In article <su6eib$6hg$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...
>
> On 2/11/2022 21:20, Don Y wrote:
> > On 2/11/2022 11:44 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> >> On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
> >>> In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
> >>> says...
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.
> >>>>
> >>>> E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
> >>>> that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
> >>>> the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
> >>>> to see the emitted light!)
> >>>>
> >>>> I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
> >>>> the receiver.  And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
> >>>> hourly indications.
> >>>>
> >>>> And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
> >>>> "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
> >>>> (water driven, from an "infinite well")
> >>>>
> >>>> I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
> >>>> current hour/minute.  :<  (if not genuine bowling balls, the
> >>>> display is without value)
> >>>>
> >>> Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
> >>> seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
> >>> learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>
> >>>
> >>> I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
> >>> with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
> >>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
> >>> usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>
> >>>
> >>
> >> How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
> >> mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
> >> calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
> >> the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
> >> which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
> >> KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).
> >
> > It was a common "exercise", in school, to build counters out of
> > "logic" made from discrete transistors, etc.  A multidecade
> > counter would often resemble a large "waffle" -- layer upon
> > layer of perf-board populated with discretes.  Almost more
> > *mechanical* wonders than anything else (getting them to

My "digital" (display only) clock was an apprentice project so had to be
properly documented, which I have somewhere...

IIRC the crystal (in a constant-temperature oven) ran at 200kHz. The
first four decade division was done via four free-running transistor
multivibrators with a modified circuit:
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R4xHYMQoU6KTfPpdgV4lmR5L0Z0uplcy/view?
usp=sharing>

Then there were several dekatrons. And the display neon lamps were lit
via a diode matrix that encoded the digit shapes with the matrix input
supplied by several Strowger-type (I think) pulse-driven relays
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strowger_switch>

So nothing that could be considered digital or even real logic circuits!

On 2/12/2022 0:02, Mike Coon wrote:
> In article <su6eib$6hg$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...
>>
>> On 2/11/2022 21:20, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 2/11/2022 11:44 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>>>> On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
>>>>> In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
>>>>> says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
>>>>>> that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
>>>>>> the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
>>>>>> to see the emitted light!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
>>>>>> the receiver.  And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
>>>>>> hourly indications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
>>>>>> "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
>>>>>> (water driven, from an "infinite well")
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
>>>>>> current hour/minute.  :<  (if not genuine bowling balls, the
>>>>>> display is without value)
>>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
>>>>> seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
>>>>> learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
>>>>> with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
>>>>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
>>>>> usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
>>>> mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
>>>> calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
>>>> the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
>>>> which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
>>>> KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).
>>>
>>> It was a common "exercise", in school, to build counters out of
>>> "logic" made from discrete transistors, etc.  A multidecade
>>> counter would often resemble a large "waffle" -- layer upon
>>> layer of perf-board populated with discretes.  Almost more
>>> *mechanical* wonders than anything else (getting them to
>
> My "digital" (display only) clock was an apprentice project so had to be
> properly documented, which I have somewhere...
>
> IIRC the crystal (in a constant-temperature oven) ran at 200kHz. The
> first four decade division was done via four free-running transistor
> multivibrators with a modified circuit:
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R4xHYMQoU6KTfPpdgV4lmR5L0Z0uplcy/view?
> usp=sharing>
>
> Then there were several dekatrons. And the display neon lamps were lit
> via a diode matrix that encoded the digit shapes with the matrix input
> supplied by several Strowger-type (I think) pulse-driven relays
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strowger_switch>
>
> So nothing that could be considered digital or even real logic circuits!

Whoa. I would not have thought of such a division method, my instincts
are purely digital when it comes to that sort of things.
Of course at the time you did this (60-s?) I did not know what a
transistor was, my first attempts to put something together were
at the end of the 60-s/early 70-s. Back then my mom worked at a
shop for diplomats (real currency only, no Bulgarian) and they had
disposable wooden crates of Johnnie Walker... These were my source of
material to build things, I built a tape-recorder (player, rather,
recording never worked really) using spare parts I could buy
for the mechanics... Contributed a lot of noise to the neighbourhood,
I must have been 15. But I could not really design the preamp,
I just put together things from a book (some Russian book for
amateurs IIRC).

On 2/11/2022 12:48 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 2/11/2022 21:20, Don Y wrote:
>> On 2/11/2022 11:44 AM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>>> On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
>>>> In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.
>>>>>
>>>>> E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
>>>>> that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
>>>>> the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
>>>>> to see the emitted light!)
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
>>>>> the receiver. And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
>>>>> hourly indications.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
>>>>> "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
>>>>> (water driven, from an "infinite well")
>>>>>
>>>>> I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
>>>>> current hour/minute. :< (if not genuine bowling balls, the
>>>>> display is without value)
>>>>>
>>>> Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
>>>> seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
>>>> learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>
>>>>
>>>> I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
>>>> with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
>>>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
>>>> usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>
>>>>
>>>
>>> How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
>>> mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
>>> calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
>>> the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
>>> which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
>>> KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).
>>
>> It was a common "exercise", in school, to build counters out of
>> "logic" made from discrete transistors, etc. A multidecade
>> counter would often resemble a large "waffle" -- layer upon
>> layer of perf-board populated with discretes. Almost more
>> *mechanical* wonders than anything else (getting them to
>> stay together as an assembly that could be "handled")
>
> Well I can see that, I think I did that myself at some point
> (not sure if I built the counter or just read how it worked).
>
> I remember trying to make a reversible counter with 7400-s and
> it sort of worked (I was literally learning to walk); I wanted to
> synchronize an 8mm projector with a tape recorder, the counter
> was supposed to buffer the lag this or that way.
> IIRC by the time when I discovered the fact that the
> switches from both sensors must be debounced I had already
> been into other things... It was some learning exercise though.

As a young kid, I used relays (and score-motors) from pinball
machines to make "logic circuits". *Loud*! :>

In high school, graduated to "analog computers" (school district
didn't own a digital computer -- just a Wang programmable calculator)
which was ... interesting.

I much prefer being able to make really small devices and not have
to worry about burnishing contacts, switches, etc.

In article <su6tvt$cbj$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...
>
> Whoa. I would not have thought of such a division method, my instincts
> are purely digital when it comes to that sort of things.
> Of course at the time you did this (60-s?) I did not know what a
> transistor was, my first attempts to put something together were
> at the end of the 60-s/early 70-s. Back then my mom worked at a
> shop for diplomats (real currency only, no Bulgarian) and they had
> disposable wooden crates of Johnnie Walker... These were my source of
> material to build things, I built a tape-recorder (player, rather,
> recording never worked really) using spare parts I could buy
> for the mechanics... Contributed a lot of noise to the neighbourhood,
> I must have been 15. But I could not really design the preamp,
> I just put together things from a book (some Russian book for
> amateurs IIRC).

Yes, it was 1964. At the time my employer (International Computers and
Tabulators = ICT) was building commercial computers
(<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICT_1301>) from discrete transistors,
which I had a go at programming in the test bay.

There were interesting early Russian computers too...

On 11/02/2022 17:27, Don Y wrote:
> On 2/11/2022 2:08 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
>> In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
>> says...
>>>
>>> I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.
>>>
>>> E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
>>> that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
>>> the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
>>> to see the emitted light!)
>>>
>>> I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
>>> the receiver.  And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.
>>>
>>> I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
>>> hourly indications.
>>>
>>> And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
>>> "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
>>> (water driven, from an "infinite well")
>>>
>>> I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
>>> current hour/minute.  :<  (if not genuine bowling balls, the
>>> display is without value)
>>>
>> Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
>> seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
>> learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>
>
> I try to make "unique" pieces -- i.e., quantity 1 -- often as gifts.
> Purchasing something that you could likely find in someone else's
> home/office doesn't cut it.
>
> I like it if you can't figure out that you are "in the presence of"
> a timepiece.  Even moreso if you can't figure out how to tell
> time by it!
>
> (e.g., my sundial tells time at night, too!)

My favourite hyper modern sundial has a digital display made possible by
additive manufacturing. You can print it on a 3D printer. It has the
advantage of the classical sundials that adjustment for daylight saving
time is easy. Just rotate it by 15 degrees. eg

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1068443
(other brands are available)
>
> Lately, I am trying to make the *mechanism* "invisible".  E.g., the
> kinematic (Rube Goldberg) clock is driven by water power.  The
> *timekeeping*
> is accomplished by a servo controlling the speed of the pump -- with the
> loop having an incredible lag (so, the control is challenging, in addition
> to the mechanism design/fabrication).

I once made a fairly accurate water clock for a lecture demo as the
cylinder of revolution of a parabola cast in acrylic. If I had thought
about it a little more carefully I would have made a triangular
reservoir between two parallel sides instead (like the ancients did).

It beat calibrated candles hands down!
>
>> I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
>> with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
>> usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>
>

> Display mechanisms are hard enough (for me); tackling a *timekeeping*
> mechanism
> mechanically would just be a huge effort.  Kudos!  I'm clueless about
> how to
> design the sundial mechanism so it will survive "the elements" and still
> function, as intended!
>
> My first (electronic) clock (~1977) was a simple hack on a COTS NatSemi
> "clock
> chip":  demultiplexing the outputs to drive rings of 60 and 12 LEDs,
> respectively, for minutes and hour display (seconds was presented on the
> same
> ring as minutes to save on LEDs).

My dad built one from components mostly salvaged from scrap ICL1900
boards TI 74 series ICs with display drivers for the nixie tubes. It was
surprising compact although it ran a bit warm to leave on continuously.
I reckon it was probably in about 1972-3.
>
> A friend urged me to sell it -- completely missing the point that it was
> intended as a (unique) gift... for my future in-laws.  Some years later,
> he bought me a commercial version of a similar design -- no doubt to
> drive home the fact that *I* could have been manufacturing these.

My friend - a very keen amateur astronomer had a digital clock custom
built to keep sidereal time when digital LEDs first became available. It
even had internal battery backup so it could be moved. It was a bit
power hungry though. Had it been a couple of years later using CMOS and
LCD rather than TTL and LEDs it would have been a lot easier to use!

My own sidereal clock is based on a PIC 16877 which has just enough pins
to bare metal drive a 4 segment LCD display and runs off a standard
32768Hz watch crystal with digital adjustment to get the offset.

These days any mobile phone or tablet has an app to show you the sky,
satellite predictions and sidereal time so it is kind of redundant.

> It's fun to consider different ways of indicating the time that are easy to
> read (cuz you don't want to have to STUDY a display to sort out what it
> is indicating -- you just GLANCE at a typical clock!) and yet cryptic or
> aesthetically "appealing" in other ways.

If you like interesting time pieces the Corpus Clock in Cambridge UK on
King's Parade is well worth seeing. It is a Chronophage with a large
scale grasshopper escapement and a very unusual pendulum motion.

https://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/about/corpus-clock/introduction-corpus-clock

https://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/articles/secrets-corpus-clock

It is truly hypnotic to watch. Keeps perfect time but the pendulum
motion is not a regular amplitude and the display idiosyncratic.

There is a twin/cousin somewhere that was being made for the Chinese
market but the timing of the recession meant that it may not have been
completed. It's grasshopper escapement is in the form of a dragon.

It was designed by engineer Dr John Taylor best known as inventor of the
bimetallic kettle switch and various other interesting electromechanical
devices.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 11/02/22 18:44, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 2/11/2022 11:08, Mike Coon wrote:
>> In article <su40jt$299$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
>> says...
>>>
>>> I'm more interested in "presentation means" than in mechanisms.
>>>
>>> E.g., I have a clock that displays the time on an LED display
>>> that represents braille cells (the joke, of course, being that
>>> the typical person who would understand braille wouldn't be able
>>> to see the emitted light!)
>>>
>>> I have a dial telephone that announces the time when you lift
>>> the receiver.  And, "rings" when the alarm time arrives.
>>>
>>> I've drawn up a design for a sundial that has 24 equally spaced
>>> hourly indications.
>>>
>>> And, I'm stretching my imagination to come up with a suitable
>>> "Rube Goldberg" display/mechanism for a yard sculpture
>>> (water driven, from an "infinite well")
>>>
>>> I've yet to sort out how to levitate bowling balls to display the
>>> current hour/minute.  :<  (if not genuine bowling balls, the
>>> display is without value)
>>>
>> Ah, then you might be more interested than me in advertisements I keep
>> seeing for these products: <https://www.tarquingroup.com/home-
>> learning/equipment/mobius-strip-clock.html>
>>
>> I built my first mechanical clock in the 1950s and this electronic (but
>> with no digital circuitry) one in 1960s:
>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1kJlQ9ypjtLYllqUnljYTR2UHc/view?
>> usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-gAKldV-iwCQo3nMdjOUyDQ>
>>
>
> How on Earth did you build it with no digital circuitry? Or do you
> mean no 74xx etc., just transistors? I remember a table-top
> calculator (serially) built here in Bulgaria in the 60-s, it was
> the size of a largish typewriter (not as wide but much longer)
> which was built only on transistors, must have been a zillion
> KT315 inside (a popular Soviet transistor).

I have a a piece of Tektronix lab equipment which divides
by 5 using 3 transistors plus many simple passive components.

Basic principle is that a pulse deposits a glug of charge
on a capacitor. The fifth glug raises the voltage above a
threshold which causes the capacitor to be discharged and
a pulse delivered to the next stage.

That's sufficient to get a 5s period from a 10MHz oscillator.
To get the 2ns period, they use several frequency doublers
based on nuvistors, stray capacitance and bendable wires
forming coupled inductors.

FFI see the manual at https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/184

On 2/12/2022 2:33 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 11/02/2022 17:27, Don Y wrote:
>> I try to make "unique" pieces -- i.e., quantity 1 -- often as gifts.
>> Purchasing something that you could likely find in someone else's
>> home/office doesn't cut it.
>>
>> I like it if you can't figure out that you are "in the presence of"
>> a timepiece. Even moreso if you can't figure out how to tell
>> time by it!
>>
>> (e.g., my sundial tells time at night, too!)
>
> My favourite hyper modern sundial has a digital display made possible by
> additive manufacturing. You can print it on a 3D printer. It has the advantage
> of the classical sundials that adjustment for daylight saving time is easy.
> Just rotate it by 15 degrees. eg
>
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1068443
> (other brands are available)

Yeah, I saw that when I was researching sundial ideas. I settled on mine
because it handles "after sunset" operation. (the implied "joke")

>> Lately, I am trying to make the *mechanism* "invisible". E.g., the
>> kinematic (Rube Goldberg) clock is driven by water power. The *timekeeping*
>> is accomplished by a servo controlling the speed of the pump -- with the
>> loop having an incredible lag (so, the control is challenging, in addition
>> to the mechanism design/fabrication).
>
> I once made a fairly accurate water clock for a lecture demo as the cylinder of
> revolution of a parabola cast in acrylic. If I had thought about it a little
> more carefully I would have made a triangular reservoir between two parallel
> sides instead (like the ancients did).
>
> It beat calibrated candles hands down!

But the "mechanism" is fixed. A viewer wouldn't wonder how it is adjusted
to keep correct time.

E.g., in the kinematic display, the rate of water flowing is the obvious
calibration hook. But, you know an open-loop design just wouldn't work.
So, the puzzle is how/where the display's status is sensed and how that
is fed back to the pump (which obviously must exist to recirculate the
water)

For folks accustomed to designing loops, the interesting part would be the
huge lag in the loop and the inherent variability of the mechanism
(to wind, human intervention, etc.)

>> My first (electronic) clock (~1977) was a simple hack on a COTS NatSemi "clock
>> chip": demultiplexing the outputs to drive rings of 60 and 12 LEDs,
>> respectively, for minutes and hour display (seconds was presented on the same
>> ring as minutes to save on LEDs).
>
> My dad built one from components mostly salvaged from scrap ICL1900 boards TI
> 74 series ICs with display drivers for the nixie tubes. It was surprising
> compact although it ran a bit warm to leave on continuously. I reckon it was
> probably in about 1972-3.

I used TTL to convert from the multiplexed output of the clock chip
to my individual LEDs. Linear regulator so it got warm. Everything
wire-wrapped inside a Lexan case that I'd made to show off it's
internals.

Biggest mistake (lack of foresight) was (deliberately) painting the
back of the face black -- for a mirror-like finish. I hadn't considered\how
much of a PITA it would be to keep clean (fingerprints).

>> A friend urged me to sell it -- completely missing the point that it was
>> intended as a (unique) gift... for my future in-laws. Some years later,
>> he bought me a commercial version of a similar design -- no doubt to
>> drive home the fact that *I* could have been manufacturing these.
>
> My friend - a very keen amateur astronomer had a digital clock custom built to
> keep sidereal time when digital LEDs first became available. It even had
> internal battery backup so it could be moved. It was a bit power hungry though.
> Had it been a couple of years later using CMOS and LCD rather than TTL and LEDs
> it would have been a lot easier to use!

LCD displays are boring. I've thought of salvaging those electromechanical
displays that sort of resemble split-flap displays (often used for
sporting events to display times/scores VERY LARGE). But, they're
relatively noisey so you wouldn't want one indoors.

And, it would just be "yet another numeric display". <yawn>

> My own sidereal clock is based on a PIC 16877 which has just enough pins to
> bare metal drive a 4 segment LCD display and runs off a standard 32768Hz watch
> crystal with digital adjustment to get the offset.

In school, I had a motorized mini-spotlight that would project a spot across
the walls/ceiling as if an indoor sun. It was amusing to anyone who thought
about it because it mimicked the Sun's motion -- yet paid no respect to
the E-W orientation of its travel ("why does your Sun set in the North?")

[Designs should always mess with peoples' heads -- at different levels.
I have a rotary dial telephone -- that generates touch-tones. Simple
to make. But, a user encountering it wonders: why the hell would
you convert dial-pulses to touch tone instead of just using a pushbutton
keypad?]

> These days any mobile phone or tablet has an app to show you the sky, satellite
> predictions and sidereal time so it is kind of redundant.

Any "universal display" is boring. I recall seeing an app that has digits
melting into their successors ("Dali clock"). Make a *physical* display that
does that and I'll be impressed! But, writing a bit of code to sequence
an animation is not really inspiring.

>> It's fun to consider different ways of indicating the time that are easy to
>> read (cuz you don't want to have to STUDY a display to sort out what it
>> is indicating -- you just GLANCE at a typical clock!) and yet cryptic or
>> aesthetically "appealing" in other ways.
>
> If you like interesting time pieces the Corpus Clock in Cambridge UK on King's
> Parade is well worth seeing. It is a Chronophage with a large scale grasshopper
> escapement and a very unusual pendulum motion.
>
> https://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/about/corpus-clock/introduction-corpus-clock

Mechanical. Beyond my abilities. I've resigned myself to simply *designing*
my Rube Goldberg -- in CAD -- and requiring someone else to do the actual
fabrication. It's sort of a defeatist admission but I don't want to be
limited to what *I* can fabricate.

There are enough challenges in my "presentation choices" that I can feel
proud of the conceptualization, even if I can't put in the elbow grease
to fabricate all of the components.

[Ideally, I wouldn't want a new homeowner to consider it as "trash"
and move to disassemble it.]

> https://www.corpus.cam.ac.uk/articles/secrets-corpus-clock
>
> It is truly hypnotic to watch. Keeps perfect time but the pendulum motion is
> not a regular amplitude and the display idiosyncratic.
>
> There is a twin/cousin somewhere that was being made for the Chinese market but
> the timing of the recession meant that it may not have been completed. It's
> grasshopper escapement is in the form of a dragon.
>
> It was designed by engineer Dr John Taylor best known as inventor of the
> bimetallic kettle switch and various other interesting electromechanical devices.

In article <su8k2c$cbn$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
says...
> It's sort of a defeatist admission but I don't want to be
> limited to what *I* can fabricate.
>
> There are enough challenges in my "presentation choices" that I can feel
> proud of the conceptualization, even if I can't put in the elbow grease
> to fabricate all of the components.

I think of that as the approach of an architect...

On 2/12/2022 9:06 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
> In article <su8k2c$cbn$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
> says...
>> It's sort of a defeatist admission but I don't want to be
>> limited to what *I* can fabricate.
>>
>> There are enough challenges in my "presentation choices" that I can feel
>> proud of the conceptualization, even if I can't put in the elbow grease
>> to fabricate all of the components.
>
> I think of that as the approach of an architect...

Or any other "designer"/composer.

But, if that's your "norm", then you can rationalize never *doing*
anything -- just creating paper. Of course, that's the likely
role of a REAL "architect" as the resources and skillsets they
would need to erect a building would typically be beyond the
means of an *individual*.

That needn't be the case in *all* things!

I've a friend who used to grumble about folks who would *say*
"I'm remodeling my home" or "I'm putting on an addition" or
"I'm tuning up my car"... when, in fact, they were simply WRITING
CHECKS -- and someone ELSE was doing the actual work.

"Well, of course! That's what I *meant*" (but not what you said)

[Instead, describe these actions as "I'm HAVING SOMEONE remodel
my home" or "I'm HAVING SOMEONE put on an addition"... to draw
attention to the fact that you really aren't *doing* anything
beyond deciding that you're willing to pay for that activity!
"I've decided to have my house remodeled..."]

There's an element of pride in being able to say I *did*
this -- instead of "I paid someone else to do it for me"
(that is my lament over having to hire-out the fabrication
of the "Rube Goldberg") So, the design has to be heads
and shoulders above to minimize that aspect of the "job".

In article <su8nhj$35t$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
says...
>
> On 2/12/2022 9:06 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
> > In article <su8k2c$cbn$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
> > says...
> >> It's sort of a defeatist admission but I don't want to be
> >> limited to what *I* can fabricate.
> >>
> >> There are enough challenges in my "presentation choices" that I can feel
> >> proud of the conceptualization, even if I can't put in the elbow grease
> >> to fabricate all of the components.
> >
> > I think of that as the approach of an architect...
>
> Or any other "designer"/composer.
>
> But, if that's your "norm", then you can rationalize never *doing*
> anything -- just creating paper. Of course, that's the likely
> role of a REAL "architect" as the resources and skillsets they
> would need to erect a building would typically be beyond the
> means of an *individual*.
>
> That needn't be the case in *all* things!
>
> I've a friend who used to grumble about folks who would *say*
> "I'm remodeling my home" or "I'm putting on an addition" or
> "I'm tuning up my car"... when, in fact, they were simply WRITING
> CHECKS -- and someone ELSE was doing the actual work.
>
> "Well, of course! That's what I *meant*" (but not what you said)
>
> [Instead, describe these actions as "I'm HAVING SOMEONE remodel
> my home" or "I'm HAVING SOMEONE put on an addition"... to draw
> attention to the fact that you really aren't *doing* anything
> beyond deciding that you're willing to pay for that activity!
> "I've decided to have my house remodeled..."]
>
> There's an element of pride in being able to say I *did*
> this -- instead of "I paid someone else to do it for me"
> (that is my lament over having to hire-out the fabrication
> of the "Rube Goldberg") So, the design has to be heads
> and shoulders above to minimize that aspect of the "job".

The ultimate is probably a king who "built" a pyramid or a palace!

On 2/12/2022 3:00 PM, Mike Coon wrote:
>> There's an element of pride in being able to say I *did*
>> this -- instead of "I paid someone else to do it for me"
>> (that is my lament over having to hire-out the fabrication
>> of the "Rube Goldberg") So, the design has to be heads
>> and shoulders above to minimize that aspect of the "job".
>
> The ultimate is probably a king who "built" a pyramid or a palace!

I've found it pretty common in industry, too. Tales from friends
whose boss's claimed to have "done" something -- that, in fact,
*they* did. Always apparent when the boss is tasked with
explaining the solution and dons the deer-in-headlights look.

Oooops!