Hi,

I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?

Tia,

Andres

On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 8:01:28 AM UTC-4, andre...@aol.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>
> Tia,
>
> Andres

Yes, it was very common back then. The trend towards wider tires for road bikes is only somewhat recent. Most higher end road frames from the 90's to probably the mid 2010's would struggle to fit a 28. In fact some of the clearances were so tight that you sometimes needed to deflate the tire in order to get the wheel in the frame the re-inflate it. The was especially true of frames with horizontal dropouts. My 2005 Scott CR1 (Saunier-Duval Team Edition) can't take more than a wide 25 or narrow 28 (yes, I know it has vertical dropouts). The chainstays are so tight that I can't fit a newer Zipp Firecrest 303 because the rim is too wide. You just have to make sure your wheel is tuned up so that any larger hits won't knock it out of true, or get a 'bullet proof' wheel. I'm running a set of older Ksyrium Elite wheels on the Scott for non-race riding. I can't tell you how many holes I've hit with those over the years and they're still round and true. I've only has to tweak them once or twice. On race days I run a older set of Zipp 303's, actually a pretty narrow rim.

On 7/30/2023 7:01 AM, andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>
> Tia,
>
> Andres
>

I think it's a full on race bike with suitable geometry and
materials (top quality execution too!). I don't see a
prob;em with that.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?

As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that conferred zero
benefit and significant detriment. The rationale seemed to be "My bike
is _only_ for fast riding! I don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't
that cool?"

Since then, it's been pretty conclusively shown that with wider tires
you get a bit less rolling resistance. You also get more resistance to
pinch flats and more comfort. And with more frame clearance, you get the
ability to keep riding if you should happen to break a spoke or
otherwise get a badly out of true wheel far from home.

With steel frames, it's possible to indent the insides of the chainstays
to get a little more tire clearance. Despite claims that it couldn't be
done, I was able to do the same with my old Cannondale touring bike. I'm
guessing a really good shop could do it with your Merlin, assuming it
doesn't already have those dents; I don't know for sure. Do you know
details on the specific titanium alloy?

But that's not a super-easy operation to perform, and you'll probably
enjoy the bike as it is. If you think there's a danger of breaking a
spoke, I suppose you could carry a spare spoke and nipple tool.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 2:01:28 PM UTC+2, andre...@aol.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>
> Tia,
>
> Andres

Don’t worry too much. Check before a ride and get yourself a spare rear wheel so no ride is wasted.

Lou

On 7/30/2023 11:52 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002.
>> Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there
>> is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the
>> chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit
>> a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause
>> other problems? What do you all think?
>
> As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that
> conferred zero benefit and significant detriment. The
> rationale seemed to be "My bike is _only_ for fast riding! I
> don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't that cool?"
>
> Since then, it's been pretty conclusively shown that with
> wider tires you get a bit less rolling resistance. You also
> get more resistance to pinch flats and more comfort. And
> with more frame clearance, you get the ability to keep
> riding if you should happen to break a spoke or otherwise
> get a badly out of true wheel far from home.
>
> With steel frames, it's possible to indent the insides of
> the chainstays to get a little more tire clearance. Despite
> claims that it couldn't be done, I was able to do the same
> with my old Cannondale touring bike. I'm guessing a really
> good shop could do it with your Merlin, assuming it doesn't
> already have those dents; I don't know for sure. Do you know
> details on the specific titanium alloy?
>
> But that's not a super-easy operation to perform, and you'll
> probably enjoy the bike as it is. If you think there's a
> danger of breaking a spoke, I suppose you could carry a
> spare spoke and nipple tool.
>

I know something about this. As do you.

Once a designer has committed to a short wheelbase and 23mm
race tires ('why' would be a different discussion but
suffice to say that in 2002 "It's for selling" would be a
fine answer) the choices are:

Tight clearance
Dented chainstays
Skinny chainstays

Of those, fatter rounder chainstays are much stiffer
(considered a desirable feature in race bike) and roundish
ovals are less prone to fracture than dented tubes.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 12:52:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>
>As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that conferred zero
>benefit and significant detriment.

I suspect the people who bought them judged that differently...

>The rationale seemed to be "My bike
>is _only_ for fast riding! I don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't
>that cool?"

...or maybe they just liked it.

>Since then, it's been pretty conclusively shown that with wider tires
>you get a bit less rolling resistance. You also get more resistance to
>pinch flats and more comfort. And with more frame clearance, you get the
>ability to keep riding if you should happen to break a spoke or
>otherwise get a badly out of true wheel far from home.
>
>With steel frames, it's possible to indent the insides of the chainstays
>to get a little more tire clearance. Despite claims that it couldn't be
>done, I was able to do the same with my old Cannondale touring bike. I'm
>guessing a really good shop could do it with your Merlin, assuming it
>doesn't already have those dents; I don't know for sure. Do you know
>details on the specific titanium alloy?
>
>But that's not a super-easy operation to perform, and you'll probably
>enjoy the bike as it is. If you think there's a danger of breaking a
>spoke, I suppose you could carry a spare spoke and nipple tool.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 12:52:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a
>>> beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal
>>> clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel
>>> goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then?
>>> Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>>
>> As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that conferred zero
>> benefit and significant detriment.
>
> I suspect the people who bought them judged that differently...

I’m sure they did as that’s was one of the problems, narrow high pressures
tires feel fast, and the zing on fresh tarmac is lovely but it was based on
incorrect or incomplete understanding of the science and priorities.

Ie unless it’s very smooth 120+ 23mm is no faster than 28/30mm at 60psi
which is also a darn sight more comfortable and so on!
>
>> The rationale seemed to be "My bike
>> is _only_ for fast riding! I don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't
>> that cool?"
>
> ..or maybe they just liked it.
>
>> Since then, it's been pretty conclusively shown that with wider tires
>> you get a bit less rolling resistance. You also get more resistance to
>> pinch flats and more comfort. And with more frame clearance, you get the
>> ability to keep riding if you should happen to break a spoke or
>> otherwise get a badly out of true wheel far from home.
>>
>> With steel frames, it's possible to indent the insides of the chainstays
>> to get a little more tire clearance. Despite claims that it couldn't be
>> done, I was able to do the same with my old Cannondale touring bike. I'm
>> guessing a really good shop could do it with your Merlin, assuming it
>> doesn't already have those dents; I don't know for sure. Do you know
>> details on the specific titanium alloy?
>>
>> But that's not a super-easy operation to perform, and you'll probably
>> enjoy the bike as it is. If you think there's a danger of breaking a
>> spoke, I suppose you could carry a spare spoke and nipple tool.
>

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 20:27:49 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 12:52:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a
>>>> beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal
>>>> clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel
>>>> goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then?
>>>> Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>>>
>>> As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that conferred zero
>>> benefit and significant detriment.
>>
>> I suspect the people who bought them judged that differently...
>
>I’m sure they did as that’s was one of the problems, narrow high pressures
>tires feel fast, and the zing on fresh tarmac is lovely but it was based on
>incorrect or incomplete understanding of the science and priorities.
>
>Ie unless it’s very smooth 120+ 23mm is no faster than 28/30mm at 60psi
>which is also a darn sight more comfortable and so on!

I run 40mm at 85/90 psi. I tried some 35mm, Schwalbe Duranos. I
believe they were faster on very smooth hard asphalt, but if it was a
bit rough, they were slower and I felt every little chip.

>>> The rationale seemed to be "My bike
>>> is _only_ for fast riding! I don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't
>>> that cool?"
>>
>> ..or maybe they just liked it.
>>
>>> Since then, it's been pretty conclusively shown that with wider tires
>>> you get a bit less rolling resistance. You also get more resistance to
>>> pinch flats and more comfort. And with more frame clearance, you get the
>>> ability to keep riding if you should happen to break a spoke or
>>> otherwise get a badly out of true wheel far from home.
>>>
>>> With steel frames, it's possible to indent the insides of the chainstays
>>> to get a little more tire clearance. Despite claims that it couldn't be
>>> done, I was able to do the same with my old Cannondale touring bike. I'm
>>> guessing a really good shop could do it with your Merlin, assuming it
>>> doesn't already have those dents; I don't know for sure. Do you know
>>> details on the specific titanium alloy?
>>>
>>> But that's not a super-easy operation to perform, and you'll probably
>>> enjoy the bike as it is. If you think there's a danger of breaking a
>>> spoke, I suppose you could carry a spare spoke and nipple tool.
>>
>
>Roger Merriman

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 11:49:55 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/30/2023 7:01 AM, andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>>
>> Tia,
>>
>> Andres
>>
>
>I think it's a full on race bike with suitable geometry and
>materials (top quality execution too!). I don't see a
>prob;em with that.

If the sleek modern cycle has a higher top speed or better fuel
economy, assuming the same engine displacement, then quite obviously
it is a better design.
I read that some BMW models are capable of 188 mph and 0 to 62 mph in
3.1 seconds :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 20:27:49 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 12:52:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a
>>>>> beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal
>>>>> clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel
>>>>> goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then?
>>>>> Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>>>>
>>>> As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that conferred zero
>>>> benefit and significant detriment.
>>>
>>> I suspect the people who bought them judged that differently...
>>
>> I’m sure they did as that’s was one of the problems, narrow high pressures
>> tires feel fast, and the zing on fresh tarmac is lovely but it was based on
>> incorrect or incomplete understanding of the science and priorities.
>>
>> Ie unless it’s very smooth 120+ 23mm is no faster than 28/30mm at 60psi
>> which is also a darn sight more comfortable and so on!
>
> I run 40mm at 85/90 psi. I tried some 35mm, Schwalbe Duranos. I
> believe they were faster on very smooth hard asphalt, but if it was a
> bit rough, they were slower and I felt every little chip.

I run 35mm at 45psi though 700c will result in greater volume anyway,
though I’m assuming your trails are tarmac or made trails? I’d assume you
could drop the pressures though lot of this is preference and so on.

>
>>>> The rationale seemed to be "My bike
>>>> is _only_ for fast riding! I don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't
>>>> that cool?"
>>>
>>> ..or maybe they just liked it.
>>>
>>>> Since then, it's been pretty conclusively shown that with wider tires
>>>> you get a bit less rolling resistance. You also get more resistance to
>>>> pinch flats and more comfort. And with more frame clearance, you get the
>>>> ability to keep riding if you should happen to break a spoke or
>>>> otherwise get a badly out of true wheel far from home.
>>>>
>>>> With steel frames, it's possible to indent the insides of the chainstays
>>>> to get a little more tire clearance. Despite claims that it couldn't be
>>>> done, I was able to do the same with my old Cannondale touring bike. I'm
>>>> guessing a really good shop could do it with your Merlin, assuming it
>>>> doesn't already have those dents; I don't know for sure. Do you know
>>>> details on the specific titanium alloy?
>>>>
>>>> But that's not a super-easy operation to perform, and you'll probably
>>>> enjoy the bike as it is. If you think there's a danger of breaking a
>>>> spoke, I suppose you could carry a spare spoke and nipple tool.
>>>
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 23:37:37 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 20:27:49 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 12:52:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andresmuro@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a
>>>>>> beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal
>>>>>> clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel
>>>>>> goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then?
>>>>>> Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>>>>>
>>>>> As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that conferred zero
>>>>> benefit and significant detriment.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect the people who bought them judged that differently...
>>>
>>> I?m sure they did as that?s was one of the problems, narrow high pressures
>>> tires feel fast, and the zing on fresh tarmac is lovely but it was based on
>>> incorrect or incomplete understanding of the science and priorities.
>>>
>>> Ie unless it?s very smooth 120+ 23mm is no faster than 28/30mm at 60psi
>>> which is also a darn sight more comfortable and so on!
>>
>> I run 40mm at 85/90 psi. I tried some 35mm, Schwalbe Duranos. I
>> believe they were faster on very smooth hard asphalt, but if it was a
>> bit rough, they were slower and I felt every little chip.
>
>I run 35mm at 45psi though 700c will result in greater volume anyway,
>though I’m assuming your trails are tarmac or made trails? I’d assume you
>could drop the pressures though lot of this is preference and so on.

I notice the difference and have to work harder at 67/70 psi.

>>
>>>>> The rationale seemed to be "My bike
>>>>> is _only_ for fast riding! I don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't
>>>>> that cool?"
>>>>
>>>> ..or maybe they just liked it.
>>>>
>>>>> Since then, it's been pretty conclusively shown that with wider tires
>>>>> you get a bit less rolling resistance. You also get more resistance to
>>>>> pinch flats and more comfort. And with more frame clearance, you get the
>>>>> ability to keep riding if you should happen to break a spoke or
>>>>> otherwise get a badly out of true wheel far from home.
>>>>>
>>>>> With steel frames, it's possible to indent the insides of the chainstays
>>>>> to get a little more tire clearance. Despite claims that it couldn't be
>>>>> done, I was able to do the same with my old Cannondale touring bike. I'm
>>>>> guessing a really good shop could do it with your Merlin, assuming it
>>>>> doesn't already have those dents; I don't know for sure. Do you know
>>>>> details on the specific titanium alloy?
>>>>>
>>>>> But that's not a super-easy operation to perform, and you'll probably
>>>>> enjoy the bike as it is. If you think there's a danger of breaking a
>>>>> spoke, I suppose you could carry a spare spoke and nipple tool.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
>Roger Merriman

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:20:33 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 2:01:28?PM UTC+2, andre...@aol.com wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>>
>> Tia,
>>
>> Andres
>
>
>Don’t worry too much. Check before a ride and get yourself a spare rear wheel so no ride is wasted.
>
>Lou

Well... how often does a rear wheel go out of true :-) My bikes are
all older models with limited tire clearance and I can remember one
time I broke a spoke (in a home made wheel) and had to futz around to
get home.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 12:52:21 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andre...@aol.com wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
> As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that conferred zero
> benefit and significant detriment.

To be clear I wote 'it was very common'. I didn't write "It was a fashion that conferred zero benefit and significant detriment.", which I don't agree with.

> The rationale seemed to be "My bike
> is _only_ for fast riding! I don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't
> that cool?"

Bullshit, Frank...Seriously. It wasn't an issue of fashion, it was what was understood _at that time_ about performance. The prevailing wisdom was that skinnier tires were faster. If one wanted a bike that could fit fenders they wouldn't buy a bike that was built exclusively for road racing, and back then there wasn't nearly as much of a crossover of frame designs as there is now. A well-bult touring bike is built to be stable and comfortable while carrying heavy loads. A racing bike is built to be responsive and lightweight (some say 'twitchy'). Compromises are possible, but if you want the best performance you wouldn't buy a bike that was built to handle panniers.

> Since then, it's been pretty conclusively shown that with wider tires
> you get a bit less rolling resistance. You also get more resistance to
> pinch flats and more comfort. And with more frame clearance, you get the
> ability to keep riding if you should happen to break a spoke or
> otherwise get a badly out of true wheel far from home.

All true, and the risks one takes making a persona decision to pursue performance over reliability.

>
> With steel frames, it's possible to indent the insides of the chainstays
> to get a little more tire clearance. Despite claims that it couldn't be
> done, I was able to do the same with my old Cannondale touring bike. I'm
> guessing a really good shop could do it with your Merlin, assuming it
> doesn't already have those dents; I don't know for sure. Do you know
> details on the specific titanium alloy?
>
> But that's not a super-easy operation to perform, and you'll probably
> enjoy the bike as it is. If you think there's a danger of breaking a
> spoke, I suppose you could carry a spare spoke and nipple tool.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 8:06:03 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:20:33 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 2:01:28?PM UTC+2, andre...@aol.com wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
> >>
> >> Tia,
> >>
> >> Andres
> >
> >
> >Don’t worry too much. Check before a ride and get yourself a spare rear wheel so no ride is wasted.
> >
> >Lou
> Well... how often does a rear wheel go out of true :-) My bikes are
> all older models with limited tire clearance and I can remember one
> time I broke a spoke (in a home made wheel) and had to futz around to
> get home.

It happens often enough that except for disk wheels, even the highest of high-end wheels still offer the ability to change spokes. The types that don't - such as Tri-Spoke and Spinergy - are pretty much defunct models that revealed the major weakness of being throw-aways once the true was lost. Given the amount of investment in cycling technology these days, if there was a reliable wheel design that didn't need the ability to true, I'm thinking we would have seen working attempts beyond the aforementioned version by now..

> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2023 02:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 8:06:03?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:20:33 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 2:01:28?PM UTC+2, andre...@aol.com wrote:
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause other problems? What do you all think?
>> >>
>> >> Tia,
>> >>
>> >> Andres
>> >
>> >
>> >Don’t worry too much. Check before a ride and get yourself a spare rear wheel so no ride is wasted.
>> >
>> >Lou
>> Well... how often does a rear wheel go out of true :-) My bikes are
>> all older models with limited tire clearance and I can remember one
>> time I broke a spoke (in a home made wheel) and had to futz around to
>> get home.
>
>It happens often enough that except for disk wheels, even the rhighest of high-end wheels still offer the ability to change spokes. The types that don't - such as Tri-Spoke and Spinergy - are pretty much defunct models that revealed the major weakness of being throw-aways once the true was lost. Given the amount of investment in cycling technology these days, if there was a reliable wheel design that didn't need the ability to true, I'm thinking we would have seen working attempts beyond the aforementioned version by now.

I think you are going all 'rond Robin Hood's Barn.
Spoked wheels originated in an effort to reduce the weight of solid
wheels and spoked bicycle wheels are, disregarding plastic, about the
limit it is possible to go. As for changing spokes? I'm not sure what
you mean here. Yes most wheels have removable spokes as that is how
they are built, which goes without saying.
As for "it happens enough".. I can only go by my own experience and as
I said, I can only remember once in 30 or 40 years that it happened.
Which I might add is far fewer times then I've had a flat tire :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 7/31/2023 5:27 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 12:52:21 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andre...@aol.com wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a
beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance
between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out
of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause
other problems? What do you all think?
>> As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that conferred zero
>> benefit and significant detriment.
>
> To be clear I wote 'it was very common'. I didn't write "It was a
fashion that conferred zero benefit and significant detriment.", which I
don't agree with.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that second sentence was yours. It
absolutely was mine.

>
>> The rationale seemed to be "My bike
>> is _only_ for fast riding! I don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't
>> that cool?"
>
> Bullshit, Frank...Seriously. It wasn't an issue of fashion, it was
what was understood _at that time_ about performance. The prevailing
wisdom was that skinnier tires were faster. If one wanted a bike that
could fit fenders they wouldn't buy a bike that was built exclusively
for road racing, and back then there wasn't nearly as much of a
crossover of frame designs as there is now. A well-bult touring bike is
built to be stable and comfortable while carrying heavy loads. A racing
bike is built to be responsive and lightweight (some say 'twitchy').
Compromises are possible, but if you want the best performance you
wouldn't buy a bike that was built to handle panniers.

I'm not talking about the "at that time" belief that skinny tires were
faster, nor am I talking about frame geometry influencing "stable" vs.
"twitchy." I'm talking about clearances around tires and wheels. Those
factors are independent.

Back in the 1970s (at least) it was common for a person to race on
super-skinny tubular tires on fragile light rims, but to have a
different set of wheels and much wider tires for training or other
riding. It was common for racing bikes to accommodate that wheel swap.
And in climates (like England's) where rain is very frequent, it was
common for training to be done with fenders. That demanded sufficient
frame clearances.

You can see evidence of those clearances in historical racing photos.

https://coresites-cdn-adm.imgix.net/rcuk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Jacques-Anquetil-descent-bike-pic-Sirotti.jpg

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/49e79bfcd0cfe9f06a56bb161a86e890161c4260/0_221_2048_1229/2048.jpg?width=1200&height=630&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&overlay-align=bottom%2Cleft&overlay-width=100p&overlay-base64=L2ltZy9zdGF0aWMvb3ZlcmxheXMvdGctZGVmYXVsdC5wbmc&s=bb5fb3fcd3a1df91ef97fd587d94b70d

The trend to close clearances may have started with very short reach
sidepull brakes; I don't really know. But dual pivot brakes made that
lack of brake clearance unnecessary even for hypothetical racers with
super-weak hands. Yet about the time dual pivots came out, fork blades
began squashing closer together, prohibiting wide tires, let alone fenders.

Gravel racing bikes now accommodate > 35mm tires. That could have been
done when the Merlin under discussion was built. It would have allowed
much greater versatility with no loss in performance.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 7/31/2023 5:27 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 30, 2023 at 12:52:21 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/30/2023 8:01 AM, andre...@aol.com wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I just purchased a used Merlin XL Compact frame from 2002. Its a
> beautiful frame and rides very nice. However, there is minimal clearance
> between my 23c rear tire and the chainstays. If my tire wheel goes out
> of true it will hit a chainstay Was this common back then? Will it cause
> other problems? What do you all think?
>>> As Funky says, it was very common. It was a fashion that conferred zero
>>> benefit and significant detriment.
>>
>> To be clear I wote 'it was very common'. I didn't write "It was a
> fashion that conferred zero benefit and significant detriment.", which I
> don't agree with.
>
> Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that second sentence was yours. It
> absolutely was mine.
>
>>
>>> The rationale seemed to be "My bike
>>> is _only_ for fast riding! I don't have room for tires or fenders! Isn't
>>> that cool?"
>>
>> Bullshit, Frank...Seriously. It wasn't an issue of fashion, it was
> what was understood _at that time_ about performance. The prevailing
> wisdom was that skinnier tires were faster. If one wanted a bike that
> could fit fenders they wouldn't buy a bike that was built exclusively
> for road racing, and back then there wasn't nearly as much of a
> crossover of frame designs as there is now. A well-bult touring bike is
> built to be stable and comfortable while carrying heavy loads. A racing
> bike is built to be responsive and lightweight (some say 'twitchy').
> Compromises are possible, but if you want the best performance you
> wouldn't buy a bike that was built to handle panniers.
>
> I'm not talking about the "at that time" belief that skinny tires were
> faster, nor am I talking about frame geometry influencing "stable" vs.
> "twitchy." I'm talking about clearances around tires and wheels. Those
> factors are independent.
>
> Back in the 1970s (at least) it was common for a person to race on
> super-skinny tubular tires on fragile light rims, but to have a
> different set of wheels and much wider tires for training or other
> riding. It was common for racing bikes to accommodate that wheel swap.
> And in climates (like England's) where rain is very frequent, it was
> common for training to be done with fenders. That demanded sufficient
> frame clearances.
>
> You can see evidence of those clearances in historical racing photos.
>
> https://coresites-cdn-adm.imgix.net/rcuk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Jacques-Anquetil-descent-bike-pic-Sirotti.jpg
>
> https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/49e79bfcd0cfe9f06a56bb161a86e890161c4260/0_221_2048_1229/2048.jpg?width=1200&height=630&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&overlay-align=bottom%2Cleft&overlay-width=100p&overlay-base64=L2ltZy9zdGF0aWMvb3ZlcmxheXMvdGctZGVmYXVsdC5wbmc&s=bb5fb3fcd3a1df91ef97fd587d94b70d
>
> The trend to close clearances may have started with very short reach
> sidepull brakes; I don't really know. But dual pivot brakes made that
> lack of brake clearance unnecessary even for hypothetical racers with
> super-weak hands. Yet about the time dual pivots came out, fork blades
> began squashing closer together, prohibiting wide tires, let alone fenders.
>
> Gravel racing bikes now accommodate > 35mm tires. That could have been
> done when the Merlin under discussion was built. It would have allowed
> much greater versatility with no loss in performance.
>
Dual pivots maxed out at what 32mm and then on to cantilever which where at
least my experience rather sub par even in road and bordering on terrifying
off road. Though MTB versions where okay though possible negated by MTB
ability to ride though stuff, ie some places are practically brake free on
the MTB even older ones vs gravel bikes which do not like rocks and pointy
things!

I do agree that was fashion/weight weeny that drove narrow clearances. And
performance rim brake bikes ie road race could of had wider tires, though
I’d assume the brakes would get more spongy/flexie as the size increased.
Let alone mud clearance and wet weather performance.

In short it could of been done, but the end result ie disks taking over
would of still happened due to various reasons.

Roger Merriman