On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
>> (:-(
>
>That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
>shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
>bike had them as well.
>
>I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
>Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
>NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
>the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
>climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
>
>Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use those
>now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
>difficult athletic trick.

Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?

On 8/18/2023 12:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> On 8/18/2023 11:40 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:36:02 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 8/18/2023 11:18 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier
>>>>
>>>> Me too, but now I find the trigger shifter to be even handier....
>>>
>>> +1
>>> I made that discovery over 50 years ago
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/53sports.jpg
>>
>> I had one of those about that time, but I don't recall the brand. We
>> called them "english racers." It had a three speed hub, and I don't
>> remember how I shifted it.
>
> flick of the finger:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/SMALTRIG.JPG

That's what's on my 3 speed. Also on two other kid's 3 speeds in the
extended family.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/18/2023 3:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>
> I’ve ridden up hills up single speeds and bikes with all sorts of shifters
> and equally down stuff with all sorts of brakes and technology, it is
> possible to like admire stuff but also realise that it’s been superseded by
> better technology be that useable or function.

There are different metrics for "better technology." As I've said
before, the bicycling industry is chasing ever-diminishing returns, and
has been for a very long time.

So are the magic gearshift gloves Andrew linked recently "better
technology"? How about electronic shifting? I don't think it's better to
be tied to just one manufacturer's (entire) gearing system; or to have
equipment on my bike that is mechanically and electronically
incomprehensible; and that can't possibly be repaired on the road; and
that may be totally abandoned by the manufacturer when their next
version of "better" arrives. Especially if the main benefit balancing
all those detriments is a shift that happens in, oh, 0.3 seconds instead
of 0.5 seconds.

But YMMV, as always.

BTW, the guy I rode with today was on a titanium road bike. He used
downtube shifters, set to friction because he'd swapped cassettes for
one with an extra and larger cog. He had no trouble that he mentioned or
that I noticed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 17:25:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/18/2023 3:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>
>> I’ve ridden up hills up single speeds and bikes with all sorts of shifters
>> and equally down stuff with all sorts of brakes and technology, it is
>> possible to like admire stuff but also realise that it’s been superseded by
>> better technology be that useable or function.
>
>There are different metrics for "better technology." As I've said
>before, the bicycling industry is chasing ever-diminishing returns, and
>has been for a very long time.
>
>So are the magic gearshift gloves Andrew linked recently "better
>technology"? How about electronic shifting? I don't think it's better to
>be tied to just one manufacturer's (entire) gearing system; or to have
>equipment on my bike that is mechanically and electronically
>incomprehensible; and that can't possibly be repaired on the road; and
>that may be totally abandoned by the manufacturer when their next
>version of "better" arrives. Especially if the main benefit balancing
>all those detriments is a shift that happens in, oh, 0.3 seconds instead
>of 0.5 seconds.
>
>But YMMV, as always.
>
>BTW, the guy I rode with today was on a titanium road bike. He used
>downtube shifters, set to friction because he'd swapped cassettes for
>one with an extra and larger cog. He had no trouble that he mentioned or
>that I noticed.

Relax. Nobody is going to imake you use stuff that you don't
understand.

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 2:44:32 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
> >> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
> >> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
> >> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
> >> (:-(
> >
> > That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
> > shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
> > bike had them as well.
> >
> > I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
> > Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
> > NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
> > the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
> > climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
> >
> > Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use those
> > now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
> > difficult athletic trick.
> >
> Depends on the gradient very few folks would ride 20/30% grades one handed
> out of choice. And is significantly more of faff Down tube to bar end
> shifters, as clearly you know as why else would you fit them but that they
> are easier to use.
>
> I’ve ridden up hills up single speeds and bikes with all sorts of shifters
> and equally down stuff with all sorts of brakes and technology, it is
> possible to like admire stuff but also realise that it’s been superseded by
> better technology be that useable or function.
>
> After all I ride a Gravel bike, a Hardtail MTB is cheaper more capable on a
> lot of terrain but it doesn’t have the Ride experience.
>
> Roger Merriman

In a lot of ways I prefer my Campagnolo 9-speed Ergo levers over the bar-end shifters I used to have on that bike. the Ergos don't have cables out where they can get snagged nor do I have to worry about the bar-end shifter hitting the toptube.

Cheers

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 8/18/2023 3:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>
>> I’ve ridden up hills up single speeds and bikes with all sorts of shifters
>> and equally down stuff with all sorts of brakes and technology, it is
>> possible to like admire stuff but also realise that it’s been superseded by
>> better technology be that useable or function.
>
> There are different metrics for "better technology." As I've said
> before, the bicycling industry is chasing ever-diminishing returns, and
> has been for a very long time.

Not sure about that, possibly on the road side but certainly the gravel and
MTB have seen some fairly decent gains and seem to be moving relatively
quickly.

>
> So are the magic gearshift gloves Andrew linked recently "better
> technology"? How about electronic shifting? I don't think it's better to
> be tied to just one manufacturer's (entire) gearing system; or to have
> equipment on my bike that is mechanically and electronically
> incomprehensible; and that can't possibly be repaired on the road; and
> that may be totally abandoned by the manufacturer when their next
> version of "better" arrives. Especially if the main benefit balancing
> all those detriments is a shift that happens in, oh, 0.3 seconds instead
> of 0.5 seconds.

Magic gloves are speculation technology really, and with friction and down
tube in particular it’s more about control or rather lack of it, than the
sluggishness of the shift per say. On my loop of Stonehenge/imber Ranges
such shifting would of been a royal pain, would electronic have been
better? That probably is into marginal gains though folks do swear about
it, so perhaps I’ll change my mind after use?
>
> But YMMV, as always.
>
> BTW, the guy I rode with today was on a titanium road bike. He used
> downtube shifters, set to friction because he'd swapped cassettes for
> one with an extra and larger cog. He had no trouble that he mentioned or
> that I noticed.
>
Yes some folks particularly retro/tech fiddlers have use as you can make
stuff work as friction doesn’t care to a point.

That some folks do doesn’t make a good idea how ever happy they may be!

Roger Merriman

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 6:07:19 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> In a lot of ways I prefer my Campagnolo 9-speed Ergo levers over the bar-end shifters I used to have on that bike. the Ergos don't have cables out where they can get snagged nor do I have to worry about the bar-end shifter hitting the toptube.

For many years I've run the cables from my bar-end shifters under the handlebar tape. There's almost
no cable exposed to snag on anything.

I suppose it may increase shifting effort slightly, but if so, it's nothing I notice.

- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
>>> (:-(
>>
>>That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
>>shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
>>bike had them as well.
>>
>>I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
>>Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
>>NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
>>the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
>>climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
>>
>>Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use those
>>now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
>>difficult athletic trick.
>
>
>Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
>just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?

Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
"maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
shifting.

No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!

Or, perhaps he's taken the Tommy path and (what's the polite term?)
prevaricates?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 08:44:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
>>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
>>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
>>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
>>>> (:-(
>>>
>>>That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
>>>shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
>>>bike had them as well.
>>>
>>>I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
>>>Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
>>>NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
>>>the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
>>>climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
>>>
>>>Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use those
>>>now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
>>>difficult athletic trick.
>>
>>
>>Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
>>just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
>
>Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
>"maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
>was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
>make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
>straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
>further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
>shifting.
>
>No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
>equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
>
>Or, perhaps he's taken the Tommy path and (what's the polite term?)
>prevaricates?

After admitting that bar end shifters are handier than downtube
shifters, he can't attack people who've made the same decision, so, in
order to continue claiming his imagined superiority, he must invent
imaginary claims that downtube shifting is a difficult athletic trick.
I suspect that most, if not all the people who post to this forum have
used downtube shifters, and I haven't seen any declarations about it
being a difficult athletic trick.

It's not easy pretending to be outstanding when he knows he's not. In
other words, you can't polish a turd.

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 11:40:07 PM UTC+2, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 17:25:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 8/18/2023 3:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>
> >> I’ve ridden up hills up single speeds and bikes with all sorts of shifters
> >> and equally down stuff with all sorts of brakes and technology, it is
> >> possible to like admire stuff but also realise that it’s been superseded by
> >> better technology be that useable or function.
> >
> >There are different metrics for "better technology." As I've said
> >before, the bicycling industry is chasing ever-diminishing returns, and
> >has been for a very long time.
> >
> >So are the magic gearshift gloves Andrew linked recently "better
> >technology"? How about electronic shifting? I don't think it's better to
> >be tied to just one manufacturer's (entire) gearing system; or to have
> >equipment on my bike that is mechanically and electronically
> >incomprehensible; and that can't possibly be repaired on the road; and
> >that may be totally abandoned by the manufacturer when their next
> >version of "better" arrives. Especially if the main benefit balancing
> >all those detriments is a shift that happens in, oh, 0.3 seconds instead
> >of 0.5 seconds.
> >
> >But YMMV, as always.
> >
> >BTW, the guy I rode with today was on a titanium road bike. He used
> >downtube shifters, set to friction because he'd swapped cassettes for
> >one with an extra and larger cog. He had no trouble that he mentioned or
> >that I noticed.
> Relax. Nobody is going to imake you use stuff that you don't
> understand.

Going from DT friction shifters to DT index shifters: result anyone one could use derailleur’s gear systems.
Going from DT index shifters to brifters or rapid fire shifters result: people shift way more often resulting in a more pleasant ride.
Going from STI/Ergo to electronic shifting result: people shift even more often, got rid of maintenance of the cables, re-adjustment of derailleurs.
Yes we in this NG got along with DT friction shifters but ask anyone if they would go back to a previous system except that idiot Frank came up with.
Don’t discard a good working system, but if you buy new for one reason or the other then……I would say go with the flow within your budget.

Lou

On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 04:23:30 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 11:40:07?PM UTC+2, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 17:25:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 8/18/2023 3:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I’ve ridden up hills up single speeds and bikes with all sorts of shifters
>> >> and equally down stuff with all sorts of brakes and technology, it is
>> >> possible to like admire stuff but also realise that it’s been superseded by
>> >> better technology be that useable or function.
>> >
>> >There are different metrics for "better technology." As I've said
>> >before, the bicycling industry is chasing ever-diminishing returns, and
>> >has been for a very long time.
>> >
>> >So are the magic gearshift gloves Andrew linked recently "better
>> >technology"? How about electronic shifting? I don't think it's better to
>> >be tied to just one manufacturer's (entire) gearing system; or to have
>> >equipment on my bike that is mechanically and electronically
>> >incomprehensible; and that can't possibly be repaired on the road; and
>> >that may be totally abandoned by the manufacturer when their next
>> >version of "better" arrives. Especially if the main benefit balancing
>> >all those detriments is a shift that happens in, oh, 0.3 seconds instead
>> >of 0.5 seconds.
>> >
>> >But YMMV, as always.
>> >
>> >BTW, the guy I rode with today was on a titanium road bike. He used
>> >downtube shifters, set to friction because he'd swapped cassettes for
>> >one with an extra and larger cog. He had no trouble that he mentioned or
>> >that I noticed.
>> Relax. Nobody is going to imake you use stuff that you don't
>> understand.
>
>Going from DT friction shifters to DT index shifters: result anyone one could use derailleur’s gear systems.
>Going from DT index shifters to brifters or rapid fire shifters result: people shift way more often resulting in a more pleasant ride.
>Going from STI/Ergo to electronic shifting result: people shift even more often, got rid of maintenance of the cables, re-adjustment of derailleurs.
>Yes we in this NG got along with DT friction shifters but ask anyone if they would go back to a previous system except that idiot Frank came up with.
>Don’t discard a good working system, but if you buy new for one reason or the other then……I would say go with the flow within your budget.
>
>
>
>Lou

+1

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:55:08 AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 08:44:38 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
> ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >
> >>On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
> >>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
> >>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
> >>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
> >>>> (:-(
> >>>
> >>>That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
> >>>shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
> >>>bike had them as well.
> >>>
> >>>I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
> >>>Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
> >>>NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
> >>>the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
> >>>climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
> >>>
> >>>Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use those
> >>>now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
> >>>difficult athletic trick.
> >>
> >>
> >>Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
> >>just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
> >
> >Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
> >"maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
> >was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
> >make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
> >straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
> >further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
> >shifting.
> >
> >No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
> >equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
> >
> >Or, perhaps he's taken the Tommy path and (what's the polite term?)
> >prevaricates?
> After admitting that bar end shifters are handier than downtube
> shifters, he can't attack people who've made the same decision, so, in
> order to continue claiming his imagined superiority, he must invent
> imaginary claims that downtube shifting is a difficult athletic trick.
> I suspect that most, if not all the people who post to this forum have
> used downtube shifters, and I haven't seen any declarations about it
> being a difficult athletic trick.

Wow, dumbass, someone did suggest reaching a downtube shifter can be incredibly difficult to the extent that it might be considered a demonstration of athleticism. Franks comment was a mild extrapolation on that. However, in your bizarre fetish to get Franks attention you chose to overlook that it was you new best friend johnny who actually suggested it takes enough skill, concentration, and physical effort that might easily be quantified as an "athletic trick".

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qMylsLSMx_A/m/WG0jL1IgBAAJ
"When you are panting up a steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift"

and because we know you're fully on-board with how floriduh is dumbing down their educational system to force feed a specific government sanctioned agenda, let me help you by highlighting Johns comment:

"it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift"

Then johnny reiterated how difficult he thinks it is here after frank suggested it isn't an athletic trick.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qMylsLSMx_A/m/kjLRXVtuBAAJ

"Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and shifting.

No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!"

Now, all of a sudden, this turns into you two old coots trying to claim "no one ever said downtube shifting was difficult'.

FloriDUH strikes again.

>
> It's not easy pretending to be outstanding when he knows he's not. In
> other words, you can't polish a turd.

Exactly, which is why you keep posting stupid inane bulllshit like 'no one ever suggested it was some sort of athletic trick' when the guy you're responding to is the one that wrote that it was. You exemplify floriduhs steady march towards stupid.

This unhealthy obsession you have with Frank might even qualify for the very thing you floriduh dumbassess are passing legislation against.

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 4:23:33 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 11:40:07 PM UTC+2, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 17:25:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > >On 8/18/2023 3:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I’ve ridden up hills up single speeds and bikes with all sorts of shifters
> > >> and equally down stuff with all sorts of brakes and technology, it is
> > >> possible to like admire stuff but also realise that it’s been superseded by
> > >> better technology be that useable or function.
> > >
> > >There are different metrics for "better technology." As I've said
> > >before, the bicycling industry is chasing ever-diminishing returns, and
> > >has been for a very long time.
> > >
> > >So are the magic gearshift gloves Andrew linked recently "better
> > >technology"? How about electronic shifting? I don't think it's better to
> > >be tied to just one manufacturer's (entire) gearing system; or to have
> > >equipment on my bike that is mechanically and electronically
> > >incomprehensible; and that can't possibly be repaired on the road; and
> > >that may be totally abandoned by the manufacturer when their next
> > >version of "better" arrives. Especially if the main benefit balancing
> > >all those detriments is a shift that happens in, oh, 0.3 seconds instead
> > >of 0.5 seconds.
> > >
> > >But YMMV, as always.
> > >
> > >BTW, the guy I rode with today was on a titanium road bike. He used
> > >downtube shifters, set to friction because he'd swapped cassettes for
> > >one with an extra and larger cog. He had no trouble that he mentioned or
> > >that I noticed.
> > Relax. Nobody is going to imake you use stuff that you don't
> > understand.
> Going from DT friction shifters to DT index shifters: result anyone one could use derailleur’s gear systems.
> Going from DT index shifters to brifters or rapid fire shifters result: people shift way more often resulting in a more pleasant ride.
> Going from STI/Ergo to electronic shifting result: people shift even more often, got rid of maintenance of the cables, re-adjustment of derailleurs.
> Yes we in this NG got along with DT friction shifters but ask anyone if they would go back to a previous system except that idiot Frank came up with..
> Don’t discard a good working system, but if you buy new for one reason or the other then……I would say go with the flow within your budget.
>
>
>
> Lou

Shimano makes lower end 9 speed brifters in China that are of more than good enough quality to make manual shifting so easy and the gear separations so good that if you were changing wheels to a freehub wheel that you'd be stupid not to go ahead and change the entire bike over. Plainly Frank wouldn't. But he is buried so deep in the dark ages that nothing he says or does should have the slightest effect on the real world

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 4:30:08 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail..com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:55:08 AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
> > On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 08:44:38 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
> > ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> > >
> > >>On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > >><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
> > >>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
> > >>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
> > >>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
> > >>>> (:-(
> > >>>
> > >>>That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
> > >>>shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
> > >>>bike had them as well.
> > >>>
> > >>>I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
> > >>>Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
> > >>>NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
> > >>>the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
> > >>>climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
> > >>>
> > >>>Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use those
> > >>>now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
> > >>>difficult athletic trick.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
> > >>just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
> > >
> > >Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
> > >"maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
> > >was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
> > >make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
> > >straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
> > >further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
> > >shifting.
> > >
> > >No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
> > >equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
> > >
> > >Or, perhaps he's taken the Tommy path and (what's the polite term?)
> > >prevaricates?
> > After admitting that bar end shifters are handier than downtube
> > shifters, he can't attack people who've made the same decision, so, in
> > order to continue claiming his imagined superiority, he must invent
> > imaginary claims that downtube shifting is a difficult athletic trick.
> > I suspect that most, if not all the people who post to this forum have
> > used downtube shifters, and I haven't seen any declarations about it
> > being a difficult athletic trick.
> Wow, dumbass, someone did suggest reaching a downtube shifter can be incredibly difficult to the extent that it might be considered a demonstration of athleticism. Franks comment was a mild extrapolation on that. However, in your bizarre fetish to get Franks attention you chose to overlook that it was you new best friend johnny who actually suggested it takes enough skill, concentration, and physical effort that might easily be quantified as an "athletic trick".
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qMylsLSMx_A/m/WG0jL1IgBAAJ
> "When you are panting up a steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift"
> and because we know you're fully on-board with how floriduh is dumbing down their educational system to force feed a specific government sanctioned agenda, let me help you by highlighting Johns comment:
> "it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift"
> Then johnny reiterated how difficult he thinks it is here after frank suggested it isn't an athletic trick.
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qMylsLSMx_A/m/kjLRXVtuBAAJ
>
> "Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and shifting.
> No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!"
> Now, all of a sudden, this turns into you two old coots trying to claim "no one ever said downtube shifting was difficult'.
>
> FloriDUH strikes again.
> >
> > It's not easy pretending to be outstanding when he knows he's not. In
> > other words, you can't polish a turd.
> Exactly, which is why you keep posting stupid inane bulllshit like 'no one ever suggested it was some sort of athletic trick' when the guy you're responding to is the one that wrote that it was. You exemplify floriduhs steady march towards stupid.
>
> This unhealthy obsession you have with Frank might even qualify for the very thing you floriduh dumbassess are passing legislation against.

You are the one with an entirely unhealthy interest in Krygowski. And Catrike as well. It is so unhealthy that you can't even spell the slate of Florida properly. I suggest you take those billions of dollars you're making as a production line engineer and get some psychological help.

On 8/18/2023 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
>>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
>>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
>>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
>>>> (:-(
>>>
>>> That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
>>> shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
>>> bike had them as well.
>>>
>>> I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
>>> Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
>>> NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
>>> the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
>>> climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
>>>
>>> Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use those
>>> now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
>>> difficult athletic trick.
>>
>>
>> Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
>> just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
>
> Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
> "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
> was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
> make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
> straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
> further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
> shifting.
>
> No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
> equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!

Well, I did push him up the hill, whatever you pretend. Actually, I
pushed him up a way, turned around and repeated the process with his
mom. Sorry if that seems overly amazing. That trip was in 1976, before I
used triple cranks, so the gearing was probably 47-34 or 37 gear inches.

I know I've stopped and re-started on steep hills before. With super-low
gears (i.e. triple cranks) the bigger challenge is sometimes getting up
enough speed to balance. It can be helpful to be sure no cars are
approaching, then to ride parallel to the slope, rather than steeply up.

And BTW, if someone did make the mistake of stalling out because of too
high of a gear, they could always change the gear while stopped. Move a
lever, lift the rear tire, turn the cranks, repeat as necessary. It's
not rocket science.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/19/2023 11:20 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/18/2023 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
>>>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
>>>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
>>>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
>>>>> (:-(
>>>>
>>>> That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
>>>> shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
>>>> bike had them as well.
>>>>
>>>> I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
>>>> Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
>>>> NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
>>>> the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
>>>> climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
>>>>
>>>> Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use
>>>> those
>>>> now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
>>>> difficult athletic trick.
>>>
>>>
>>> Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
>>> just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
>>
>> Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
>> "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
>> was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
>> make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
>> straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
>> further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
>> shifting.
>>
>> No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
>> equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
>
> Well, I did push him up the hill, whatever you pretend. Actually, I
> pushed him up a way, turned around and repeated the process with his
> mom. Sorry if that seems overly amazing. That trip was in 1976, before I
> used triple cranks, so the gearing was probably 47-34 or 37 gear inches.
>
> I know I've stopped and re-started on steep hills before. With super-low
> gears (i.e. triple cranks) the bigger challenge is sometimes getting up
> enough speed to balance. It can be helpful to be sure no cars are
> approaching, then to ride parallel to the slope, rather than steeply up.
>
> And BTW, if someone did make the mistake of stalling out because of too
> high of a gear, they could always change the gear while stopped. Move a
> lever, lift the rear tire, turn the cranks, repeat as necessary. It's
> not rocket science.

BTW, if you can get to a library with back issues of _Bicycling_
magazine, check out the January 1977 issue. The cover photo is mine,
showing our three loaded touring bikes in The Lake District in England.
I have other photos inside that edition.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/19/2023 10:20 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/18/2023 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains"
>>>>> and I
>>>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are
>>>>> panting up a
>>>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower
>>>>> gear I might make
>>>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach
>>>>> down to shift
>>>>> (:-(
>>>>
>>>> That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike
>>>> with downtube
>>>> shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and
>>>> first "good")
>>>> bike had them as well.
>>>>
>>>> I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping
>>>> gear around Loch
>>>> Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with
>>>> one hand. (The
>>>> NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I
>>>> later rode across
>>>> the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the
>>>> roads I've
>>>> climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when
>>>> needed.
>>>>
>>>> Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be
>>>> handier, so I use those
>>>> now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube
>>>> shifters isn't some
>>>> difficult athletic trick.
>>>
>>>
>>> Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic
>>> trick, or did you
>>> just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
>>
>> Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that
>> pretty well
>> "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and
>> discovered that he
>> was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower
>> gear he might
>> make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and
>> really
>> straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ...
>> little ...
>> further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the
>> bars and
>> shifting.
>>
>> No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded
>> with camping
>> equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
>
> Well, I did push him up the hill, whatever you pretend.
> Actually, I pushed him up a way, turned around and repeated
> the process with his mom. Sorry if that seems overly
> amazing. That trip was in 1976, before I used triple cranks,
> so the gearing was probably 47-34 or 37 gear inches.
>
> I know I've stopped and re-started on steep hills before.
> With super-low gears (i.e. triple cranks) the bigger
> challenge is sometimes getting up enough speed to balance.
> It can be helpful to be sure no cars are approaching, then
> to ride parallel to the slope, rather than steeply up.
>
> And BTW, if someone did make the mistake of stalling out
> because of too high of a gear, they could always change the
> gear while stopped. Move a lever, lift the rear tire, turn
> the cranks, repeat as necessary. It's not rocket science.
>

Sounds too hard for today's cyclists. Isn't there a slope
mitigation app for their telephone?

On 8/19/2023 7:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 11:40:07 PM UTC+2, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 17:25:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/18/2023 3:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I’ve ridden up hills up single speeds and bikes with all sorts of shifters
>>>> and equally down stuff with all sorts of brakes and technology, it is
>>>> possible to like admire stuff but also realise that it’s been superseded by
>>>> better technology be that useable or function.
>>>
>>> There are different metrics for "better technology." As I've said
>>> before, the bicycling industry is chasing ever-diminishing returns, and
>>> has been for a very long time.
>>>
>>> So are the magic gearshift gloves Andrew linked recently "better
>>> technology"? How about electronic shifting? I don't think it's better to
>>> be tied to just one manufacturer's (entire) gearing system; or to have
>>> equipment on my bike that is mechanically and electronically
>>> incomprehensible; and that can't possibly be repaired on the road; and
>>> that may be totally abandoned by the manufacturer when their next
>>> version of "better" arrives. Especially if the main benefit balancing
>>> all those detriments is a shift that happens in, oh, 0.3 seconds instead
>>> of 0.5 seconds.
>>>
>>> But YMMV, as always.
>>>
>>> BTW, the guy I rode with today was on a titanium road bike. He used
>>> downtube shifters, set to friction because he'd swapped cassettes for
>>> one with an extra and larger cog. He had no trouble that he mentioned or
>>> that I noticed.
>> Relax. Nobody is going to imake you use stuff that you don't
>> understand.
>
> Going from DT friction shifters to DT index shifters: result anyone one could use derailleur’s gear systems.
> Going from DT index shifters to brifters or rapid fire shifters result: people shift way more often resulting in a more pleasant ride.
> Going from STI/Ergo to electronic shifting result: people shift even more often, got rid of maintenance of the cables, re-adjustment of derailleurs.

Let's complete the story!

"Going from electronic shifting with buttons to electronic shifting with
magic gloves. Can you believe there are retrogrouches who have to move
their hands to find the right button? How primitive!" ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 10:54:53 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 4:30:08 AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 3:55:08 AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
> > > On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 08:44:38 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
> > > ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > > >><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
> > > >>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
> > > >>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
> > > >>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
> > > >>>> (:-(
> > > >>>
> > > >>>That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
> > > >>>shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
> > > >>>bike had them as well.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
> > > >>>Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
> > > >>>NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
> > > >>>the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
> > > >>>climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use those
> > > >>>now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
> > > >>>difficult athletic trick.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
> > > >>just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
> > > >
> > > >Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
> > > >"maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
> > > >was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
> > > >make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
> > > >straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
> > > >further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
> > > >shifting.
> > > >
> > > >No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
> > > >equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
> > > >
> > > >Or, perhaps he's taken the Tommy path and (what's the polite term?)
> > > >prevaricates?
> > > After admitting that bar end shifters are handier than downtube
> > > shifters, he can't attack people who've made the same decision, so, in
> > > order to continue claiming his imagined superiority, he must invent
> > > imaginary claims that downtube shifting is a difficult athletic trick..
> > > I suspect that most, if not all the people who post to this forum have
> > > used downtube shifters, and I haven't seen any declarations about it
> > > being a difficult athletic trick.
> > Wow, dumbass, someone did suggest reaching a downtube shifter can be incredibly difficult to the extent that it might be considered a demonstration of athleticism. Franks comment was a mild extrapolation on that. However, in your bizarre fetish to get Franks attention you chose to overlook that it was you new best friend johnny who actually suggested it takes enough skill, concentration, and physical effort that might easily be quantified as an "athletic trick".
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qMylsLSMx_A/m/WG0jL1IgBAAJ
> > "When you are panting up a steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift"
> > and because we know you're fully on-board with how floriduh is dumbing down their educational system to force feed a specific government sanctioned agenda, let me help you by highlighting Johns comment:
> > "it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift"
> > Then johnny reiterated how difficult he thinks it is here after frank suggested it isn't an athletic trick.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qMylsLSMx_A/m/kjLRXVtuBAAJ
> >
> > "Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and shifting.
> > No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!"
> > Now, all of a sudden, this turns into you two old coots trying to claim "no one ever said downtube shifting was difficult'.
> >
> > FloriDUH strikes again.
> > >
> > > It's not easy pretending to be outstanding when he knows he's not. In
> > > other words, you can't polish a turd.
> > Exactly, which is why you keep posting stupid inane bulllshit like 'no one ever suggested it was some sort of athletic trick' when the guy you're responding to is the one that wrote that it was. You exemplify floriduhs steady march towards stupid.
> >
> > This unhealthy obsession you have with Frank might even qualify for the very thing you floriduh dumbassess are passing legislation against.
>
> You are the one with an entirely unhealthy interest in Krygowski.

Sure sparky. and cat 4 cyclists routinely put out 2000 watts.

> And Catrike as well. It is so unhealthy that you can't even spell the slate of Florida properly.

IT's floriduh, the dumbshine state.

> I suggest you take those billions of dollars

I never claimed to be worth millions, stupid. That's your lie, not mine.

> you're making as a production line engineer

now I'm a "production line engineer"...My, what a varied career you've given me!

> and get some psychological help.

Says the guy with such great familiarity with prozac.

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 11:25:40 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/19/2023 10:20 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 8/18/2023 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
> >> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains"
> >>>>> and I
> >>>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are
> >>>>> panting up a
> >>>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower
> >>>>> gear I might make
> >>>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach
> >>>>> down to shift
> >>>>> (:-(
> >>>>
> >>>> That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike
> >>>> with downtube
> >>>> shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and
> >>>> first "good")
> >>>> bike had them as well.
> >>>>
> >>>> I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping
> >>>> gear around Loch
> >>>> Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with
> >>>> one hand. (The
> >>>> NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I
> >>>> later rode across
> >>>> the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the
> >>>> roads I've
> >>>> climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when
> >>>> needed.
> >>>>
> >>>> Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be
> >>>> handier, so I use those
> >>>> now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube
> >>>> shifters isn't some
> >>>> difficult athletic trick.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic
> >>> trick, or did you
> >>> just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
> >>
> >> Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that
> >> pretty well
> >> "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and
> >> discovered that he
> >> was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower
> >> gear he might
> >> make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and
> >> really
> >> straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ...
> >> little ...
> >> further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the
> >> bars and
> >> shifting.
> >>
> >> No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded
> >> with camping
> >> equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
> >
> > Well, I did push him up the hill, whatever you pretend.
> > Actually, I pushed him up a way, turned around and repeated
> > the process with his mom. Sorry if that seems overly
> > amazing. That trip was in 1976, before I used triple cranks,
> > so the gearing was probably 47-34 or 37 gear inches.
> >
> > I know I've stopped and re-started on steep hills before.
> > With super-low gears (i.e. triple cranks) the bigger
> > challenge is sometimes getting up enough speed to balance.
> > It can be helpful to be sure no cars are approaching, then
> > to ride parallel to the slope, rather than steeply up.
> >
> > And BTW, if someone did make the mistake of stalling out
> > because of too high of a gear, they could always change the
> > gear while stopped. Move a lever, lift the rear tire, turn
> > the cranks, repeat as necessary. It's not rocket science.
> >
> Sounds too hard for today's cyclists. Isn't there a slope
> mitigation app for their telephone?

Yes. When you select cycling as the transportation mode in Google Maps it gives alternate routes with the profile for each route shown, you can 'mitigate' the hills by avoiding them.

On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 11:24:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>BTW, if you can get to a library with back issues of _Bicycling_
>magazine, check out the January 1977 issue. The cover photo is mine,
>showing our three loaded touring bikes in The Lake District in England.
>I have other photos inside that edition.

<https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1245246-45-years-ago-january-1977-bicycling-magazine.html>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 11:20:47 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/18/2023 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
> > <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
> >>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
> >>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
> >>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
> >>>> (:-(
> >>>
> >>> That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
> >>> shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
> >>> bike had them as well.
> >>>
> >>> I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
> >>> Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
> >>> NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
> >>> the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
> >>> climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
> >>>
> >>> Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use those
> >>> now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
> >>> difficult athletic trick.
> >>
> >>
> >> Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
> >> just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
> >
> > Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
> > "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
> > was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
> > make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
> > straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
> > further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
> > shifting.
> >
> > No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
> > equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
> Well, I did push him up the hill, whatever you pretend. Actually, I
> pushed him up a way, turned around and repeated the process with his
> mom. Sorry if that seems overly amazing. That trip was in 1976, before I
> used triple cranks, so the gearing was probably 47-34 or 37 gear inches.
>
> I know I've stopped and re-started on steep hills before. With super-low
> gears (i.e. triple cranks) the bigger challenge is sometimes getting up
> enough speed to balance. It can be helpful to be sure no cars are
> approaching, then to ride parallel to the slope, rather than steeply up.
>
> And BTW, if someone did make the mistake of stalling out because of too
> high of a gear, they could always change the gear while stopped. Move a
> lever, lift the rear tire, turn the cranks, repeat as necessary. It's
> not rocket science.
>

Taking your hands off the bars while struggling up a steep hill on the road isn't a big deal unless you're out of the saddle. Your weight will be over the rear wheel so very little effort is required to control the front wheel, dropping a hand to shift doesn't take too much extra effort. BTW - I've done the 'pushing friends up a hill' trick a number of times. What you need to watch out for is erratic movements of the person you're pushing, not trying to keep your own line.

On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 11:24:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/19/2023 11:20 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/18/2023 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
>>>>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
>>>>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
>>>>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
>>>>>> (:-(
>>>>>
>>>>> That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
>>>>> shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
>>>>> bike had them as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
>>>>> Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
>>>>> NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
>>>>> the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
>>>>> climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use
>>>>> those
>>>>> now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
>>>>> difficult athletic trick.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
>>>> just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
>>>
>>> Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
>>> "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
>>> was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
>>> make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
>>> straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
>>> further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
>>> shifting.
>>>
>>> No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
>>> equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
>>
>> Well, I did push him up the hill, whatever you pretend. Actually, I
>> pushed him up a way, turned around and repeated the process with his
>> mom. Sorry if that seems overly amazing. That trip was in 1976, before I
>> used triple cranks, so the gearing was probably 47-34 or 37 gear inches.
>>
>> I know I've stopped and re-started on steep hills before. With super-low
>> gears (i.e. triple cranks) the bigger challenge is sometimes getting up
>> enough speed to balance. It can be helpful to be sure no cars are
>> approaching, then to ride parallel to the slope, rather than steeply up.
>>
>> And BTW, if someone did make the mistake of stalling out because of too
>> high of a gear, they could always change the gear while stopped. Move a
>> lever, lift the rear tire, turn the cranks, repeat as necessary. It's
>> not rocket science.
>
>BTW, if you can get to a library with back issues of _Bicycling_
>magazine, check out the January 1977 issue. The cover photo is mine,
>showing our three loaded touring bikes in The Lake District in England.
>I have other photos inside that edition.

So, your "look at me, look at me" mentality goes way back, huh?

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 12:33:19 PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 11:24:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 8/19/2023 11:20 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 8/18/2023 9:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 16:50:43 -0400, Catrike Rider
> >>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 11:24:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 8/17/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Then we moved to a country house "up in the mountains" and I
> >>>>>> discovered a use for handle bar shifters. When you are panting up a
> >>>>>> steep incline and "if I could just get into a lower gear I might make
> >>>>>> it" it is very difficult, to say the least, to reach down to shift
> >>>>>> (:-(
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That tale amazes me. I started my avid riding on a bike with downtube
> >>>>> shifters, because that's all there were. My second (and first "good")
> >>>>> bike had them as well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I remember riding that bike fully loaded with camping gear around Loch
> >>>>> Ness in Scotland, pushing my young son up the hills with one hand. (The
> >>>>> NW side is flat, the SE side is very hilly.) He and I later rode across
> >>>>> the Appalachians, whose slopes are far steeper than the roads I've
> >>>>> climbed in the Rockies. I was always able to shift when needed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Admittedly, I later found bar-end shifters to be handier, so I use
> >>>>> those
> >>>>> now on almost all my bikes. But reaching downtube shifters isn't some
> >>>>> difficult athletic trick.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Did someone suggest that it was a difficult athletic trick, or did you
> >>>> just decide to build another of your ridiculous strawmen?
> >>>
> >>> Apparently Frank as never started out up a hill that pretty well
> >>> "maxed" him out" in what ever gear he selected and discovered that he
> >>> was a gear or so too high and if he were only in a lower gear he might
> >>> make it all the way to the top. Both hands on the bars and really
> >>> straining, sweat dripping off his chin... just ... a ... little ...
> >>> further.... And has no problems taking one hand off the bars and
> >>> shifting.
> >>>
> >>> No sir! Super Frankie rides up the steepest hills loaded with camping
> >>> equipment and pushing his kid with one hand!
> >>
> >> Well, I did push him up the hill, whatever you pretend. Actually, I
> >> pushed him up a way, turned around and repeated the process with his
> >> mom. Sorry if that seems overly amazing. That trip was in 1976, before I
> >> used triple cranks, so the gearing was probably 47-34 or 37 gear inches.
> >>
> >> I know I've stopped and re-started on steep hills before. With super-low
> >> gears (i.e. triple cranks) the bigger challenge is sometimes getting up
> >> enough speed to balance. It can be helpful to be sure no cars are
> >> approaching, then to ride parallel to the slope, rather than steeply up.
> >>
> >> And BTW, if someone did make the mistake of stalling out because of too
> >> high of a gear, they could always change the gear while stopped. Move a
> >> lever, lift the rear tire, turn the cranks, repeat as necessary. It's
> >> not rocket science.
> >
> >BTW, if you can get to a library with back issues of _Bicycling_
> >magazine, check out the January 1977 issue. The cover photo is mine,
> >showing our three loaded touring bikes in The Lake District in England.
> >I have other photos inside that edition.
> So, your "look at me, look at me" mentality goes way back, huh?

Says the twerp constantly pulling on Franks pantleg for attention.

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 5:27:04 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/19/2023 7:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 11:40:07 PM UTC+2, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 17:25:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 8/18/2023 3:44 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I’ve ridden up hills up single speeds and bikes with all sorts of shifters
> >>>> and equally down stuff with all sorts of brakes and technology, it is
> >>>> possible to like admire stuff but also realise that it’s been superseded by
> >>>> better technology be that useable or function.
> >>>
> >>> There are different metrics for "better technology." As I've said
> >>> before, the bicycling industry is chasing ever-diminishing returns, and
> >>> has been for a very long time.
> >>>
> >>> So are the magic gearshift gloves Andrew linked recently "better
> >>> technology"? How about electronic shifting? I don't think it's better to
> >>> be tied to just one manufacturer's (entire) gearing system; or to have
> >>> equipment on my bike that is mechanically and electronically
> >>> incomprehensible; and that can't possibly be repaired on the road; and
> >>> that may be totally abandoned by the manufacturer when their next
> >>> version of "better" arrives. Especially if the main benefit balancing
> >>> all those detriments is a shift that happens in, oh, 0.3 seconds instead
> >>> of 0.5 seconds.
> >>>
> >>> But YMMV, as always.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, the guy I rode with today was on a titanium road bike. He used
> >>> downtube shifters, set to friction because he'd swapped cassettes for
> >>> one with an extra and larger cog. He had no trouble that he mentioned or
> >>> that I noticed.
> >> Relax. Nobody is going to imake you use stuff that you don't
> >> understand.
> >
> > Going from DT friction shifters to DT index shifters: result anyone one could use derailleur’s gear systems.
> > Going from DT index shifters to brifters or rapid fire shifters result: people shift way more often resulting in a more pleasant ride.
> > Going from STI/Ergo to electronic shifting result: people shift even more often, got rid of maintenance of the cables, re-adjustment of derailleurs.
> Let's complete the story!
>
> "Going from electronic shifting with buttons to electronic shifting with
> magic gloves. Can you believe there are retrogrouches who have to move
> their hands to find the right button? How primitive!" ;-)
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Let me do a prediction: those gloves will never hit the market so you don’t have to worry about them. The only advantage is that you can shift while riding no hands…mmm…

Lou