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tech / sci.physics.relativity / Re: the impossible wheel

SubjectAuthor
* the impossible wheelRichD
+* Re: the impossible wheelProkaryotic Capase Homolog
|+- Re: the impossible wheelrotchm
|`* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| +- Re: the impossible wheelwhodat
| +- Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
| +* Re: the impossible wheelTom Roberts
| |+- Re: the impossible wheelJ. J. Lodder
| |`* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| | `* Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
| |  `* Re: the impossible wheelMichael Moroney
| |   `* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| |    +* Re: the impossible wheelMason Urogataya
| |    |`- Re: the impossible wheelmitchr...@gmail.com
| |    `* Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
| |     `* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| |      +- Re: the impossible wheelTroy Matsuda
| |      `* Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
| |       `* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| |        `* Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
| |         `* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| |          `* Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
| |           `* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| |            `* Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
| |             `- Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| `* Re: the impossible wheelProkaryotic Capase Homolog
|  `- Re: the impossible wheelRichD
+* Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
|`* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| `- Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
+* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
|+* Re: the impossible wheelProkaryotic Capase Homolog
||`- Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
|`- Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
+* Re: the impossible wheelThomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
|`* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| `* Re: the impossible wheelThomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
|  `* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
|   `- Re: the impossible wheelThomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
+* Re: the impossible wheelThomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
|`* Re: the impossible wheelThomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
| +* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| |+* Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
| ||+- Re: the impossible wheelThomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
| ||`* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| || `- Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
| |`- Re: the impossible wheelThomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
| `* Re: the impossible wheelSam Kaloxylos
|  `* Re: the impossible wheelThomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
|   +* Re: the impossible wheelSam Kaloxylos
|   |`* Re: the impossible wheelPaul Alsing
|   | `- Re: the impossible wheelKye Egonidis
|   `- Re: the impossible wheelSn!pe
+* Re: the impossible wheelSylvia Else
|+- Re: the impossible wheelKye Egonidis
|`* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
| `- Re: the impossible wheelSylvia Else
`* Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin
 `* Re: the impossible wheelRichD
  `- Re: the impossible wheelOdd Bodkin

Pages:123
Re: the impossible wheel

<8689c9d0-14e2-401a-b6eb-b3816591a7b8n@googlegroups.com>

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Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 06:47:36 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
From: pnals...@gmail.com (Paul Alsing)
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 by: Paul Alsing - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 13:47 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-7, Sam Kaloxylos wrote:

> Learn engilsh, idiot.

Now that is ironic...

Re: the impossible wheel

<5aded9bb-a2e6-42ff-99bf-a3c835badd7en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
From: r_delane...@yahoo.com (RichD)
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 by: RichD - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:32 UTC

On April 21, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> The knee is moving forward relative to the
>>>>> road. The foot is moving backward relative to the knee. And in fact, any
>>>>> slo-mo video of a runner’s motion will show you that the motion of the foot
>>>>> in the last vertical inch is downward, not forward or backward.
>>> https://youtu.be/XV2vIEVCwzE.
>>> Note that when the runner’s foot lands on the pavement, it
>>> is not moving horizontally with respect to the road and it IS moving
>>> horizontally backwards relative to the knee.
>>> Then after you’ve LOOKED, tell me that runners don’t actually
>>> move that way and they instead move the way you describe.
>
>> You hallucinate.
>> The shin is oriented vertically, but doesn't fall 'vertical',
>> that's an illusion. The shin is moving FORWARD, relative
>> to the road, at impact. As minimal sense tells us.
>
> You can’t read. I said FOOT, not shin. The shin is changing angle..

oh
So it isn't about the shin's position or speed, but its CHANGING
ANGLE (with respect to what...)

Anyway, the shin doesn't really matter, it's all about the FOOT.
Which is independent of the shin, which is independent of the
hip, which is independent of the body's center of mass. Which
doesn't lose momentum and energy on every step.

Does your head shrinker subscribe to this group?

>> However, it's interesting that an elite runner lands flat,
>> unlike the recreational runner.
>> But his foot immediately rolls onto the toes, in continuous
>> motion. He doesn't land like a stone statue,
>
> I never said the foot remains rigid.
> But the shoe does not have to be slid to a stop by the road, and the foot
> inside the shoe does not have to be slid to a stop by the insole.

?
I can't decode that statement, but maybe your head shrinker can -

Now, pop quiz:
Why does a Cadillac get lower fuel mileage than a Camry, in city driving?
Why is a fat man slower than a thin man, in a foot race?

Guess what: same answer, both questions.
Seventh grade level physics, Bod -

--
Rich

Re: the impossible wheel

<0ac7e3b8-b780-429c-8595-0a14d0fd56den@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
From: r_delane...@yahoo.com (RichD)
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 by: RichD - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:36 UTC

On April 21, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>> i) The bicycle travels along the road.
>> ii) It accomplishes this because it's in contact with the road.
>> (a bike in midair doesn't go far)
>> iii) The part in contact with the road - the flat track - doesn't
>> slide; i.e. NO MOTION RELATIVE TO THE ROAD
>> Thus we see a contradiction. That defines a paradox.
>
> There’s no contradiction.
> The CENTER of the wheel travels relative to the road.
> The BOTTOM of the wheel does not travel relative to the road.
> The TOP of the wheel travels even faster than the center of the wheel, relative to the road.

oh
The various parts of the wheel travel at different speeds, relative
to the street. OK

So, the vehicle arrives at Main and First St. The wheel BOTTOM
remains there, as it doesn't travel, relative to the road.

A minute later, the wheel CENTER reaches Main and Second. At the
same moment, the TOP reaches Main and Third, because it travels
twice as fast as the center.

Well, that clears it right up.... just one question: would you mind
if I faxed a copy of this to your head shrinker, or would that be
an invasion of privacy?

--
Rich

Re: the impossible wheel

<t3v0b5$b7f$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bodkin...@gmail.com (Odd Bodkin)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:40:21 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Odd Bodkin - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:40 UTC

RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On April 21, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> i) The bicycle travels along the road.
>>> ii) It accomplishes this because it's in contact with the road.
>>> (a bike in midair doesn't go far)
>>> iii) The part in contact with the road - the flat track - doesn't
>>> slide; i.e. NO MOTION RELATIVE TO THE ROAD
>>> Thus we see a contradiction. That defines a paradox.
>>
>> There’s no contradiction.
>> The CENTER of the wheel travels relative to the road.
>> The BOTTOM of the wheel does not travel relative to the road.
>> The TOP of the wheel travels even faster than the center of the wheel,
>> relative to the road.
>
> oh
> The various parts of the wheel travel at different speeds, relative
> to the street. OK
>
> So, the vehicle arrives at Main and First St. The wheel BOTTOM
> remains there, as it doesn't travel, relative to the road.
>
> A minute later, the wheel CENTER reaches Main and Second. At the
> same moment, the TOP reaches Main and Third, because it travels
> twice as fast as the center.
>
> Well, that clears it right up.... just one question: would you mind
> if I faxed a copy of this to your head shrinker, or would that be
> an invasion of privacy?
>
> --
> Rich
>

Tch.

https://images.app.goo.gl/GPwxnTnYbfdhE3pa6

--
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Re: the impossible wheel

<573946d8-e68b-4419-9c20-5bc12040a33dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
From: r_delane...@yahoo.com (RichD)
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 by: RichD - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 19:41 UTC

On April 21, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Consider a rolling wheel, with rubber tire. It's non-ideal,
>> the rubber flattens at the bottom, maybe an inch.
>> The tire, over the contact interval, works as planned:
>> it doesn't slide, relative to the road.
>
> https://i.stack.imgur.com/EhSDb.png

I have no problem with that diagram.

It presents a model of a wheel rotating around a point on the
road, rather than around its axle;  a sequence of points, to be
precise.  Thus it moves along the road. (or, my preference, the road
moves along the wheel circumference)
That's a good lesson.

But it's inapposite here.  It's IDEAL, contacting the road at a
single point.  The paradox arises from considering the real
case, where the rubber flattens, forming a track.  The track
doesn't move relative to the road, yada yada-

--
Rich

Re: the impossible wheel

<t3v5n3$ep2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: bodkin...@gmail.com (Odd Bodkin)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 21:12:03 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Odd Bodkin - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 21:12 UTC

RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On April 21, bodk...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Consider a rolling wheel, with rubber tire. It's non-ideal,
>>> the rubber flattens at the bottom, maybe an inch.
>>> The tire, over the contact interval, works as planned:
>>> it doesn't slide, relative to the road.
>>
>> https://i.stack.imgur.com/EhSDb.png
>
> I have no problem with that diagram.
>
> It presents a model of a wheel rotating around a point on the
> road,

No. You DO have a problem with the diagram.
The figure at right in the image is a snapshot of the velocities at various
points of a wheel ROLLING on the road. Not rotating about a point on the
road.

Look at it again.

> rather than around its axle;  a sequence of points, to be
> precise.  Thus it moves along the road. (or, my preference, the road
> moves along the wheel circumference)
> That's a good lesson.
>
> But it's inapposite here.  It's IDEAL, contacting the road at a
> single point.  The paradox arises from considering the real
> case, where the rubber flattens, forming a track.  The track
> doesn't move relative to the road, yada yada-

Flattening isn’t needed. A steel wheel or a diamond wheel will have the
same vectors.

>
> --
> Rich
>

--
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Re: the impossible wheel

<pan$32211$92371c7f$28b55142$7634a784@xuelxjxk.io>

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From: qli...@xuelxjxk.io (Kye Egonidis)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 21:30:47 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Kye Egonidis - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 21:30 UTC

Paul Alsing wrote:

> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 3:50:16 PM UTC-7, Sam Kaloxylos wrote:
>
>> Learn engilsh, idiot.
>
> Now that is ironic...

you mean, you, the snipping impertinent.

But I start loving Trump already. What a proper punch line, ignored by
everybody that time.

TRUMP TELLS NAZI ZELENSKY
https://www.bitchute.com/video/USkUUfltydCA/

Re: the impossible wheel

<pan$75118$c1578675$a223711a$5404d702@xuelxjxk.io>

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From: qli...@xuelxjxk.io (Kye Egonidis)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 22:18:04 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Kye Egonidis - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 22:18 UTC

Sylvia Else wrote:

>> It was a nice ride, for 13 billion years, but the party's over -
>> -- Rich
>
> You've already posited that the tyre is not rigid, but to some extent
> elastic. So the axle can move by compressing parts of the tyre and
> stretching others.
> As aside, not all the energy put into the compression and stretching is
> recovered. Some ends up as heat. Welcome to rolling resistance.

just to realize the spread of the braindead in capitalist *moon_landing*
america. Instead of laughing, they applaud in standing ovations.

Biden - 'In the US military, every vehicle is going to be climate-
friendly. We're spending billions
https://www.bitchute.com/video/V08D0IobDQd0/

Re: the impossible wheel

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Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
From: r_delane...@yahoo.com (RichD)
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 by: RichD - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 22:33 UTC

On April 21, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> Consider a rolling wheel, with rubber tire. It's non-ideal,
>> the rubber flattens at the bottom, maybe an inch.
>
> You've already posited that the tyre is not rigid, but to some extent
> elastic. So the axle can move by compressing parts of the tyre and
> stretching others.

That's the right idea.

Specifically, all the action occurs at the lead and trailing
vertices of the rubber track, as it deforms. We see that
all relative motion between road and tire occurs there, at
the corners; dx/dt ≠ 0 only at those points.

The flat track continually pushes the bike forward, but
contributes nothing to relative motion (or explanation);
dx/dt = 0. That's the essence of the paradox.

Then, viewed from inside the wheel, we see the road traveling
around the wheel, in a state of continuous rotation.

It's hard to picture and explain, in text only, without diagrams.

--
Rich

Re: the impossible wheel

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From: syl...@email.invalid (Sylvia Else)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: the impossible wheel
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 10:15:51 +1000
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 by: Sylvia Else - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 00:15 UTC

On 24-Apr-22 8:33 am, RichD wrote:
> On April 21, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> Consider a rolling wheel, with rubber tire. It's non-ideal,
>>> the rubber flattens at the bottom, maybe an inch.
>>
>> You've already posited that the tyre is not rigid, but to some extent
>> elastic. So the axle can move by compressing parts of the tyre and
>> stretching others.
>
> That's the right idea.
>
> Specifically, all the action occurs at the lead and trailing
> vertices of the rubber track, as it deforms. We see that
> all relative motion between road and tire occurs there, at
> the corners; dx/dt ≠ 0 only at those points.
>
> The flat track continually pushes the bike forward, but
> contributes nothing to relative motion (or explanation);
> dx/dt = 0. That's the essence of the paradox.
>
> Then, viewed from inside the wheel, we see the road traveling
> around the wheel, in a state of continuous rotation.
>
> It's hard to picture and explain, in text only, without diagrams.
>
> --
> Rich

If it were true that none of the part in contact with the road moves
relative to the road, then there would be no wear on the tyre.

The assumption is not supported by theory anyway. A small area of rubber
will move relative to the road surface as soon as the normal force
reduces to the point where friction is insufficient to prevent that
small area of rubber from moving in response to the force it's
experiencing as a result of the deformation of the tyre.

The forces operating on a rolling tyre are complicated, and you've
failed to envisage them properly. Your attempt to show that the theory
is flawed fails miserably.

Sylvia.

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