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tech / sci.physics.relativity / [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)

SubjectAuthor
* [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)Richard Hachel
`* Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)Stan Fultoni
 `* Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)Richard Hachel
  `* Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)Stan Fultoni
   +* Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)Richard Hachel
   |`- Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)Stan Fultoni
   `- Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)Richard Hachel

1
[SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)

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From: r.hac...@tiscali.fr (Richard Hachel)
 by: Richard Hachel - Sat, 14 May 2022 08:24 UTC

How to resolve the problem of half trips.

<http://news2.nemoweb.net/jntp?TjiE_dhiOA3sOGoMgjX7yZneDUU@jntp/Data.Media:1>

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R.H.

--
"Mais ne nous trompons pas.
Il n'y a pas que de la violence avec des armes : il y a des situations de
violence."
Abbé Pierre.

Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)

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Subject: Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)
From: fultonis...@gmail.com (Stan Fultoni)
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 by: Stan Fultoni - Sat, 14 May 2022 08:32 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 1:25:00 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
> How...

Your claims are self-contradictory, because, for any three events e1,e2,e3 on a constantly accelerating path, where the accelerating clock reads the proper time values tau1,tau2,tau3, your claim is that

.. . tau2 - tau1 = sqrt[(t2-t1)^2 - (x2-x1)^2/c^2]
.. . tau3 - tau2 = sqrt[(t3-t2)^2 - (x3-x2)^2/c^2]
.. . tau3 - tau1 = sqrt[(t3-t1)^2 - (x3-x1)^2/c^2]

but these relations are self-contradictory, because

.. . (tau2-tau1) + (tau3-tau2) = (tau3-tau1)

and if you add the right sides of the first two expression, it does not equal the right side of the third expression unless the three events e1,e2,e3 are co-linear, meaning the accelerating path is not accelerating. This proves that your claims are self-contradictory.

Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)

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From: r.hac...@tiscali.fr (Richard Hachel)
 by: Richard Hachel - Sat, 14 May 2022 08:40 UTC

Le 14/05/2022 à 10:32, Stan Fultoni a écrit :
> On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 1:25:00 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
>> How...
>
> Your claims are self-contradictory, because, for any three events e1,e2,e3 on a
> constantly accelerating path, where the accelerating clock reads the proper time
> values tau1,tau2,tau3, your claim is that
>
> . . tau2 - tau1 = sqrt[(t2-t1)^2 - (x2-x1)^2/c^2]

Yes.

> . . tau3 - tau2 = sqrt[(t3-t2)^2 - (x3-x2)^2/c^2]

NOOOO!!!

> . . tau3 - tau1 = sqrt[(t3-t1)^2 - (x3-x1)^2/c^2]

Yes.

>
> but these relations are self-contradictory, because
>
> . . (tau2-tau1) + (tau3-tau2) = (tau3-tau1)

(tau2-tau1) + (tau3-tau2) = 2*(tau3-tau1)

It's not that your calculations aren't good, it's just that your
relativistic metric isn't the right one.

It's a bit like asking a sailor who goes around the world to calculate his
trips with a flat map.

The calculations will be good, but he will arrive anywhere believing he
has understood his calculations.

R.H.

Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)

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Subject: Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)
From: fultonis...@gmail.com (Stan Fultoni)
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 by: Stan Fultoni - Sat, 14 May 2022 09:14 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 1:40:05 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
> > Your claims are self-contradictory, because, for any three events e1,e2,e3 on a
> > constantly accelerating path, where the accelerating clock reads the proper time
> > values tau1,tau2,tau3, your claim is that
> >
> > . . tau2 - tau1 = sqrt[(t2-t1)^2 - (x2-x1)^2/c^2]
> Yes.
> > . . tau3 - tau2 = sqrt[(t3-t2)^2 - (x3-x2)^2/c^2]
> NOOOO!!!

You contradict yourself. You said
(1) The elapsed proper time along a uniform path (no acceleration) between two given events ei and ej is sqrt[(ti-tj)^2) - (xi-xj)^2)].
(2) The elapsed proper time along a path undergoing constant proper acceleration between two given events equals the elapsed proper time along an unaccelerated path between those two events.

These two statements signify that, for events e2 and e3, you claim
.. . tau3 - tau2 = sqrt[(t3-t2)^2 - (x3-x2)^2/c^2]

And this leads to contradiction. To avoid contradiction, you must reject either (1) or (2), or both. But you insist that both (1) and (2) are true, so your beliefs are self-contradictory.

Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)

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From: r.hac...@tiscali.fr (Richard Hachel)
 by: Richard Hachel - Sat, 14 May 2022 09:28 UTC

Le 14/05/2022 à 11:14, Stan Fultoni a écrit :
> You contradict yourself. You said
> (1) The elapsed proper time along a uniform path (no acceleration) between two
> given events ei and ej is sqrt[(ti-tj)^2) - (xi-xj)^2)].

I didn't say that exactly.

I said that the proper time between two given events is identical whether
one moves at constant speed or at uniformly accelerated speed.

We will therefore have, very surprisingly, Tr(constant)=Tr(accelerated).

This, yes.

> (2) The elapsed proper time along a path undergoing constant proper acceleration
> between two given events equals the elapsed proper time along an unaccelerated
> path between those two events.

Yes.
>
> These two statements signify that, for events e2 and e3, you claim
> . . tau3 - tau2 = sqrt[(t3-t2)^2 - (x3-x2)^2/c^2]

No, No, I'm not saying that. This equation is incorrect.

Here, tau3 - tau2 = (tau3 - tau1) - (tau2 - tau1) only true.


> And this leads to contradiction. To avoid contradiction, you must reject either
> (1) or (2), or both. But you insist that both (1) and (2) are true, so your
> beliefs are self-contradictory.

You are using a concept that is not correct for an E2-E3 event that does
not have a start point at E1.

That's why it doesn't work anymore.

It's a bit like adding a carrot and a turnip.

R.H.

Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)

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From: r.hac...@tiscali.fr (Richard Hachel)
 by: Richard Hachel - Sat, 14 May 2022 09:41 UTC

Le 14/05/2022 à 11:14, Stan Fultoni a écrit :

> . . tau3 - tau2 = sqrt[(t3-t2)^2 - (x3-x2)^2/c^2]

C'est ça qui n'est pas correct.

La mathématique peut paraître bonne, mais l'espace-temps n'est pas fait
comme ça.

Vous comprenez mon grief?

Vous partez de l'hypothèse d'un espace-temps particulier, espace-temps
utilisé depuis des décennies,
et qui marche "à peu-près".

Sauf qu'en y regardant de plus près des trucs clochent (comme ceux que
j'ai dénoncé depuis bientôt dix ans
dans le "Voyageur de Langevin en mode vitesses apparentes, et qui
conduisent à une absurdité totale si on n'applique pas MA métrique : il
est absolument impossible de concilier une vitesse apparente de 4c par
exemple avec une contraction des distance de 7.2al).

Toute cette folie humaine est bête à pleurer, car elle se teinte d'une
arrogance terrible : "Il est hors de question que ce connard d'Hachel,
avec son doctorat de merde, et ses trois prix Nobel viennent nous faire
chier".

C'est juste ça. "Hachel est un gros con, de l amerde, il est impossible
qu'une telle pourriture puisse nous apprendre quelque chose. Nous n'avons
pour Dieu qu'Einstein et Hawkins".

De telles comportements imbéciles devrait vous faire pleurer tout haut
comme des ânes.

Je le répète, VOTRE métrique n'est pas bonne.

C'est pas que vos mathématiques soient mauvais. C'est pas que vos
intégrations soient fausses, vos racines carrées mal calculées. Ca ne
vient pas de là!

C'est que votre métrique n'est PAS BONNE.

Votre intervalle espace-temps, je ne le comprends pas! Votre contraction
des distances et dilatation des temps, je ne la comprends pas!

Je vous SUPPLIE de comprendre que ce n'est pas parce que je suis bête
que je ne les comprends pas!

Je vous supplie de comprendre ça.

R.H.

________________________________________________________________________________

Traduction:

That is what is not correct.

The math may look good, but space-time isn't made that way.

Do you understand my grievance?

You start from the hypothesis of a particular space-time, space-time used
for decades,
and which works "almost".

Except that on closer inspection some things go wrong (like the ones I've
denounced for nearly ten years
in Langevin's "Voyageur in apparent speed mode, and which lead to total
absurdity if we do not apply MA metric: it is absolutely impossible to
reconcile an apparent speed of 4c for example with a contraction of the
distance of 7.2 ly).

All this human madness is silly to cry, because it is tinged with a
terrible arrogance: "It is out of the question that this asshole Hachel,
with his shitty doctorate, and his three Nobel prizes come to piss us
off".

That's just it. "Hachel is a big jerk, shit, it's impossible that such
rottenness can teach us anything. We only have Einstein and Hawkins for
God".

Such foolish behavior should make you cry out loud like donkeys.

I repeat, YOUR metric is not good.

It's not that your math is bad. It's not that your integrations are
wrong, your square roots miscalculated. It does not come from there!

It's that your metric is NOT GOOD.

Your space-time interval, I don't understand it! Your contraction of
distances and dilation of time, I don't understand it!

I BEG YOU to understand that it is not because I am stupid that I do not
understand them!

I beg you to understand this.

R.H.

Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)

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Subject: Re: [SR] The traveler of Tau Ceti (in half trips)
From: fultonis...@gmail.com (Stan Fultoni)
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 by: Stan Fultoni - Sat, 14 May 2022 15:20 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 2:29:00 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
> > You contradict yourself. You said
> > (1) The elapsed proper time along a uniform path (no acceleration) between two
> > given events ei and ej is sqrt[(ti-tj)^2) - (xi-xj)^2)].
>
> I didn't say that exactly.

That is a lie. Remember, I said "Your first claim (1) is true, but your second claim (2) is false. Agreed?", and you replied:

> No. Both are true.

So, you now agree that what you have been claiming up to today has been self-contradictory, and you are now changing your claim in an attempt to avoid the self-contradiction. I accept your sincere thanks for pointing out your error.

Your new claim is that the elapsed proper time along a uniform path (no acceleration) between two given events ei and ej is NOT given by sqrt[(ti-tj)^2) - (xi-xj)^2)]. This is important progress, because we see now that your disagreement with science has nothing to do with acceleration. You disagree with science on the elapsed proper time for uniform unaccelerated paths..

So, your first task is to specify what you believe is the elapsed proper time along a uniform, unaccelerated, time-like path from a specified event with coordinates xi,ti to another specified event xj,tj in terms of any given system of inertial coordinates.

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