AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
running true.

I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
wheel?

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:33:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>
>AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
>noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
>spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
>have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
>sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
>also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
>replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
>running true.
>
>I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
>wheel?

Well, is the "wiggle" the wheel hub or the cog? If the hub then change
the wheel,. if the cog then change the cog (:-)

I've been disassembling used cog sets and saving the unworn, or
lightly worn, individual plates. Some are perfectly flat and some have
minor bends and would wobble.

While my scheme seemed a very logical idea the results were that I
ended up with a large number of unworn cog plates... the gear that are
seldom used and none of the more commonly used gears (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 17:42:48 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:33:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>
>>AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
>>noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
>>spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
>>have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
>>sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
>>also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
>>replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
>>running true.
>>
>>I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
>>wheel?
>
>Well, is the "wiggle" the wheel hub or the cog? If the hub then change
>the wheel,. if the cog then change the cog (:-)
>
>I've been disassembling used cog sets and saving the unworn, or
>lightly worn, individual plates. Some are perfectly flat and some have
>minor bends and would wobble.
>
>While my scheme seemed a very logical idea the results were that I
>ended up with a large number of unworn cog plates... the gear that are
>seldom used and none of the more commonly used gears (:-)

It seems to be the hub, since all the cogs wobble the same. What I
wondered is if perhaps this very small wobble is a common occurrance.
I doubt I'd have even noticed it had it not been for the 36t cog
standing out so much from it's 30t neighbor, and my looking for the
reason for the noisy upshift.

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:16:59 PM UTC+2, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 17:42:48 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:33:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
> ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
> >>noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
> >>spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
> >>have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
> >>sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
> >>also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
> >>replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
> >>running true.
> >>
> >>I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
> >>wheel?
> >
> >Well, is the "wiggle" the wheel hub or the cog? If the hub then change
> >the wheel,. if the cog then change the cog (:-)
> >
> >I've been disassembling used cog sets and saving the unworn, or
> >lightly worn, individual plates. Some are perfectly flat and some have
> >minor bends and would wobble.
> >
> >While my scheme seemed a very logical idea the results were that I
> >ended up with a large number of unworn cog plates... the gear that are
> >seldom used and none of the more commonly used gears (:-)
> It seems to be the hub, since all the cogs wobble the same. What I
> wondered is if perhaps this very small wobble is a common occurrance.
> I doubt I'd have even noticed it had it not been for the 36t cog
> standing out so much from it's 30t neighbor, and my looking for the
> reason for the noisy upshift.

It is common, carry on. It is a Shimano thing.

Lou

On 8/3/2023 4:33 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
> noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
> spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
> have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
> sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
> also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
> replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
> running true.
>
> I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
> wheel?
>

Assuming the sprockets are correctly tight on the body, grab
the low gear on both sides and see if there is excessive
play in the cassette body*. If there are no other wheel
issues and if it's a Shimano hub, bodies are very available,
cheap and simple to change. For a not-Shimano hub you'll
have troubles.

If there are hub bearing or rim (dents, uneven spoke
tension, cracks) issues, a wheel is the best path.

* compare with another modern cassette wheel if you are unsure

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:33:20 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
> noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
> spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
> have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
> sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
> also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
> replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
> running true.
>
> I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
> wheel?

1. Shimano has a freehub system that is likely to be effected by dirt. Pull the cassette off and make sure that the freehub and cassette are clean and free of dirt.
2. Check that the freehub is properly tightened on the axle. This is a long shot but it does occur.
3. Make sure that the 36 tooth fits properly onto the freehub. That is normally a single cog rather than a part of a couple so dirt on the spacer or wear on the cog can allow it to move about. You don't do hard rides as in climbing but you do a lot of rides which can wear cogs out.

I see below that Lou says it is a Shimano thing. That may be since I stopped using Shimano several years ago and perhaps their QC went to hell with the adoption of those huge gears. But when I was using Shimano there wouldn't be ANY play in the cogs. Campy uses the 34 on the 12 speed as part of several gears riveted together so that tilting would be highly unusual. The Shimano superlight cogsets that I used also were machined superlight and the cogsets were carried on brackets so they wouldn't move.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 09:23:12 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/3/2023 4:33 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>
>> AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
>> noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
>> spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
>> have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
>> sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
>> also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
>> replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
>> running true.
>>
>> I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
>> wheel?
>>
>
>Assuming the sprockets are correctly tight on the body, grab
>the low gear on both sides and see if there is excessive
>play in the cassette body*. If there are no other wheel
>issues and if it's a Shimano hub, bodies are very available,
>cheap and simple to change. For a not-Shimano hub you'll
>have troubles.
>
>If there are hub bearing or rim (dents, uneven spoke
>tension, cracks) issues, a wheel is the best path.
>
>* compare with another modern cassette wheel if you are unsure

It's a shimano hub and I've changed out the inner hub, bearings,
races, and freehub, twice before, but it was because of noisy, rough
bearings. These bearings seem to be smooth and quiet. I've opened the
B-gap a bit more than specs, and that seems to make that upshift
quiter, so maybe I'll just leave it alone for now.

On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 08:54:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:33:20?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
>> noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
>> spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
>> have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
>> sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
>> also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
>> replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
>> running true.
>>
>> I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
>> wheel?
>
>1. Shimano has a freehub system that is likely to be effected by dirt. Pull the cassette off and make sure that the freehub and cassette are clean and free of dirt.
>2. Check that the freehub is properly tightened on the axle. This is a long shot but it does occur.
>3. Make sure that the 36 tooth fits properly onto the freehub. That is normally a single cog rather than a part of a couple so dirt on the spacer or wear on the cog can allow it to move about. You don't do hard rides as in climbing but you do a lot of rides which can wear cogs out.
>
>I see below that Lou says it is a Shimano thing. That may be since I stopped using Shimano several years ago and perhaps their QC went to hell with the adoption of those huge gears. But when I was using Shimano there wouldn't be ANY play in the cogs. Campy uses the 34 on the 12 speed as part of several gears riveted together so that tilting would be highly unusual. The Shimano superlight cogsets that I used also were machined superlight and the cogsets were carried on brackets so they wouldn't move.

I've taken it all apart and everything seems to be clean and tight.
I'm going to leave it alone for now.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:33:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>
>AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
>noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
>spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
>have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
>sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
>also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
>replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
>running true.
>
>I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
>wheel?

All good answers in the prior posts, but also check that the axle is
within the dropouts. I did that to myself once making adjustments to
the rear hub bearings.

good luck w it-p.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 13:46:59 -0400, pod <peas.in.a.pod@garden.net>
wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:33:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>
>>AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
>>noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
>>spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
>>have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
>>sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
>>also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
>>replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
>>running true.
>>
>>I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
>>wheel?
>
>All good answers in the prior posts, but also check that the axle is
>within the dropouts. I did that to myself once making adjustments to
>the rear hub bearings.
>
>good luck w it-p.

Good point, but I've had it in and out of the dropouts a dozen times
while tracking down this problem and truing the wheel. It's always the
same.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 14:02:55 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 13:46:59 -0400, pod <peas.in.a.pod@garden.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:33:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
>>>noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
>>>spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
>>>have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
>>>sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
>>>also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
>>>replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
>>>running true.
>>>
>>>I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
>>>wheel?
>>
>>All good answers in the prior posts, but also check that the axle is
>>within the dropouts. I did that to myself once making adjustments to
>>the rear hub bearings.
>>
>>good luck w it-p.
>
>
>Good point, but I've had it in and out of the dropouts a dozen times
>while tracking down this problem and truing the wheel. It's always the
>same.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 14:02:55 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 13:46:59 -0400, pod <peas.in.a.pod@garden.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:33:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
>>>noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
>>>spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
>>>have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
>>>sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
>>>also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
>>>replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
>>>running true.
>>>
>>>I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
>>>wheel?
>>
>>All good answers in the prior posts, but also check that the axle is
>>within the dropouts. I did that to myself once making adjustments to
>>the rear hub bearings.
>>
>>good luck w it-p.
>
>
>Good point, but I've had it in and out of the dropouts a dozen times
>while tracking down this problem and truing the wheel. It's always the
>same.

To be clear, I meant that the axle doesn't protrude beyond the outer
dropout face. In my case, I didn't properly center the rear axle after
replacing hub bearings, hence there was play in the cassette fit.
Probably just something I would do 8-)

On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 22:34:29 -0400, pod <peas.in.a.pod@garden.net>
wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 14:02:55 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 13:46:59 -0400, pod <peas.in.a.pod@garden.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:33:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>AFter truing my rear wheel, and before I put the heavy tire back on, I
>>>>noticed that the cassette had a slight wobble as the wheel was
>>>>spinning. I could see the 36 tooth cog moving in and out. It couldn't
>>>>have been more than a mm or so, but I wonder if it's the reason that
>>>>sometimes an up shift from the 36 cog clinks and rattles. Of course I
>>>>also wonder what's causing this. The wheel itself is old, but I've
>>>>replaced the inner hub and bearings a couple of times and the wheel is
>>>>running true.
>>>>
>>>>I checked that everything was tight, so maybe it's time for a new
>>>>wheel?
>>>
>>>All good answers in the prior posts, but also check that the axle is
>>>within the dropouts. I did that to myself once making adjustments to
>>>the rear hub bearings.
>>>
>>>good luck w it-p.
>>
>>
>>Good point, but I've had it in and out of the dropouts a dozen times
>>while tracking down this problem and truing the wheel. It's always the
>>same.
>
>To be clear, I meant that the axle doesn't protrude beyond the outer
>dropout face. In my case, I didn't properly center the rear axle after
>replacing hub bearings, hence there was play in the cassette fit.
>Probably just something I would do 8-)

Ok, I understand... In my case, there is no play in the cassette.
It's tight against the hub, so it seems that the wobble is in the hub.
Of course the wobble is magnified the further away from the axle, so
it becomes most apparent on the 36 tooth cog. The fact that there's no
wobble on the rim means, of course, that I've compensated for it by
truing the wheel. That means that the deviation is not random, but
consistant around the circumference of the axle.