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tech / sci.physics.relativity / Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?

SubjectAuthor
* Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?mitchr...@gmail.com
`* Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?J. J. Lodder
 +- Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?Richard Hertz
 `* Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?mitchr...@gmail.com
  +* Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?J. J. Lodder
  |+- Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?mitchr...@gmail.com
  |`- Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?Maciej Wozniak
  `- Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?Richard Hertz

1
Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?

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Subject: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?
From: mitchrae...@gmail.com (mitchr...@gmail.com)
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 by: mitchr...@gmail.com - Mon, 9 May 2022 21:56 UTC

Why would you need more than one Cs atom and
how can you magnify it and count billions in a second?
Nothing about the atomic clock is real.

Mitchell Raemsch

Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 10:46:32 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Tue, 10 May 2022 08:46 UTC

mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why would you need more than one Cs atom and
> how can you magnify it and count billions in a second?
> Nothing about the atomic clock is real.

Yours is a common misunderstanding.
Atomic clocks do not 'measure' atoms to get time.
In reality an atomic clock is a stabilised quartz clock.
It will also go ticking on without any atoms to measure,
but it will drift in the long term.

Basically, a frequency synthesizer is used to build
the required resonant frequency from the basic frequency of the clock,
which is then compared to some atomic resonance,
to provide long-term stability. (by locking to it)
How many atoms are used, from one in a trap to a vapour cloud with many
is a merely matter of convenience and obtainable accuracy,

Jan

Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?

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Subject: Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Tue, 10 May 2022 17:09 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 5:46:35 AM UTC-3, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Why would you need more than one Cs atom and
> > how can you magnify it and count billions in a second?
> > Nothing about the atomic clock is real.
> Yours is a common misunderstanding.
> Atomic clocks do not 'measure' atoms to get time.
> In reality an atomic clock is a stabilised quartz clock.
> It will also go ticking on without any atoms to measure,
> but it will drift in the long term.
>
> Basically, a frequency synthesizer is used to build
> the required resonant frequency from the basic frequency of the clock,
> which is then compared to some atomic resonance,
> to provide long-term stability. (by locking to it)
> How many atoms are used, from one in a trap to a vapour cloud with many
> is a merely matter of convenience and obtainable accuracy,
>
> Jan

You can calculate the average number of cesium atoms used to phase-lock the OCXO at 10.0000 Mhz.
The excited atoms that shed photons at the photodetector (around 10 Ghz) produce a low frequency signal of
about 0.1 microamperes at the output of the photodetector.

Estimating an efficiency of 80% to convert photons to electrons, you can calculate the number of photons/sec
that are transitioning to a lower energy state. It only takes to calculate the number of electrons/sec in 0.1 uA.

Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?

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Subject: Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?
From: mitchrae...@gmail.com (mitchr...@gmail.com)
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 by: mitchr...@gmail.com - Tue, 10 May 2022 18:18 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 1:46:35 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Why would you need more than one Cs atom and
> > how can you magnify it and count billions in a second?
> > Nothing about the atomic clock is real.
> Yours is a common misunderstanding.
> Atomic clocks do not 'measure' atoms to get time.
> In reality an atomic clock is a stabilised quartz clock.
> It will also go ticking on without any atoms to measure,
> but it will drift in the long term.
>
> Basically, a frequency synthesizer is used to build
> the required resonant frequency from the basic frequency of the clock,
> which is then compared to some atomic resonance,
> to provide long-term stability. (by locking to it)
> How many atoms are used, from one in a trap to a vapour cloud with many
> is a merely matter of convenience and obtainable accuracy,
>
> Jan

If it drifts like you say it can't have obtainable accuracy Jan.

Mitchell Raemsch

Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?

<1prrdnc.h0r6vzbkt5y5N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 21:50:18 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Tue, 10 May 2022 19:50 UTC

mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 1:46:35 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Why would you need more than one Cs atom and
> > > how can you magnify it and count billions in a second?
> > > Nothing about the atomic clock is real.
> > Yours is a common misunderstanding.
> > Atomic clocks do not 'measure' atoms to get time.
> > In reality an atomic clock is a stabilised quartz clock.
> > It will also go ticking on without any atoms to measure,
> > but it will drift in the long term.
> >
> > Basically, a frequency synthesizer is used to build
> > the required resonant frequency from the basic frequency of the clock,
> > which is then compared to some atomic resonance,
> > to provide long-term stability. (by locking to it)
> > How many atoms are used, from one in a trap to a vapour cloud with many
> > is a merely matter of convenience and obtainable accuracy,
> >
> > Jan
>
> If it drifts like you say it can't have obtainable accuracy Jan.

All clocks drift. The question is by how much.

And yes, there is a point here.
Since absolute time doesn't exist
we can only see the relative drift between clocks.

We cannot exclude that there is a common and equal drift
of all atomic clocks together. (see previous thread)

Jan

Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?

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Subject: Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Tue, 10 May 2022 21:51 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 3:18:46 PM UTC-3, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 1:46:35 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Why would you need more than one Cs atom and
> > > how can you magnify it and count billions in a second?
> > > Nothing about the atomic clock is real.
> > Yours is a common misunderstanding.
> > Atomic clocks do not 'measure' atoms to get time.
> > In reality an atomic clock is a stabilised quartz clock.
> > It will also go ticking on without any atoms to measure,
> > but it will drift in the long term.
> >
> > Basically, a frequency synthesizer is used to build
> > the required resonant frequency from the basic frequency of the clock,
> > which is then compared to some atomic resonance,
> > to provide long-term stability. (by locking to it)
> > How many atoms are used, from one in a trap to a vapour cloud with many
> > is a merely matter of convenience and obtainable accuracy,
> >
> > Jan
> If it drifts like you say it can't have obtainable accuracy Jan.
>
> Mitchell Raemsch

It's not too difficult to understand!
Suppose that the following expression represent the output of an OCXO (Oven Controlled Crystal Oscilator):

S(t) = A sin Φ(t), where

Φ(t) = ω₀ t + n(t) , where n(t) is PHASE NOISE.

ω(t) = dΦ(t)/dt = ω₀ + dn(t)/dt (the frequency of the output signal at 10.0000 Mhz)

dn(t)/dt is the FREQUENCY NOISE of the output signal of the OCXO. The spectrum of this noise signal contains
every possible random value from f=0 to infinity. The component at very low frequencies, including f = 0, represent
the frequency DRIFT. The rest is random jitter.

The purpose of ANY atomic clock is to PHASE-LOCK Φ(t) to an atomic reference, either in the MW region or in optical frequencies.

If you are able to phase-lock the 10.0000 Mhz output to a much more stable reference, then you got stability and suppression of jitter.

That all what ANY atomic or optical clock does: obtaining stability by means of phase-locking an OCXO output to any stable reference.

If you got that, then ω(t) = dΦ(t)/dt approaches to a constant value, as Φ(t) doesn't drift or have phase-noise.

It's a matter of implementing the correct NEGATIVE FEEDBACK control loop. And this is a very complex thing.

Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?

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Subject: Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?
From: mitchrae...@gmail.com (mitchr...@gmail.com)
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 by: mitchr...@gmail.com - Wed, 11 May 2022 02:33 UTC

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 12:50:21 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 1:46:35 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Why would you need more than one Cs atom and
> > > > how can you magnify it and count billions in a second?
> > > > Nothing about the atomic clock is real.
> > > Yours is a common misunderstanding.
> > > Atomic clocks do not 'measure' atoms to get time.
> > > In reality an atomic clock is a stabilised quartz clock.
> > > It will also go ticking on without any atoms to measure,
> > > but it will drift in the long term.
> > >
> > > Basically, a frequency synthesizer is used to build
> > > the required resonant frequency from the basic frequency of the clock,
> > > which is then compared to some atomic resonance,
> > > to provide long-term stability. (by locking to it)
> > > How many atoms are used, from one in a trap to a vapour cloud with many
> > > is a merely matter of convenience and obtainable accuracy,
> > >
> > > Jan
> >
> > If it drifts like you say it can't have obtainable accuracy Jan.
> All clocks drift. The question is by how much.
>

Then you can't claim accuracy jany...

Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?

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Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 22:06:23 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Atomic clocks? How many Cs atoms are measured?
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Wed, 11 May 2022 05:06 UTC

On Tuesday, 10 May 2022 at 21:50:21 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 1:46:35 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > > mitchr...@gmail.com <mitchr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Why would you need more than one Cs atom and
> > > > how can you magnify it and count billions in a second?
> > > > Nothing about the atomic clock is real.
> > > Yours is a common misunderstanding.
> > > Atomic clocks do not 'measure' atoms to get time.
> > > In reality an atomic clock is a stabilised quartz clock.
> > > It will also go ticking on without any atoms to measure,
> > > but it will drift in the long term.
> > >
> > > Basically, a frequency synthesizer is used to build
> > > the required resonant frequency from the basic frequency of the clock,
> > > which is then compared to some atomic resonance,
> > > to provide long-term stability. (by locking to it)
> > > How many atoms are used, from one in a trap to a vapour cloud with many
> > > is a merely matter of convenience and obtainable accuracy,
> > >
> > > Jan
> >
> > If it drifts like you say it can't have obtainable accuracy Jan.
> All clocks drift. The question is by how much.
>
> And yes, there is a point here.
> Since absolute time doesn't exist

In the meantime in the real world, however, forbidden
by your idiotic religion GPS and TAI keep measuring t'=t,
just like all serious clocks always did.

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