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tech / sci.physics.relativity / Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

SubjectAuthor
* I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity inRichard Hertz
+* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
| `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|  +- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |  +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPython
|   |  |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |  | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |  |  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   |  |   `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   |   `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |    `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   |     `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |      `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityKen Seto
|   |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityKen Seto
|   |  `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMisal Yamagata
|   +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   |+* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||+* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||| `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPaparios
|   |||  |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  | +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  | |`- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   |||  | +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
|   |||  | |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |||  | | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
|   |||  | |  `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   |||  | +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityThe Starmaker
|   |||  | |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityThe Starmaker
|   |||  | | `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPaparios
|   |||  |  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  |   +- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  |   `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPaparios
|   |||  |    `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||  |     `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityThe Starmaker
|   |||  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   |||   `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan
|   |||    +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityThe Starmaker
|   |||    |`- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearJ. J. Lodder
|   |||    `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   || +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsThe Starmaker
|   || |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
|   || | `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   || |  `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
|   || `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||  +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityPython
|   ||  |`- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   ||  `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   ||   `* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions ofOdd Bodkin
|   ||    `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   |`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   | +* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityRichard Hertz
|   | |`- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMichael Moroney
|   | `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
|   `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
`* Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 yearsJ. J. Lodder
 +- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativityMaciej Wozniak
 `- Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativitypatdolan

Pages:123
Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<t2tv40$1eja$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 02:57:15 -0400
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 by: Michael Moroney - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 06:57 UTC

On 4/10/2022 1:29 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 05:46:39 UTC+2, Michael Moroney wrote:
>
>> Now look up how many nanoseconds that "active steering" is. Compare
>> that figure to 38,000 nanosecond per day from GR compensation.
>
> Stupid Mike, your moronic Shit requires no compensation.
> According to it the clocks should be set to 9,192,631,770
> everywhere, for the glory of Giant Guru.

The Giant Guru Newton, of course. Newtonian physics has the time being
the same everywhere, t'=t, and would have all clocks in the universe
ticking in lockstep regardless of motion and regardless of gravitational
potential, and Newtonian time everywhere means set all Cs clocks to use
9,192,631,770 cycles to tick at 1 second anywhere in the universe.

Once again Woz gets it 180 degrees backwards.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<3407933b-11ca-4127-adc7-ed8d50612699n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 07:14 UTC

On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 08:57:07 UTC+2, Michael Moroney wrote:
> On 4/10/2022 1:29 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> > On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 05:46:39 UTC+2, Michael Moroney wrote:
> >
> >> Now look up how many nanoseconds that "active steering" is. Compare
> >> that figure to 38,000 nanosecond per day from GR compensation.
> >
> > Stupid Mike, your moronic Shit requires no compensation.
> > According to it the clocks should be set to 9,192,631,770
> > everywhere, for the glory of Giant Guru.
> The Giant Guru Newton, of course. Newtonian physics has the time being
> the same everywhere, t'=t, and would have all clocks in the universe
> ticking in lockstep regardless of motion and regardless of gravitational
> potential, and Newtonian time everywhere means set all Cs clocks to use
> 9,192,631,770 cycles to tick at 1 second anywhere in the universe.
>
> Once again Woz gets it 180 degrees backwards.

Of course not, stupid Mike. 9,192,631,770 everywhere
idiocy was invented in 1968 (afair) as a consequence
of The Shit of Giant Guru Einstein. It's a requirement
of Holy ISO, you know.

Once again Moron gets it 180 degrees backwards.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<29be31d6-92e6-4639-8803-4c5d6a53ba0fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 07:37 UTC

On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 09:14:06 UTC+2, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 08:57:07 UTC+2, Michael Moroney wrote:
> > On 4/10/2022 1:29 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 05:46:39 UTC+2, Michael Moroney wrote:
> > >
> > >> Now look up how many nanoseconds that "active steering" is. Compare
> > >> that figure to 38,000 nanosecond per day from GR compensation.
> > >
> > > Stupid Mike, your moronic Shit requires no compensation.
> > > According to it the clocks should be set to 9,192,631,770
> > > everywhere, for the glory of Giant Guru.
> > The Giant Guru Newton, of course. Newtonian physics has the time being
> > the same everywhere, t'=t, and would have all clocks in the universe
> > ticking in lockstep regardless of motion and regardless of gravitational
> > potential, and Newtonian time everywhere means set all Cs clocks to use
> > 9,192,631,770 cycles to tick at 1 second anywhere in the universe.
> >
> > Once again Woz gets it 180 degrees backwards.
> Of course not, stupid Mike. 9,192,631,770 everywhere
> idiocy was invented in 1968 (afair) as a consequence
> of The Shit of Giant Guru Einstein. It's a requirement
> of Holy ISO, you know.
>
> Once again Moron gets it 180 degrees backwards.

See, stupid Mike, Newtonian physics is assuming
absolute time; it means - if clocks desynchronize
they (at least one of them) require some compensation.
Your idiot guru has invented a relative, local time.
According to his moronic religion - if clocks
desynchronize it's fine, correct, proper.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<1pq6z2v.1h0vagp1jf992hN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 11:54:05 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 09:54 UTC

Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, 9 April 2022 at 22:37:52 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > Measuring relativistic gravitational frequency shifts
> > has become everyday routine in the meantime,
>
> A pity that according to your Shit and its Holiest
> Postulate the frequencies should be the same
> everywhere.

That's just your misunderstanding of it.
General relativity (and already Einstein in person)
predicts gravitational shifts in frequencies and clock rates,
and that is precisely what is observed.

Jan

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<1pq6zpd.jr21pobma01oN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 11:54:05 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 09:54 UTC

Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 5:30:37 PM UTC-3, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > At about 30 million seconds/year that is 1 second in 1.8 * 10^14 seconds.
> > The best atomic clocks are approaching stabilities of 10^-15.
> > But that is for a single cluster of clocks.
> > TAI is a weighted average of hundreds of such at standards labs, so it
> > is an order of magnitude better.
> >
> > But the best frequency standards (strontium lattice clocks)
> > are approaching stabilities of 10^-18, so about one second
> > in the lifetime of the universe. (of about 13 billion years)
> >
> > This is good enough to detect the gravitational frequency shift
> > corresponding to a few centimeters shift in altitude,
> >
> > Jan
>
> This is a repost of an older one, about Germany's PTB going further than that.
> It's from an old thread:
>
> Einstein's doctrine for GR succeeded to be installed within the atom, in
> Germany.
> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.physics.relativity/c/r25fp7Vjlhw/m/DJi1N5tJAwA
J >
> COPY POST from Richard Hertz, Oct 11, 2021, 2:10:26 AM
>
> ****************************************************
> Relativists finally succeeded to introduce Einstein's 1911 proposal of gravity
> affecting the behavior of electrons in atoms, forcing corrections on hyperfine
> transitions within cesium atoms in atomic clocks. At least in Germany, and at
> least theoretically.

[-] Nothing finally or theoretically or even German about it.
TAI (as corrected for general relativity) was defined in 1977.
It is the weighted average of atomic clocks in standard labs,
corrected for their rate differences caused by different heights
above the standard geoid, aka mean sea level.

It is, by treaty, computed and published by the BIPM.
Standards labs worldwide apply corrections to their clock readings
to bring them in line with TAI.

I really don't see what you are bothering about.
All this is bog standard time keeping practice,

Jan

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<1pq70it.ob9lq4glc9ogN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 11:54:06 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 09:54 UTC

The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> patdolan wrote:
> >
> > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 5:38:31 PM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > patdolan <patd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com:
> > > >> patdolan <patd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > >>> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 9:20:50 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com:
> > > >>>> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>> .
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine
> > > >>>>> transitions in the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within +/- 300
> > > >>>>> Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition
> > > >>>> in cesium varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> Odd Bodkin ╉ Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
> > > >>> If an atomic clock can reliably detect a difference of 45 usec/day
> > > >>> at an altitude of 20,000km then it should be able to reliably
> > > >>> detect a difference of at least 45 usec/decade at an altitude of
> > > >>> 4km (top of Mt. Rainier) when compared to sea level. Where is that
> > > >>> evidence?
> > > >> Forget Mt. Rainier. This has been measured at a difference of
> > > >> elevation of about a step ladder a few years ago.
> > > >
> > > > Link please.
> > > https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2010/09/nist-pair-aluminum-atomic-cl
ocks-reveal-einsteins-relativity-personal-scale
> > You're kidding, right Bodkin? This extract from your link is your
> > standard for disclosure of experimental results:
> >
> > "In one set of experiments, scientists raised one of the clocks by
> > jacking up the laser table to a height one-third of a meter (about a
> > foot) above the second clock. Sure enough, the higher clock ran at a
> > slightly faster rate than the lower clock, exactly as predicted."
> >
> > That's it, not a single numeral in the article.
>
>
> My head runs at a faster rate than my feet...

Certainly. And strontium atoms at the top of the lattice clock
run faster than those at the bottom.
A difference of one millimeter can be detected.

Space-time 'points' get smaller and smaller,

Jan

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<1pq70t2.6ep5w253hjm0N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 11:54:06 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 09:54 UTC

Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> wrote:

> It took me a while searching on the biased Google, so I turned to read the
> historical comments of the most relevant relativists at this forum.

There are no new contributions to relativity.
Everything is relativistic.
(except that measurement accuracy may be to low to detect it)

The only thing that would be news would be a falsification
of (general) relativity.

So go ahead, produce one, if you want people to listen,

Jan

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<t2uc5f$ho8$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bodkin...@gmail.com (Odd Bodkin)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of
relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 10:39:43 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Odd Bodkin - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 10:39 UTC

patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 5:38:31 PM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>> patdolan <patd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 10:32:16 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> patdolan <patd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 9:20:50 AM UTC-7, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
>>>>>>> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
>>>>>>> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
>>>>>> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>>>>> If an atomic clock can reliably detect a difference of 45 usec/day at an
>>>>> altitude of 20,000km then it should be able to reliably detect a
>>>>> difference of at least 45 usec/decade at an altitude of 4km (top of Mt.
>>>>> Rainier) when compared to sea level. Where is that evidence?
>>>> Forget Mt. Rainier. This has been measured at a difference of elevation of
>>>> about a step ladder a few years ago.
>>>
>>> Link please.
>> https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2010/09/nist-pair-aluminum-atomic-clocks-reveal-einsteins-relativity-personal-scale
> You're kidding, right Bodkin? This extract from your link is your
> standard for disclosure of experimental results:
>
> "In one set of experiments, scientists raised one of the clocks by
> jacking up the laser table to a height one-third of a meter (about a
> foot) above the second clock. Sure enough, the higher clock ran at a
> slightly faster rate than the lower clock, exactly as predicted."
>
> That's it, not a single numeral in the article.

See the reference in the article.

I used the version suitable for you.

>
>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just as in the case of the gravitational bending of starlight, the
>>>>> experimental results for gravitational time dilation does not exist.
>>>> Oh poor boy. So out of touch.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the Mercury program, engineers have noted a speeding up of the
>>>>> onboard clocks of orbiting space vehicles by 30-40 usecs/day. But this
>>>>> is easily explained by the vanishing of mechanical forces on circuit
>>>>> components during free fall.
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>>>
>> --
>> Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>

--
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 12:04 UTC

On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 11:54:07 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Maciej Wozniak <maluw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, 9 April 2022 at 22:37:52 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >
> > > Measuring relativistic gravitational frequency shifts
> > > has become everyday routine in the meantime,
> >
> > A pity that according to your Shit and its Holiest
> > Postulate the frequencies should be the same
> > everywhere.
> That's just your misunderstanding of it.
> General relativity (and already Einstein in person)
> predicts gravitational shifts in frequencies and clock rates,

That's just a plain lie, as expected from a fanatic
idiot. According to your Shit and its Holiest
Postulate the frequencies should be the same
everywhere.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 12:05 UTC

On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 11:54:09 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It took me a while searching on the biased Google, so I turned to read the
> > historical comments of the most relevant relativists at this forum.
>
> There are no new contributions to relativity.
> Everything is relativistic.
> (except that measurement accuracy may be to low to detect it)

In the meantime in the real world, however, forbidden by
your insane religion TAI keep measuring t'=t, just like
all serious clocks always did.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<t2uici$1bes$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of
relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 12:25:54 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Odd Bodkin - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 12:25 UTC

Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:20:50 PM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
>>> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
>>> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
>>>
>>>
>> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
>> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
>>
>> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
>>
>> --
>> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>
> One of many, many sources that explain how atomic clocks work, and how
> their "MW noise" has been reduced 100 times
> in the last 40 years. Read it as a trained EE would, Bodkin.
>
> Oh! wait. You are just a simple woodworker physicist wannabe.
>
> Dependence of microwave-excitation signal parameters on frequency
> stability of caesium atomic clock
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283671528_Dependence_of_microwave-excitation_signal_parameters_on_frequency_stability_of_caesium_atomic_clock
>
>

So they say that by this method they have a stability of 1.2E-14. But
300Hz/9.19E9Hz doesn’t seem to come even close to that.

--
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
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 by: Python - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 12:26 UTC

Odd Bodkin wrote:
> Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:20:50 PM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
>>>> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
>>>> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
>>> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
>>>
>>> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>>
>> One of many, many sources that explain how atomic clocks work, and how
>> their "MW noise" has been reduced 100 times
>> in the last 40 years. Read it as a trained EE would, Bodkin.
>>
>> Oh! wait. You are just a simple woodworker physicist wannabe.
>>
>> Dependence of microwave-excitation signal parameters on frequency
>> stability of caesium atomic clock
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283671528_Dependence_of_microwave-excitation_signal_parameters_on_frequency_stability_of_caesium_atomic_clock
>>
>>
>
> So they say that by this method they have a stability of 1.2E-14. But
> 300Hz/9.19E9Hz doesn’t seem to come even close to that.

Hertz has issues with Hertz :-)

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 14:04 UTC

On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 9:25:58 AM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:20:50 PM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> .
> >>>
> >>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
> >>> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
> >>> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
> >> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
> >>
> >> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
> >
> > One of many, many sources that explain how atomic clocks work, and how
> > their "MW noise" has been reduced 100 times
> > in the last 40 years. Read it as a trained EE would, Bodkin.
> >
> > Oh! wait. You are just a simple woodworker physicist wannabe.
> >
> > Dependence of microwave-excitation signal parameters on frequency
> > stability of caesium atomic clock
> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283671528_Dependence_of_microwave-excitation_signal_parameters_on_frequency_stability_of_caesium_atomic_clock
> >
> >
>
> So they say that by this method they have a stability of 1.2E-14. But
> 300Hz/9.19E9Hz doesn’t seem to come even close to that.
> --
> Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Because you didn't understand it. Not even a little bit!

The measurement of the 300 Hz spectrum dispersion (with a gaussian shape around fo) is MEASURED
(even saved for further printing in color) by a spectrum analyzer EXACTLY at the output of the Ramsay
cavity, using a microwave prove.

And is SUCH "cavity noise" which is obtained at the OUTPUT of the photodetector, once a further magnetic
filtering of hyperexcited atoms is performed.

The "audio range" signal is FUNDAMENTAL for the processing in the feedback loop, that phase-lock the OCXO
(which is the REAL output of the atomic clock). The black box that processes the "audio range" signal is a HEAVY
low-pass filter (with a bandwidth lower than 1 Hz). The output is now fed to an input on the OCXO, with the
purpose of PHASE-LOCK (not frequency-lock) the OCXO.

And such phase-locked signal (which is upscaled to feed the Ramsay cavity) is the REAL output, and has such
values of stability (that can be measured rather easily, in the Mhz range, by automatic measurement systems).

Do you get it now, Bodkin?

Usually, and based on my experience, physicists don't get squat about closed loop systems, because they are
used to open loop systems, and besides they are DUMB.

Engineering tops over physics every time, and for many decades before your stupid god started with the crap of relativity.

Tesla is an example.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

<t2uphh$i30$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=87387&group=sci.physics.relativity#87387

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From: bodkin...@gmail.com (Odd Bodkin)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of
relativity in 110 years.
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2022 14:28:01 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Odd Bodkin - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 14:28 UTC

Richard Hertz <hertz778@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 9:25:58 AM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:20:50 PM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
>>>>> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
>>>>> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
>>>> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
>>>>
>>>> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>>>
>>> One of many, many sources that explain how atomic clocks work, and how
>>> their "MW noise" has been reduced 100 times
>>> in the last 40 years. Read it as a trained EE would, Bodkin.
>>>
>>> Oh! wait. You are just a simple woodworker physicist wannabe.
>>>
>>> Dependence of microwave-excitation signal parameters on frequency
>>> stability of caesium atomic clock
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283671528_Dependence_of_microwave-excitation_signal_parameters_on_frequency_stability_of_caesium_atomic_clock
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> So they say that by this method they have a stability of 1.2E-14. But
>> 300Hz/9.19E9Hz doesn’t seem to come even close to that.
>> --
>> Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>
> Because you didn't understand it. Not even a little bit!
>
> The measurement of the 300 Hz spectrum dispersion (with a gaussian shape
> around fo) is MEASURED
> (even saved for further printing in color) by a spectrum analyzer EXACTLY
> at the output of the Ramsay
> cavity, using a microwave prove.
>
> And is SUCH "cavity noise" which is obtained at the OUTPUT of the
> photodetector, once a further magnetic
> filtering of hyperexcited atoms is performed.
>
> The "audio range" signal is FUNDAMENTAL for the processing in the
> feedback loop, that phase-lock the OCXO
> (which is the REAL output of the atomic clock). The black box that
> processes the "audio range" signal is a HEAVY
> low-pass filter (with a bandwidth lower than 1 Hz). The output is now fed
> to an input on the OCXO, with the
> purpose of PHASE-LOCK (not frequency-lock) the OCXO.
>
> And such phase-locked signal (which is upscaled to feed the Ramsay
> cavity) is the REAL output, and has such
> values of stability (that can be measured rather easily, in the Mhz
> range, by automatic measurement systems).
>
> Do you get it now, Bodkin?

No. The EE stuff is over my head.
I’m just wondering how the same authors, who are as competent as you with
EE, say they can get a stability of 1.2E-14 when it appears you are saying
they can get no more than 3E-8. Maybe you want to let them know they are
incompetent?

>
> Usually, and based on my experience, physicists don't get squat about
> closed loop systems, because they are
> used to open loop systems, and besides they are DUMB.
>
> Engineering tops over physics every time, and for many decades before
> your stupid god started with the crap of relativity.
>
> Tesla is an example.
>
>
>
>
>

--
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 15:03 UTC

On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 14:27:00 UTC+2, Python wrote:
> Odd Bodkin wrote:
> > Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:20:50 PM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> .
> >>>>
> >>>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
> >>>> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
> >>>> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
> >>> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
> >>>
> >>> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
> >>
> >> One of many, many sources that explain how atomic clocks work, and how
> >> their "MW noise" has been reduced 100 times
> >> in the last 40 years. Read it as a trained EE would, Bodkin.
> >>
> >> Oh! wait. You are just a simple woodworker physicist wannabe.
> >>
> >> Dependence of microwave-excitation signal parameters on frequency
> >> stability of caesium atomic clock
> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283671528_Dependence_of_microwave-excitation_signal_parameters_on_frequency_stability_of_caesium_atomic_clock
> >>
> >>
> >
> > So they say that by this method they have a stability of 1.2E-14. But
> > 300Hz/9.19E9Hz doesn’t seem to come even close to that.
> Hertz has issues with Hertz :-)

Oh, stinker Python is opening its muzzle again,
and trying to pretend he knows something.
Tell me, poor stinker, what is your definition of
a "theory" in the terms of Peano arithmetic?
See: if a theorem is going to be a part of a theory,
it has to be formulable in the language of the
theory. Do you get it? Or are you too stupid even for
that, poor stinker?

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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in 110 years.
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 by: patdolan - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 15:17 UTC

On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 2:54:09 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It took me a while searching on the biased Google, so I turned to read the
> > historical comments of the most relevant relativists at this forum.
>
> There are no new contributions to relativity.
> Everything is relativistic.
> (except that measurement accuracy may be to low to detect it)
>
> The only thing that would be news would be a falsification
> of (general) relativity.
>
> So go ahead, produce one, if you want people to listen,
>
> Jan

No one listens to falsifications. That's one of the fundamental principals of science according to Kuhn. Please re-read "Structures".

When you finish the re-read Jan, here is a test question for you: What DO people "listen" to when it comes scientific stuff? Please answer in short essay form for full credit.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Sun, 10 Apr 2022 15:37 UTC

On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 11:28:06 AM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 9:25:58 AM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 1:20:50 PM UTC-3, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Richard Hertz <hert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> .
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Such signal is NOT a feedback DC signal BECAUSE hyperfine transitions in
> >>>>> the 9.12 Ghz range have variations within
> >>>>> +/- 300 Hz, centered around the nominal 9,192,631,770 Hz average value.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> You have evidence that the frequency of the hyperfine transition in cesium
> >>>> varies stochastically by +/- 300Hz?
> >>>>
> >>>> Fantastic! Where is that evidence?
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables
> >>>
> >>> One of many, many sources that explain how atomic clocks work, and how
> >>> their "MW noise" has been reduced 100 times
> >>> in the last 40 years. Read it as a trained EE would, Bodkin.
> >>>
> >>> Oh! wait. You are just a simple woodworker physicist wannabe.
> >>>
> >>> Dependence of microwave-excitation signal parameters on frequency
> >>> stability of caesium atomic clock
> >>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283671528_Dependence_of_microwave-excitation_signal_parameters_on_frequency_stability_of_caesium_atomic_clock
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> So they say that by this method they have a stability of 1.2E-14. But
> >> 300Hz/9.19E9Hz doesn’t seem to come even close to that.
> >> --
> >> Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
> >
> > Because you didn't understand it. Not even a little bit!
> >
> > The measurement of the 300 Hz spectrum dispersion (with a gaussian shape
> > around fo) is MEASURED
> > (even saved for further printing in color) by a spectrum analyzer EXACTLY
> > at the output of the Ramsay
> > cavity, using a microwave prove.
> >
> > And is SUCH "cavity noise" which is obtained at the OUTPUT of the
> > photodetector, once a further magnetic
> > filtering of hyperexcited atoms is performed.
> >
> > The "audio range" signal is FUNDAMENTAL for the processing in the
> > feedback loop, that phase-lock the OCXO
> > (which is the REAL output of the atomic clock). The black box that
> > processes the "audio range" signal is a HEAVY
> > low-pass filter (with a bandwidth lower than 1 Hz). The output is now fed
> > to an input on the OCXO, with the
> > purpose of PHASE-LOCK (not frequency-lock) the OCXO.
> >
> > And such phase-locked signal (which is upscaled to feed the Ramsay
> > cavity) is the REAL output, and has such
> > values of stability (that can be measured rather easily, in the Mhz
> > range, by automatic measurement systems).
> >
> > Do you get it now, Bodkin?
> No. The EE stuff is over my head.
> I’m just wondering how the same authors, who are as competent as you with
> EE, say they can get a stability of 1.2E-14 when it appears you are saying
> they can get no more than 3E-8. Maybe you want to let them know they are
> incompetent?
> >
> > Usually, and based on my experience, physicists don't get squat about
> > closed loop systems, because they are
> > used to open loop systems, and besides they are DUMB.
> >
> > Engineering tops over physics every time, and for many decades before
> > your stupid god started with the crap of relativity.
> >
> > Tesla is an example.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Oh dear!

You are not familiar with the GAIN IN STABILITY of closed loop systems, with negative feedback.
At any EE career anywhere in the world, Control Systems courses require two consecutive years of study,
because such field has a vast range of applications, which you wouldn't believe.

Think about this: The same basic theory that allows hypersonic missiles to hit a target at 1,000 Km while
flying at 5 Km/sec with 3 meters CER error is the one that allows that an open loop DC generation by rectifying
AC from an outlet, providing 9.0000 DC volts under heavy use.

If you wouldn't use CLOSED loop feedback, you would get a 400 meters CER for the missile, or 9V+/- 1 volt.

The GAIN of 1,000 or 50,000 in accuracy that CLS provide is what narrows the output variation of the control system.

Such gain lowers the uncertainty of OPEN loop systems by that amount.

The more demanding the accuracy, the more elaborated the control system is.

I put it in these simple words, to allow you to understand the basics behind the engineering. And it may involve many kinds
of engineering: electrical, mechanical, optical, chemical, etc.

Atomic clocks exists with such perfection (as of today) due to NEGATIVE FEEDBACK CONTROL SYSTEMS.

Illustrate yourself a little about this, and thank me later.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
From: setoke...@gmail.com (Ken Seto)
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 by: Ken Seto - Mon, 11 Apr 2022 20:56 UTC

On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 5:07:55 PM UTC-4, Michael Moroney wrote:
> On 4/9/2022 11:58 AM, Ken Seto wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 11:33:36 AM UTC-4, Michael Moroney wrote:
> >> On 4/9/2022 7:41 AM, patdolan wrote:
> >>
> >>> I also note that for the first 20 years of the GPS's existence the GPS algorithms contained not one single hint of correction for either SR or GR effects.
> >> You "note" incorrectly. The GR correction is in the GPS specs from the
> >> start. At the time of the launch of the first prototype GPS satellite,
> >> there must have been some discussion whether GR effects were valid,
> >> since the first GPS prototype bird had the ability to turn the GR clock
> >> adjustment on or off. That is, select between a Cs clock divisor of
> >> either 9,192,631,770 or 9,192,631,774.1 to generate all the signals
> >> intended for earth reception. Using 9,192,631,770 meant the transmitted
> >> frequency was the same as the received frequency, that is, no SR/GR
> >> effects. Using 9,192,631,774.1 meant using the effects predicted by SR
> >> and GR, and the transmitted frequencies were slightly below the received
> >> frequeironment ncies. That is, a frequency transmitted at 10.22999999543 MHz was
> >> received on earth at 10.23 MHz. The satellite was launched in 1979, the
> >> switch was set to use 9,192,631,770 as the timebase divisor for 20 days.
> >> Meaning the SR/GR predictions don't apply. The satellite didn't work
> >> correctly, there was too much error. After 20 days, the switch was set
> >> to use 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor, meaning SR/GR needed to be
> >> accounted for, and then the system worked correctly. All further
> >> satellites used 9,192,631,774.1 as the divisor and none of them had any
> >> such switch.
> >
> > Stupid moron Mike.....that's because a clock second in a gravity environment contains a larger amount of absolute time. Gee you are so fucking backward.
> >>
> Stupid Ken, we're discussing actual physics here, not Seto's
> make-believe assertions. Run along now.

Stupid moron Mike You don't know any real physics.

Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity in 110 years.

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From: imi...@xfzzzzyy.zz (Misal Yamagata)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: I wrote a list with 5 most relevant contributions of relativity
in 110 years.
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 21:15:53 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Misal Yamagata - Mon, 11 Apr 2022 21:15 UTC

Ken Seto wrote:

> On Saturday, April 9, 2022 at 5:07:55 PM UTC-4, Michael Moroney wrote:
>> Stupid Ken, we're discussing actual physics here, not Seto's
>> make-believe assertions. Run along now.
>
> Stupid moron Mike You don't know any real physics.

He know, he is my friend.

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