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To Perl, or not to Perl, that is the kvetching. -- Larry Wall in <199801200310.TAA11670@wall.org>


tech / sci.physics.relativity / Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

SubjectAuthor
* Aioe.orgThe Starmaker
+* Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
|+* Re: Aioe.orgThe Starmaker
||+- Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
||`- Re: Aioe.orgThe Starmaker
|`* Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
| `* Re: Aioe.orgRoss A. Finlayson
|  `* Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
|   +* Re: Aioe.orgPaparios
|   |`- Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
|   `* Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
|    `* Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|     `* Re: Aioe.orgwhodat
|      +* Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|      |`* Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
|      | `- Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|      +* Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
|      |+- Re: Aioe.orgRoss A. Finlayson
|      |`* Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
|      | `* Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
|      |  `* Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
|      |   +* Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
|      |   |+* Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityDono.
|      |   ||+* Re:Richard Hertz
|      |   |||`* Utter cretin Dick Heratz keeps on eating shitDono.
|      |   ||| `* Re: Utter cretin Dick Heratz keeps on eating shitRichard Hertz
|      |   |||  `* Re: Utter cretin Dick Heratz keeps on eating shitDono.
|      |   |||   `- Re: Utter cretin Dick Heratz keeps on eating shitMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||+- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityThe Starmaker
|      |   ||`* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   || `* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityDono.
|      |   ||  +* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||  |+* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityDono.
|      |   ||  ||+* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||  |||+- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityDono.
|      |   ||  |||`- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||  ||`* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||  || +* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityDono.
|      |   ||  || |`* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||  || | `* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityDono.
|      |   ||  || |  `- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||  || `- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||  |`- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||  `* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityProkaryotic Capase Homolog
|      |   ||   +- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityDono.
|      |   ||   +* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   |+* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityProkaryotic Capase Homolog
|      |   ||   ||+- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   ||`* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityProkaryotic Capase Homolog
|      |   ||   || +* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   || |+* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityRichD
|      |   ||   || ||`- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   || |`* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityrotchm
|      |   ||   || | `- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   || +- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||   || +* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityProkaryotic Capase Homolog
|      |   ||   || |`* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   || | `- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||   || +- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityRichard Hertz
|      |   ||   || `- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||   |`* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityStan Fultoni
|      |   ||   | +- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilitypatdolan
|      |   ||   | +- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilitypatdolan
|      |   ||   | +- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   | +* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityStan Fultoni
|      |   ||   | |+- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   | |+* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityStan Fultoni
|      |   ||   | ||`* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   | || +* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityStan Fultoni
|      |   ||   | || |`- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   | || `- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||   | |`- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||   | +* Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityRoss A. Finlayson
|      |   ||   | |`- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityJ. J. Lodder
|      |   ||   | +- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityMaciej Wozniak
|      |   ||   | `- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityRoss A. Finlayson
|      |   ||   `- Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecilityRichD
|      |   |`* Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
|      |   | `* Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|      |   |  `* Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
|      |   |   `* Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|      |   |    `* Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
|      |   |     `- Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|      |   `- Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|      `* Re: Aioe.orgwhodat
|       +- Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
|       `* Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|        `* Re: Aioe.orgwhodat
|         +* Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|         |`* Re: Aioe.orgwhodat
|         | +* Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|         | |`* Re: Aioe.orgwhodat
|         | | `- Re: Aioe.orgMaciej Wozniak
|         | `* Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
|         |  `* Crank Dick Hertz eats shitDono.
|         |   `- Re: Crank Dick Hertz eats shitMaciej Wozniak
|         `* Re: Aioe.orgpatdolan
|          `- Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
+* Re: Aioe.orgJ. J. Lodder
|`* Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
| `- Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
+- Re: Aioe.orgRichard Hertz
+* Re: Aioe.orgClutterfreak
`* Re: Aioe.orgpatdolan

Pages:123456
Re: Aioe.org

<a778ec23-489c-4e07-9633-e8facd9370d4n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Aioe.org
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sat, 7 May 2022 04:24 UTC

On Saturday, 7 May 2022 at 01:41:27 UTC+2, whodat wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 3:13 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
>
> >> Don't have any to share?
>
> > Yes. Nature is NOT functioning. If you weren't too
> > dumb for a simple dictionary maybe you could
> > notice it yourself. As for The Shit - it's main topic
> > is: coordinates (with time), clocks, observers; none
> > of them is even a part of nature, sorry.
> Nature does include functioning.

But is not itself.

> Definition of nature
>
> 1 : the external world in its entirety"

And what is the function of "the external
world in its entirely"? External to - what?

> Dictionary disputes are, praise the lord, infrequent among the better
> educated and more intelligent participants in Usenet.

They're too dumb for them, just like you. And, like
you, they believe that speaking much, waving
arms and spitting at opponents is more effective
than putting right words in right places (and much,
much, much easier, of course).
I must admit such a belief it's not completely
baseless.

Anyway, as for The Shit - it's main topic
is: coordinates (with time), clocks, observers; none
of them is even a part of nature, sorry.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<1prksd1.hchncb1f0hbokN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 08:57:16 +0200
Organization: De Ster
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Reply-To: jjlax32@xs4all.nl (J. J. Lodder)
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sat, 7 May 2022 06:57 UTC

Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:18:29 PM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.c...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 8:30:07 AM UTC-5, Dono. wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:30:34 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Yes, that's fine for the two body problem.
> > > > ....which is fine for the exercise at hand. You do not need the extended
> > > > solution.
> > > >
> > > You and Jan have different notions of what constitutes the
> > > "exercise at hand".
> > Not at all. I understand the whole situation from all viewpoints.
> > Dono otoh is insisting that his extremely limited view
> > is the only right way to talk abut it.
> > > 1) At the level of absolute precision with which Jan writes, the
> > > gravitational potential around the Earth is far from smoothly
> > > symmetrical. Rather, it is extremely lumpy and constantly
> > > changing in shape from internal changes in the Earth's
> > > distribution of mass as well as from the influence of other
> > > planets.
> > Right.
> > > 2) On the other hand, when discussing sensitivity of measurement,
> > > say when calculating the difference in potential given a height
> > > difference of several centimeters, these other influences make
> > > hardly any difference at all, and the Schwarzschild solution
> > > represents a perfectly good approximation.
> > Right again. Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation.
> > There is no black hole in the centre of the Earth,
> > and there isn't one in the solar system either.
> > The Scharwschild solution boils down to the Newtonian approximation,
> > and nothing beyond that is measurable.
> > > So you two are arguing at cross-purposes.
> > I am not arguing. It is just Dono trying to pick a quarrel over nothing.
> > (like always)
> > > Both of you tend to go with your initial "take" on a problem and ignore
> > > the fact that others may have a different "take" on the same problem.
> > You are trying to see a symmetry where there is none.
> > > I noticed this, for instance, when Jan and I were arguing on the utility
> > > of millisecond pulsars as clocks.
> > Who talked about utility? You perhaps.
> >
> > I was talking about (millisecond) pulsars
> > as a fundamental problem in physics.
> > In case you missed it, the problem is:
> > is the time that is defined purely by inertia,
> > originally the time defined by the rotation of the Earth,
> > nowadays by the rotation of pulsars,
> > the same time as the time defined by clocks.
> > (originall pendulum clocks, nowadays atomic ones)
> >
> > The answer is still pending,
>
> As I stated, you and I had, and continue to have,
> different "takes" on what was the issue under
> discussion.

Please argue the usenet way, by replying to quoted text,
instead of paraphrasing.

> Your current response illustrates
> my point precisely. Your aggressive insistence
> that I was missing the point is matched by your
> continued ignorance of the fact that I was not
> arguing your point at all when I made my original
> response to woz who was responding to Odd who
> was responding to the OP.

Pffftttt.
Please argue the usenet way, by replying to quoted text,
instead of paraphrasing. (by now half a thread) [1]

> Your *only* post up to
> that point on the "Clocks run at different rates..."
> thread had been directly to the OP and was hence
> on an *entirely different branch of the thread.*

Please argue the usenet way, by replying to quoted text,
instead of paraphrasing.

> Furthermore, your original response to the OP did
> not deal at all with the "fundamental problem in
> physics" that you claim was your motivation.

Please argue the usenet way, by replying to quoted text,
instead of paraphrasing.

> Basically, your entire argument was based on your
> complete misunderstanding of the trivial point that
> I was making to woz, that a pulsar cannot be used
> as a timekeeper for local time.

Yes, and on that you are mistaken.
There is no difference of principle
between using the rotation of the Earth as a timekeeper
(which humans did for millennia)
and using the rotation of pulsars.
The only question with that is what kind of accuracy you can achieve.

> You are trying to re-write history in your favor.

You are not trying to conduct a usenet discussion in a constructive way,

Jan

[1] Please try to remember that your head is not my head,
and that a line through a chaotic thread
that you see so clearly in your head
is not at all clear in my head.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<1prkse6.1k9vlc8eji7iN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 08:57:16 +0200
Organization: De Ster
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Reply-To: jjlax32@xs4all.nl (J. J. Lodder)
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sat, 7 May 2022 06:57 UTC

Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:18:29 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation.
> > There is no black hole in the centre of the Earth,
> > and there isn't one in the solar system either.
>
> Birkhoff's theorem assures that any spherically symmetrical solution
> (vacuum) is a part of the Schwarzschild solution, regardless of
> whether there is a black hole at the center. Of course,
> there are many idealizations, such as non-rotating, no charge,
> perfectly spherical, etc., but those are not related to whether there
> is a black hole.
>
> > The Scharwschild solution boils down to the Newtonian approximation,
>
> No, not at all. And it is spelled Schwarzschild.

Great, you have found a typo.
(in the umpteenth time I typed it)

> > and nothing beyond that is measurable.
>
> Huh?

Do give an example of a (non-Newtonian) gravitational clock shift
that is (accurately) measurable.
(so with \Delta\Phi/c^2 not much smaller than one)

> > In case you missed it, the problem is:
> > is the time that is defined purely by inertia,
> > nowadays by the rotation of pulsars,
> > the same time as the time defined by clocks.
> > The answer is still pending,
>
> Huh? That is only "pending" to the extent that local Lorentz
> invariance is "pending".

It must be great to know the answer to an empirical question
that will take decade to resolve.

You do it by pure claivoyance?

Jan

Re: Aioe.org

<jdmmp7F7jb8U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Aioe.org
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 09:52:05 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:52 UTC

On 2022-05-06 19:18:27 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> <"Mike Moroney <moroney"@world.std.spaamtrap> wrote:
>
>> I've had an Eternal September acct unused for years. I *could* have come
>> right back almost immediately with it, but...
>> 1) I coincidentally got rather sick and playing with Usenet cranks on
>> s.p.r. was suddenly quite low on my priorities, and you wouldn't have
>> seen much of me anyway.
>> 2) I started reading (not responding, of course) s.p.r anyway and almost
>> started thinking..."Do these cranks deserve me? Not really..." So I
>> decided to take a break from posting here, although I do reply in other
>> groups. I may return, or maybe not.
>
> Yes, idem. I may be gone again in a while.

Please don't go! Amusing though it may be to read the torrent of
nonsense that the various crackpots spew out, it's nice to have the
voice of reason as well, especially from someone who knows a lot of
physics.
>
> The problem with sc.p.rel is that quarrel picking
> has become a second nature even with those who should know better,
>
> Jan

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<b123bcc1-f26d-4168-ae80-7729d3a5393bn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: prokaryo...@gmail.com (Prokaryotic Capase Homolog)
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 by: Prokaryotic Capase H - Sat, 7 May 2022 09:16 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:57:18 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.c...@gmail.com>

> > Basically, your entire argument was based on your
> > complete misunderstanding of the trivial point that
> > I was making to woz, that a pulsar cannot be used
> > as a timekeeper for local time.
>
> Yes, and on that you are mistaken.
> There is no difference of principle
> between using the rotation of the Earth as a timekeeper
> (which humans did for millennia)
> and using the rotation of pulsars.
> The only question with that is what kind of accuracy you can achieve.

(sigh)

Pulsars are not local to the Earth.

You cannot use the signals of a distant millisecond
pulsar to drive a clock yielding local time.

You cannot use the signals of two distant pulsars
to drive a clock yielding local time.

You cannot use the signals of three distant pulsars
to drive a clock yielding local time.

As an absolute minimum, you need the signals of
four distant pulsars, and preferably more so that
glitches can be detected and compensated for.

The analysis of multiple pulsar signals to obtain
local time is, needless to say, rather more complicated
than monitoring the rotation of the Earth. It requires
powerful computers and years of monitoring each
pulsar of the pulsar array to obtain each pulsar's period
and rundown characteristics with the aid of highly
precise time provided by the international network of
atomic time standards and the various networks of
satellites used for the worldwide dissemination of
precise time. (GPS, for instance, provides one-way
dissemination of time. For maximum accuracy, two-way
protocols are used.)

The pulsar signals change in shape and magnitude
over time, and since the shapes can be rather complex,
ascertaining the precise center of each pulse can be
somewhat problematical, i.e. the apparent phase of
the pulses vary with time.

If one assumes that once can determine the "centers"
of the slowly morphing, irregularly shaped millisecond
pulsar signals to, say, one part in 100, then to obtain
10^-12 accuracy, one needs to accumulate at least
10^10 pulses, which would take a few years. This
requires the existence of local oscillators of long-term
stability comparable to that of the pulsars. In other
words, atomic frequency standards.

I don't know what you mean when you state, "There
is no difference of principle between using the rotation
of the Earth as a timekeeper (which humans did for
millennia) and using the rotation of pulsars."

It seems to me that there are at least a few minor
points of difference.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<1prldm6.oxlun8n39yxcN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 16:15:45 +0200
Organization: De Ster
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sat, 7 May 2022 14:15 UTC

Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:57:18 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.c...@gmail.com>
>
> > > Basically, your entire argument was based on your
> > > complete misunderstanding of the trivial point that
> > > I was making to woz, that a pulsar cannot be used
> > > as a timekeeper for local time.
> >
> > Yes, and on that you are mistaken.
> > There is no difference of principle
> > between using the rotation of the Earth as a timekeeper
> > (which humans did for millennia)
> > and using the rotation of pulsars.
> > The only question with that is what kind of accuracy you can achieve.
>
> (sigh)
>
> Pulsars are not local to the Earth.

Who said they were?

> You cannot use the signals of a distant millisecond
> pulsar to drive a clock yielding local time.
>
> You cannot use the signals of two distant pulsars
> to drive a clock yielding local time.
>
> You cannot use the signals of three distant pulsars
> to drive a clock yielding local time.
>
> As an absolute minimum, you need the signals of
> four distant pulsars, and preferably more so that
> glitches can be detected and compensated for.

Yes, and so what? You need an ensemble of them.
(as said all along)

> The analysis of multiple pulsar signals to obtain
> local time is, needless to say, rather more complicated
> than monitoring the rotation of the Earth. It requires
> powerful computers and years of monitoring each
> pulsar of the pulsar array to obtain each pulsar's period
> and rundown characteristics with the aid of highly
> precise time provided by the international network of
> atomic time standards and the various networks of
> satellites used for the worldwide dissemination of
> precise time. (GPS, for instance, provides one-way
> dissemination of time. For maximum accuracy, two-way
> protocols are used.)
>
> The pulsar signals change in shape and magnitude
> over time, and since the shapes can be rather complex,
> ascertaining the precise center of each pulse can be
> somewhat problematical, i.e. the apparent phase of
> the pulses vary with time.
>
> If one assumes that once can determine the "centers"
> of the slowly morphing, irregularly shaped millisecond
> pulsar signals to, say, one part in 100, then to obtain
> 10^-12 accuracy, one needs to accumulate at least
> 10^10 pulses, which would take a few years. This
> requires the existence of local oscillators of long-term
> stability comparable to that of the pulsars. In other
> words, atomic frequency standards.

That is the other side of the coin.
How can we know that atomic clocks do posses
this kind of long term stability?
You are assuming what needs to be shown.

> I don't know what you mean when you state, "There
> is no difference of principle between using the rotation
> of the Earth as a timekeeper (which humans did for
> millennia) and using the rotation of pulsars."
>
> It seems to me that there are at least a few minor
> points of difference.

Yes, of course, and again, so what?
All you say is irrelevant to the question:
is the time that can be derived from the rotations of pulsars
the same time as the time derived from atomic clocks?

And yes, it will take decades to find out,
(also as said all along)

Jan

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<4de1c1d9-8bc0-49dc-b073-e03f2d14d891n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: fultonis...@gmail.com (Stan Fultoni)
Injection-Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 14:40:20 +0000
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 by: Stan Fultoni - Sat, 7 May 2022 14:40 UTC

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:57:18 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation.
> There is no black hole in the centre of the Earth,
> and there isn't one in the solar system either.
Birkhoff's theorem assures that any spherically symmetrical solution
(vacuum) is a part of the Schwarzschild solution, regardless of
whether there is a black hole at the center. Of course, there are
many idealizations, such as non-rotating, no charge, perfectly spherical,
etc., but those are not related to whether there is a black hole.

> The Scharwschild solution boils down to the Newtonian approximation,
Not at all. The Schwarzschild solution does not "boil down" to
the Newtonian approximation, it is the (essentially unique) exact spherically
symmetrical solution of the vacuum field equations.

> [The Schwarzschild solution] is fine for the two body problem.

No, there's no closed form solution of the two-body problem in general
relativity (unlike Newtonian physics). The Schwarzschild solution is a
solution of the ONE-body problem, i.e., it just describes the geodesics
in a spherically symmetrical condition, whereas a true two-body problem
is not spherically symmetrical. We can use the Schwarzschild solution
for orbits only by treating the orbiting entity as a "test particle" that
has negligible effect on the field.

> Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation... The Scharwschild
> solution boils down to...

It is spelled Schwarzschild. In your message you typed it twice, and
first "Scharwschildt" and then "Scharwschild".

> Great, you have found a typo. (in the umpteenth time I typed it)

The message to which I responded just had the umpteenth and the umteenth + 1
times that you typed it, and you mis-spelled it (albeit differently) both
times. If you've typed it correctly in the past, then I applaud you, but
that doesn't change my comment.

> > > and nothing beyond that is measurable.
> >
> > Huh?
>
> Do give an example of a (non-Newtonian) gravitational clock shift
> that is (accurately) measurable. (so with \Delta\Phi/c^2 not much
> smaller than one)

Non-Newtonian gravitational time dilation has been accurately measured
countless times, in a wide variety of ways, including with macroscopic
clocks. This is not a controversial claim. So my "huh?" still stands,
i.e., your statement that "nothing beyond [the Newtonian approximation]
is measurable" is crazy.

> In case you missed it, the problem is: is the time that is defined
> purely by inertia, nowadays by the rotation of pulsars, the same time
> as the time defined by clocks. The answer is still pending...

I say again: Huh? What you described is only "pending" to the extent that
local Lorentz invariance is "pending".... Which is to say, no, it is not still
pending.

> It must be great to know the answer to an empirical question
> that will take decade to resolve.

Local Lorentz invariance has been empirically established for over 100 years.
It is not "pending", although there are always new tests attempting to probe
at still greater precisions, looking for any possible violations. None
have ever been found. Special relativity is extremely well founded empirically.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<aa6f456f-e3b1-49b8-8949-a4c2134073ean@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: ross.fin...@gmail.com (Ross A. Finlayson)
Injection-Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 16:05:20 +0000
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 by: Ross A. Finlayson - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:05 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 7:40:22 AM UTC-7, Stan Fultoni wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:57:18 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation.
> > There is no black hole in the centre of the Earth,
> > and there isn't one in the solar system either.
>
> Birkhoff's theorem assures that any spherically symmetrical solution
> (vacuum) is a part of the Schwarzschild solution, regardless of
> whether there is a black hole at the center. Of course, there are
> many idealizations, such as non-rotating, no charge, perfectly spherical,
> etc., but those are not related to whether there is a black hole.
>
> > The Scharwschild solution boils down to the Newtonian approximation,
> Not at all. The Schwarzschild solution does not "boil down" to
> the Newtonian approximation, it is the (essentially unique) exact spherically
> symmetrical solution of the vacuum field equations.
>
> > [The Schwarzschild solution] is fine for the two body problem.
>
> No, there's no closed form solution of the two-body problem in general
> relativity (unlike Newtonian physics). The Schwarzschild solution is a
> solution of the ONE-body problem, i.e., it just describes the geodesics
> in a spherically symmetrical condition, whereas a true two-body problem
> is not spherically symmetrical. We can use the Schwarzschild solution
> for orbits only by treating the orbiting entity as a "test particle" that
> has negligible effect on the field.
>
> > Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation... The Scharwschild
> > solution boils down to...
>
> It is spelled Schwarzschild. In your message you typed it twice, and
> first "Scharwschildt" and then "Scharwschild".
> > Great, you have found a typo. (in the umpteenth time I typed it)
> The message to which I responded just had the umpteenth and the umteenth + 1
> times that you typed it, and you mis-spelled it (albeit differently) both
> times. If you've typed it correctly in the past, then I applaud you, but
> that doesn't change my comment.
> > > > and nothing beyond that is measurable.
> > >
> > > Huh?
> >
> > Do give an example of a (non-Newtonian) gravitational clock shift
> > that is (accurately) measurable. (so with \Delta\Phi/c^2 not much
> > smaller than one)
> Non-Newtonian gravitational time dilation has been accurately measured
> countless times, in a wide variety of ways, including with macroscopic
> clocks. This is not a controversial claim. So my "huh?" still stands,
> i.e., your statement that "nothing beyond [the Newtonian approximation]
> is measurable" is crazy.
> > In case you missed it, the problem is: is the time that is defined
> > purely by inertia, nowadays by the rotation of pulsars, the same time
> > as the time defined by clocks. The answer is still pending...
>
> I say again: Huh? What you described is only "pending" to the extent that
> local Lorentz invariance is "pending".... Which is to say, no, it is not still
> pending.
> > It must be great to know the answer to an empirical question
> > that will take decade to resolve.
> Local Lorentz invariance has been empirically established for over 100 years.
> It is not "pending", although there are always new tests attempting to probe
> at still greater precisions, looking for any possible violations. None
> have ever been found. Special relativity is extremely well founded empirically.

In the right domains and the sectors.

Sure, relativity's established out to 25 orders of magnitude, like quantum physics.

The Galilean's really strongly well held up, too!

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:14 UTC

On Saturday, 7 May 2022 at 18:05:21 UTC+2, Ross A. Finlayson wrote:

> > have ever been found. Special relativity is extremely well founded empirically.
> In the right domains and the sectors.
>
> Sure, relativity's established out to 25 orders of magnitude, like quantum physics.

In the meantime in the real world, however, forbidden
by your insane religion GPS and TAI keep measuring
t'=t, just like all serious clocks always did.

Re: Aioe.org

<6276BAAE.1FA7@ix.netcom.com>

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 by: The Starmaker - Sat, 7 May 2022 18:30 UTC

The Starmaker wrote:
>
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > patdolan wrote:
> > >
> > > On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 10:03:32 PM UTC-7, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > for those who use free newsservers...
> > > >
> > > > if i'm not mistaken
> > > >
> > > > sci.physics.relativity is on the banlist now as of today.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://news.aioe.org/documentation/access-restrictions/
> > > >
> > > > nntp.aioe.org:
> > > > news.aioe.org:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
> > > > to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
> > > > and challenge
> > > > the unchallengeable.
> > >
> > > Starmaker, can you please bottomline this for us? What are the implications, if any?
> > >
> > > I suggest this forum should rate the abusers--at least for posterity, so that future generations will know who were the worst actors and abusers at the start of the Information Age. Can I get an amen?
> >
> > Who do you think is the number one Lurker right now?
>
> the odd bodkin is probably now
> trying to figure out his next options:
>
> take a vacation and
> come back as a woman...or
>
> change his handle from the odd bodkin to
>
> I'M FUCKING GOD!!!
>

also, the sig needs to be changed to..

-maker of fine Earths, Galaxies and Universes.

but everybody knows
the odd bodkin will come back
in some form to get his ...fix,
to shoot usenet up his arm,
to smoke and snort some
usenet group plant.

while everybody else here gets high...

eventually he'll get the..Jones.

craving, anxiety, restlessness..

he'll need his fix...all junkies do.

sci.physics.relativity is his ...drug of choice.

a usenet head.

Don't you hear the screaming?

He is screaming:

FUCK!!!

FUCK!!!

`7MM"""YMM `7MMF' `7MF' .g8"""bgd `7MMF' `YMM'
MM `7 MM M .dP' `M MM .M'
MM d MM M dM' ` MM .d"
MM""MM MM M MM MMMMM.
MM Y MM M MM. MM VMA
MM YM. ,M `Mb. ,' MM `MM.
..JMML. `bmmmmd"' `"bmmmd' .JMML. MMb.

88888888888 88 88 ,ad8888ba, 88 a8P
88 88 88 d8"' `"8b 88 ,88'
88 88 88 d8' 88 ,88"
88aaaaa 88 88 88 88,d88'
88""""" 88 88 88 8888"88,
88 88 88 Y8, 88P Y8b
88 Y8a. .a8P Y8a. .a8P 88 "88,
88 `"Y8888Y"' `"Y8888Y"' 88 Y8b

--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, and challenge
the unchallengeable.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<1prlm6t.zvd1c01cawa8gN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 20:30:09 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sat, 7 May 2022 18:30 UTC

Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:57:18 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation.
> > There is no black hole in the centre of the Earth,
> > and there isn't one in the solar system either.
>
> Birkhoff's theorem assures that any spherically symmetrical solution
> (vacuum) is a part of the Schwarzschild solution, regardless of
> whether there is a black hole at the center. Of course, there are
> many idealizations, such as non-rotating, no charge, perfectly spherical,
> etc., but those are not related to whether there is a black hole.

Unfortunately, reality is never spherically symmetrical.

> > The Scharwschild solution boils down to the Newtonian approximation,
>
> Not at all. The Schwarzschild solution does not "boil down" to
> the Newtonian approximation, it is the (essentially unique) exact spherically
> symmetrical solution of the vacuum field equations.

It does, far away. It is just that you haven't seen it.

> > [The Schwarzschild solution] is fine for the two body problem.
>
> No, there's no closed form solution of the two-body problem in general
> relativity (unlike Newtonian physics). The Schwarzschild solution is a
> solution of the ONE-body problem, i.e., it just describes the geodesics
> in a spherically symmetrical condition, whereas a true two-body problem
> is not spherically symmetrical. We can use the Schwarzschild solution
> for orbits only by treating the orbiting entity as a "test particle" that
> has negligible effect on the field.
>
> > Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation... The Scharwschild
> > solution boils down to...
>
> It is spelled Schwarzschild. In your message you typed it twice, and
> first "Scharwschildt" and then "Scharwschild".
>
> > Great, you have found a typo. (in the umpteenth time I typed it)
>
> The message to which I responded just had the umpteenth and the umteenth + 1
> times that you typed it, and you mis-spelled it (albeit differently) both
> times. If you've typed it correctly in the past, then I applaud you, but
> that doesn't change my comment.

If you had something to say
you would have no need for nagging about typos.

> > > > and nothing beyond that is measurable.
> > >
> > > Huh?
> >
> > Do give an example of a (non-Newtonian) gravitational clock shift
> > that is (accurately) measurable. (so with \Delta\Phi/c^2 not much
> > smaller than one)
>
> Non-Newtonian gravitational time dilation has been accurately measured
> countless times, in a wide variety of ways, including with macroscopic
> clocks. This is not a controversial claim. So my "huh?" still stands,
> i.e., your statement that "nothing beyond [the Newtonian approximation]
> is measurable" is crazy.

Give some examples. I guess you merely misunderstand the words used.
(to make your point you need to provide an example of a measured
relativistic shift in clock rates that is well above 1)

> > In case you missed it, the problem is: is the time that is defined
> > purely by inertia, nowadays by the rotation of pulsars, the same time
> > as the time defined by clocks. The answer is still pending...
>
> I say again: Huh? What you described is only "pending" to the extent that
> local Lorentz invariance is "pending".... Which is to say, no, it is not
> still pending.

You haven't even seen the beginning of the problem.
(and local Lorentz invariance has nothing to do with it,
beyond you needing another red herring)

> > It must be great to know the answer to an empirical question
> > that will take decade to resolve.
>
> Local Lorentz invariance has been empirically established for over 100
> years. It is not "pending", although there are always new tests attempting
> to probe at still greater precisions, looking for any possible violations.
> None have ever been found. Special relativity is extremely well founded
> empirically.

It is not founded empirically at all.
It is a postulate, and it can be verified only indirectly.

Jan

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<1prlmh6.11lqu2g1yami1yN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sat, 7 May 2022 18:30 UTC

Ross A. Finlayson <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 7:40:22 AM UTC-7, Stan Fultoni wrote:
> > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:57:18 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation.
> > > There is no black hole in the centre of the Earth,
> > > and there isn't one in the solar system either.
> >
> > Birkhoff's theorem assures that any spherically symmetrical solution
> > (vacuum) is a part of the Schwarzschild solution, regardless of
> > whether there is a black hole at the center. Of course, there are
> > many idealizations, such as non-rotating, no charge, perfectly spherical,
> > etc., but those are not related to whether there is a black hole.
> >
> > > The Scharwschild solution boils down to the Newtonian approximation,
> > Not at all. The Schwarzschild solution does not "boil down" to
> > the Newtonian approximation, it is the (essentially unique) exact
> > spherically symmetrical solution of the vacuum field equations.
> >
> > > [The Schwarzschild solution] is fine for the two body problem.
> >
> > No, there's no closed form solution of the two-body problem in general
> > relativity (unlike Newtonian physics). The Schwarzschild solution is a
> > solution of the ONE-body problem, i.e., it just describes the geodesics
> > in a spherically symmetrical condition, whereas a true two-body problem
> > is not spherically symmetrical. We can use the Schwarzschild solution
> > for orbits only by treating the orbiting entity as a "test particle"
> > that has negligible effect on the field.
> >
> > > Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation... The Scharwschild
> > > solution boils down to...
> >
> > It is spelled Schwarzschild. In your message you typed it twice, and
> > first "Scharwschildt" and then "Scharwschild".
> > > Great, you have found a typo. (in the umpteenth time I typed it)
> > The message to which I responded just had the umpteenth and the umteenth
> > + 1 times that you typed it, and you mis-spelled it (albeit differently)
> > both times. If you've typed it correctly in the past, then I applaud
> > you, but that doesn't change my comment.
> > > > > and nothing beyond that is measurable.
> > > >
> > > > Huh?
> > >
> > > Do give an example of a (non-Newtonian) gravitational clock shift
> > > that is (accurately) measurable. (so with \Delta\Phi/c^2 not much
> > > smaller than one)
> > Non-Newtonian gravitational time dilation has been accurately measured
> > countless times, in a wide variety of ways, including with macroscopic
> > clocks. This is not a controversial claim. So my "huh?" still stands,
> > i.e., your statement that "nothing beyond [the Newtonian approximation]
> > is measurable" is crazy.
> > > In case you missed it, the problem is: is the time that is defined
> > > purely by inertia, nowadays by the rotation of pulsars, the same time
> > > as the time defined by clocks. The answer is still pending...
> >
> > I say again: Huh? What you described is only "pending" to the extent
> > that local Lorentz invariance is "pending".... Which is to say, no, it
> > is not still pending.
> > > It must be great to know the answer to an empirical question
> > > that will take decade to resolve.
> > Local Lorentz invariance has been empirically established for over 100
> > years. It is not "pending", although there are always new tests
> > attempting to probe at still greater precisions, looking for any
> > possible violations. None have ever been found. Special relativity is
> > extremely well founded empirically.
>
> In the right domains and the sectors.
>
> Sure, relativity's established out to 25 orders of magnitude, like quantum
> physics.
>
> The Galilean's really strongly well held up, too!

You don't know what you are talking about.
Nothing empirical has been established to level 10^-25,
(or anywhere near it)

Jan

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: ross.fin...@gmail.com (Ross A. Finlayson)
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 by: Ross A. Finlayson - Sat, 7 May 2022 19:43 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 9:14:22 AM UTC-7, maluw...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 7 May 2022 at 18:05:21 UTC+2, Ross A. Finlayson wrote:
>
> > > have ever been found. Special relativity is extremely well founded empirically.
> > In the right domains and the sectors.
> >
> > Sure, relativity's established out to 25 orders of magnitude, like quantum physics.
> In the meantime in the real world, however, forbidden
> by your insane religion GPS and TAI keep measuring
> t'=t, just like all serious clocks always did.

From measuring their velocity - then also there are accelerometers.

The, "accelero-mometer": is that orbits are free under terms in the usual sense
of being "classical", ..., "a solution of an orbit".

I.e., besides "this must be their true velocity, measured orbit of all devices
if by light-speed triangulation of the optical and radio", it's not just that
"according to the measured velocity, motion according to future time t is
linear", which suffices to have that "t = t", is that accelerations and decelerations
are dynamic: in a usual sense of a glide path and a kick motor.

I.e. just because it's written out the same way "in effect", yes I think it's
agreed that about the Earth it is, as at rest, its own rotating frame.

For that what orbits it is in its rotating frame, ....

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: fultonis...@gmail.com (Stan Fultoni)
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 by: Stan Fultoni - Sat, 7 May 2022 19:53 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:30:12 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation.
> There is no black hole in the centre of the Earth,
> and there isn't one in the solar system either.
Huh? Birkhoff's theorem assures that any spherically symmetrical
solution (vacuum) is a part of the Schwarzschild solution, regardless
of whether or not there is a black hole at the center. So, the applicability
relies only on being sufficiently close to the idealized conditions,
i.e., close to spherically symmetrical, rotating only slowly, negligible
overall electric charge, and so on. All of these conditions apply for
purposes of computing the gravitational time dilation is many common
circumstances.

> > > The Scharwschild solution boils down to the Newtonian approximation,
> >
> > Not at all. The Schwarzschild solution does not "boil down" to
> > the Newtonian approximation, it is the (essentially unique) exact spherically
> > symmetrical solution of the vacuum field equations.
>
> It does, far away. It is just that you haven't seen it.

Huh? Far from the gravitating body, the Schwarzschild solution asymptotically
approaches flattness, but it's Lorentzian flattness, not Newtonian, and this
is not what you said in your statement above. You said the Schwarzschild
solution "boils down to the Newtonian approximation", which is simply false.
Are you just trying to say that in the weak slow limit, general relativity
is approximated by Newtonian gravity? Duh.

> [The Schwarzschild solution] is fine for the two body problem.
No, there's no closed form solution of the two-body problem in general
relativity (unlike Newtonian physics). The Schwarzschild solution is a
solution of the ONE-body problem, i.e., it just describes the geodesics
in a spherically symmetrical condition, whereas a true two-body problem
is not spherically symmetrical. We can use the Schwarzschild solution
for orbits only by treating the orbiting entity as a "test particle" that
has negligible effect on the field.

> > It is spelled Schwarzschild. In your message you typed it twice, and
> > first "Scharwschildt" and then "Scharwschild".
>
> Great, you have found a typo.

Those are clearly not typos. To get from Schwarzschild to Scharwschildt you
need to (1) omit the "z", (2) add the "t", and (3) swap "war" with "arw". Then
the next time you typed it you at least omitted the errant "t". So, you
completely garbled the spelling, and not just once, but on both occurrences.
The relevance is for crackpot points. Item 8 on the list says "5 points for
each mention of "Einstien", "Hawkins" or "Feynmann", and I think it is
fair to add "Scharwschildt".

> If you had something to say you would have no need for nagging about typos.

First, they clearly weren't typos, and second, my post provides half a dozen
explicit corrections of your misconceptions, most of which you simply
ignored, and none of which you answered in any substantive way.

> > > and nothing beyond [the Newtonian approximation] is measurable.
> >
> > Non-Newtonian gravitational time dilation has been accurately measured
> > countless times, in a wide variety of ways, including with macroscopic
> > clocks.
>
> Give some examples.

Examples of measurements of gravitational time dilation? I urge you to
get an introductory book on the subject. Sheesh.

> > > Is the time defined purely by inertia... the same time
> > > as the time defined by clocks. The answer is still pending...
> >
> > I say again: Huh? What you described is only "pending" to the extent that
> > local Lorentz invariance is "pending".... Which is to say, no, it is not
> > still pending.
>
> Local Lorentz invariance has nothing to do with it...

It has everything to do with it. You're suggesting that the laws of
physics do not all take the same form in terms of any local system of
inertial coordinates, since you suggest that the characteristic rate
of temporal progression between them is not always locally the same.
That would be a direct contradiction of local Lorentz invariance, and
would imply a preferred frame for local physics, etc.

> > Special relativity is extremely well founded empirically.
>
> It is not founded empirically at all.

As with all anti-relativity crackpots, you are deeply confused. Special
relativity is firmly founded on an empirical basis. Galileo's principle of
relativity is abundantly supported by all our experience, and the principle
of the inertia of energy is likewise unequivocally supported by every
observation and experimental test. Local Lorentz invariance is among the
most thoroughly and precisely validated empirical facts in all of science.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sat, 7 May 2022 20:20 UTC

On Saturday, 7 May 2022 at 21:53:22 UTC+2, Stan Fultoni wrote:

> As with all anti-relativity crackpots, you are deeply confused. Special
> relativity is firmly founded on an empirical basis.

In the meantime in the real world, however, forbidden
by your insane Shit GPS and TAI keep measuring
t'=t, just like all serious clocks always did.

> Galileo's principle of
> relativity is abundantly supported by all our experience

Only such an idiot can believe such a nonsensical lie.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: r_delane...@yahoo.com (RichD)
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 by: RichD - Sat, 7 May 2022 21:09 UTC

On May 6, prokaryotic.c...@gmail.com wrote:
> 1) At the level of absolute precision with which Jan writes, the
> gravitational potential around the Earth is far from smoothly
> symmetrical. Rather, it is extremely lumpy and constantly
> changing in shape from internal changes in the Earth's
> distribution of mass as well as from the influence of other
> planets.
> 2) On the other hand, when discussing sensitivity of measurement,
> say when calculating the difference in potential given a height
> difference of several centimeters, these other influences make
> hardly any difference at all, and the Schwarzschild solution
> represents a perfectly good approximation.

accuracy vs. resolution

--
Rich

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: r_delane...@yahoo.com (RichD)
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 by: RichD - Sat, 7 May 2022 21:58 UTC

On May 7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> How can we know that atomic clocks do posses
> this kind of long term stability?
> You are assuming what needs to be shown.
>
> is the time that can be derived from the rotations of pulsars
> the same time as the time derived from atomic clocks?
> And yes, it will take decades to find out,

If atomic clocks disagree with pulsars, after 50 years,
is there any way to say "THIS is stabler than THAT"?

Is it decidable?

--
Rich

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: rot...@gmail.com (rotchm)
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 by: rotchm - Sun, 8 May 2022 00:28 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 5:58:31 PM UTC-4, RichD wrote:
> On May 7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > How can we know that atomic clocks do posses
> > this kind of long term stability?
> > You are assuming what needs to be shown.
> >
> > is the time that can be derived from the rotations of pulsars
> > the same time as the time derived from atomic clocks?
> > And yes, it will take decades to find out,
> If atomic clocks disagree with pulsars, after 50 years,
> is there any way to say "THIS is stabler than THAT"?
>
> Is it decidable?

Newton has discussed this. The scientists have been discussing and pondering this for the past two hundred years.
If you followed, you would know what their conclusion was and why.

And consider the following experiment:
Compare many pulsars together. After some time, they all Drift from one another, basically random.
Then compare many atoms together. They Never have drifted amongst themselves (within accuracy of course).

Having realized this empirical fact, which one would you choose? The pulsars or atoms?

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 8 May 2022 04:24 UTC

On Sunday, 8 May 2022 at 02:28:08 UTC+2, rotchm wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 5:58:31 PM UTC-4, RichD wrote:
> > On May 7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > How can we know that atomic clocks do posses
> > > this kind of long term stability?
> > > You are assuming what needs to be shown.
> > >
> > > is the time that can be derived from the rotations of pulsars
> > > the same time as the time derived from atomic clocks?
> > > And yes, it will take decades to find out,
> > If atomic clocks disagree with pulsars, after 50 years,
> > is there any way to say "THIS is stabler than THAT"?
> >
> > Is it decidable?
> Newton has discussed this. The scientists have been discussing and pondering this for the past two hundred years.
> If you followed, you would know what their conclusion was and why.

As anyone can check at GPS, however, atomic clocks
are only stable enough for their moronic games; not
for the serious measurement of the real world.

> And consider the following experiment:
> Compare many pulsars together. After some time, they all Drift from one another, basically random.
> Then compare many atoms together. They Never have drifted amongst themselves (within accuracy of course).

This obvious lie can also be tested at GPS.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: prokaryo...@gmail.com (Prokaryotic Capase Homolog)
Injection-Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 05:24:13 +0000
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 by: Prokaryotic Capase H - Sun, 8 May 2022 05:24 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 9:15:48 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.c...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:57:18 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.c...@gmail.com>
> >
> > > > Basically, your entire argument was based on your
> > > > complete misunderstanding of the trivial point that
> > > > I was making to woz, that a pulsar cannot be used
> > > > as a timekeeper for local time.
> > >
> > > Yes, and on that you are mistaken.
> > > There is no difference of principle
> > > between using the rotation of the Earth as a timekeeper
> > > (which humans did for millennia)
> > > and using the rotation of pulsars.
> > > The only question with that is what kind of accuracy you can achieve.
> >
> > (sigh)
> >
> > Pulsars are not local to the Earth.
> Who said they were?
> > Y There is no difference of principle
> between using the rotation of the Earth as a timekeeper
> (which humans did for millennia)
> and using the rotation of pulsars.
> >
> > You cannot use the signals of two distant pulsars
> > to drive a clock yielding local time.
> >
> > You cannot use the signals of three distant pulsars
> > to drive a clock yielding local time.
> >
> > As an absolute minimum, you need the signals of
> > four distant pulsars, and preferably more so that
> > glitches can be detected and compensated for.
> Yes, and so what? You need an ensemble of them.
> (as said all along)

I had just written, "a pulsar cannot be used as a
timekeeper for local time." Do you know what the
word "a" means, as in "a pulsar"? Singular, correct?
Not an ensemble of pulsars? *

It is clear that further debate with you will not be
fruitful. You are determined never to lose, never to
admit that you could possibly have made a simple
error in misreading a sentence, and you feel
compelled to rewrite history to make your point.

Elsewhere, Stan noted that your multiple misspellings
of Schwarzschild could be likened to crackpots'
deliberate misspellings of "Einstien", "Hawkins",
"Feynmann", etc.

I would consider your insistence on being right at all
costs is another trait that you share with crackpots.
And with Dono, of course.

=============================================
* Even an ensemble of pulsars cannot be used for
determination of local time, since the ensemble is not
portable. Can you carry the ensemble of pulsars to
the top of a mountain to compare local time measured
there with the local time measured at the bottom of
a silver mine?

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Sun, 8 May 2022 06:02 UTC

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 2:32:52 AM UTC-3, Dono. wrote:

<snip>

> Oh, look, the piece of shit is talking to his mirror again.
> You can;t resist, can you?

Coprophilia (from Greek κόπρος, kópros 'excrement' and φιλία, philía 'liking, fondness'), also called scatophilia or scat (Greek: σκατά, skatá 'feces'), is the paraphilia involving sexual arousal and pleasure from feces.

See, Dono the pervert? Your adoration to shit is well documented, sicko.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophilia

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

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Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 8 May 2022 07:19 UTC

On Sunday, 8 May 2022 at 07:24:15 UTC+2, prokaryotic.c...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 9:15:48 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.c...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 1:57:18 AM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > > Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.c...@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > > > Basically, your entire argument was based on your
> > > > > complete misunderstanding of the trivial point that
> > > > > I was making to woz, that a pulsar cannot be used
> > > > > as a timekeeper for local time.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, and on that you are mistaken.
> > > > There is no difference of principle
> > > > between using the rotation of the Earth as a timekeeper
> > > > (which humans did for millennia)
> > > > and using the rotation of pulsars.
> > > > The only question with that is what kind of accuracy you can achieve.
> > >
> > > (sigh)
> > >
> > > Pulsars are not local to the Earth.
> > Who said they were?
> > > Y There is no difference of principle
> > between using the rotation of the Earth as a timekeeper
> > (which humans did for millennia)
> > and using the rotation of pulsars.
> > >
> > > You cannot use the signals of two distant pulsars
> > > to drive a clock yielding local time.
> > >
> > > You cannot use the signals of three distant pulsars
> > > to drive a clock yielding local time.
> > >
> > > As an absolute minimum, you need the signals of
> > > four distant pulsars, and preferably more so that
> > > glitches can be detected and compensated for.
> > Yes, and so what? You need an ensemble of them.
> > (as said all along)
> I had just written, "a pulsar cannot be used as a
> timekeeper for local time."

And you're too dumb to notice that your opinion
is not shared by sane people.

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<1prnl0a.1fybg092fk7cvN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 21:22:56 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sun, 8 May 2022 19:22 UTC

Stan Fultoni <fultonistan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:30:12 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Scharwschildt's metric is an extreme idealisation.
> > There is no black hole in the centre of the Earth,
> > and there isn't one in the solar system either.
>
> Huh? Birkhoff's theorem assures that any spherically symmetrical
> solution (vacuum) is a part of the Schwarzschild solution, regardless
> of whether or not there is a black hole at the center. So, the applicability
> relies only on being sufficiently close to the idealized conditions,
> i.e., close to spherically symmetrical, rotating only slowly, negligible
> overall electric charge, and so on. All of these conditions apply for
> purposes of computing the gravitational time dilation is many common
> circumstances.
>
> > > > The Scharwschild solution boils down to the Newtonian approximation,
> > >
> > > Not at all. The Schwarzschild solution does not "boil down" to
> > > the Newtonian approximation, it is the (essentially unique) exact
> > > spherically symmetrical solution of the vacuum field equations.
> >
> > It does, far away. It is just that you haven't seen it.
>
> Huh? Far from the gravitating body, the Schwarzschild solution asymptotically
> approaches flattness, but it's Lorentzian flattness, not Newtonian, and this
> is not what you said in your statement above. You said the Schwarzschild
> solution "boils down to the Newtonian approximation", which is simply false.
> Are you just trying to say that in the weak slow limit, general relativity
> is approximated by Newtonian gravity? Duh.
>
> > [The Schwarzschild solution] is fine for the two body problem.
>
> No, there's no closed form solution of the two-body problem in general
> relativity (unlike Newtonian physics). The Schwarzschild solution is a
> solution of the ONE-body problem, i.e., it just describes the geodesics
> in a spherically symmetrical condition, whereas a true two-body problem
> is not spherically symmetrical. We can use the Schwarzschild solution
> for orbits only by treating the orbiting entity as a "test particle" that
> has negligible effect on the field.
>
> > > It is spelled Schwarzschild. In your message you typed it twice, and
> > > first "Scharwschildt" and then "Scharwschild".
> >
> > Great, you have found a typo.
>
> Those are clearly not typos. To get from Schwarzschild to Scharwschildt you
> need to (1) omit the "z", (2) add the "t", and (3) swap "war" with "arw". Then
> the next time you typed it you at least omitted the errant "t". So, you
> completely garbled the spelling, and not just once, but on both occurrences.
> The relevance is for crackpot points. Item 8 on the list says "5 points for
> each mention of "Einstien", "Hawkins" or "Feynmann", and I think it is
> fair to add "Scharwschildt".
>
> > If you had something to say you would have no need for nagging about typos.
>
> First, they clearly weren't typos, and second, my post provides half a dozen
> explicit corrections of your misconceptions, most of which you simply
> ignored, and none of which you answered in any substantive way.
>
> > > > and nothing beyond [the Newtonian approximation] is measurable.
> > >
> > > Non-Newtonian gravitational time dilation has been accurately measured
> > > countless times, in a wide variety of ways, including with macroscopic
> > > clocks.
> >
> > Give some examples.
>
> Examples of measurements of gravitational time dilation? I urge you to
> get an introductory book on the subject. Sheesh.
>
> > > > Is the time defined purely by inertia... the same time
> > > > as the time defined by clocks. The answer is still pending...
> > >
> > > I say again: Huh? What you described is only "pending" to the extent that
> > > local Lorentz invariance is "pending".... Which is to say, no, it is not
> > > still pending.
> >
> > Local Lorentz invariance has nothing to do with it...
>
> It has everything to do with it. You're suggesting that the laws of
> physics do not all take the same form in terms of any local system of
> inertial coordinates, since you suggest that the characteristic rate
> of temporal progression between them is not always locally the same.
> That would be a direct contradiction of local Lorentz invariance, and
> would imply a preferred frame for local physics, etc.
>
> > > Special relativity is extremely well founded empirically.
> >
> > It is not founded empirically at all.
>
> As with all anti-relativity crackpots, you are deeply confused. Special
> relativity is firmly founded on an empirical basis. Galileo's principle of
> relativity is abundantly supported by all our experience, and the principle
> of the inertia of energy is likewise unequivocally supported by every
> observation and experimental test. Local Lorentz invariance is among the
> most thoroughly and precisely validated empirical facts in all of science.

ROTFL. YOU are the one who is deeply confused.

Do look back, do think again,

Jan

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<1prnl94.1owbwk16fy8piN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 21:22:57 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sun, 8 May 2022 19:22 UTC

RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On May 7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > How can we know that atomic clocks do posses
> > this kind of long term stability?
> > You are assuming what needs to be shown.
> >
> > is the time that can be derived from the rotations of pulsars
> > the same time as the time derived from atomic clocks?
> > And yes, it will take decades to find out,
>
> If atomic clocks disagree with pulsars, after 50 years,
> is there any way to say "THIS is stabler than THAT"?

Perhaps. As I said a dozen or so postings ago,
this would be a deep problem indeed.
Stability by itself isn't the problem.
That can be decided empirically, between clocks.

If 'pulsar time' and 'atomic clock time' diverge in the long term
this might be taken as an indication
that some of the 'fundamental constants' might be variable in time.
(G? or perhaps \alpha? or yet something else?)
For example, 'pulsar time' depends on G, 'atomic time' doesn't.

> Is it decidable?

Perhaps.
It is an indication that a deeper theory will be needed,
with deeper reasons for what would be the 'right' time,

Jan

Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility

<1prnljo.izreby3a93vfN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Utter cretin Richard Hertz blames GR for his own imbecility
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 21:22:57 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Sun, 8 May 2022 19:22 UTC

rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 5:58:31 PM UTC-4, RichD wrote:
> > On May 7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > How can we know that atomic clocks do posses
> > > this kind of long term stability?
> > > You are assuming what needs to be shown.
> > >
> > > is the time that can be derived from the rotations of pulsars
> > > the same time as the time derived from atomic clocks?
> > > And yes, it will take decades to find out,
> > If atomic clocks disagree with pulsars, after 50 years,
> > is there any way to say "THIS is stabler than THAT"?
> >
> > Is it decidable?
>
> Newton has discussed this. The scientists have been discussing and
> pondering this for the past two hundred years.
> If you followed, you would know what their conclusion was and why.
>
> And consider the following experiment:
> Compare many pulsars together. After some time, they all Drift from one
> another, basically random. Then compare many atoms together. They Never
> have drifted amongst themselves (within accuracy of course).

Atoms, no. (one postulates/assumes)
After all, atoms are identical particles, by Pauli.

Atomic clocks, yes, of course they drift with respect to each other.
(both randomly and systematically)
That is why those in the know, at standards labs, have clusters of them,
so that they can correct for errors, and average for better accuracy.
And why people at BIPM compute the best possible TAI
by comparing hundreds of atomic clocks from all over the world.

> Having realized this empirical fact, which one would you choose? The
> pulsars or atoms?

So you are confused about your 'facts'.
And of course there is nothing to 'choose'.
What would be needed is deeper understanding,

Jan

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server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor