 had the frequency f2 relative to the clock at S2, then, relative to S1, at
its arrival at S1 it no longer has the frequency f2 relative to an identical
clock at S1, but a greater frequency f1, such that, to a first approximation

(2) f1 = f2 . (1+γh/c²)
...............
(2a) f1 = f2 . (1+Φ/c²)

--------------------------------------------------- End of excerpt ------------------------------------

From (2a), is derived that Δf/f2 = Φ/c² = −G.Me/c². (1/Re - 1/Rs) , for gravitational shift,
which Einstein applied to his "light-generator".

The definition of a second, established (BIPM 1998) as the base unit of
time for the International System of Units (SI) is:

https://www.bipm.org/en/si-base-units/second
-------------------------------------------------
The second, symbol s, is the SI unit of time. It is defined by taking the
fixed numerical value of the caesium frequency Δν_Cs, the unperturbed
ground-state hyperfine transition frequency of the caesium-133 atom, to
be 9192631770 when expressed in the unit Hz, which is equal to 1/s.
--------------------------------------------------

This is very sub-atomic and specific, indeed.

Standard cesium clock has a typical relative frequency instability per day
about ± 10E-13, implying that it will keep time to within one second over
25,000 years. Improved versions of cesium fountain clock achieve, since
2011, accuracy within ± 10E-16. These new generation of Cs clocks can
last 25 million years before a second is lost (and life as we know is gone)..

Now, the funny part when it comes to worldwide timekeeping by national
agencies, like NIST or USNO (USA), PTB (Germany), OP (France), NICT (Japan),
SU (Russia), NTSC (China), etc. (all subrogated to BIMP), is that
keep the difference between the UTC (BIMP) below ± 10 nanoseconds.

However, as it's available at the German PTB site,

https://www.ptb.de/cms/en.html

TAI (Temps Atomique International), calculated by the International
Bureau for Weights and Measures (BIPM), as well as UTC (Coordinated
Universal Time), also kept as master source from BIPM, HAVE TO BE
ADJUSTED for Einstenian gravitational time dilatation.

This is because BIMP averages the time of about 400 atomic clocks from
50 different sites around the world, which are located at different heights
compared to the average ground level.

Excerpt from the German site:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Due to the relativistic time dilatation caused by the earth's gravitational potential, the SI second could
only be realised by atomic clocks at sea level if no corrections were applied.

In order to compensate for the gravitational time dilatation, the rates of atomic clocks
located at an altitude h above sea level are corrected by a relative amount of -1.09.10E-16 (h/m).

The PTB clocks for example are located at heights of h = 78 until 79 m
so that the relative rate correction is about -8.6.10E-15. This takes into
account that the atomic second intervals realised by the PTB clocks are
shorter by 8.6.10E-15 than the SI second produced by a caesium clock
located on the geoid.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, it doesn't matter that national timekeepers have best values for
differences around ± 10E-9 sec (at best) between them, or that best
values for national timekeeping accuracy/day are in the order of
± 10E-13 to ± 10E-16, which has a dispersion between 10,000:1 and
1,000,000:1 depending on how modern are their atomic clocks.

EVERY SINGLE atomic clock in the world SHOULD BE corrected by a
relative amount of -1.09.10E-16 (h/m), depending on the height above
the average ground level for the geode that Earth is.

Then, relativists have succeeded bringing GR within the atom, and the
genial Einstein predicted this by 1911, when nor he neither any other
physicist HAD A FVCKING IDEA of what an atom was and, much less,
about hyperfine transitions 30 years before even anyone started thinking
about them.

And, what is more RIDICULOUS, is that the effect is more than 10,000
below any perceived difference within atomic clocks that BIMP control.

I wonder why such level of corrections (1.09.10E-16 . h) are needed, and
how come a 110 crazy idea has entered into the quantum world officially.

If it's not to perpetuate Einstein's role in modern physics, I don't know
what it is. Any arbitrary perturbation of NATURE has a greater impact
that 10E-16 . h, even when sites that host atomic clocks are stabilized
for temperature, humidity and shielded against electromagnetic sources.

I bet that a fat man coming into any of those rooms influence the clocks
more than this. Not to mention earthquakes, continental drift, Moon's
erratic orbits, planet's alineation, Cosmic Radiation showers, magnetic poles shifting, etc.

Einsteinian apology at its best.
****************************************************

Paul Andersen went apeshit with this post, I remember. LOL LOL

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
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 by: The Starmaker - Sat, 9 Apr 2022 21:14 UTC

patdolan wrote:
>
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 12:59:49 PM UTC-7, Paparios wrote:
> > El sábado, 9 de abril de 2022 a las 15:23:08 UTC-4, patdolan escribió:
> > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > > Forget Mt. Rainier. This has been measured at a difference of elevation of
> > > > about a step ladder a few years ago.
> > > Link please.
> > C. W. Chou, D. B. Hume, T. Rosenband, D. J. Wineland (24 September 2010), "Optical clocks and relativity", Science, 329(5999): 1630–1633;
> Thank you Paparios. Now, and this is most important, please link us to anyone who has repeated this experiment from 12 years ago.

Patrick, you don't seem to understand how science Works...repeating an
experiment doesn't mean you'll get the same results (or any results).

'they' don't like anyone repeating their fraudlent experiments.

"repeating" is a myth.

HOW DARE YOU ASK FOR ...PROOF!

you wanna get somebody in trouble or sometin?

Have you any idea how many scientist have received hundreds of thousands
of dollars for ther fraudlent experiments????

you wanna git em in trouble?

--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
and challenge
the unchallengeable.

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