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tech / sci.physics.relativity / Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?

SubjectAuthor
* Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?Ricardo Jimenez
+- Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?Maciej Wozniak
+- Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?Stan Fultoni
`* Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?Tom Roberts
 `* Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?Ross A. Finlayson
  `- Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?Ross A. Finlayson

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Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?

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From: ricky...@earthlink.net (Ricardo Jimenez)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?
Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 10:14:42 -0400
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 by: Ricardo Jimenez - Wed, 4 May 2022 14:14 UTC

In special relativity, even if v is very close to 1, if x=tv is the
worldline of S' in the coordinate system of S, x'=-t'v is the
worldline of S in the coordinate system of S'. However, the
worldlines of light have the same form in both coordinate systems: x=t
maps into x'=t', x=-t maps into x'=-t'. It is not only speed but also
direction that is the same for both observers. Perhaps that is the
reason that Einstein gave two postulates for relativity instead of
one.

Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?

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Subject: Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Wed, 4 May 2022 15:46 UTC

On Wednesday, 4 May 2022 at 16:14:48 UTC+2, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> In special relativity, even if v is very close to 1, if x=tv is the
> worldline of S' in the coordinate system of S, x'=-t'v is the
> worldline of S in the coordinate system of S'.

And in marxism-leninism communism is the best.

Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?

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Subject: Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?
From: fultonis...@gmail.com (Stan Fultoni)
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 by: Stan Fultoni - Wed, 4 May 2022 16:27 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 7:14:48 AM UTC-7, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> In special relativity, even if v is very close to 1, if x=tv is the
> worldline of S' in the coordinate system of S, x'=-t'v is the
> worldline of S in the coordinate system of S'.

A coordinatesystem doesn;t have a worldline. What you were trying nto say
is that the worldline of the spatial origin of S' is x=vt in terms of S, and the
worldline of the spatial origin of S is x'=-vt' in terms of S', assuming their
spacetime origins coincide and their space axes are aligned. Of course,
you could just as well define the space axis of S' to be positive in the
opposite direction, in which case you would have x'=vt'. It's conventional
as to how you define your coordinates.

> It is not only speed but also direction that is the same for both observers.

Sign conventions are not significant, and furthermore it is not true in
general that directions are the same ith 3 space dimensions, because of
aberration. When talking about transformations, we rule out reflections
by requiring continuity.

> Perhaps that is the reason that Einstein gave two postulates for relativity
> instead of one.

Special relativity can't be based purely on the principle of relativity, because
Galilean relativity is also consistent with that principle. In order to distinguish
special relativity, an additional principle is required... essentially the inertia
of energy is what Galileo and Newton missed. That's the basic "second
principle", which can be expressed in terms of invariant light speed.

Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?

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 by: Tom Roberts - Wed, 4 May 2022 16:49 UTC

On 5/4/22 9:14 AM, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> In special relativity, even if v is very close to 1, if x=tv is the
> worldline of S' in the coordinate system of S, x'=-t'v is the
> worldline of S in the coordinate system of S'. However, the
> worldlines of light have the same form in both coordinate systems:
> x=t maps into x'=t', x=-t maps into x'=-t'.

Yes to all that, presuming that S and S' are pointlike observers at the
origins of their respective INERTIAL coordinate systems.

> It is not only speed but also direction that is the same for both
> observers.

Only because you are working in 1+1 dimensions. In 3+1 dimensions the
directions are not the same, except for light rays along the x/x' axis
(axis of relative motion between S and S').

> Perhaps that is the reason that Einstein gave two postulates for
> relativity instead of one.

No. He used two postulates because neither one is sufficient on its own.
He also assumed some unstated postulates that he discussed in 1907:
a) space is isotropic and homogeneous (relative to inertial
coordinates)
b) time is homogeneous (relative to inertial coordinates)
c) clocks and rulers have no memory of their history (in tick
rate and length)
Plus the definition of how coordinate systems apply to the manifold
used to model the world, the presumption that the manifold is flat, and
the choice to use the same units in all coordinate systems.

Tom Roberts

Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?

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Subject: Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?
From: ross.fin...@gmail.com (Ross A. Finlayson)
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 by: Ross A. Finlayson - Wed, 4 May 2022 17:48 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:49:17 AM UTC-7, tjrob137 wrote:
> On 5/4/22 9:14 AM, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> > In special relativity, even if v is very close to 1, if x=tv is the
> > worldline of S' in the coordinate system of S, x'=-t'v is the
> > worldline of S in the coordinate system of S'. However, the
> > worldlines of light have the same form in both coordinate systems:
> > x=t maps into x'=t', x=-t maps into x'=-t'.
> Yes to all that, presuming that S and S' are pointlike observers at the
> origins of their respective INERTIAL coordinate systems.
> > It is not only speed but also direction that is the same for both
> > observers.
> Only because you are working in 1+1 dimensions. In 3+1 dimensions the
> directions are not the same, except for light rays along the x/x' axis
> (axis of relative motion between S and S').
> > Perhaps that is the reason that Einstein gave two postulates for
> > relativity instead of one.
> No. He used two postulates because neither one is sufficient on its own.
> He also assumed some unstated postulates that he discussed in 1907:
> a) space is isotropic and homogeneous (relative to inertial
> coordinates)
> b) time is homogeneous (relative to inertial coordinates)
> c) clocks and rulers have no memory of their history (in tick
> rate and length)
> Plus the definition of how coordinate systems apply to the manifold
> used to model the world, the presumption that the manifold is flat, and
> the choice to use the same units in all coordinate systems.
>
> Tom Roberts

All cases of relativity - ....

Wave/particle and wave/resonance and wave/image -
parallel transport, it is a geometrodynamic rest - ....

Geometrodynamics ....

For "t" in Lagrangians ("parameterized by t, if not, 'in' t",
Lagrangian), then here there is this SR-Optics as STR,
where mostly here it's "GR and SR, ..., locally", where it
is according to general relativity the longer range effect,
while in "STR-Optics, or STR-Magnetics", ..., SR optics and
SR charge.

(In GR and GTR though with gravity out underneath.)

Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?

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Subject: Re: Has Anybody Here Wondered Why?
From: ross.fin...@gmail.com (Ross A. Finlayson)
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 by: Ross A. Finlayson - Thu, 5 May 2022 15:00 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 10:48:22 AM UTC-7, Ross A. Finlayson wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:49:17 AM UTC-7, tjrob137 wrote:
> > On 5/4/22 9:14 AM, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> > > In special relativity, even if v is very close to 1, if x=tv is the
> > > worldline of S' in the coordinate system of S, x'=-t'v is the
> > > worldline of S in the coordinate system of S'. However, the
> > > worldlines of light have the same form in both coordinate systems:
> > > x=t maps into x'=t', x=-t maps into x'=-t'.
> > Yes to all that, presuming that S and S' are pointlike observers at the
> > origins of their respective INERTIAL coordinate systems.
> > > It is not only speed but also direction that is the same for both
> > > observers.
> > Only because you are working in 1+1 dimensions. In 3+1 dimensions the
> > directions are not the same, except for light rays along the x/x' axis
> > (axis of relative motion between S and S').
> > > Perhaps that is the reason that Einstein gave two postulates for
> > > relativity instead of one.
> > No. He used two postulates because neither one is sufficient on its own.
> > He also assumed some unstated postulates that he discussed in 1907:
> > a) space is isotropic and homogeneous (relative to inertial
> > coordinates)
> > b) time is homogeneous (relative to inertial coordinates)
> > c) clocks and rulers have no memory of their history (in tick
> > rate and length)
> > Plus the definition of how coordinate systems apply to the manifold
> > used to model the world, the presumption that the manifold is flat, and
> > the choice to use the same units in all coordinate systems.
> >
> > Tom Roberts
> All cases of relativity - ....
>
> Wave/particle and wave/resonance and wave/image -
> parallel transport, it is a geometrodynamic rest - ....
>
> Geometrodynamics ....
>
> For "t" in Lagrangians ("parameterized by t, if not, 'in' t",
> Lagrangian), then here there is this SR-Optics as STR,
> where mostly here it's "GR and SR, ..., locally", where it
> is according to general relativity the longer range effect,
> while in "STR-Optics, or STR-Magnetics", ..., SR optics and
> SR charge.
>
> (In GR and GTR though with gravity out underneath.)

Of course it requires being all mathematical, ..., in terms of
"this unified physics has a mathematics".

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